Pilot training or University (2011)

[JohnRayner]

A good degree from a good university is demonstration that you can perform to a certain level intellectually and organizationally. The degree choice you made might also say something about the person you were when you were 18.

I agree with those who say that degrees shouldn't be viewed as some sort of "back-up". They're really not. Unless they're vocational and the structure exists to bring you up to speed if you've been out of the loop of the given profession for a long time.

Also, a simple truth of Uni education in GB plc circa early 21st century is that unless you do a good degree at a demonstrably good uni, and get a good award, then all you have is something that everyone else has, in line with current govt educational policy.


WWW said something along the lines of "different strokes for different folks" and in this he's right. Higher education isn't for everyone. I went to Uni and did Medicine, my younger brother scraped past his GCSEs, but has gone on to start his own tree surgery business. He spends all day getting paid to hang out in trees with big pieces of kit which he loves, while I get to go work in hospital on shifts, up until recently only seeing my missus every 2-3 weeks for any length of time, which I simply don't enjoy! The point is, he's doing very well, thank you, off the back of bugger all by way of a school education.

I think a big problem in GB has always been that people are expected to make big decisions about what to do with the rest of their lives at way too early an age. There should be a bit of slack to get out, do some stuff, and find out what you like.

[Capt Pit Bull]

I wouldn't think of a degree as a back up plan. But, chosen wisely, it can be a huge bonus within a pilots career. I won't bore people with the details, but if I were to look back at my career and cross off all the opportunities that I was able to take advantage of because of my degree there would be a lot missing. And incidentally, I'm not talking about having the piece of paper, but rather the knowledge and skills gained.

And I only got a 3rd - too busy arsing around in bulldogs!

A good solid technical education will never be wasted time in a technology dominated industry like aviation. You just need a career planning horizon that extends a bit further than 'get atpl - get rhs'.

[MUFC_fan]

If say, you got 4 decent (A-A*) grades at a Grammar/Private school or something along those lines, it would not be wise to go to University would it? Unless of course it WAS a private school and then you could afford both!:}

What I am trying to say is, people come out of University with large debts - adding £40k+ to it isn't exactly going to help is it?

[Re-Heat]

I think a big problem in GB has always been that people are expected to make big decisions about what to do with the rest of their lives at way too early an age.
This is a valid point, and certainly of issue in the public policy spectrum; however, one cannot use this argument when working through the system as it stands today.

I would love to be an idealist, but given an awareness of the structure at present, you would be foolish to ignore it!

The debt issue is only partially of relevance - if you have only SLC debts, your position in gaining finance for training is better, as those debts are paid only from earnings. However, if - as many people do - you run up further debts, your position is destroyed with regards to obtaining financing. On the other hand, a school leaver does not have the same strength to gain any debt financing for training simply by reference to their education and age, which the bank will also take into account.

There is no simple answer, hence why I would suggest that each person had different needs, preferences and best possible routes.

[MajesticMav]

Good posts above^^
To add my two penny's worth. I started training for my fATPL almost straight out of sixth form with a-levels in Maths, Physics and Chem (no matter how much I hate it). Anyway I started in early Q2 2008 and finished my PPL and ATPL ground school with exams by mid December. All this time I believed I had what it takes to become a pilot and for the most part I did. I went about through my ATPL's with ease gaining an 90% avg thanks to my Maths and Physics A-levels.

But heres where it started to go a little funny. The global recession kicking in and a low prospect of finding a job even with family in aviation. Now I'm not saying its impossible. In the mean time I had applied to a well known Cadet program and had got through my first stage. With a sense of belief I went on to the second stage but unfortunately didn't make it. Now my initial dissapointment was short lived as I realized that I was better than 95% of the other applicants in terms of psychometric tests and that was the first time I went through that type of computer based one. Anyhow it was time to put the thinking cap on and figure out my next step, go and finish my hour building CPL and IR and keep applying on a hope or somehow get funding to get my own type rating after that (I'm sure everyones thought of it at some stage). I chose neither since it didn't seem right to get my licence in such a hurry and pay for my Type Rating that I feel a company ought to pay for. Instead I chose to go to University.

Why? Well, I know I'm going to be a pilot and I know I have the ability to do it but when I have time to spare due to the recession I should get something that will help me gain an advantage later on in my career. So in short its about the choices you make and the how well you manage your time. I believe that by 2012 the airlines in UK will get better (Olympics and all). So my best gamble was to wait for a time around then. I have some friends who waltzed into jobs straight out of A-levels but that was a different time. And a degree for me seems like a logical and safe choice that would not leave me twirling my thumbs.

[MUFC_fan]

I really hope it works for you MM yet for some people money is a major issue and getting half way through the training and then going to University is financial suicide.

As I said, I hope all goes well for you.

[lander66]

Count yourself EXTREMELY lucky MajesticMav, as you are one of the few who can afford an fATPL straight out of Sixth Form and also afford to go to uni as well, right after that.

I don't begrudge you the opportunity as we would all take it if we could(although probably in the opposite order to remain current with your flying).

I suspect also that you will not be one needing to struggle to find decent work in order to stay current in the long hunt for jobs. Could be 2012 could be 2015, who knows...

Good luck! :ok:

[Bjarnum]

Hi,

This question is aimed at employed pilots:

Quick Background: I am a EU Citizen, have a FAA PPL, a Bachelors Degree in Political Science. I will be doing modular training in the future as I have access to Single engine plane at $60/hr wet and Multi at $120/hr wet and current US Navy fast jet flight instructor at $15 an hour (USDs). I have been through NetJets and Cathay Cadet programme, didnt make NetJets and said no to Cathay. I have 20,000 euro from guaranteed state loans towards flight training and the rest of the training costs I can cover from my own funds.

I now have a decision to make and would like to know what you think about my OPTIONS:

OPTION 1: Go to university for a year and obtain a MSc in Space Studies in Strasbourg France (have obtained a scholarship from European Space Agency I just have to cover living expenses in Strasbourg (around 10000euro for a year). After 12 months with my MSc, then do my ATPL and CPL/IR/ME/MCC (Takes two years in total).

OPTION 2. Do not obtain a Masters and begin my ATPL and CPL/IR/ME right now as the market seems to be picking up. (Takes one year).

In other words, will a Masters degree be helpful in applying for a piloting position once I have my newly minted licenses? And will being a year older (30) start prejudicing my chances or will the Master Degree out weigh the added year to my age.

What would you do based on this information? Reply by voting for OPTION "1" or "2", and motivate your answer if you feel you have the time. Please note I would like to hear from qualified pilots who have been in the business for a while.

Thanks. (For those that contributed, I will eventually let everyone know what I chose to do).

[Poeli]

I had to ask myself the same question last month. I went for the master. If you can get a scholarship like that in France I wouldn't hesitate and take it! It's a once in a lifetime chance, and you still have time to take lessons for the other licences imo.

[cavortingcheetah]

OPTION 1.

Without a second of hesitation.

Bias.
I am an old pilot so I can only look back with experience and not forward in hope. (Well, not as far as a flying career is concerned anyway.) But then I probably sound like a father figure which is not necessarily the best medium for advice.

Reasons.
You are obviously a very academic smart cookie and hard working too of course. So it can be assumed you will achieve your MSc within one year.
I think that there can be no doubt that a year spent on an MSc will far outweigh any differential in the synaptic age curve between 29 and 31.
It is also my opinion that a Master's degree in a serious subject, not basket weaving for example, would be of enormous advantage if the aviation business gets tough in the future. It confers almost unlimited street cred.
Besides that, I have a feeling that other opportunities with more limitless horizons might lie at the end of such a degree.
Good luck.

[Halfwayback]

A new thread to answer a recurrent question

[usualguy]

320, 2000h, US ATP, flight instructor, JAA CPL...
no flying job since 2.5 years.
speak 3 languages.

now too old. over 40 yo.:ugh:airlines want pay to fly pilots, and young.

still want make a CPL?

I have a master degree in Mechanic, I can still rely on this.Industry will take me back if I need.
Can you do the same at 40? if not, you are in big trouble.

[Lew747]

I chose to get a job straight after sixth form. I DO regret not going to university. I think it's because most of my friends went and told me about how much of a great time it is whilst I was stuck back at home working.

However a lot of them have now all finished their degrees with most going back into mundane jobs that anyone could do whereas I know have 3 years of work experience and have worked my way into a managerial role. It has allowed me to fund my PPL, Hour Building and of course...car! As well as a hefty amount towards my professional flight training. Something I could not have done if I had gone to uni!

Maybe in the future whilst I'm still young I might think of going back as a mature student if the industry still has not picked up or opt for an open university degree. I like to think my current job is a 'means to an end' so guess for the time being I will stick it out. Never know what's coming around the corner!

[Bjarnum]

Just an update, I decided on option One. Currently at University and now applying for an internship with Virgin Galactic.

[HrCookie]

I have now read this thread through, and it has given me food for thought. I myself am 18 years old, will be 19 this summer, and is at the last term of the Gymnasium, it is Danish, (im from Denmark) and equivalent to Hight school i gues. Here I have English at A level, and both Mathematics and Physics at the B trough levels, where I get rigtight good grades.

Here, to February Im going to Gatwick to get my JAA Class 1 Initial Medical and FAA Class 1 Initial Medical, to be sure I can become a pilot.
But when I'm done with school this summer, I am unsure about my approach. I was sure that I, as Lew747 wrote, would work for about 2 years while my friends are at university and then go to the USA, to become a pilot at Phoenix East Aviation due to their Scandinavian program.
So I considered going to university, but decided it was a bad idea, because it's not free, in the sence that I'll have to leave home, pay for an apartment, and may borrow money, which you wrote, can destroy my financial foundation for becoming a pilot.

But still think most of you that it pays of to have a university education, when you want to train as a pilot?

Greetings from a worried Danish soul.

[Jockster]

Do both!!
Kingston and university of Buckinghamshire offer an aviation studies degree that incorporates the EASA ATPL learning objectives. You do some of the course at the university with modules at BCFTC in Bournemouth. You leave university with a degree, Atpl exam passes and a frozen atpl.

[HrCookie]

hello Jockster,

Can you possibly provide a link to the specific education? and is the education for international students, ie students who are not from the United Kingdom?

The ATPL you end out with, it is of the same snadart as one from a regular flight school and will the airlines not prefer one over the other?
I think in relation to optaining hours. At the flight school i am looking at, it is possible to become an instructor afterwards, giving 3 - 500t multi-engine hours, and up to 1,200 hours total.

So the question is surely whether it should be several hours vs. a university degree.

[Bjarnum]

@ HrCookie

Going to University will provide you with valuable insights into life before committing to a career and massive debt. I know Denmark well, University is free and you get a monthly grant of around 400 Euro for a period of up to 6 odd years. You even get this grant when studying abroad. Dont go to University for some 'Airline Management' course, invest in yourself and your intelectual mind and read History, Philosophy or some classical discipline. Focus on picking up another language and experiences. If I had to do it again, and lived in Denmark, and had good marks, I would go to Medical School. Its free, become a medical doctor and then get your licenses thereafter.

My 3 cents.

-

[mad_jock]

Kingston and university of Buckinghamshire offer an aviation studies degree that incorporates the EASA ATPL learning objectives


There is university education and going to some hairdressing school/ nursing college which calls itself a Uni.

Any degree which has ATPL studies as part of the course is not a proper degree and in the grand scale of things is a waste of your time and the stupidly high course fees.

Having a degree as such doesn't give you much benefit as a pilot. Locking yourself into an industry which is a bastard for peaks and lows and very dependent on the economy state is plain daft. Choose your degree with your brain not your heart.

[Groundloop]

Any degree which has ATPL studies as part of the course is not a proper degree

So says the World's expert on University degrees!:ugh:

[Genghis the Engineer]

Although there is some truth in what Jock says.

Buck (new?) University seems to have split itself out (https://bucks.ac.uk/en/about_us/how_we_are_structured/partner_colleges/) again into the "university" element - which certainly does offer nursing, and "Amersham and Wycombe College" which does offer courses in hairdressing and beauty therapy (http://www.amersham.ac.uk/courses/higher-education/hair-beauty/#.Tyqv2oF0org). They also offer something that includes ATPLs.

Treat them both as what they are - vocational courses with substantial knowledge components, dressed up as proper education. Hair, Beauty, and Flying - are all vocational training, which is a different beast to true degree level education.

Normally. Any of them can potentially be part of a proper degree - a high level educational qualification. It's just that they often aren't really.

Ultimately, there's nothing wrong with aspiring to be a superb pilot, or a superb hairdresser. Just be honest with yourself and recognise that you've had a lot of training and a little education to get there, not the other way around. A "proper" degree is a lot of education, although also hopefully a little training as well.

I wouldn't however be embarrassed about being compared with a modern nurse. It's become virtually an all-graduate profession, and there is nothing trivial or pure-training about the education those folks get nowadays.

G

[mad_jock]

Groundloop Quote:


So says the World's expert on University degrees!


Says the person that makes a living off these pish Beckham studys persudo science ATPL degrees.

I am a impartial pilot who has views on the subject with a back ground in working in academia and also holds an Engineering degree.

Anyway with any luck the current fee's policy will put these pish degrees into touch along with numerous other "Beckham studies" leeching money out of gullable children.

3 years at 7.5K equals 22.5k Thats your CPL/IR payed for another 18k and you have you license in under 18months.

[pudoc]

David Beckham studies isn't as bad as Surfing Studies, Star Trek or Queer Musicology. As if the government gives 10k loan for people to do these studies...

[Genghis the Engineer]

To the best of my knowledge, "David Beckham Studies", has only ever been used to describe one module (i.e. 1/18th) of a broader degree course.

Surfing studies on the other hand... (http://www1.plymouth.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/1645/Pages/CourseOverview.aspx)

G

[mad_jock]

WTF is Queer Musicology?

I don't even want to put that into a search engine.

[Groundloop]

Says the person that makes a living off these pish Beckham studys persudo science ATPL degrees.

Once again mad_jock jumps to conclusions. He certainly lives up to his name!

I am involved in a degree which includes an ATPL but I am also involved with aeronautical engineering degree courses so I do know what makes a "proper" degree and what does not!

Oh, and are you going to tell Liverpool University that their 4 year MEng in Aeronautical Engineering with Pilot Studies is a "David Beckham" degree?:ugh:

[mad_jock]

Aerospace Engineering with Pilot Studies MEng (Hons) - University of Liverpool (http://www.liv.ac.uk/study/undergraduate/courses/aerospace-engineering-with-pilot-studies-meng-hons/modules/)

So your trying to compare a faculty approved BSc with a fully accredited engineering degree for CEng? And although there is three modules of pilot studies is is really not the bulk of the course (and certainly not a whole year with nothing else). And it has a minimal flying content (20 hours) the ATPL studys isn't sight I am afraid its half a NPPL.

Engineering Maths to second year really kicks it out of the beckham studies league table.

And your Aero eng degree is perfectly acceptable in my book.

Aeronautical Engineering BEng/MEng | City University London (http://www.city.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/aeronautical-engineering#course-detail=1)

Two years of maths but its doesn't say if its acredited with the Engineering Council. Which if it isn't I am afraid makes it second league. (And if it is why arn't you selling that fact on the course details like Liverpool does?)

Then we have this.... BSc acredited by no one.

BSc (Hons) Air Transport Operations with ATPL | City University London (http://www.city.ac.uk/courses/undergraduate/air-transport-operations-with-atpl#tabs-2=&course-detail=1)

9K a year minimum plus living expenses which doesn't include flight training. You would have to be barking to be paying that. You could get CPL/IR and FI for 40k in 18 months.

[Groundloop]

And it has a minimal flying content (20 hours) the ATPL studys isn't sight I am afraid its half a NPPL.

You obviously did not read the whole course description. Pilot Studies 1 covers the NPPL but Pilot Studies 2 and 3 cover ATPL subjects.

Two years of maths but its doesn't say if its acredited with the Engineering Council. Which if it isn't I am afraid makes it second league. (And if it is why arn't you selling that fact on the course details like Liverpool does?)

It is accredited. A lot of Universites don't mention that their courses are accredited - Imperial for instance!

[mad_jock]

2 and 3 cover some of the subjects but for one modual courses thats hardly alot taken away from the academic subjects. Bit like the language options on other engineering courses. You fill a whole year with those two moduals mean while the students at liverpool have also done.

•Aeroengines 1
•Dynamic Systems
•Communication Systems
•Design 3 and 4
•Engineering Mathematics II
•Engineering Structures A
•Instrumentation
•Avionic Systems
•Numerical and Statistical Analysis for Engineering with Programming
•Project Management
•Aircraft Performance B

Apart from which if you take and pass the ATPL's in second year they are going to be spent by the time you graduate. And I really can't see the students being able to bang in the approprate amount of study hours on top of doing there academic engineering degree to be able to qualifiy on the modular requirments for home study. And more to the point ATPL is never mentioned. Its more than acceptable for Aero students to have an exposure to commercial performance etc. I have done moduals in Nuclear reactors and Chemical reaction vessels still doesn't qualifiy me to press any buttons in the control rooms (personally I would include the light switches as well in a Nuke)



Why study Engineering at Imperial? (http://www3.imperial.ac.uk/engineering/prospectivehome/whyengineering)

Our courses are designed in an integrated way to build up your engineering expertise step by step. We use a balance of theory and practice, with many team-based projects running alongside lectures. Our undergraduate courses are accredited by the relevant professional institutions and are therefore part of the formal educational requirements for professional practice as an engineer.

Seems a pretty clear cut statement to me.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Here is the list (http://aerosociety.com/Assets/Docs/Membership/Accredited%20Courses%20-%20Dec%202011.pdf) of accredited degrees in aeronautical engineering available in Britain.

For those who don't know, to become a Chartered Engineer, you need either an MEng or a BEng plus an MSc, ideally but not essentially an accredited one.

When I was working full time for a university I put together, and got accredited, one of the BEng/MEng + pilot studies programmes. The demands for standards from the RAeS were higher even than I had anticipated, but entirely appropriate in my opinion.

The entire PPL syllabus they allowed as 1 module (1/6th of the year) in the first year. We were never very interested in including much ATPL material, although a few bits snuck into some 3rd year courses on met and aircraft design.

G

[Bjarnum]

Just an update from my previous post on this thread. As noted earlier in my post, I decided to go and do a Masters Degree at the International Space University in Strasbourg, France. I have my application in with Virgin Galactic now and hope to be interning with them this summer. I am completing some research work and would love to get your responses in my research, please see the link:

tinyurl.com/isusurvey

Cheers!

[BerksFlyer]

1. If you want to come out of uni with some knowledge that is going to help you pass your ATPL do; Maths, (Aerospace) Engineering

University maths is a far cry from the GCSE maths/numeracy needed for the ATPL theory. Same goes for Engineering at university.

An aspiring pilot who goes to university shouldn't do so because it will help him become a pilot, but because they respect the fact that it is an expensive and luck-based career that is likely to come with periods of unemployment. If more people had a solid career (which tends to stem from doing a degree) before becoming a pilot there would be less willing to stoop to the levels currently witnessed (P2F, flexicrew etc).

[BUGS/BEARINGS/BOXES]

Do whatever the hell it is you want to do and nothing else. Dont let others sway you. Its your choice, not theirs. Does a degree help? Depends on the employer. Simple. How many post grad getting jobs in the uk from either uni or pilot trg? Very few.

[Scott Duch]

I believe it's a fine balance between going to uni and getting on with pilot training.

Approaching the end of school, my plan was to head straight into pilot training but the economy took a turn for the worse and it simply wasn't an option. I looked at the best way of spending my time, allowing the economy to improve and I thought it would be best spent going to uni.

With my interest in maths and physics at school coupled with my desire to become an airline I went for the 'no brainer' of doing Aeronautical Engineering at the University of Glasgow (the only place in Scotland to offer such a degree but also a very high ranking university).

The course has maths in both first and second year, and all the various courses mad_jock states above (Aerodynamics, Fluids, Numerical Methods, Propulsion, Flight Mechanics, etc....) but it's extremely tough. I knew it would be extremely difficult and as a result worked very hard and so far predicted for a 1st class which I never thought I would be capable of but people shouldn't think they want to be a pilot but want to go to uni and think Aero Eng is a must!

What made things worse for me is that during the summer of last year I applied for the BA FPP (got to FTO selection), Aer Lingus cadet (got to the final stage) and the FlyBe/FTE MPL (got to phase 3 of 4 but received an offer from FTE to join an ATPL course at anytime) and will all that going on - I have never been so less motivated to doing my Aero Degree and it's a course that if you fall behind, it seriously harms your chances of performing at your best.

The whole having your degree as a back-up situation is a bit of an unknown when I seeked other people's opinions. Speaking to one of my lecturer who is an instructor said that if I graduated, and then 5 years later lose my medical so cannot fly, I'm 5 years more expensive as an engineer compared to the newest graduates as the engineering profession is always moving and new engineers are leaving university and are also seeking that first job. Also the argument of forgetting much of the knowledge during the time you're not an engineer etc etc....

All I would say is it up to the individual if uni is for him/her but don't feel you MUST do Aero Engineering because if you are not interested, it's the type of degree that will make your next 4/5 years a misery!

Thankfully being able to put all the cadetships behind me and taking the positives from them, I can continue with my university career knowing I have what it takes to become a pilot and fully concentrate on my studies until the next schemes come around this year. By that time, I'll have my degree to hand! :)

[206Fan]

All I would say is it up to the individual if uni is for him/her but don't feel you MUST do Aero Engineering because if you are not interested, it's the type of degree that will make your next 4/5 years a misery!Have to agree but I think it's going to be more along the lines of not getting through the First / Second Year if the Individual has no Interest in the Engineering topic they are Studying.

[Groundloop]

Speaking to one of my lecturer who is an instructor said that if I graduated, and then 5 years later lose my medical so cannot fly, I'm 5 years more expensive as an engineer compared to the newest graduates as the engineering profession is always moving and new engineers are leaving university and are also seeking that first job. Also the argument of forgetting much of the knowledge during the time you're not an engineer etc etc....

However, you would be able to offer 5 years of practical experience in handling aircraft and their systems - and living and working in the real world.

[mad_jock]

Which would be worthless when it came to hammering the codes in what ever line of engineering you are in.

Its a completely different enviroment.

You would be back into the pot with all the other untrained engineers which to be honest are pretty much useless until they have 3-5 years under there belt under the supervision of someone knowing what they are doing.

But you will have life experence and numerical degree which will open doors to you but not in the engineering sector unless it is in sales or the like.

engineering skills are extremely perishable even with 6 years worth on my CV I doudt very much I could get back in unless a mate did me a huge favour. I would go with your lecturer who is showing a better grasp of what the real world is actually like compared to most academics.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I would go with your lecturer who is showing a better grasp of what the real world is actually like compared to most academics.

I'm pretty certain I know who that lecturer will be, and I think that's a fair comment.

Not much hair, very fond of chipmunks? Yes, very good man whose advice is well worth listening to.

G

[mad_jock]

O and flying the line.

The people with degrees who seem to get alot of benefit out of them are in my experence.

Pharmacists: they get locum work with one phone call. extremely well payed and very fexible.

optician: again well payed locum work.

Both of these seem to be able to pull in 800-1000 extra a month or more depending on the roster. They drop in and out as their wallet dictates.

But I do know one structral engineer who does consultancy work on the side but its not really in the same league because with both of the above you do your hours then walk away. As with anything engineering you really need to be able to be in contact for any querys.


Saying that though with your proper degree background and loosing your medical there could be opertunities in airline performance deptments but i don't know if I could sit crunching the numbers for emergency procedures when I would in reality be wanting to be reading them and briefing them on the flight deck.