Farewell paper maps and charts

[PPRuNeUser0139]

Does this (http://www.wgntv.com/blogs/leshock-value/wgntv-watch-united-airlines-pilots-replacing-paper-navigation-charts-with-ipads-20110823,0,778147.story) finally mean that the bulging nav bag is about to be a thing of the past..?
Or am I being precipitate by a decade or two..?:E

[Uncle Ginsters]

Well, it does for United!

RAF options have/are already being looked at but the dinosaurs have slowed it already.

Not to mention the fact that the RAF also binned the Jeppesen contract for TAPs and i'm pretty sure that NavTech don't do an iPad app yet!

This is clearly the way forward, at least for those cockpits/flight decks with space available!

Here's hoping...

[5 Forward 6 Back]

There were USMC F18 units at Kandahar using iPads for all sorts of useful airborne info. I wonder when we'll start...

[Wrathmonk]

Buy off the shelf - behave!!!! Surely we'll need a bespoke device capable of sustaining 30g whilst 10000ft underwater with a security system that requires three separate dongles and five passwords. It will be at least five times the size of an iPad and use it's own OS making it incompatible with the rest of NATO. And it must be designed and produced by BAE Systems. Although in fairness, and to balance the discussion, the requirement will be changed by the MOD on a monthly basis with the budget being reduced accordingly. The project manager will also be changed by the MOD every 6 months to ensure a 'fresh approach'.

I can hear industry rubbing their hands together in anticipation!

[airborne_artist]

... and most of them will be found left behind on trains anyway :E

[MPN11]

In a more benign environment, BA are trialling iPads for cabin crew. Uses include passenger manifests and access to numerous manuals.

British Airways Revolutionises Customer Service Using iPads « British Airways Press Office (http://press.ba.com/?p=1881)

[tonker]

They are also much easier to read than a QRH in smoke.

[Carry0nLuggage]

Wrathmonk Not in these days of Fixed Prices contracts they won't.

RAF via MoD says "We want what the Yanks have got"

British industry gets hold of the relelvant specs and cracks on. After a while is struggling mightly to meet the specs. MoD gets shirty; Yanks find it highly amusing, offering to take over the contract.

The guys at the coal face, determined to deliver what was asked for do a little digging and find out that the US version never met the specs and nobody thought to tell the Brits about all the waivers. :ugh::ugh:

[Ken Scott]

And we'd have to carry paper copies 'just in case' of an iPad failure.

And how do you fit one under the TAP clip on the control column for the approach? Or will LM design an iPad clip & charge £15k for it (similar to the TAP clip!)

[Legalapproach]

Not sure about the comment "They will turn them off for take-off and landing"

[Could be the last?]

I'd heard that the US AH drivers were already using them. Whereas our guys have something like 54 maps stored around the 2 cockpits! It is a no brainer in my opinion, just ruggadize it and good to go!:ok:

[Wrathmonk]

just ruggadize it

You make it sound so simple! This is the MOD ......

[Uncle Ginsters]

I think the trouble is, it just sounds too gucci! Some senior type will get all tight about it looking like we're being frivolous by bringing our pubs into the 21st century and can the whole idea.

On a certain 4-jet widebody fleet, they recently worked out that by eliminating the cost-to-carry of all the docs, you could buy 3 iPads per jet in around 4 months - a total no brainer but still we rest in the dark ages.

The only issue might be the additional time spent in the hold finishing off that last level of Angry Birds :ok:

[Fluffy Bunny]

The only issue might be the additional time spent in the hold finishing off that last level of Angry Birds http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif

Which in turn will negate the fuel savings of binning all that paper! :O

[Wensleydale]

And what are the EMI implications of an I-Pad in a military aircraft. Have they been trialled? And before everyone goes mad, listen to a mobile phone on your computer speakers.

While a passenger aircraft "glass cockpit" may be EMI resistant, what are the implications on a combat aircraft weapons system etc. Look at the security rules for computers and software, and an I-Pad etc are simply not a player........

[Bill Macgillivray]

Ever tried using them in "anger"? I think that they have limitations in the airline world, never mind the military FJ world!:=:=

[ACSfirstfail]

High tech is fantastic; currently operating with Jep on ipad as back up for the even more high tech "Plane View" flight deck with Jep plates. However we still fly with backup, backup paper charts.........just in case the wiggly amps go wrong.

[JTIDS]

Dump navtec, go back to jeppensen, (Why or why did we every leave them?) give every multi's jet five ipads, with protective cases and glue on velcro to the old tap holders so they can be stuck in place.

Deal with EMI issues by putting them in flight safe mode.

Result, money saved within six months from not having to print everything out all the bloody time.

Simples.

[Blacksheep]

Laptops and iPads in the cockpit? That's Electronic Flight Bag, Class One (EFB1) and so 1990s. :rolleyes:

Meanwhile, we civilian types are on to EFB3 (http://www.boeing.com/commercial/aviationservices/brochures/efb.pdf) fully integrated into the Flight Management System.

[scientia in alto]

I saw a Lynx chap from our very own AAC trialling an iPad with docs on it recently.... who knows it may happen!?

[Willard Whyte]

The first thing those geniuses in RAFP will do is tell C4I to disable the wireless communication. Result: 1 lb 5 1/2 oz of ballast.

[Shackman]

That's assuming the other geniuses in the command structure don't enforce the 'it's not cleared on the release to service so you can't use it/have it on in the air' as they did with the Squirrel and hand held devices at DHFS.

[dervish]

That's assuming the other geniuses in the command structure don't enforce the 'it's not cleared on the release to service so you can't use it/have it on in the air' as they did with the Squirrel and hand held devices at DHFS.


That regulation exists for a reason. If it had been enforced, Chinook ZD576 would not have been flying on 2/6/94. It isn't a big task to clear such a device, but you have to do it in each aircraft type, which will take time.

[Shackman]

I'm sorry - you are quite correct, and I didn't word that very well. I really meant it seems too difficult to get these trials sorted at Shawbury when other locations, such as MW, seem to be able to get these things working in next to no time.

[Sqwark2000]

Not too mention that the iPad works on heat source from the finger to select/move/resize documents.... you gonna remove a flying glove each time you wanna find something?

[ACSfirstfail]

Blacksheep,

That looks a tad antiquated....try Jepp plates intergrated on the the 4 screens in front of you. Not seperate EFBs.

Rgds ACS

[RimBim]

Hi, speaking as someone trying to find a colour 7" monitor bright enough to work in a FJ cockpit in full sun at 25000' (with consequential explosive depressurisation issues) for potential SA use, would any of these devices fit the mapping bill anyway? For aircrew wearing dark helmet screens too. There doesn't seem to be much available. Half mil LFCs are complex enough as it is (tichy avoid area circles hidden under boundary lines, etc.)

[BEagle]

Bugger all use for starting a piano fire though! Whereas a ripped up En-Route Supp and the night end of a time-expired day/night flare would cook up an old Joanna a treat!

[Willard Whyte]

Oh, I don't know.

An exploding iPad could be rather spectacular (iPod below)

http://www.geek.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/08/ipod_1.jpg

Apple offers exploding iPod touch refund in return for silence (http://www.geek.com/articles/mobile/apple-offers-exploding-ipod-touch-refund-in-return-for-silence-2009083/)

Still want a couple on the flight deck chaps? I'll stay with the paper version thanks, at least it seldom acts as the source of the fire. I'd be happy to have the damn things banned on any flight I was on, whether as crew or passenger.

Apple sued over ‘exploding’ iPod - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/technology/apple/4987007/Apple-sued-over-exploding-iPod.html)

http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Technology/images/melted-ipod-2.jpg
(http://scrapetv.com/News/News%20Pages/Technology/images/melted-ipod-2.jpg)

[VinRouge]

sorry, that affected Ipod, not Ipad. Besides, I can think of plenty of lithium powered devices we already carry on the jet, not limited to: personal laptops, Ipods, work required laptops, lithium containing freight, oh and of course, noggs.

It seems to me, the only people against an FAA certified product that could auto update in range of a wireless hub (no hand ammendments) are the senile generation, and a bunch of scuffers trying to justify their own jobs. Besides the fact that with an internet connection via 3g, we could self file, and, god forbid, actually get notams and met within 24 hours of dispach. As opposed to what we get at the moment.

iPad receives FAA certification as an electronic flight bag | TUAW - The Unofficial Apple Weblog (http://www.tuaw.com/2011/02/13/ipad-receives-faa-certification-as-an-electronic-flight-bag/)

[Willard Whyte]

I already pointed out it was a Pod not a Pad.

I'd opine it's only a matter of time.

Oh, no need to refer to those who'd rather not have the device as senile, is there?

[cazatou]

Anything that relies on Sat Nav or Radio Transmissions can be spoofed.

It is not easy to move a City or Airfield to another location without somebody noticing and talking about it.

Ergo -the Paper map and the Mk 1 Eyeball still have a part to play in 21st Century Warfare.

[PPRuNeUser0139]

While I can see the virtues of an iPad (despite being senile!), where would all the maps and charts be found that currently adorn the walls of the Nation's squadrons, Ops rooms, ATC enclaves - and all the personal aircrew folders..?

[FJ2ME]

It may surprise many of you to know AIDU are actually all over this and have an app ready to go that they will demo to you on an iPod touch with pleasure. Unfortunately the res of us in the room that weren't a very enthusiastic AIDU Wg Cdr could see that this will be ruined by piss poor procurement of some cheap iCrap iPad wannabe that some ex-AOC has the import licence for, and the security d!c£heads will see to it that even that is reduced to a door wedge. I'm sorry, I just have no confidence in our force to do anything properly any more...

[dallas]

Not too mention that the iPad works on heat source from the finger to select/move/resize documents.... you gonna remove a flying glove each time you wanna find something?
Why do you need gloves anyway?

[Willard Whyte]

The crews of many types, multis included, mandate the wearing of gloves during some flight phases.

[NutLoose]

And here was me thinking they were about to drag out a load of Surplus NAVWASS's now they have flogged the life remaining Jags wings to Oman and retrofit them to the Tiffie.

:E

[VinRouge]

Cut a tip off your Ipad finger then. :ok:

You can get capacitive touchpens that will solve this problem.

http://www.amazon.com/BoxWave-Capacitive-iPad-Stylus-Black/dp/B000BUI76S

[Wander00]

So does this mean that electronic devices are no longer a problem in the back where the walk on freight sit?

[appleavi8or]

I, along with scores of others, used GPS in mil ac as soon as it became clear the MOD and the 'old school' were not going to play. I also used an ipad in flight for mapping, GPS and flight pubs over a year ago. The iphone with memory map was invaluable on NVG Cat A(F) instructional sorties.

As long as the relatively simple trials process is undertaken, the use of an ipad in flight is easy to clear - it already is in the Puma.

[The Old Fat One]

what's an ipad?:confused:

[5 Forward 6 Back]

Sqwark, Dallas, the USMC pilots I spoke about did indeed fly with the fingertips cut off the first 2 fingers of their glove.

[Pontius Navigator]

To the RAF fixed price means if we need to cut costs we will reduce what we will pay. You then get less at a basic spec.

To the contractor it means pay more if you want it to work. Pay lots more if you want it to do what you really want.

sent from Mrs PNs Kindle from a tropical island covered in cloud.

[BEagle]

what's an ipad?

A popular beat combo, m'lud?

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/radio.jpg

iPlod?