Another hike in APD

[crewmeal]

Yet again the greedy politicians are looking at trying to balance their books by increasing APD. Do they not realise if they continue to tax more and more, then less and less people will fly. It's ok for them swanning around the world in Business Class at the tax payers expense.

APD could increase because less people are flying : Heathrow Airport News Stories (http://www.uk-airport-news.info/heathrow-airport-news-270811.html)

[adfly]

And how is increasing a tax which has put many off flying meant to get more people flying? More APD = Less passengers.

[John21UK]

Absolutely right. Look what happens now at AMS. The introduction of the 'enviromental tax' forced a sharp dive in passenger numbers. Then the tax was abollished and in july AMS had it's record month in terms of passenger numbers/movements. As a result the Dutch O&D market has grown by as much of 9.7%.

AMS may now jump MAD and move back into the 4th spot in the European airport listing for passengers/year in 2011.

[jabird]

And how is increasing a tax which has put many off flying meant to get more people flying? More APD = Less passengers.

That depends on the government's motives. There are two strong reasons why the government might want less people to fly:


Reduce pollution.

Stop tourism spend leaking abroad.


I don't like the way APD taxes domestic travel twice, nor do I pretend for one minute that money collected in the name of the environment is going towards protection measures, but the fact is that airline passengers are easy prey.

[crewmeal]

nor do I pretend for one minute that money collected in the name of the environment is going towards protection measures, but the fact is that airline passengers are easy prey.

Same with car tax. If that tax went on the UK's roads they would be the best in the world.

Stop tourism spend leaking abroad

I would say it would slow down tourism altogether and put people off coming to the UK. I know my family have been put off flying to the UK from Australia because of the ridiculous taxes imposed. In this case the cost of the taxes for 4 people would be another seat for them after breaking down the fares.

[apaul]

For most incoming tourists the low value of the pound will more than offset the cost of APD. You can argue about the particular form of APD, but as other forms of transport are taxed why should aviation be an exception? It shouldn't, especially as the government has to deal with a budget deficit.

[JobsaGoodun]

You can argue about the particular form of APD, but as other forms of transport are taxed why should aviation be an exception? It shouldn't, especially as the government has to deal with a budget deficit.

Aviation is a form of public transport that sees no subsidies from the UK taxpayer. Unlike our UK rail and bus systems which spend us a significant sum of our tax pounds every year, aviation is self sufficient but is taxed even further.

We'll never get away from not taxing aviation but it needs to be fairer. Traveling UK-EU you get taxed once by the UK government, traveling domestic, you get taxed twice and yet it is domestic travel that helps to keep money within our own economy instead of leaking abroad. In many cases, it is already cheaper (and for many outside of London), just as convenient to take a short flight to AMS or CDG before heading off long haul around the world, and for everyone that does that, they are avoiding paying the ridiculous long haul taxes for flying ex LHR. If the UK government aren't careful, they will simply strengthen the likes of AF/KLM and LH at the detriment of BA.

I appreciate that this is quite a simplistic view and welcome some balanced views to counter my own.

[ncleflights]

apaul - what a load of rubbish. The pound has risen recently against both the dollar and euro. Also if your an overseas family looking for example coming to Europe on holiday are the four of you going to go to Paris or London and pay APD. You are of course going to go to France and save a fortune. Your argument just does not stand scrutiny, me thinks its time you renew your tory party membership.

Hang on we must be getting plenty of revenue from the Camerons as good old Dave has had 5 holidays this year while most hard working families struggle to have one. Perhaps thats the plan behind APD keep the airports empty so Tory ministers can have them all to themselves - get a grip!!!

[apaul]

ncleflights, I am afraid it is you whose 'arguments' do not make sense. The level of the pound is still 20% lower against the dollar and the euro compared to 2008. The devaluation against the Australian dollar is even greater. As for the party political diatribe, do you really think there is much difference between the two main parties on APD? Have you forgotten who introduced the tax and most of the increases?

[jabird]

Your argument just does not stand scrutiny, me thinks its time you renew your tory party membership.

For the record, APD was introduced by Ken Clark, iirc at £5 per sector, then rapidly up to £10. Gordon Brown initially brought it back down to £5, where it stayed as long as he was chancellor. Darling then doubled it, and made sure anyone with existing bookings would also pay the increased rate. This wasn't just about desparation to raise cash, it was an act of deliberate vengeance against air passengers. The tories have carried on where Labour left off.

I don't mind if our politicians take well deserved holidays, but I do mind when they lecture us about taking the train, but fly or drive everywhere themselves. My previous MP was a case in point - grinning photo for the local paper as he trained it off to London. When I asked him about his travel in a FOIA few years later, he said he spent just £200 per year on train tickets!

[jabird]

Aviation is a form of public transport that sees no subsidies from the UK taxpayer.

Not entirely true. There are numerous PSO routes in Scotland, not to mention CWL - EGO. Scottish highland routes are also exempt from APD.

BHX has just had £16m handed to it for its pointless runway extension.

Then there is the 'argument' used by the likes of FoE that the aviation industry is actually 'subsidised' to the tune of £10bn per year. Now I don't buy this argument at all, but it goes along the lines of:

No tax on aviation fuel (whereas car fuel is taxed to death) +
No VAT on airline tickets (whereas hotel stays and almost all leisure products are subject to VAT) +
No payment to cover the 'social cost' of flying +
Duty free 'tax avoidance' +
No VAT on new aircraft.

Now the last one is particularly daft - any accountant will tell you that airlines would just claim the VAT back, and even if the government could levy a fee on new aircraft (import duty on Boeing?) - that would be totally self-defeating on environmental grounds.

[ncleflights]

apaul - yes I do know who introduced APD its was, as has already been mentioned, Ken Clark - a tory minister in John Majors government.

[Facelookbovvered]

Cars, Trains and public transport by and large operate within national boarder, clearly aircraft do not, so trying to get a level playing field for these very different forms of transport is a non starter, if they tax aviation fuel in the UK, then airlines tanker in, increasing fuel burn and cost and Co2 emission's as a result, in other words the opposite of the intended ( if you believe that it's for green purposes that is )

APD is a dogs dinner, the previous government ramp up of duty in to the future was just a very lazy attempt to balance the books knowing that they were unlikely to have to answer for it from the opposition benches, that does not excuse the current administration, who will by the time of this Autumns review have been in charge for 18 months. It is set to rise to £12.00 a sector within the UK from November, i can't see any chance of this getting culled given the state of the Government finances.

We have a large and successful aviation industry in the UK from the likes of RR & Airbus right the way through to specialist support services, this creates and supports 100's of thousands of jobs, we should by now have had 5000+ people working on R3 at LHR, instead we are seeing services cut that provide important links to the regions from LHR as airlines and BAA seek to grow revenues by filling the place with 380,747, & 777, within a year its very likely that only BA will fly into LHR from anywhere in the UK mainland, there are far more services to AMS & CDG from the regions that there are to LHR, that the same applies to Dubai says it all.

It is not the job of Government to set tariff's of air taxes in international air space or where we should choose to fly to, but the banding system does just that and it discriminates against people on low or modest incomes, for whom a visit to Australia to see the grandchildren is beyond their reach.

APD should be set as a flat rate on all flights departing UK airspace at £10 irrespective of class of travel or destination and Scotland & Northern Ireland should be allowed to set their own rates in respect of travel to and from England (Wale's is irrelevant in this respect because it has few if any domestic service and PSO routes should be exempt) NI & Scotland should not have international charge rights ceded to them in order to avoid them manipulating the charges for gain over the England who subsidise both economies anyway, we don't want shafting twice!!