If only it wasn't civilianised

[matelo99]

Saw this today and got very annoyed. I have always wondered what will happen when the Civvies get upset. Apparently they and their union will just down tools. If anyone can correct me on this then please feel free. Is Wattisham a combined Civvy/REME workforce? If it is then I feel sorry for the poor pongoes having to cover the extra work. I'm all in favour of people being able to raise concerns and the like but why are we allowing unions to hold the Military to ransom?? I'm assuming that the war won't stop, neither will the training requirement.

BBC News - Crews servicing combat helicopters in Suffolk to strike (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-suffolk-14635813)

Hopefully I've got the wrong end of the stick.....

[BEagle]

Unfortunately that's the sort of thing which happens if a military service outsources its crucial requirements to some civilian organisation more concerned with profit maximisation than quality of service....:(

The creeping cancer of contractorisation - it will always end in tears..:{

It would never have happened in pre-pongo days when Wattisham was Suffolk's finest RAF fighter base, of course!

[Roadster280]

There are no "pre-pongo days" for the RAF...

[SOSL]

Pay them the same as everyone else - no problem!

[SOSL]

"It would never have happened in pre-pongo days when Wattisham was Suffolk's finest RAF fighter base, of course!"

Whatashame was a dogs breakfast in its "pre-pongo" days and never got to be any better.

[A2QFI]

Easy! Pay them all the same and then give the Hampshire people a Cost of Living Allowance. We don't know what the base salary is but I think that Wattisham people probably have more cash in their pockets on the last day of the month!

[SOSL]

Complete Bollo..s

[adminblunty]

It does really matter, of the 150 staff only 85 voted and they have 100 members. If they go on strike it will be a dismissable offence for a non-union member to strike, so 50 staff will work as a minimum. Even though 85 voted, I'd be surprised if more 50% of those how voted went on strike, therefore it's likely 90+ staff will cross the picket line.

In the current climate strike action is as effective as it used to be, ask PCS, NUT and the ATL. In some government departments only 1% of staff supported the PCS strike over pension changes. We offered 40 redundancies to our staff, the majority who left were known Union members even though the Union opposed the redundancies, one of the union reps applied for redundancy as well!

At worst Unite will strike for a day and work will continue on without them, the next strike will be less well supported and management will win. In this economic climate management have the upper hand.

[Jimlad1]

Out of curiosity, given the specialist nature of these roles, how many of those in the work force are likely to be ex military?

[Jabba_TG12]

Sorry, I'm with Beags on this. Would never have happened in the old days. Things have been civilianised way too far over the last 15 years.All this is just UNITE willy-waving. Pity we havent got a party in power that has any vertebrae to be able to stand up to them.

[A2QFI]

Military people get a the same basic pay world wide and allowances to compensate them for the vagaries of local conditions. Why shouldn't civilians working for the military be treated the same? Discuss, without resorting to verbal abuse.

[exairman]

Do the AW and VT people doing the engineering at the various SAR flights get different rates?

It can be more difficult to get the same skills at different parts of the country and therefore an extra few quid needed, particular if somewhere is in the middle of nowhere!

[FantomZorbin]

BEagle, Jabba.

I'm afraid this cr@p goes way back. I remember that the Harrier due to display at the Finningley At Home in 1970 was cancelled because of industrial (in)action.

You'd think that some bright b***er at MoD would get the message by now:ugh::*

[Load Toad]

Sorry, I'm with Beags on this. Would never have happened in the old days. Things have been civilianised way too far over the last 15 years.All this is just UNITE willy-waving. Pity we havent got a party in power that has any vertebrae to be able to stand up to them.

It did happen in the 'Old Days' industrial action of one kind or the other happened during 'the war'.

I don't know about the specifics of this case but generally I'm heartily sick of workers being treated like crap by management, So - if it is militarily & defence important - keep it with the military only & don't have civies involved - that'll cost a bob or two too.

[Jabba_TG12]

A2QFI:I remember getting a London allowance when posted to Bentley Priory, but nothing when at the secret Chiltern HQ, which was an equally expensive area nor when at Buchan for 7 years considering Aberdeenshire was one of the most expensive places outside of London to live and work at the time because of the oil industry. We just had to lump it and get on with it. So, in terms of giving them the same basic regardless, yes, I'm in favour. If they dont like it, then leave. I'm sure we can import more from overseas to do what they're too hung up to do.The vagaries you refer to these days are more er... international, shall we say rather than UK regional. This is a UK regional thing.Certain functions can be civiliansed with not much impact. But stuff like this, the military should never have let go of. Never. All this is about is UNITE stirring it up.

[pamac51]

I seem to recall that Sealand, then the home of radar/radio repair had allowed its workforce to become almost totally (MOD) civilianised back in the 70s. Everything fine until the Derek Hattons of this world started to wind up the natives. Strikes/Treats of strikes made the MOD realise that there were no/very few RAF technicians who had real knowledge of deep servicing procedures. Solution was to start moving blue suits back in to the servicing sqns. Will we never learn?

[Whopity]

to some civilian organisation more concerned with profit The primary function of any business is to make a profit, everything else is secondary to that aim. The purpose of tendering military contracts is to save money and as we know the contract always goes to the lowest bidder. As with everything in life, you get what you pay for. Some call it efficiency! One day the accountants will work out why the military had more tradesmen than front line "soldiers". When there are no ex-military tradesmen left to work on half pay, Serco will have to find a new means of making money. So far its doing rather well!

[airborne_artist]

Military people get a the same basic pay world wide and allowances to compensate them for the vagaries of local conditions. Why shouldn't civilians working for the military be treated the same? Discuss, without resorting to verbal abuse.

Housing costs vary across the country for civilians, but not for those in uniform in SFA, for a start.

[Wander00]

First responsibility of the directors is to the shareholders. That does not necessarily mean a quick buck now - long, slowere burn might give better returns over time. It is, of course, a matter of judgement

[cazatou]

A2QFI

Your Post No 11

1. Civilian employees have a maximum working week.

2. Civilian employees do not do Armed Gate Guard.

3. Civilian employees do not regularly disappear to the far side of the Planet in response to the midnight phone call.

4. If the Civilian workforce are in dispute with their Employers they cease work - for the Military that would be "Mutiny".

[Wander00]

A2QFI (With a nod to Cazatou) - now I know why I struggled in the "different cultures" bit when I was teaching career change to those leaving the services.

[A2QFI]

Thank you Cazatou. I think I made it clear that I was NOT comparing the Military with Civilians. I was suggesting that there might be some differential pay applied between people working in Hampshire and Suffolk. It is nothing to do with the military, they have handed the work over to civilians, for whatever reason good or bad, and are now harvesting the fruits of their financial folly.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

http://www.mod.uk/NR/rdonlyres/F6B61535-2D43-4EBB-9F0B-3CFE07BB49FE/0/cni1_288x191.jpg

Either that MoD Plod civilian is carrying firearm or he's very pleased to see us. A sight to be seen at most HM Naval Base Main Gates.

PS

As will be seen from the photograph URL, it is from the MoD Wedsite; Ministry of Defence | home (http://www.mod.uk).

Perhaps it reflects that a certain Berkshire bomb factory gets some its bang bullion from certain nuclear power stations.

[Jimlad1]

Oh goody another thread becoming a 'Mil Vs rest of the worlds work force T&Cs' thread :ok:

Not much will be achieved here, but its always fun to watch :E

[glad rag]

Interesting that "unite" have got their claws into this, what is the breakdown in numbers of permies to connies ?.

Most mil are ignorant of the fact that there are different "levels" of workforce on any given site.

[acmech1954]

I would like to see how different some of these responses would be, when they have not had a pay raise for over 6 years :(

[NortyBouy]

So, should anyone be interested in the facts and not just here for a right good bitch, heres the story: Westlands have the contract to fix the Apache. They sub contract the maintenance side to Morson Wynwith. I've been there over 10 years, MW have been there 18 months. In that time (18 months) the union membership has trippled (To around 120), you can draw your own conclusions later why. At a head count at work today, we could think of only 3 people in the union that isn't ex-service. Over 50% RAF, double figures former Wattisham personell.

My grade at Middle Wallop gets around 6k more than me (for example). At the last pay negotiations, we pointed out that was really unfair as the cost of living disparity had closed to the point where it is now more expensive to live in Suffolk than Hampshire (thats worked on house prices, I don't know if any other factors are involved). MW agreed and said if we took a token pay rise for that year, they'd increase the pay over 3 years to give us parity with colleagues at Wallop. Which we were all very happy to do of course. This is all above board through the union staff by the way.

12 months later at the pay review, MW now tell us that that agreement was in honour only, that it certainly wasn't leagally binding and offered us another token pay rise (4% over 3 years I think it was), take it or leave it. We were shown the figures of how they could afford it all the year before, its a fixed 4 year contract so the moneys still there, they just seem to have 'changed their minds'. Or lied, you choose.

Now my cheery chums, in your worlds it might be the 'patriotic thing' to drop your kecks, bend over and take it but in mine its not. Westlands have had their obscene profit, MW theirs, I'd just like to get the same as the bloke a few countys away doing the same thing. Who's the greedy traitor in this story? Not me anyway.

[GreenKnight121]

I've been out of work for 17 months now, due to corporate cost-cutting.

Your employer is not only preserving your jobs but managing to increase your pay (token or not, its still an increase).

I just can't feel any sympathy whatsoever.

[Biggus]

So if a bus driver in Plymouth is paid more than a bus driver in Aberdeen, is that unfair? Or just an example of a commercial company paying what it considers the going rate for the job which will enable it to attract and retain adequate staff in a specific location.....?


Is it Morson Wynwith doing the servicing at both Middle Wallop (too many MW abbreviation options) and Wattisham, or just Wattisham?


Even if it is the same company I'm sure there are lots of other examples of a company paying different wages at different geographical locations in the UK.


As my children grew up I tried to break it gently to them that the world actually isn't a "fair" place.....

[NortyBouy]

The pay deal was all budgeted for on a fixed contract with a built in market adjuster. The money is still there we're just not aloud it any more. I tell my kids not to tell lies.

Its the same company at both sites. Usually, an area thats more expensive to live in pays more. Its the other way round here.

[Jabba_TG12]

Norty:I'm not saying that the company has behaved honourably, it would appear on first impression that it has not. So, if thats whats going to keep on happening, vote with your feet. Are these the kind of people you want to work for, if this is what they're going to do?After all, they need you as much as you need them, right?

[Wander00]

Does the contract say anything about pay scales, HR policies, etc. If not, it is down to negotiation.

[currawong]

"would never have happened in the old days" is mentioned

I seem to remember reading somewhere 3,700,000 days were lost to strike action in 1944.(!)

It was, it seems, some sort of record.

[cazatou]

"some sort of record."

Certainly was - longest year I ever heard of!!

[cockney steve]

HAR HAR.....I think Currawong meant "man-days"...."Man" ,of course, indicating Homo sapiens, as opposed to only those of the meat n' two veg gender:\

Sounds like around 6 mill. workers had a half-day off,- not bad , really.

[barnstormer1968]

Nortybouy

That was an interesting post, and maybe you may need to consider that many other poster here have a good insight into how business actually works in the real world.

Your post could be read in a way that suggests that your employer should actually want to look after you! That is something that is truly laughable to most employees of any flavour, and especially to military ones.

A few things spring to mind for me though. But first I need to state where I'm coming from on this, so you can perhaps understand my viewpoint. Employers, and especially military bosses lie to employees. I was once asked to take a quick helicopter trip, do a twenty minute run, do a quick task and return by helicopter......Now, five days later when I was still out, and had not eaten for four days, I wasn't massively surprised. Maybe I just see that I was really a small cog in a big machine, and was easily replaced by an uncaring boss.....That's life though.

I now work for a company that has not given a pay rise in three years, and pays a lower rate than other companies in the same area, but just like you do, I have things very cushy compared to (other engineers in your case) employees in my area who do not have the job security I do. I can leave at any time, and work for whomever I chose.....Just like you can!
Lets also be under NO ILLUSION that your job is held open because of what you work on (not because you are the customers preferred workforce)....the military content has a massive relevance to your job security.....If you had to work on the 'less sensitive' Puma, your job would already be gone!

Do you feel pride in what you do (this is nothing to do with money)?
Do you often meet aircrews who thank you for the job you do?
Do you meet soldiers whose life you may have saved by providing serviceable airframes?

[Rigga]

Barny,

There you go again...just like your predecessors on this thread - ruining what was nearly a good and reasoned argument with a load of crap at the end.

You're mixing some sort of "military pride" with money. As Norty implies - The debate with Moreton-Wynwith is not about the bullsh1t you spout! That's what the soldiers, airmen and fishheads involved in these contracts are for.

In the so-called "PFI" environment of these contracts very few 'workers' deal with end-users and extremely few end-users see the actual work being done (IMHO thats why there are many problems and no real cures)

Mis-management is rife in all these areas - by both sides. But one side are just out to make a buck, which is why they signed the contract in the first place.

There is nothing wrong with making a Buck - but if you want to keep a contract it's also wise to keep your workforce on-side too.

And I suspect that the "fraternal" and "caring" performance of your company's finances is not all the truth you're being told?

[high spirits]

I can't say I feel that sympathetic with either side. I sympathise with the guy who has not been paid what was promised( if that is the case). However, the Market will sort this out. If the workers at Wynwith aren't happy then they strike or resign.

On the one hand, I blame the butt munching chisellers who got themselves promoted by suggesting that civvy engineering was a good thing for the military. There go the gate guards etc. In walk the same shirkers who used to work for the military. They all now belong to their own companies and subcontract themselves to Wynwith for tax avoidance purposes. The only difference is that they now don't shave or visit the barber as often as they used to.

It was always going to come to this.......

[barnstormer1968]

Rigga

When you say:

"There you go again...just like your predecessors on this thread - ruining what was nearly a good and reasoned argument with a load of crap at the end.

You're mixing some sort of "military pride" with money. As Norty implies - The debate with Moreton-Wynwith is not about the bullsh1t you spout! That's what the soldiers, airmen and fishheads involved in these contracts are for."

Actually you are totally wrong there. I was thinking of a firm local to me, where the workers have massive pride in their product as they meet face to face with the servicemen/women who use them (and hear life saving stories). I doubt that many of the late fifties blue rinse mob in this company know much at all about the military, much less served in it:E.

They have pride in their product, because they know that they do the best they can (regardless of pay level), and the service personnel they meet confirm this.

From how I read the OP's post, they do not mention an affinity to military values, and so I do not expect them to have them, or to understand them (not that military values are relevant here......But of course personal pride is universal).

Look at my last three questions again please. I feel that the OP feels his bosses are money grabbers collecting one million per on time airframe, while he is left out in the cold with no pay increase as promised (which will hardly give him a warm secure feeling). This may make him not like his bosses, but on the other hand, to have the heartfelt thanks of the end user is worth more than money in my old fashioned way of life (after all the baddies here are not too sociable to downed aircrew/soldiers). At least to have thanks and appreciation from someone is better than no one.

[jamesdevice]

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU :

"Either that MoD Plod civilian is carrying firearm or he's very pleased to see us. A sight to be seen at most HM Naval Base Main Gates"

Considering that shot appears to be taken at the entrance to a power station, I rather suspect the two officers are from the Civil Nuclear Police

[NortyBouy]

Sorry, I guess this is my fault, this strike beleive it or not, isn't about pay. The wages with wallop have been closing year on year. In 2010 our company agreed to bring inline its wages with our sister site for the same kind of job, it asked if they could pospone it for 12 moths as it was their first year there. All fine so far I hope. For those of you that haven't had a pay rise lately, I feel sorry for you, but I hope you can understand that other people do and we were one of the lucky ones I guess.

The problem is, when they came to deliver, they flatly refused telling us 'what we said last year is in honour only, it isn't legally binding and theres nothing you can do about it'. Do you see, it was a blatent lie to shut us up for 12 months. It was a lie to squeeze a few more quid out of us. It wasn't anything other than that. I don't care if I get a pay rise or not especially. I quite like my job. Or at least I did until these goons took it over. When Morson took over there were 40 union members, now theres 120, all exmillitary, mostly crabs, less around 6 civis-ish. Thats in the last 18 months. Civis have been here for around 15 years, quite happily. This was the straw that broke it.

Something else, the strike wont particularily affect production. Its to cause maximum embarressment and administrative burden to Morson. No poor blokes going to be without his Top Cover, no team of army blokes is going to sweep in and save the day. Its to make a huge public political statement against a greedy unscrupeless employer. Sadly the media aren't on our side. They see us as greedy mercenaries holding our country to ransom, much like lots of you. Which I hope you now understand is rubbish. No one cares about a payrise (it would be nice of course though), we're just fighting back the only way we can.

Oh and if I seemed a bit angry and patronising in my original post, thats cos I was, so I apologise. Sincere thanks pprune for not publishing my last post.

[Jabba_TG12]

Norty:

One of todays facts of life and you guys are going to have to do what you're going to have to do, whatever it may be, plain and simple.

I think a number of us just lament that such things were ever outsourced/civilianised in the first place, but that ship has long since sailed and those at the top either encouraged it or stood by and watched it happen and did nothing. This is where our great leaders of the 1990's era led us.

Personally, if I were in your shoes, I doubt I would feel any different to what you do. You have to look after your own, because if you dont, sure as hell no-one else will.

[NortyBouy]

You see Jabba, the problem we're having is that whenever its reported in the media its about, engineers on strike over £3000 pay difference, what will the troops in afgan do then?. Thats not the case. Our union boss talked on camera for around 30 minutes on the local news, his comments were reduced to about 20 seconds. All edited to promote their original view.

We'd heared what this company was like and the rumours were proved right. So I could leave I suppose, hell go to Wallop. I'd much rather be there than Wattisham, but why should I. I agreed something in good faith and got shafted, quite openly and deliberately. If they'd said times were hard and moneys tight we all have to make sacrifices, thats a fair point and we'd have carried on our grumbly old selves.

On trawling the internet on what was being said about us, this site came up. Most shrugged their shoulders, I thought it was important to try and explain. We're not a bunch of crazy militants, we're a bunch of aircraft engineers of one sort or another, who on the whole have done their 22 years, who continue to do the job they've done all their lives, to the standards they've always employed, just as many of you are on here I would guess. Or if not now sometime later. Difference is your boss hasn't got race horses to buy like mine and needs all the cash he can get and isn't too fussy how he gets it.

[vortexadminman]

Think thats his point. If it had still been all REME run the chaps or chapesses at MW or WATT would all be on the same dosh!!! Simples:ugh:

[Nortyboy]

One last thing, on the subject of ruthless mercenaries holding the country to ransom: we've been told that for every aircraft that goes out ON TIME, a 1million bonus gets paid. Thats over 30million a year on top of the usual rate. And here we are quibling about 3k over 3 years. Ooh me bad:=

[jamesdevice]

"for every aircraft that goes out ON TIME, a 1million bonus gets paid"
It'll never happen. Nothing goes out on time...

[SirPeterHardingsLovechild]

NortyBoy / NortyBouy ?

Someone's being Norty

[glad rag]

I'm with you, (well 20 months actually) sometimes you gotta get on the train etc.

[NortyBouy]

Boy/ Bouy.... ooh err? Dunno what happened there???

[RileyDove]

Well the contracting market is looking up so the days of companies holding the rates down will not last for much longer! Many of these rates have stayed the same for 5 years plus! The cost of living decidedly hasnt !

[NortyBouy]

Guys you have to stop looking at from your point of view. The question is 'your boss has ****** you over, what will you do?' Thats my point of view. I have to live with the cosiquenes until I leave. Its more than just cancelling a display as someone on here thought so heinous. More than just ' the contract field is picking up'. This is my last comment. I hope you understand a bit better. The openining comments to this thread were quite hurtfull. Everyone we've spoken too and explained our side has realised we're not to blame. We have a nasty greedy company thats all. Its all legal and above board. On top of the the 14 million wage bill, our dispute will cost 30k. The company will get 1 billion just in bonus's over 3 years. Sadly for some of u ppruners, I feel i'm not so greedy and shoudn't be shot for mutiny as you'd like. Regards. Norty.

[HUMS]

The company will get 1 billion just in bonus's over 3 years

Really? Source ?

and which company, AW or Wynnwith ?

[RileyDove]

Who cares ! if you work for a contract company your not a full time employee -your on contact end of story! You have as much loyalty to who you work for as they have to you ! So when a job offers you a few quid more you jump -you have no sentiment about it! Believe me its a harsh world when they want to get rid of people or change working practices so get used to it!

Contracting is all about making as much money as you can until the contract finishes -end of story !

[Trim Stab]

I find this a rather sad thread. It encapsulates everything that is wrong with modern capitalism. I'm not criticising NortyBoy or any other contributors on the thread - they have been put in this position by the legacy of "management consultants" who have decimated values such as pride in service, community service, teamwork, common values etc for the mantras of competitive contracting to the lowest bidder. It is a policy that has wrecked communities and societies by destroying job security and social stability, and pushed disproportionate wealth into the hands of the mean and ruthless.

[barnstormer1968]

Maybe I'm not seeing things right, but trim just made perfect sense to me:eek:

In a wider overview of the 'real' norty's problems, a politician (or several) are actually to blame here. IF the UK had ordered a sensible amount of spares and infrastructure for the helicopters Norty works on, there would be no need for silly 'on time' bonuses, and late airframes would not have the same impact on frontline strength (in the eyes of media that may have an agenda to bear, rather than real numbers).

From recent memory there has been much debate within PPRuNe of how hard the UK struggle to send a few airframes anywhere on operations. If we had more serviceable frames with appropriate spares (not total airframes), this may not be an issue.

Bear in mind all my info was learned from my armchair, and not on the shop floor 'in real life'

[Jane-DoH]

Certain things shouldn't be privatized