The air rank old boys club

[Corporal Clott]

Latest (25 Aug 11) senior promotion list...

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AIR RANK & COMMAND APPOINTMENTS LIST 6-11
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Air Vice-Marshal Sir David Walker KCVO OBE will retire from the Royal Air Force in the rank of Air Marshal on 31 August 2011.
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Air Vice-Marshal M C Green CBE to be Director Information Superiority in the Ministry of Defence and the Air Member for Equipment Capability with effect from 28 October 2011, in succession to Air Vice-Marshal S J Hillier CBE DFC. *
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Air Vice-Marshal M J Harwood CBE to be Senior Directing Staff (Air) at the Royal College of Defence Studies in March 2012, in succession to Air Vice-Marshal B L Bates CBE who will be retiring from the Service.
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Air Vice-Marshal M G Lloyd to be Air Officer Commanding No 22 Group and Chief of Staff Training, Headquarters Air Command, with effect from 14 October 2011, in succession to Air Vice-Marshal M C Green CBE.
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Air Vice-Marshal M J G Wiles CBE to be Air Secretary and Chief of Staff Personnel, Headquarters Air Command, with effect from 23 September 2011, in succession to Air Vice-Marshal M G Lloyd.
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Air Vice-Marshal J A Young OBE to be Executive Officer & Chief Engineer (Air Command) with effect from 16 September 2011, in succession to Air Vice-Marshal M J G Wiles CBE.
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Air Vice-Marshal (Retired) D M Niven CB CBE to be Air Officer Northern Ireland with effect from 1 September 2011 as a member of the Royal Air Force Reserve.
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Air Commodore I C Morrison CBE to be promoted Air Vice-Marshal and to be Chief of Staff Capability, Headquarters Air Command, with effect from 12 September 2011. This is a new 2-star appointment.
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Air Commodore D Best OBE to be Assistant Chief of Staff Capability, Headquarters Air Command, in March 2012, in succession to Air Commodore I C Morrison CBE.


At least the "old boys club" is looking after itself whilst Rome is burning!!!:ugh:

Promoted to 3-star for 6 days to get the 3-star pension and the creation of yet another 2-star post (the second in a year at Air Command; the previous being the XO/COS Air Command post). Meanwhile, the rest of us make a 33% manpower cut in the HQs...

To quote a far more capable famous starred officer in WWII - "NUTS!" Or maybe I should add a "C" and re-arrange? :E

CPL Clott

[teeteringhead]

A little more to it than that, Clott old boy (pun intended). Walker D's KCVO is/should be a bit of a giveaway - ain't many 2* knights about....

He's been Master of the Queen's Household for six years (and may well be staying there!) so one senses the fair hand of HM herself in this .....

Certainly her hand is in the KCVO, which is in her personal gift; she has been known to whisper when presenting something from the RVO (MVO, LVO, CVO etc): "This one's real, not from the PM!"

As another thread (albeit rather coarsely) suggests, this is the Royal Air Force after all ....... ;)

Edited to add:

... and you'll probably find that Morrison's "new" post is in effect a rustication from the Ministry.....

[Wensleydale]

Do the Air Ranks have a different pension system to the rest of us - if not then the pension will be based upon the highest 12 months earnings within the last 3 years - the promotion should have little effect?

[Old-Duffer]

Before one gets too carried away, the most interesting appointment is that of David Niven, a retired AVM.

I am assuming his appointment as AO Northern Ireland is a largely ceremonial one, given that he is to be classed as RAF Reserve.

On a wider canvas, air officers are given occasional briefings and updates on the way the forces are going and they frequenetly use their influence in business and elsewhere to spread the word about the forces and the issues the services face. Let's not have too much slagging off of the air officers please, they do an enormous amount of good, working quietly in the background.

Old Duffer - on his high horse again

[cazatou]

O-D

I seem to recall that a somewhat older "David Niven" had an interesting role with "Special Forces" during WW2.

[teeteringhead]

O-D Indeed it will be mostly ceremonial ... probably similar to AO Wales, who is also a sort of reservist (not CC ;)), I think he's paid for about 30-odd days a year.

Although as you say, the "Old and Bold" are movers and shakers very usefully on our side ......

Question: AO Scotland (aka Leuchars Staish) is a one -star regular

AO Wales is a one-star reservist

will Niven as AO NI be a one-star ..... and if not, why not?

There is plenty of precedent for regulars dropping a rank to be RAFR - and I don't mean AEF pilots! ;)

[Melchett01]

I seem to recall that a somewhat older "David Niven" had an interesting role with "Special Forces" during WW2

If memory serves, he was a member of The General Headquarters Liaison Regiment AKA Phantom whose role was something along the lines of a forward deployed EW unit designed to work out where the enemy FLOT was so a bomb line could be put down.

A bit of a turn up really considering his earlier military career when he "escaped" to the States whilst under arrest for insubordination and resigned his commission by telegram - no JPA to deal with in those days :ok:

[4Greens]

David Niven was in the army and then did work with ENSA etc

[Sir George Cayley]

My understanding is that for AVM at least the pension equals normal pay.

SGC

[Birdbath]

Last CAS tried this one, to PUS credit (not much due) he said compete with your peers and RAF may promote, If QE2 wishes to appoint she can pay. QE2 silent along with CAS. Maybe QE2 decided 2 pay or current CAS/PUS even more spineless.

[corporal punishment]

SGC,

As I take my pension book the post office every Thursday:sad: I often reflect on air officers pensions:{

I think (but don't know) that air officer pensions are calculated in a similar way to lesser mortals. It's only Marshals of the RAF who never retire and go onto half pay.

Cpl P

[Whenurhappy]

Sir David's pension is calculated in exactly the same way as everybody else. His promotion is to do with maintaining service parity with his KCVO, that's all. He has done an enormous amount of good in the Royal Household - trimming down the huge amount of waste and culling the staff, whilst 'maintaining standards'. Not bad for an Adminer.

I think that we will see an increased rustication of Star posts from Main Building out to the Front Line Commands, with a concomitant movement of the supporting staff as Centre costs are driven ever further downwards. Gone, sadly, are the days of a pied de terre Pimlico, Putney or Docklands. Try a shared bed-sit in Croydon for the lucky few posted into Defence HQ.

[Bismark]

His promotion is to do with maintaining service parity with his KCVO, that's all.

I don't see why. CO HQ LONDIST - a Maj Gen is normally given a KCVO on retirement but is not promoted. Neither was Flag Officer Royal Yacht - a Rear Adm. So why Has he been promoted? Sounds like RAF aggrandisement to me, KCVO is a Royal award and nothing to do with the RAF prom system.

Does this make him the most senior Admin Branch officer ever?

[foldingwings]

Is it not true to say that AMs and above may retire but they are never off duty promoting and representing the RAF at the highest and political levels. I certainly know a few who who are 'still involved'!

Foldie:D

[teeteringhead]

And I think most "stars" (stand fast MRAFs - but not many of those) retire on about half pay - like most do.

Of course, half theirs is more than all of a lot of ours ......:(

[Red Line Entry]

I believe that under AFPS75, you are required to achieve at least 1 year in rank before being eligible for a higher pension (and 2 years before it's the full pension for the higher rank). So the promotion won't make any difference to his pension at all.

In addition, the XO post was offset from the demise of the COS SPP post from the HQ - so no net increase.

We know that the HQ is going down to one 4-star and two 3-stars, the main area for discussion seems to be the 2-star posts. Any proposals?

[Tankertrashnav]

Pretty sure that Foldie is correct and that only MRAFs get half pay and technically don't retire. Four star and below are on the same system as the rest of us I believe, but surely someone serving can check that in QR's (or don't they print that any more?).

[Whenurhappy]

QRs - still published but no longer printed. And they are not the authority for salary and pension matters (try JSP 752 et seq). SPVA in Glasgow are the font of all knowledge, that is, if you can understand Clydebank Glaswegian.

[foldingwings]

Damian, my boy!

Are you still available on the after-dinner circuit ?

Of course, but it'll cost you more than your pension could provide!

Foldie:E

[mmitch]

Quote
Air Vice-Marshal M C Green CBE to be Director Information Superiority in the Ministry of Defence and the Air Member for Equipment Capability with effect from 28 October 2011, in succession to Air Vice-Marshal S J Hillier CBE DFC. *
Is that similar to Air Superiority? ;)
mmitch.

[Phil_R]

Apologies for the thread hijack, but:

What is the notional difference between an "officer" and an "air officer"?

I notice the distinction is even made when people are sworn into the army or the RAF (for the army it's "officers and generals", for the RAF it's "officers and air officers", if memory serves).

I therefore assume there's some sort of special distinction, but I don't know what it is.

End of silly question 'o the day.

P

[Climebear]

Phill_R

With the wah shield up: Air Officers are those in the senior ranks that begin with the word Air - ie Air Commodore to Air Chief Marshal - and Marshal of the Royal Air Force.

[foldingwings]

Is that similar to Air Superiority?

Nope!;)

Foldie:E

[Phil_R]

Air Officers are those in the senior ranks that begin with the word Air - ie Air Commodore to Air Chief Marshal - and Marshal of the Royal Air Force.

Really!

Well I never :)

[foldingwings]

Phil,

You become an Air Officer when you reach starred rank. Just as, in the Army, when you become a Brigadier (General) and beyond; and the Navy when you reach Flag Rank whether that be as any of the Admiral (Rear, Vice or full) classes. Not sure if Commodore in the Navy qualifies (ask a sailor but don't ask him much!) as I understand that to be a 'holding position' pending either promotion to Flag Rank or retirement ......or some sh!t like that.

Foldie:bored:

PS. But you knew you'd get sense outta me!

[Tankertrashnav]

as I understand that to be a 'holding position' pending either promotion to Flag Rank or retirement ......or some sh!t like that.



The captain at Culdrose is sometimes a commodore, but the present captain's a captain. Of course, as he's an observer when he's flying he's not the captain!

Simples!

[Bismark]

Of course, as he's an observer when he's flying he's not the captain!

Er, he most certainly will be!

[MPN11]

You know you're getting old when ... you only recognise one name in the first post :eek:

[Nomorefreetime]

At least the "old boys club" is looking after itself whilst Rome is burning!!!

Not being even a junior member of this club, Surely if the Club looks after it's own, it will have a knock on effect all the way to the bottom of the pyramid for someone to fill the vacant shoe's. Surely that must be good for all below, 'left in / not made redundant / not PVR'd' (delete as required)

[Tankertrashnav]

Er, he most certainly will be!

How does that work then? (serious question)

[Diablo Rouge]

You do not have to be a pilot to be the Captain of certain UK Mil Plc fleets. I think the Nimrod fleet started the trend. Apologies to those allergic to the word 'Nimrod'. One is assuming that this situation is now valid in the Navy, although when using 'civilian owned' aircraft (King Air) I would have thought it unlikely.

Regarding the Senior Officer 'Air' cadre: Is it not true that Air Officers get 'appointed' whereas Gp Capt & below get 'promoted'. Meaning that Air Officers can find their services no longer required whereas the mortals have to be made redundant.

[Bismark]

In the RN the senior member of the crew is usually aircraft captain, quite often it is the Observer. Indeed in Merlin, Lynx and grey Seakings the Obs is often the most appropriate guy to be a/c captain. It is not an issue for RN crews.

[threeputt]

You should know better; the senior officer on board one of the RN's aircraft is always the "captain."

3P:ok:

Bismark got there quicker than I!

[jindabyne]

It is not an issue for RN crews

Excellent! Keep it that way and let the ROTW proceed normally:D

[Tankertrashnav]

Thanks guys, but as I've never flown grey funnel line I wasn't to know that. I flew a few times with another nav who was a wing commander, but the fairly junior flight lieutenant in the lhs was definitely the captain. Seemed like a sensible system to me, especially as said wing commander nav could have got lost crossing the road!

I knew about the Nimrod system, but I think I'm right in saying that the nav was only captain at certain stages of the operation and captaincy reverted to the 1st pilot for the remainder of the sortie. Once again - stand to be corrected as I managed to avoid the mighty hunter.

[newt]

Been going on for years guys! And don't forget all the careers they have ruined to get where they are today!! :ugh:

[middleground]

Tanker.

As far as Nimrod MR2 was concerned the captain could be Pilot/Nav or AEO. (never knew of a captain Eng) and was the captain of that crew at all times unless they were really naughty. some A/C have separate flight deck and mission crew commanders but that will just confuse the issue. Captains are not necessarily pilots. And as in all walks of life there were good and bad pilot or not.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Been going on for years guys! And don't forget all the careers they have ruined to get where they are today!! :ugh:

And despite virtually no seats for them we are awash with the ****ers, the cull should have started years ago :=

[heights good]

officers are on a 1/60th pension, everyone else is on a 1/80th pension. This means for every year you have worked you accrue 1/60th or 1/80th of you final salary.

So what does this mean, in simplistic terms (there are a few other rules) officers who have served for 30 yrs (all air ranks) will get 30/60ths which equals a "half pension" due to time served. Everyone else will get an almost half pension if they serve for 37yrs i.e. 37/80ths.

So Air ranks do not retire a special pension, they have merely done their time.

I hope this helps.

Pension Calculator (http://83.138.137.164:8080/) - Try it here.

[Rigga]

Wow!
"Ju-Ju-Babes" - Bengo on 7 Sqn - to Chief Engineer!

[Rather be Gardening]

Yes, good to see one of the best getting to the top. He was a brilliant Station Commander at Cosford, thoroughly nice bloke too. :ok:

[Rigga]

Agreed. If he is the same 'bloke' now - he deserves this. I admired his performance (from my lowly view) in the Falklands (when he did two tours back-to-back) and in GW1 where he was sound and logical - which made a nice change from others in the same places.