PDA

View Full Version : JAA/FAA Logbook


capt123
28th Aug 2011, 11:45
Hello everybody!

I would verh much like yo hear your opinion regarding flight time records (logbooks). 

I have just obtained my FAA licence -  in addition to my JAA licence. I intend to use my FAA licence only for private flying in US (as opposed to my airline job here in Europe). That means I would log approximately 10 or 20 hours a year with my FAA licence and a much larger sum with my JAA licence. 


My question is whether I should keep separate logbook for "FAA-flying" and one for "JAA-flying" or am I allowed to keep my existing logbook for all my flights. I know that nobody here in Europe normally cares (I mean the CAA people) what you have in your logbook but I have no experience with the FAA. Do they require that you keep your logbook in FAA format or would they be happy with my existing JAA-format logbook as well?

Thank you very much for your opinions/comments/etc. 

Regards,

AC :cool:

WILCO.XMG
28th Aug 2011, 11:51
Im no expert but i'd imagine one is for N Reg FAA Aircraft and the other for all EASA/JAA Aircraft.

But i'm no expert.

AdamFrisch
28th Aug 2011, 12:06
Anything goes. You can log your hours on a napkin if you want - there are no requirements from the FAA as far as I know. I log both my JAA and FAA in the same book just to make it easier for myself. There are subtle differences in PIC/SIC time and XCountry, but nothing one can't easily work into the same book.

Genghis the Engineer
28th Aug 2011, 14:03
I agree with Adam. I do much as you've described and a single logbook with two licenses has never given me a problem.

G

mad_jock
28th Aug 2011, 14:56
I personally would keep them seperate.

FAA instructors in my limited experence have a nasty habit of writing all over the bloody thing. It is apparently there right!!

And apart from that if your main log book goes missing in tranist your a bit stumped.

I would transfer a page into a cheapo log book then use that to get your FAA stuff put in then transfer the hours back into your main log book when you get home. Saves having scribbles in your pro log book for interviews.

S-Works
28th Aug 2011, 19:33
I used to have two seperate logbooks many years ago. These days I just keep everything in one, that is work flying and private flying regardless of registration.

Sam Rutherford
29th Aug 2011, 07:30
I use the "ASA International Pilots Log" (I actually run two 'identical' logbooks in case I lose one), but this one is compact and has enough columns to separate most of the figures you might need at any time.

Cheers, Sam.

BackPacker
29th Aug 2011, 08:20
Everything in one book I'd say. For me, that means both powered and unpowered flying.

As others have said, there's a requirement to log the hours in some detail, but there's no hard and strict rule about where and how to log it. As long as you are able to reproduce your flying history in sufficient detail, anything goes.

And let's be honest. Some of the experience you gain while flying on your FAA license will count towards currency on your JAA license, or the other way around. By having the record of that experience spread out over two books, with one of those sitting at home on a different continent, you might have a hard time proving that experience.

For instance your "three landings in the last 90 days" is not specifically restricted to a license/country/aircraft registration. (Although it might be restricted to an airplane class/type - I'm not quite sure about that one.)


Saves having scribbles in your pro log book for interviews.
I wonder if that is a bad thing. I'm a neat guy and even make sure all my logbook entries are in black pen, not in another color. But I have also heard of people who really "personalize" their logbook, using up multiple lines to record noteworthy flights, adding photos and other memorabilia. As long as it doesn't become too 13-year-old-girlish, at least it gives you something more to talk about during the airline interview. And it shows that you've actually enjoyed flying different types in different circumstances, rather than just having done hour-building for the sake of getting the hours in the logbook.

mad_jock
29th Aug 2011, 08:41
For instance your "three landings in the last 90 days" is not specifically restricted to a license/country/aircraft registration. (Although it might be restricted to an airplane class/type - I'm not quite sure about that one.)

Its in the type or class ie 3 landing in an Airbus doesn't do anything for your SEP currency.

I wonder if that is a bad thing

I have had to "clean" 3 peoples log books of CFI's opinions on the pilot. If they had been left in they wouldn't have had a hope in hell of getting a job when a CP saw them.

All three of them now have commercial jobs in fact one of them is up for a LHS on a 777 in the very near future.

Its not the case of running two log books its just that you run a FAA one and transfer the hours into your main one at a later date. I know 2 people who have lost there log books and its something I never want to go through myself

Genghis the Engineer
29th Aug 2011, 22:28
Just a thought - I most certainly do not travel with my paper logbook, which is locked in my office and gets copied up into every week or three.

I travel with my USB drive, which contains my electronic logbook. My last FAA checkride, I made the entry in their sight and they provided me with stickers for my paper logbook with their comments.

Since the comments were essentially "satisfactory BFR, qualified high performance singles" it went straight in once I was home. If they'd decided to be more, err, eloquent then I could have elected to only include the legal minimum wording in my "catch all" paper logbook. I can't offhand see anything wrong in this - certainly no worse than Mad Jock's helpful actions.

G

172_driver
29th Aug 2011, 22:54
I put all hours in the same book. If you do, make sure to log everything as directed by JAR-FCL. FAA has some weird ideas on for example PIC time. Also you need to log block-on/off in UTC, columns you don't even find in some FAA tailored books.

englishal
29th Aug 2011, 23:50
One logbook, never logged a block on/block off time in my 11 years of flying and no one gives a toss.;)

Maoraigh1
30th Aug 2011, 21:05
One logbook, photocopied from time to time in case it gets lost. Before retiral I kept the copy at work. I've never had a US instructor write anything in my logbook except the Biennial Review/check out details and his name and number.
I doubt I'd be able to rent anything in October if my logbook showed no flying since September 2010, and less than 250 hours since 1987.

IO540
30th Aug 2011, 21:25
I use one logbook for all.

The only "good" reason I have come across for two logbooks was where somebody was doing some illegal flying (basically, flying RHS in an MCC jet but without a TR and without an SIC, and doing it outside the USA) and he put those hours into a special logbook :)

The fact that under FAA rules one can log time one could not log under JAA rules means little in practice because almost no non-JAA time is allowable against any JAA license or rating anyway. The 100hr PPL conversion route is the one exception I can think of. And in any case if you were to utilise any past hours towards something, the person doing the logbook examination will check all applicable entries.

Genghis the Engineer
31st Aug 2011, 08:12
What you may want to do is have separate columns (a good reason for a chunky commercial logbook) for different things that matter.

For example, in JAAland there is a "complex" differences, and in FAAland there's a "high performance" differences. I have columns for each in my logbook - only one matters either side of the Atlantic.

G

IO540
31st Aug 2011, 08:29
IMHO one needs to be aware of what type of flying one is trying to accumulate for some specific purpose.

For example, up to some years ago I used a standard CAA (Pooleys I think) logbook and when I went for the FAA CPL I had to go right through it and pick out all "cross country" flights i.e. ones with a GC distance over 50nm. This took a while (well, I mainly just picked out the really obvious ones like UK to Italy) and would have been quicker had I logged them separately at the time, which I have been doing since.

If there is no such likely future requirement then it hardly matters how you log it.

Once you have a certain set of papers then it becomes completely irrelevant what you log and how. I suppose you have to log your JAA PPL hours... enough to show you have done 12 in the last 2 years.

Genghis the Engineer
31st Aug 2011, 10:05
I agree with you IO540, and that does make another good case for use of electronic logbooks - particularly running your own logbook in something like Excel that gives you good ability to change/tweak it as you meet new information requirements.

G

BackPacker
31st Aug 2011, 10:22
new information requirements.

The thing is, you generally don't know in advance what sort of summary/cumulative information is required. IO was confonted by having to tally up XC flights of more than 50 nm, which he never anticipated. With the EASA Aerobatics rating coming in, some of us will be confronted with having to tally up our aerobatics time, which we never anticipated. Who knows, in a few years time there may be a requirement to tally up the flight time we have in complex, tailwheel, or for that matter, purple aircraft? Are you going to go back through dozens (or 100s for some of us) of pages of logbook, adding and filling a "purple" column then?

I find it easiest just to record the basics of each flight, such as date/time, callsign, type, aircraft class and pilot function, plus a short note on what I did/who flew with me. And when the time comes to prove I meet some specific experience requirement, I just tally up the relevant flights right there and then. I'm not going to keep a running total of every potential experience point just in case.

IO540
31st Aug 2011, 10:40
I am not aware of any past requirement where you are required to add up the total figure for a particular kind of flying.

What you sometimes have to do is add up enough flights to show that you have done more than a certain figure.

Say you need 100 hrs cross country time, or whatever. So you just go back in your logbook until you have dug up say 110 hours, and put that on the application form for whatever piece of paper you are applying for. I cannot see any possibility of a prosecution based on you having more XC time than you declared on the app form :)

mad_jock
31st Aug 2011, 11:13
Come on the poster is a commercial pilot in europe he is proberly going to be doing 40-120 sectors per month.

He wants to go fun flying while on holiday in the states.

He really doesn't want to let his proffessional log book go missing in action because its a whole heap of a PIA and looks a bit dodgy if he wants to apply for more jobs. (witterings by a CFI outstanding)

Having a separate small log book with everything in it to allow him to comply with FAA rules which doesn't really matter if it goes missing is by far the way forward. The ins and out of what he has done doesn't really matter because I presume that he only wants to go flying while on holiday and a FAA ppl is more than enough. If he wants to keep his SEP valid in the UK he can transfer the hours into his pro log book when he gets back home and use his LPC as his flight with an instructor. Its not as if he will be doing 50 hours of hour building when he is in the US.

A pro log book is a completely different beast to private in the grand scheme of things it can mean the difference of getting a job and not getting a job. If there is any hint of fiddling or issues and someone else will get chosen. Its a bit like the service history on a car.

proudprivate
31st Aug 2011, 13:03
1 Main Logbook (in his case JAA), containing all the flights that he does / has done.

1 Electronic Master Logbook (Excel ?) for back up and calcs verification (how many hours in a tetrahedron; how many in pink underwear; etc...) and with worksheets parsed to any format (JAA, FAA, CASA, DGCA) needed

1 Secondary Logbook (in his case FAA), containing all the flights he has done as print outs, but signed by him and containing FAA specific endorsements where necessary.



I would advise against multiple log books that cover the same timeframe yet different "authority" flying. It quickly becomes a mess.

Genghis the Engineer
31st Aug 2011, 13:14
1 Main Logbook (in his case JAA), containing all the flights that he does / has done.

1 Electronic Master Logbook (Excel ?) for back up and calcs verification (how many hours in a tetrahedron; how many in pink underwear; etc...) and with worksheets parsed to any format (JAA, FAA, CASA, DGCA) needed

1 Secondary Logbook (in his case FAA), containing all the flights he has done as print outs, but signed by him and containing FAA specific endorsements where necessary.



I would advise against multiple log books that cover the same timeframe yet different "authority" flying. It quickly becomes a mess.


More or less what I do.

I have a Pooleys Commercial logbook which is my master-master

I have an Excel logbook, written by myself, which is my working / calculation master. I've learned that if a new requirements comes along - hours on pre-1960 taildraggers, or cross country hours beyond 50nm, I can generally extract what I need from my 1200hrs with half an hour's playing. Originally populating and setting it up mind you, was a very big job.

And when I need to provide a logbook for any particular reason (say a licence modification to the CAA), I create a printout from the Excel master and certify by hand the first and last pages. To date, that has always been accepted by everybody. And when that printout has served its useful function, everything gets transferred to the other two masters, and the printout gets shredded.

G