Cirrus SR20/22

[rocket66]

Hi folks,

was at the bundy show on the weekend with a friend (who is well off) that wants to buy an aircraft. After much deliberation he has decided that a cirrus is the most appealing aircraft for the purpose he would like to use it for.

I have never had anythhing to do with buying an aircraftso I figured I'd ask the ppruners. First of all is it beneificial to source one from the states and have it shipped here or just source one in aus. From what I can see it seems you can pick up a good buy in the US, just not sure on shipping/rego costs etc once here.

Also, what is everyones opinion of these aircraft. The look and feel nice to sit in but I've never flown one. Thanks in advance guys for the feedback.

Rocket

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

Also, what is everyones opinion of these aircraft.

Don't leave it out in the sun! :E

Dr :8

[rioncentu]

Yeah I'd second Dr.'s opinion there.

There are some seriously cheap ones around used. Cirrus makes no apologies that they bring out new models just like cars and many folk just keep on upgrading to the new models.

The used ones drop to scary prices in just a few years.

Heck as the Dr. will attest to, for little more than our 30 year old Bo's and 210's etc. you can get a Cirrus only a few years old.

So they sure are value for money.

However, I am not sure what they will look like when they have the years/hours on them that our Bo's and 210's have now.

They fly nice. All the toys. Fast. But yeah I hired one for about 20 hours as I was keen to buy one, but couldn't live with it. Got a 210 instead !!

[rocket66]

Dr I assume your referring sheepishly to the composite wings etc that break down if left in the sun for years??? Hadn't thought about that but this sucker will have a box to puT it in.

Yes I noticed they dropped in value rather quickly. It's a tax write off anyway (depreciation) so that'll help!! Any idea on shipping it over and the dreaded CASA rego etc!

Rocket

[1a sound asleep]

How much can we spend for this friend? I find the plastic planes fast cramped and well, just plastic. Id rather spend serious money on an A36 or something you can use in Australia like a 182 loaded with luxuries

[PyroTek]

I was talking to a relatively new A36 Bonanza owner a few months ago. He mentioned that he was very close to buying a Cirrus. He met another A36 owner, and was taken for a flight and had a chat about the Bo', compared to the Cirrus. He was quickly convinced that buying an A36 was a much better choice in the end.

On the other hand, the DAME I use to do my medicals, tells me he loves his Cirrus.

All a matter of opinion I guess.:ok:

[TBM-Legend]

good enough for the US Air Force to buy them to replace their old Cessnas' at the USAF Academy.:ok:

[gassed budgie]

Have done just on 200hrs in an SR22 over the last 12 months, so some personal impressions.
Hard seats, nowhere to hide from the sun on a hot day, very loud in the cabin (absolutely, positively don't forget your headset), relatively easy to fly and land once you get used to the side stick controller (a gimmick courtesy of the marketing department at Cirrus), not as fast as some might suggest. Look for around 165 ktas running lean of peak. Rich of peak it runs along at around 172 ktas with a 5 usg/hr increase in the fuel flow.
The IO-550 installation in the Cirrus runs exceptionally smooth whilst running LOP. No lean of peak roughness whatsoever.
I have an overwhelming urge at times to pull the panic handle in the middle of the cabin ceiling, just to see what happens. After this feeling subsides, I gingerly replace the pin and cover, just in case something does in fact go bang.
Flew a brand new SR22 about six months ago and I have to say I was mightly impressed by the Garmin 1000 package and the digital autopilot. It flew the thing like it was on rails. Having said that, when the owner was flying the aircraft later in the day, he was that busy operating the system he torgot to look outside and sailed right on past Morrabbin!
The later Cirrus's are a definite step above the earlier machines and are nice machine to fly. Just don't take to close a look up under the panel or ahead of the firewall, otherwise you might notice all of those cheap fittings and connections that Cirrus has a tendency to use.

[gassed budgie]

....bummer, wrong button on the iPhone.
Having said all of that, give me the 29 year old 210 sitting here in the hangar. Probably one of the best things Cessna ever did. 100lbs lighter empty than the Cirrus, but flies out 600lbs heavier than the SR22. Just as quick with an hours more fuel on board and two extra seats way down the back. Load wise, they just can't be touched.
I would expect to still be flying the 210 in another 29 years, but I couldn't say the same thing about the Cirrus.

[rocket66]

He's been approved for $200k. I'd like to fly one just to see what they're like. The bean counters have told him to look at it in order to lower his tax so the rapid depreciation is not a big issue.

I've got to say the avionics and systems impress me. People say they're good so long as you like flying places on AP but seriously, there is an off button there somewhere.

Maintenence wise, do they have any expensive parts? I'm wondering if the auto CSU can cause another expense come maintenence time etc? I'm trying to steer him towards a SR22 for the extra speed. Price differences are there but for what he wants to use it for I thinks it's a better option. He is an industrial welder and works all over QLD. The idea is to get myself to buzz him around while learning then eventually take it himself.

Also what are some good Aussie web sites to look around on. I've been using controller.com but of course it's all US based stuff.


Rocket

[717tech]

I've got about 100 hours in a SR22, great to fly.... when they are out of the hanger! Too many sensors on the engine that tend to break very soon after maintenance, plus the spare parts are not cheap. There is a "Master" control box (computer?) FWD of the firewall that also constantly has issues.

Love to fly them but sure glad I dont own one!!

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Rocket66:

Have a talk to some owners. Have a talk to a couple of service centres that maintain Cirrus Aircraft. Also, go for a flight in a Cirrus yourself. The above owners or the dealer would be happy to take you for a flight.

My guess is there must be a reason why the Cirrus SR20/SR22 series has been the best selling 4 seat aircraft for many years.

IF the C182 or A36 were seriously better, the sales figures would reflect that. :rolleyes::rolleyes:

2010 Deliveries:

Mooney: 2
Cessna Corvalis series: 8
A36 series: 22
DA40 series: 57
Cessna C182 series: 100

Cirrus SR20/SR22 series: 264

[ForkTailedDrKiller]

My guess is there must be a reason why the Cirrus SR20/SR22 series has been the best selling 4 seat aircraft for many years.Yes, you will generally find that disposable products are significantly cheaper and therefore out-sell their more permanent "equivalents" - and I use that word in the broadest possible sense cause I can't think of a better one.

Dr :8

[1a sound asleep]

Tax deductible deprecation doesnt work - you are still losing money if a Cirrus goes down $50,000 more than a metal plane.

My money would go on a nice 182. Will fly anywhere in Australia in huge comfort still be a better investment than any Cirrus

I would be looking for this sort of thing if he only has $200k
2005 CESSNA 182T SKYLANE Piston Single Aircraft For Sale At Controller.com (http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/CESSNA-182T-SKYLANE/2005-CESSNA-182T-SKYLANE/1209499.htm?)

http://www.controller.com/images/Controller/fullsize/87906902.jpg

[Aye Ess]

http://i1032.photobucket.com/albums/a401/alan_spears/Cirrusx1.jpg?t=1314146448

Painting acrylic on stretched canvas 61cm x 76cm.

[VH-XXX]

I like the Cirrus, the way it flies, it's performance and it's modernness.

Word of advice if buying a new one - Always get references before buying an aircraft from an aircraft importer. PM for further info if required on that one.

You MUST hangar it or have a suitable cover on it. The plastic interior does not go well in the outdoors over a long period. The dash will fall apart and the whole thing will start to look very un-tidy by 1,000 hours.

Apart from that, fun to fly, easy to fly and if you like to pretend you are flying an airliner, then it's great for what you want. The geek's trick is to try and come as close as you can to landing it without touching the controls.

Con's:

If you don't manage the engine properly with fuel, you'll be up for a lot of cash in a very short space of time. Don't trust the engine management figures on the screens; you are better off going by fuel flow for safety.

Doesn't stand up well to punishment and a harsh sun. Plastics buckle and windows go cloudy.

Dash top can't handle being pulled out for servicing, by 1,000+ hours it will barely be hanging on.

Seats don't stand up to large passengers, the bottom falls out of them.

The leather inserts in the seats don't appear to be proper leather.

Desperately needs a rudder trim and doesn't have one.

Door handles on the older models are a p-rick and won't last (the newer push-button ones are better).

Centre console hinges are crap.

The SR20 has bugger-all payload - may as well buy a Jabiru. Pretty much can't practically put 4 people in it.

People keep touching and scratching the Avidyne nav screens. Not really a con but might be annoying if you're buying second hand. They are NOT touchscreen's people!!!

Can be a bit tricky for first-timers as you can't flare it or you'll hit the tail on the ground.

Models frequently change. A turbo normalised version came out, next thing a full turbo is released and many current owners were p-i-s-s-e-d.

The SR22 is a thirsty bugger.


Pro's -

TAS in the SR20 around 143-148 up top. Fuel burn about 11.2gph.
TAS in the SR22 as stated in earlier post.
Nice to fly, a little heavy in the controls at low speed, but otherwise good.
Autopilot is easy to use and virtually flies itself (need some manual rudder - refer to comments above on rudder trim).
Great for 195 knot beatups of your local airfield (SR20 or 22)
SR22 has power to burn, high climb rate and short takeoff ~400 metres asl.
Fun to fly and not complex to learn it - lands very flat, no flare required.

[rocket66]

Lads thanks for all the info, it will most certianly be hanagred. I'll go and fly one and see what they're like. As I mentioned it will be flying all over SE QLD so the extra payload and speed of the 22 would be of benefit.

Rocket

[rocket66]

Ok lads, test flying an SR20 on Saturday week. I'll see how it goes however I'm still keen on the SR22 figures more so than the 20.

Does anyone have any info on shipping one in from the US. Like I mentioned earlier, never looked at shipping one in so I'm not really sure where to start.

Thanks,


Rocket

[QFF]

Have a look at this (http://www.royalaeroclubwa.com.au/files/files/racwaTarmacTopics/pdffile/2011.05.pdf) - page 12.

[dude65]

From what I can tell 200k doesn't buy a hell of a lot down at the local Cirrus dealer.

[VH-XXX]

Be aware if you are looking at an older model Cirrus that the wings aren't removable and they MUST be flown over unless you're looking at deck freight and that sounds like a logistical nightmare.

Stretching my memory a little however I "think" some of the early Avidyne models had the one-piece wing but not for long.

I wouldn't so much concentrate on how it flies on your test flight, but rather the cost of running, ownership, maintenance issues, known Cirrus issues, insurance, hangarage, payload, fuel burn and other items that will affect your decision.

Don't let the glitz and glamour of an electronic panel glaze your eyes and affect your decision based on what is essentially cosmetics. You can pretty much fit a glass panel in anything these days so don't get sucked in.

I agree with you on the numbers for the 22. A far superior aircraft in terms of speed, performance and payload, BUT you're in different territory with increased fuel burn and running costs, not to mention that you can buy a similar performing 6 seater for less.

That is a good article posted above:

Table starting with asking price of US$299k.
Purchase price US$275k. USD 96cents for a 2006 model with 490hrs and air con.
At $275k (AUD$286k) Total cost at home registered and ready to fly $376,850, approximately $100,000 more than it cost!

AUD$
Purchase $286,500
Ferry trip $23,000
C of A $12,000
Training $4,000
US/Oz agents $2,000
Accessories $5,000
Insurance $14,350
GST $30,000
TOTAL $376,850

[rocket66]

Yep thought that importing would be pricey. The aircraft is for a friend of mine whom is yet to be licensed. The plan is he'll do his training while I can buzz him around in it until he's up to standard.

Pricewise 200k is the limit. It's was his decision to go with cirrus. I'm not too phased by the technology in them alought in saying that I can't wait to have a play.

Our biggest problem/worry is maintenece costs. Parts I'm told are reasonably cheap, but the question is how often do they require replacement parts? It's a bit of a wide question I know but I'm a pruner will know.

Next on the list is insurance. Who insures aircraft and what premiums can we expect?

Thanks for the info lads it's super helpful at the moment.

Rocket

[VH-XXX]

I know of a 20 that I think is going for sub $150k.

[VH-XXX]

I'm told many times over that that argument doesnt stand up. Have come across a few places using them online for abintio, with the only main issue being the extra costs. Aside from being heavy on the controls at low speeds they are not a complex aircraft to fly. The student doesn't know any different so the higher speed won't put him off.

[rocket66]

Yeah was thinking about that. I don't have any instructional experience so I'm not sure. I suggested he start in a 172 and go from there. There's a lot more GA aircraft around with the usual control coloumn than the sidestick, unless ofcourse we make it to a personal f16.

Trying to steer him towards the basics of keeping the thing onthe air then perhaps use it for his navs. Than again with the technology inboard in the cirrus, the 172 might be better in that regard too.


Rocket

[rutan around]

Heard that one bloke who traded in his older Cirrus for the latest all singing all dancing model has been paying on average $12,000 for each 100 hrly. YIKES!!! Makes C210 100hrlys look like a small change deal.

[paulsalem]

I have a friend selling a 2008 SR-22 GTS, "N" registered, based in Singapore. PM me if anyone is interested.

[aerorrancio]

Buy a CIRRUS without any doubt but no TURBO because give a lot of problems.

[lilflyboy262]

If speed is what you are concerned about, get a C210 and do the Bonair conversion on it which bores the engine out from 520 to 550.
You easily start cruising up around the yellow arc.

Engine handling becomes a bit of an issue though due to the weaker cyclinders.

[rutan around]

Liflyboy 262
Where did you get the idea an io550 is a bored out io520 ? You would have to bore it out 152 thou. approx 10 times normal max oversize. Piston inspection would be easy though-you should be able to see it through the cylinder wall. Seriously now an io550 is a different engine and as stated does wonders for a C210's performance. The "P" model io550 is very good with it's over the top balanced induction air intakes. High CHT's are not an issue as it can run smoothly LOP just about as far as you want to go.You simply choose a nice compromise between temps and speed.
Cheers RA

[lilflyboy262]

I'm going to go ahead and remove my foot from my mouth now.
That'll teach me for listening to people from the african bush :E

[Wally Mk2]

Even though 'rutun' is correct re the 550 not being a bored out 520 one can gain cubes by stroking also.............hmmm that sounds naughty:E


Wmk2

[baswell]

Looks like I might be in the same boat as the original poster's friend soon.

So lots of negatives on durability and cost of maintenance of a Cirrus here.

What about other more modern 4-seater aircraft? I guess there are not that many; Cessna Corvalis, Diamond DA40, what else?

Tried the latter on for size at Oshkosh. Bit squeezier than the SR-20, but other than that seems fine. I like the back door and visibility. Any comment?

I am just so not a C172/182 kinda guy...

RV-10 seems like a very good option too, though harder to buy second hand?

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Baswell:

I suggest you might get a more accurate account of Corvalis, Cirrus and Diamond aircraft from some ACTUAL aircraft owners of the above types.

I suggest you also chat to some ACTUAL service centres of the above aircraft. The LAMEs will give you an accurate idea of the real costs and schedule of critical maintenance costs.

Pros and cons for all types;

There are not enough Corvalis types around in this Country for comparison and the sales figures have been dismal.

A Diamond with close to 2000 hours TT will be quite an expensive purchase!.

As is a Cirrus that is 9 years old and 11 months!.

However, such aircraft are usually priced with this already allowed for. - But, buyer beware....

Had a chat to the Cirrus Service Centre at YMMB. No current Cirrus Authorised Service Centre has EVER charged $12,000 for a 100 hour Inspection. Good Guy. Look him up and have a chat about all things Cirrus. He won't hold back and sugar coat.

Good Luck and have fun with your future aircraft.....whatever it is.

[rocket66]

RFG

I struggle to see how a parachut repack could cost $12k also. The dealer we have been dealing with has actually advised us that aircraft nearing the 10 year old mark will require the repack and he also says allow 12k for it.

The comments on here have been great, it looks like we'll be looking at 7 or 8 year old models so once purchased that will be allowed for.

In a previous comment I read that to allow for maintenence/fuel/insurance etc to multiply the fuel cost per litre by 3. The cost is than approx 3X the fuel burn per hour of flying. Has anyone used a formula like this before and does it work??

Rocket

[QFF]

Rocket & Baswell,

Can I respectfully suggest perhaps looking at joining one of the owner groups online - most of which are able to provide heaps of pre-purchase advice which will more than pay for the initial membership outlay?

Just like Cessna, Beech & Mooney pilots associations, a quick google search reveals Cirrus Owners and Pilots Association (http://www.cirruspilots.org/)

[notmyC150v2]

The Evektor Cobra would be a beauty. It's just a shame they aren't producing them other than special orders... :(

[Rich-Fine-Green]

Rocket 66;

I'm not sure of the full details of the repack. However, I understand it includes a new chute, a new rocket, panels etc. Apparently the old chute goes back to the USA (repack or destruction?).

The Melbourne Service centre (Blue Demon) also told me there is a dangerous goods shipping cost included (huge dollars!) and a government imposed DG disposal levy on the old rocket.

Again, the very best advice on service would be from the Factory Trained LAMEs: Mark in Melbourne and Andy in Brisbane.

You are welcome to PM me for their numbers if you like. I have found both guys open and honest.

Have fun in whatever you buy.

If you end up choosing a Cirrus, I suggest you also get one of the above guys to have a look at the aircraft first rather than a LAME that has no experience with the type (Before the guns come out - I'm not suggesting other LAMEs are negligent...).

[VH-XXX]

There are plenty of other LAME's out there servicing Cirrus aircraft, for example The Aviation Centre at Tyabb.

It is a composite aircraft with a Continental engine, CS Prop and an Avidyne or Gamin display, nothing complex there. As long as your LAME can work on composites and at least it's not carbon so no extra cost surprises there. The only benefit of the Cirrus authorised centres apart from tearing you a new one, would be warranty work and that won't apply in this instance.

[QFF]

The Melbourne Service centre (Blue Demon) also told me there is a dangerous goods shipping cost included (huge dollars!) and a government imposed DG disposal levy on the old rocket. wouldn't it be cheaper to just let it off :}

[Rich-Fine-Green]

There are plenty of other LAME's out there servicing Cirrus aircraft, for example The Aviation Centre at Tyabb.

All due respect to The Aviation Centre and others...

However, if I had an advanced and newer aircraft as a Cirrus or Diamond, I would only trust a factory trained LAME.

Maybe a few more $ is worth it for reliability. I'm sure the Factory trained guys know all the little things that keep a Diamond or Cirrus in the air and not on the ground...

I would also make sure the workshop has a current subscription to all the type's maintenance data (some don't!).

Again, that's not a slur on the ability of the Aviation Center or whether they have current data or not. Furthermore, if they have had factory training on Diamond or Cirrus then I stand corrected.

[baswell]

The Evektor Cobra would be a beauty. It's just a shame they aren't producing them other than special orders...
Sounds like they are planning to be fully certified some time next year, currently delivering as experimental.

Around $350K delivered in Oz including GST. With 200 horses with CSU and six pack with Garmin stack. 500 KG usable, tons of fuel. Would probably want to pay for upgrade to newer GPS, if they offer, and add CDI/GS and A/P to make it an IFR beast.

Quite a reasonable amount of aircraft for the money. But its more than we are looking at spending. An around $200K second hand aircraft would be better.

[jas24zzk]

Thought this might be of interest on the cirrus umbrella pack.


"How Do They Do It?" Cirrus Airframe Parachute System (CAPS) - YouTube

[Flying Ted]

Rocket 66, did your friend buy a Cirrus? Which one? Is she happy with it?

[extralite]

The "friend" who pays $12k for a service above should try somewhere else. $3.5 for my last cirrus service and that included diagnosing a small issue with bluetooth connectivity and aircon.

Love the Cirrus. Comfortabe safe travel once i mastered the g1000.

[On eyre]

How come so many secondhand Cirri for sale in Aviation Trader ? A disproportionate number I would have thought. People not happy or hidden problems ?

[StickWithTheTruth]

How come so many secondhand Cirri for sale in Aviation Trader ? A disproportionate number I would have thought. People not happy or hidden problems ?

I must admit that I thought you were dreaming when I read this, however you are spot on... 17 Cirrus versus 5 C172's.

Interesting observation. I honestly thought there would be a lot more 172's on there as a sample aircraft.

[Karunch]

How come so many secondhand Cirri for sale in Aviation Trader ? A disproportionate number I would have thought. People not happy or hidden problems ?

Existing customers upgrading to G6. Some big bills start to roll in as they age, not evident in the newer aircraft service costs.

[StickWithTheTruth]

Existing customers upgrading to G6. Some big bills start to roll in as they age, not evident in the newer aircraft service costs.

What costs would they be... the $20'ish K bill for the 10 year parachute re-pack and 6 year line cutter replacements? Chicken feed in the scheme of things.

[Karunch]

What costs would they be... the $20'ish K bill for the 10 year parachute re-pack and 6 year line cutter replacements? Chicken feed in the scheme of things.

Yes they are the bills I was referring to. Chicken feed in comparison to the purchase price & subsequent depreciation indeed, but still multiples of the annual operating cost of my similar performance, similar age aircraft.

[StickWithTheTruth]

Your logic is flawed. The new models are up to $1m or so and they are selling them for anywhere from 300k+ for an SR22 used. The motive would not be a $20k parachute re-pack alone.