Protecting one's bonce [Archive]

The500man

23rd Aug 2011, 15:41

I've been looking into finding a headset for a high-noise environment. Spending a bit of time on the search function revealed that a good number of pilots speak well of the Clarity Aloft. I did see a post though that claimed it doesn't protect your hearing because it doesn't shield the bones around the ear. I have no clue whether that would be the case but an alternative solution would be a helmet of some sort to clamp a standard headset tighter on my head. The Clarity Aloft claims to be better than an ANR headset, but would it be better than a PNR or ANR headset in a helmet? Anybody use a PNR headset with a leather or proper helmet? Or does everyone use ANR in their helmets?

When it comes to helmets for the sake of protecting your bonce, is it really worth it? The helicopter style helmets I see people using don't look like they are going to provide much protection. If you are able to smack your head on the instrument panel for example, those helmets don't look like they will help you much. Am I missing something? Some of the helmets I've seen are ridiculously expensive. Anyone know where I might find cheapish ones? Is there a place to buy surplus or ex-RAF stuff? (since they are getting cut-back presumably they have to off-load their gear somewhere?)

Thanks.

Heliport

23rd Aug 2011, 16:29

Lots of info and reviews here:

http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/110753-helmets-should-you-19.html

stiknruda

23rd Aug 2011, 20:39

love my Clarity Aloft but they are v fragile (oh - they have broken again!). Currentky flying with a Mk 10 RAF Aircrew helmet (Alpha aviation) - works well but dont have the clarity of my Clarity's.

Rarely use the visors but then I don't wear sunglasses too often.

HTH

Stik

eharding

23rd Aug 2011, 20:56

Communications & Ear Protection, Inc. (http://www.cep-usa.com)

For those who prefer clarity when aloft but who prefer a lid to hopefully keep the bits that belong in the bonce where they belong, and bits that don't belong there out of it, should you be required to slam your noggin violently around the cockpit.

Far more effective than ANR in truly high-noise environments, and for a laughably small amount of dosh.

I must confess to being without my CEP earpieces at the moment, having lent them to a mate who lost the previous pair I lent him, when the CEP-equipped Russian helmet he was wearing fell over the side of his rice-burning Yak-imitation when he decided to stick his head out on landing without checking the chin-strap was done up. Naming no names....Bob.

SDB73

23rd Aug 2011, 21:47

Be very careful with helmets. Speaking from a motorsport perspective, you need the entire safety package to be compatible before a safety measure is really safe - this includes cabin layout, belts, seats, etc

Even then, and accident is so chaotic that it's difficult to be sure any isolated safety measure will make things better or worse. For instance, the mass of a helmet could kill you through neck injuries or simply because it causes you to hit the panel when you might not have otherwise.

Of course a helmet could also save your life, 100%, but just don't be sure it's a completely clean cut decision.

Generally, a well fitting, extremely light, full-face helmet will be better in most situations (especially if you don't have a full harness). But very few of us are going to fly around looking like the stig! (apologies to the non-Brits who may need to google "the stig"!)

It flies

24th Aug 2011, 06:44

I did see a post though that claimed it doesn't protect your hearing because it doesn't shield the bones around the ear.Has anyone found a more or less definitive answer to this question? I searched for "bone conduction" but found no clear cut answer to whether this is a problem in light aircraft. At the airfield the other day I heard someone else mention this as a problem with the Clarity's too.

I fly mainly aerobatic and open cockpit aeroplanes where the ANR headsets according to quite a few posts seem unable to cope. I have been riding motorcycles for twenty years and always found that good earplugs are a must and work very well. A helmet would work but I don't like the extra weight during aerobatics.

So, would the combination of a Clarity Aloft and a cloth helmet with a disconnected headset or even earmuffs from the DIY store work and offer the best protection for this sort of flying? Has anyone tried this setup? Is there a reason this would not work?

dobbin1

24th Aug 2011, 09:07

I have a US Gentex helmet, with the optional earplugs. It is very light and the earplugs give excellent audio quality - they use the same ear buds as the Clarity Aloft system. Very little external noise gets through.

The500man

24th Aug 2011, 11:15

Well it sounds like the best possible protection is the CEP system in a helmet. That way you get a lid plus sealed ear cups plus in-ear plugs. Looking at the CEP link though it looks like the CEP plugs in on the outside of the lid and then presumably the cable goes to the plug in your ear. Doesn't this then mean that the cable goes between the ear cup seal in the lid and your head? Is that not a bit of an issue?

Has anyone found a more or less definitive answer to this question? I searched for "bone conduction" but found no clear cut answer to whether this is a problem in light aircraft. At the airfield the other day I heard someone else mention this as a problem with the Clarity's too.

We're probably not going to find a specialist to answer this on pprune but I wonder if a letter to a well known flying mag or two might get them to research an article on it? As stik has pointed out though that his set keeps breaking, that puts me off somewhat!

I have a US Gentex helmet

Where did you get it? The really long helmet thread linked above has links to US suppliers but none in the UK that I can see. Headset Services in Shoreham is the only supplier that gets much mention and not in a positive way. Anyone know how much a PNR Alpha costs from them? There's no price on their website.

Zulu Alpha

24th Aug 2011, 12:39

I find the best combination is the Clarity Aloft worn with a skydiving helmet that doesn't cover the ears.
It is cooler in hot weather and you can put the helmet on after the headset.

No idea about head protection but I have assumed that skydiving helmets should be quite good. In an accident I think you are most likely to be thrown forward so protecting the forehead is important.

Clarity Alofts are quite fragile as you have to remove the earpieces by pulling on the wires. Eventually they break. Fortunately CA are quite reasonable about warrantee claims and repairing them.

jxc

24th Aug 2011, 12:46

I have had my clarity aloft's for 2 years and they were 2nd hand when bought them (obviously new ear foam bits :yuk: ) never had a problem with them

The500man

24th Aug 2011, 13:09

with a skydiving helmet that doesn't cover the ears.

Do you mean something like this? Gath Helmets UK - Kayak Helmets, Canoeing Helmets, Skydiving HelmetsGedi Flame /Matt Black (http://www.gathhelmets.co.uk/products/gedi/gedi-flame-matt-black/21)

SDB73

24th Aug 2011, 13:18

In an accident I think you are most likely to be thrown forward so protecting the forehead is important.

Problem is; If you protect your forehead with extra mass (eg. a helmet), your head will be thrown further forward in the same accident, and so will be more likely to impact the panel / sun visor, possibly on an unprotected area, like the face. Making the sun visor more padded would be a better solution in most cases.

J.A.F.O.

24th Aug 2011, 13:41

Caps & Hats (http://www.aero-ist.co.uk/Shop/department/caps_hats/)

Perhaps a halfway house, at least for everyday bumps.

eharding

24th Aug 2011, 13:55

Problem is; If you protect your forehead with extra mass (eg. a helmet), your head will be thrown further forward in the same accident, and so will be more likely to impact the panel / sun visor, possibly on an unprotected area, like the face. Making the sun visor more padded would be a better solution in most cases.

Cloth Helmet + DC 10/30 = 705g

Large HGU/55P (Kevlar) + Oregon Aero Innards + CEP = 1128g

Weight of the average human head ~4500g

By my math, the total increased mass of head plus headgear increases by about 8% (depending on the size of your noggin) for taking the added protection afforded by the Gentex. Factor in not just the protection against a simple forward impact (for example when you jump over the side, slamming your head against parts of the airframe and, in due course, the ground) then it becomes a....er...no-brainer.

I know a chap who made a precautionary landing into a field in an Extra 300 a while back. His head (thankfully in a helmet) removed the throttle lever, amongst other things. By your logic, you would need to fill the cockpit entirely with foam rubber, rather than opt for the headgear.

But the decision is a personal one - but having some solid numbers to work on helps.

SDB73

24th Aug 2011, 15:41

eharding,

Absolutely, your logic stacks up, and as you say it's a personal decision. I just wanted to make sure people didn't think it was as simple as "put on a helmet and I'm safer".

The500man

24th Aug 2011, 20:17

Headset Services charge £1400 + VAT for the Alpha 900 without ANR, and the lead time is 10-12 weeks! The US supplier of Gentex do the HGU55/E with CEP for about £1000 but they don't ship internationally. Anyone know if I could order one shipped to the US and then export it to the UK? I saw something about export papers in that long thread. Would this still be the case for private shipping? Where would I find out about this?

I'd rather not spend quite that much, but I'm sure I would feel differently if I did have a serious accident.

eharding

24th Aug 2011, 20:31

Regarding the Gentex, you could just phone FlightSuits in the US and ask them what the current export situation is. They did make and ship my custom-fit HGU55, but that was a few years ago now (and there was export hassle even back then).

I'd forgotten about the Peltor helmet solution suggested in the thread that motivated me to get out the kitchen scales:

http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/439855-best-helmet-aerobatics.html

Certainly worth giving Peltor a ring.

dobbin1

25th Aug 2011, 07:57

I bought my Gentex last year from here:-

Flight Helmets - Flight Suits - Aviation Helmets (http://www.aviationhelmets.com/)
AKA Government Sales Inc

Very good service, a good choice of colours and very helpful.

They made all the shipping arrangements - all I had to do was pay the VAT and duty. The cost was $1,080 including bag, two visors, CEP kit and shipping, but not including VAT and Duty - can't remember how much that was. The total was less than £1,000 though

The CEP wires are very thin and do not have any effect on the earcup seal.

Wessex Boy

25th Aug 2011, 10:58

Thanks for the Mention JAFO, the Flight Caps are a popular choice for the non-aerobatic aviator and look like a normal Baseball cap, so you don't have to paint 'Maverick' on the side of your C152/PA28

They are particularly popular amongst the Rag 'n' Tube pilots as there tends to be a few protuding 'annoyances' to bang your bonce on both getting in and out of the aircraft as well as bouncing around on a turbulent day

Of course there are the Forrest Gump moments when I am glad of the protection, like closing the Canopy on the Rallye when I forget to duck...in fact one customer bought one purely for when he gets his Glider out of its trailor, so it is not just me!

It flies

25th Aug 2011, 10:59

The500man

25th Aug 2011, 12:27

I've sent a mail to Government Sales Inc. for a quote. If they can still ship them to the UK for under a grand in that configuration, and it's not gonna take 3 months then I think I might go with that. Any idea what the duty rate is? Otherwise the Clarity Aloft may have to do for now. Looks from this video though like the Clarity Aloft has a flimsy mic-boom!

qNtjOb9DTYs

Certainly worth giving Peltor a ring.

I'll look into this, but it sounds like I'd need to do some of the leg work to get CEP in it and a visor. Sounds like the cheapest option though.

eharding

25th Aug 2011, 13:15

The CEP website also shows an in-ear conversion for the David Clark Headset. This might be a 'good enough' option if a helmet seems perhaps overkill. Has anyone got experience with this conversion?

Yes - you just need to make sure you drill through a relatively flat area of the plastic ear-cup shell to take the CEP connector, because if you try fitting it to an area with a pronounced curve to the section it can be more difficult to attach the securing nut to the thread of the connector.

I'll look into this, but it sounds like I'd need to do some of the leg work to get CEP in it and a visor. Sounds like the cheapest option though.

The Peltor examples I've seen come fitted with snap-connectors to take the stock HGU-55 bungee visors, which are fairly easy and cheap to obtain. The CEP would be easier to fit at the stage they put the comms wiring into the helmet, so might be an idea to see if they could fit it for you.

Zulu Alpha

25th Aug 2011, 13:57

The issue with the Clarity Aloft is that you have to remove the earpieces by pulling gently on the wires. After a while the wire breaks internally and the earpiece stops working. This happens even if you are very gentle.

The only solution then is to send them back for repair. I have broken 3 sets over 7-8 yrs. Two were replaced free under warrantee and one was charged for.

Apart from this, they are the best solution for a noisy aerobatic aircraft that I have come across.

The500man

25th Aug 2011, 18:36

eharding

25th Aug 2011, 19:25

Government Sales Inc. do still ship to the UK, at an estimated cost of $55. A fully fit HGU55/P is $685 (+$100 for kevlar) and an installed CEP kit costs $175. Still not sure on the import duty, but I expect a delivered helmet would be around £700-800.

Haven't heard back from Peltor yet...

That does look like a good deal on the Gentex from Government Sales Inc.

Also worth asking if they can custom-fit the edge-roll for you - FlightSuits used to be able to do it if you sent them some basic measurements of your face (they used to have a process where by they sent you a kit to make a wax mould of your head, which you sent back to them. The moulds invariably broke in transit, so they gave up on the idea). The rest of the sizing for a custom fit involves different layers in the liners, but in my case I ended up ditching the stock Gentex liner and going with the Oregon Aero parts, which - at least back then - were far better than the Gentex ones. The part which really needs to be right at the time of manufacture is the edge-roll sizing.

PW Cooper

25th Aug 2011, 20:39

Any comments on the David Clark K10 series helmet?

eharding

25th Aug 2011, 21:04

Any comments on the David Clark K10 series helmet?

I bought a couple a few years back. Outrageously overpriced - even in a market segment where overpricing is the norm - for what they are.

The nape attachment does appear designed to sever your neck in the event of an accident, and they move around enough in relation to your head to restrict your vision to a laughable degree during spirited aeros. From a bonce-protection perspective, they are better than nothing, but IMHO likely to cause sufficient annoyance in short order that they remain at the back of the locker when you go flying, thus reducing the protective effect to zero.

Droopystop

26th Aug 2011, 17:13

Zulu Alpha,

The issue with the Clarity Aloft is that you have to remove the earpieces by pulling gently on the wires. After a while the wire breaks internally and the earpiece stops working. This happens even if you are very gentle.

The only solution then is to send them back for repair. I have broken 3 sets over 7-8 yrs. Two were replaced free under warrantee and one was charged for.

Apart from this, they are the best solution for a noisy aerobatic aircraft that I have come across.

I have never seen a Clarity Aloft set, but from the photos, it looks like the ear pieces are exactly the same as the CEP ones. CEP say that you mustn't pull the wire for the very reason you describe above. The newer mini CEPs are easier to get hold of to remove but agree that the ones on the Clarity Loft look difficult to remove without pulling the wire.

Sam Rutherford

26th Aug 2011, 17:31

I wear a helmet when in a helicopter (ex-army hang-up I think!).

I got mine (Gentex) on US eBay - cost about USD300 with double visors, CEP and 'only worn once' - certainly I couldn't tell that it wasn't new.

I got a local (I was in Florida) set-up to check it and adjust it for my head - another 60 bucks.

It's not as quiet as a Bose ANR, but close - very close. Certainly much, much quieter than any non-ANR headset I have tried.

So, take a look on US eBay - lots on there (but know what you're buying before you bid!).

Fly safe, Sam.

Droopystop

26th Aug 2011, 17:47

The 500 man....

There is little doubt that a properly (professionally) fitted helmet has good noise attenuation. But unless your environment is noisier than about 100dB I would suggest you can adequately protect your hearing without going to the expense and discomfort of wearing a helmet. I have tried a couple of types of helmet, ANR, CEPs, earplugs and a number of different type of headsets in high noise cockpits. The only real benefit a helmet seems to have is in reducing the lower frequencies (less than 125hz or so) which in ear style hearing protection begins to struggle with.

I don't know what sort of flying you are doing that you feel is sufficiently dangerous to wear a helmet. There might be some justification in the argument that wearing a helmet might increase the risk of crashing in the first place (due to distracting levels of discomfort, particularly on warm days). On the other hand if your type of flying has a higher chance of crashing, helmet or no helmet, then a helmet becomes desirable. But it would be worth looking a AAIB reports to determine how often a helmet might have prevented serious injury/death.

Getting helmets and hearing protection right is a real headache!!

The500man

26th Aug 2011, 20:53

Droopystop, I didn't think too much about wearing a helmet until an instructor handed me one to wear when I started to learn aerobatics, and then I didn't think too much about it afterwards, until I started to look into buying an aerobatic share, at which point I discovered how useless my passive headset was in a Pitts.

So I was looking into buying a decent headset which revealed good reviews for the Clarity Aloft. Which I could just buy and be done with it, however if you read some of that really long helmet thread linked on the previous page, there are some scary stories of not just crashes (there are some of course) but bird strikes as well where the pilot has lost an eye!

I think a helmet sounds like a good idea, and with the CEP option you are effectively gaining the benefit of the Clarity Aloft at the same time as some degree of bonce-protection, as well as whatever extra passive attenuation you get from the helmet shell.

The Clarity Aloft is about £425 and the Gentex helmet in Kevlar with CEP is £765. I'm leaning toward getting a helmet at the moment.

It flies

27th Aug 2011, 18:44

@eharding

Has the fitment of the CEP kit changed the impedance of the headset? The standard David Clark H10-13.4 has an impedance of 150 Ohms (2x 300 Ohm earphones wired in parallel)

Thanks.

PW Cooper

27th Aug 2011, 20:31

I considered the DC K10 series helmet as I had a spare 10-40 to use but having done a bit more research am looking for a Gentex HGU55. HSL at Shoreham advertise the name but I couldn't find this series or a price. Any idea how much they charge for a ready to use civilianised version?
Not going to get in to the argument of whether or not to wear a helmet but a new share has lots of metal around my upper body and plenty of opportunity for my head to contact it so a no brainer for me really.

The500man

28th Aug 2011, 12:09

Has the fitment of the CEP kit changed the impedance of the headset? The standard David Clark H10-13.4 has an impedance of 150 Ohms (2x 300 Ohm earphones wired in parallel)

The helmets use the same impedance earphones so I can't see it being a problem.

having done a bit more research am looking for a Gentex HGU55. HSL at Shoreham advertise the name but I couldn't find this series or a price.

Flight Helmets - Flight Suits - Aviation Helmets (http://aviationhelmets.com/)

If you buy it from HSL you can bet they will import it for you and mark it up somewhat. The guys above quoted me approx. $55 to ship to the UK. I phoned HMRC for the commodity code (I don't have it to hand) and they said the import duty and tax would be 2.7% + the standard VAT rate. That means you could get a fibreglass HGU55 for about £600 delivered to the UK or as I said above £765 for a Kevlar HGU55 with CEP.

Wide-Body

28th Aug 2011, 13:29

Hi 500 man

Remember to think what you want the helmet to do. I consider my biggest risk, being formation flying and having a collision. Then bailing out and hitting my head on the tail. (thanks Rob Davis for showing the Strong model 304 is a good purchase).

The following is from the gentex website.

CAUTION_ HGU-33, HGU-55, HGU-55/E and HGU-68 helmets have been designed for use in fixed-wing aircraft. They offer limited impact protection. Users with other applications should consider helmets with greater impact protection designed specifically for their application.

They are designed to protect a pilot in the event of using the ejection seat.

I have an Alpha Eagle, Gentex and DC bonedome. If it fits in the ac with me I will use the Eagle due to its significantly higher impact protection. The Gentex is great, but when it comes to protecting your bonce its in a different league. The Gentex is cheaper for a reason.

HSL have gone down hill since they were taken over(own personal opinion), but I believe Alpha have taken over direct marketing.

When flying with a pax I think its nice to give them a bonedome and chute too. However now the price really starts to rock up.

Good luck, but do think about what you are getting for the money. I have been through this in depth and I would never buy a second hand helmet. If they have not been cared for, the impact protection can be greatly limited. A simple sand and pait does not repair the integrity. Sorry to complicate your decision.

stiknruda

28th Aug 2011, 14:52

When flying with a pax I think its nice to give them a bonedome and chute too. However now the price really starts to rock up.

Hell - I just give mine a photo or a vid if they are uber-cute! That does seem extremely generous!

;)

Stik

The500man

28th Aug 2011, 14:59

Sorry to complicate your decision.

Yeah thanks! I agree with you about second hand helmets. I found an interesting research report on the Oregon Aero upgrades for the Gentex helmet http://www.dtic.mil/cgi-bin/GetTRDoc?Location=U2&doc=GetTRDoc.pdf&AD=ADA383420. The upgrades aren't very expensive, and it sounds like they're worth it.

From my perspective I'm looking for hearing protection first and bonce-protection second. Every time I fly the hearing protection will be useful, and maybe I'll never have any need for the helmet, but it could be useful. I don't think it's easy to predict where you may smack your head or how it may be crushed in a light aircraft crash, so I really don't know whether the Gentex would be sufficient or not.

I can't really justify the cost of the Alpha 900, and I'm not convinced that it costs that much more because it's that much better, or if it's down to the fact that it's sold by only one distributor.

BoeingExile

20th Oct 2011, 15:11

Does anybody know if an Alpha eagle is small enough to be used in a Pitts S2A?

The500man

20th Oct 2011, 19:51

Not tried the Alpha in a S-2A but it is fine in an S-2C. I'm just over 6ft and have only donked my head once or twice when sitting in the back of the S-2C when my straps weren't particularly tight.

Personally I went with an HGU-55 in the end, which thankfully made it through customs without any trouble. I think the final damage was about £785 all in.

It flies

6th Nov 2011, 13:21

eharding

6th Nov 2011, 15:10

This has been a very useful thread. One thing still not clear to me is whether it is possible to convert a David Clark headset in such a way that using the CEP's is optional. For a flight in a tourer I'm happy to use the standard DC. For the Pitts I would rather use the earplugs. Is this the standard installation or would I need to improvise if I wanted this setup?

The stock kit that CEP supply for fitting to an HGU-55 helmet will work perfectly with the standard DC ear-cup shell - you just need to make sure you drill the hole in an area with minimal curvature, so that the socket fits flush with the surface (and you have sufficient screw thread on the inside available to fit the securing nut). Actually, easier to fit to a DC headset than a helmet, in my experience.

It flies

6th Nov 2011, 15:26

The stock kit that CEP supply for fitting to an HGU-55 helmet will work perfectly with the standard DC ear-cup shellYes, I understand. So do I understand correctly that after fitting the CEP kit the standard ear cup speakers will still work. So I then can connect the earplugs if required without changing anything?

I looked at the fitting instructions and e-mailed CEP USA about this but got no reply.

eharding

6th Nov 2011, 23:27

So do I understand correctly that after fitting the CEP kit the standard ear cup speakers will still work. So I then can connect the earplugs if required without changing anything?

Yes, and yes. The standard speakers continue to work perfectly if you don't connect the CEP earpieces, and you don't need to change anything to use the CEP system - just plug the earpieces into your ears (in cold weather, warm them first), don headset/helmet, plug other end into the socket on the outside of the headset/helmet. Sorted.