Close formation flying in cloud

[Pom pom]

I'm a humble GA pilot and have a question for you military chaps and chappesses. Looking up at a very miserable sky today I heard then saw two Tucano aircraft in close formation - wing tips overlapping. I'm guessing there may have been a bit more separation vertically, but it didn't look much (they were not very high, and as they departed I got more of a view from behind rather than from vertically below). The two were scudding along the cloud base, entering then breaking cloud every few seconds.

My question :

How does the following aircraft keep station when in cloud? I've flown through cloud (legally!), but only ever by myself (at least I hope there was no-one close by!), so I have no real idea of levels of visibility of a nearby object. Is it like terrestial fog or is some cloud more 'dense' than other, visually speaking? Or do you guys use strobes for reference? (I didn't notice either of the Tucanoes had them on).

Please excuse me if I'm being dense; just curious.

Cheers, Pom Pom.

PS RIP Red 4. (Was chatting to members of the team and maintenance crew at Exeter a couple of months ago - without exception, true ladies and gentlemen). I salute you all.

[Arm out the window]

It's just like fog, some thick, some thin - same stuff, of course.

Visibility can vary quite a bit, so sometimes form in cloud is straightforward and other times you're staring intently and seeing bits of the leading aircraft fade in and out of view, hoping it doesn't disappear entirely.

On that note, you have a lost contact procedure which will involve some kind of positive break away (a turn, climb or whatever's appropriate for your position in the formation) and then heading / height separation established so you can operate singly.

The formation flying procedure is the same in that you look at the same cues and do the same things with your hands and feet, but wingmen can easily get a case of 'the leans', particularly if punching in and out of cloud and getting glimpses of the ground in your peripheral vision.

Aircraft with radar / useful air-to-air aids can use that to be close to others in cloud, but I've never been lucky enough to have gadgetry that could do it so I can't comment on the specifics!

[NigelOnDraft]

Provided the Formation was 3 or 2, the wingmen can drop back & down a little, and close in - this puts more of the lead aircraft closer / easier to see. Useful in 'thicker' cloud. However, I do not recall a "break out" in my time for "cloud too thick" :(

NoD

[Edmund Spencer]

Can get a bit tricky on a black night in thick cloud with bad formation lights. (SHAR FRS1)
ES

[Fareastdriver]

You can do a pairs ILS approach into Gatwick IMC with two Sikorsky S76s as well.

[Pom pom]

Thank you for your responses.

Arm ... : Some things I hadn't thought of. Thanks.

Vigilant Pilot : What does A-Level mean in this context? (They didn't do formation flying in my sixth-form!)

Nigel On Draft : I can see the sense in getting closer (within reason!), but is the exercise trickier with a prop, or not THAT close? - I'm thinking of momentum changes etc.

Edmund Spenser : Wow! I'm guessing the speed range of the Harrier makes it even more challenging, and thrust vectoring (air disturbance)/ back of drag curve?

[L J R]

I do not recall a "break out" in my time for "cloud too thick"

...unfortunately, I have, and Arm out The Window's advice is applied.....quickly I might add....following the realisation that the 'imaginary' image you are now looking at and formating on is actually not there...and I may have been 'IN' for a little longer that I should!....

I learned about flying from that.!

[BOAC]

PP - having flown in and out of cloud in formations from 2 to 10 aircraft, including at the top of loops, probably around 98% of the time the cloud is 'thin' enough to see the target aircraft clearly. The problem becomes significant in large formations for the planes further removed from the leader and it is not unusual for some of these to be 'spat out' of the formation (and heated debriefs to take place:)).

To sum up, generally not a problem, and NO - strobes not encouraged.

[SpazSinbad]

Kiwi Skyhawks going same way same day in cloud:

Photos: McDonnell Douglas A-4K Skyhawk Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/open.file/0728275/L/)

[sycamore]

If you try U-TOOB,look for` Lima Lima flight ILS approach`; there also maybe a video on Ppune taken by Ned 2,of the Skyhawks really in the `soup`..

[Pom pom]

Mmm...

Methinks another aviation piggy bank is required labelled "formation flying course at Ultimate High". Probably have to wait till next year, but will do it.

Still not sure what "A-Level" means - is it military stuff? Doogle no good, so please, give-us-a-clue! :confused:

Cheers, PP

[Monty77]

Amateurs.

Overtaking another fast jet formation over Central, yes, that's Central London readers, IMC.

If you're going to cock it up, do it properly.

Luckily, nobody clapped wings.

Some people reading this will know/remember.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

A level is an exam metaphor meaning difficult, i.e harder than GCSE or standard procedures; possibly dates back to when standard entry requirement for mil pilots was just O levels.

In cloud, anti-cols off and nav lights to steady (not flash) was usual.

Also quite hard was formating on another aircraft type.

On fast jets, you might have had to do a rapid join from a tactical formation, followed immediately on joining formation by a low level abort into cloud for obstacle clearance. This was guaranteed to cause severe disorientation for the formating pilot(s). An important part of instrument flying training was to desensitise you to this disorientation. You got used to it.

[Spurlash2]

When you know how to; it's easy to.

http://i225.photobucket.com/albums/dd247/spurlash2/IMC%20Formation/IMCFormationresize.jpg

[BOAC]

Indeed it was, but I used to regularly bump into them....................

[SpazSinbad]

Lima Lima Flight Team 3-Ship ILS Approach

Lima Lima Flight Team 3-Ship ILS Approach - YouTube

Must be an American, Kiwi or former RAN FAA SOP to keep the anti-col on (daytime) but it could always be extinguished on request. Night is different though.

[jpboy]

If I was in Vic and the leader landed that far over to the left I'd be having a word in the bar afterwards. Guess their SOP's might be different and No3 dropped back on getting visual below?

[Geehovah]

Like you I'm now just a humble GA pilot and during my flying days sat in the "boot". I had to add the caveat to avoid the banter from the pilots on the Forum.

A picture always helps. In the Falklands we intercepted the Tristar as it approached the islands . Some of the cloud down there could be quite thick and this short clip is fairly typical. You can see the differing density as the Tristar drops into the tops. It disappears for a short while but reappears quite quickly. At that point, the lead pilot needs to be predictable and hold a steady heading. A turn towards could be instantly dramatic whereas a turn away would be a guaranteed lost contact. In formation with a like type there were known formation references which made life easier (in the F4 it was trailing light on the wing tip lined up with the blowhole and stab tips squared off). Formating on an unfamiliar type normally meant that the formation position was looser so losing contact was a greater risk.

Like others, it was rare to have to break out but we probably got more nervous in the back than the guys in the front. More than a healthy few seconds of lost contact caused a certain "pucker factor"! In an aircraft fitted with an AI radar it really wasn't worth the risk if the other aircraft disappeared. Turn away, time the diverging heading, turn back and lock up on radar. Once in trail, you could close back in using a visident profile or just stay behind about a mile astern.

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/Aircraft/UK%20Tornado%20F3%20Videos/th_Tristar.jpg (http://smg.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/Aircraft/UK%20Tornado%20F3%20Videos/?action=view&current=Tristar.mp4)

[BEagle]

SpazSinbad, I thought that this thread was discussing close formation, not that gash 'same way same day' loose formation effort those guys were flying?

[SpazSinbad]

Take it up with 'sycamore': "If you try U-TOOB,look for` Lima Lima flight ILS approach`; there also maybe a video on Ppune taken by Ned 2,of the Skyhawks really in the `soup`.." Thanks. I was just providing the Utube link for LimaLima. About 'Ned 2' I have no idea.

[Pom pom]

Geehovah. Excellent vid, thanks.

The grey / silver bits stayed just about visible when the white had gone. I can understand your puckering! So why are L1011s et al not painted camo or drab? Is there a point to them being white if it compromises air-to-air and other close formating? Sorry if I'm being less than bright.

PP

[wiggy]

Ah yes, that reminds me of the joys of holding position in IMC with something painted in AD grey........thank heavens for the boot prints:}

[BOAC]

Even more exciting when all you can see is the basket and a bit of hose disappearing into the murk.- how do you spell leens again?:)

[BEagle]

Pom pom, TriShaws are painted John Major Grey these days, they are no longer white.

In GW1, the 2 Pink Pigs had half the reflected light value of a white TriStar.

[PlasticCabDriver]

Close formation in helicopters:

That looks about right = 2 rotor spans
Jesus that's close = 1 1/2 rotor spans
F*cking hell that's close = the required 1 span (usually accompanied by the crewmen muttering about fire axes and pilots heads if he gets any f*cking closer)

[Two's in]

Close formation in helicopters:

At least you get a better audio warning if you get too close to your wing man in a helicopter. I vaguely rememeber the RN's 'Whales" display team (a pair of Sea Kings) had a close encounter while practicing in the early eighties, and both landed safely despite multiple blade strikes, which sort of disproved the theory that when the whirling bades of death touch something, death is instantaneous and catastrophic (OK, it normally is).

[Yellow Son]

Even more exciting when all you can see is the basket and a bit of hose disappearing into the murk.- how do you spell leens again?

Whenever I did this I always developed the very clear impression that we were both going vertically downward. (Something to do with the speed of the whispy stuff whipping past, I guess). I was unwise enough to mention this to the copilot once, who opined that it ought to be easy with a hose to keep us attached. I was too busy to hit him at the time, but I did eat his sandwiches later.

[Runaway Gun]

..and did that co-pilot slowly grin uncontrollably once he saw you finally swallow the last of that sandwich? :yuk:

[Yellow Son]

No, he wasn't smart enough to have thought of sabotage . . .

[twothree]

Reminds me, formation loops and barrel rolls in the black stuff!

[Runaway Gun]

I think that proves you didn't pay attention to the 'leans' lecture :)

[twothree]

Anti-col off, navs on steady dim, lead with one in min burner, try it sometime!

[Runaway Gun]

...and Dark Visor raised or lowered?

You are new here aren't you chap?

[Lightning Mate]

It's an absolute doddle - providing one has been correctly trained.

However, at night in thick cloud, I preferred all lights out.

Bread and butter stuff......!!

[E L Whisty]

As a personal preference, close formation in cloud is much better than loose formation. I liked the USN / Marine kind of close, especially on a dark, dark night in thick clag recovering into God's chosen fighter field (Leuchars).

Better is being 1 mile radar trail!

Best is watching some other poor sods doing it. It took me several years before I discovered an activity that puckered my ring piece quite as much. Happily, she got the message and buggered off with a ginger Scotsman. Saved me a fortune.

... aaannndd, relax.

[Fareastdriver]

Does anybody remember that FTC flight safety magazine cartoon with a student doing his first formation exercise.

First picture; student goggle eyed and sweatng with the instructor telling him, "relax, relax."

Second picture; student relaxed and instructor wide eyed and sweating. "For Christ's sake tense up again."

[E L Whisty]

Yes, I do Fed - thanks for the chuckle.

We had a similar one on a crewroom wall at Cottesmore TTTE with a picture of a Tornado crew after their first night TFR sortie and the same after their 500th night TFR sortie.

Half crown - sixpence! My doc is astounded at the health of my prostate. I wish everything else worked so well. (So does Mrs Whisty)

[Lightning Mate]

You bloody youngsters!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Some of were at this stuff in the sixties!!!!!!!!!!

We were also at a lot of other things..........:E:E:E

[E L Whisty]

which were covered by the 11th commandment, LM...

Thou shalt not....?

[bayete]

"You can get more A-Level and formate two heavies at night in IMC for air-to-air refuelling."

I can vouch for that...32 mins in contact, tobogganing in turbulant IMC burning the VC10's fuel south of S Georgia on the way to S Sandwich.
Loosing visual with the tanker was not an option and at times all we saw was the hose dissapearing into the cloud- 3..2......1............ahh there she is :eek:
At least it was still daylight.

That was a great game of who needs the fuel most, lots of sharp pencilling by the navs as we were both on mins for the task. Evantually the 10 forced the disconnect by climbing away from us.

[Yellow Son]

Among the other odds and s*ds I turned my hand to during my career, I was the project officer in MOD OR Division for the VC10(K). One of the bigger arguents I had was over the center hose - 'let's leave it out to save time and money' was a popular cry. I count that as one of my more useful wins!

[grollie]

i take my hat off to the Lightning pilots formating on a Shack AEW wingtip 1 each side at night (dirty at that)in the early 80s as the shack pilot inching the throttles back and the angle of attack increasing. Then when too much engaging reheat. A sight never to be forgotten. phantoms in daylight as well but not as spectacular:ok::ok::ok:

[Geehovah]

A Shack at VNe was way too scary for me in a Phantom Grollie. Pulling alongside at co speed "dangling the dunlops" wasn't something I ever recommended even to get a nice picture! Berlin Corridor reinforcement exercises alongside a Pembroke or intercepting a Cessna 150 in the ADIZ were in the same category!

[Geehovah]

I think the best one I had was on the first Swift Sword in 86. It was a 10.5 hour trip arriving in Oman at 1300 local for the local dignitaries. The 2230 departure from Coningsby was bad. The 0230 bracket over the Eastern Med in cloud was wonderful. Shame the secondary tanker wasnt at his assigned height! Combat in cloud - brilliant! The IMC tanking after that seemed like a breeze