Put me off, please.

[DB777]

The tales woe that linger in most posts on this Forum seem to attract a wide range of responses from established airline pilots on here, they clearly find it bizarre that so many wannabe's come close to destroying themselves in a bid to fulfill their ambition? I can only assume that once defined in their career, with a hefty amount of hours/experience and with some well-earned seniority in their airlines, they must view some of us as slightly misguided and perhaps guilty of wearing them oversized rose-tinted specs?

Even though i'd probably be regarded as being in the early, hopeless stages of my flying training, i'm fairly long in the tooth in my current 'non-av' career and see my industry's 'wannabes' jumping over themselves for roles that they'll inevitably find limited and generally unrewarding. In the spirit of stamping their feet in the door and starting the climb up their respective ladders, they continue to bowl-in and if like me – a little older with a few more responsibilities – they willingly compromise their integrity, financial security and gawd knows what else to achieve that first step – blindly, it seems.

I can see that clearly in my game, but i'm in danger of being that person in my quest to become a jet driver.

So, I'm appealing to all them established airline pilots on here.
I need some discouragement to help me extinguish the fire which is relentlessly motivating me into either debt, divorce or an early grave.

I feel reasonably well informed as to the hiring situation, the current and future demand for pilots, the level of T&Cs and the tricks played by the FTOs etc. I've spent more than enough time on this site trawling through the darkest and most unambiguous threads which quickly turn on the poster and question their upbringing, funding method and grammar too it seems.
What I want to read are the everyday realities. The waking up and thinking "I can't spend another hour on that flightdeck..." or "If I did this job for another month it'll drive me insane" realities. So many on here skim across it whilst trying to educate us mere wannabes but it's by painting a true picture of this that I can destroy the dream sequence that I constantly play in my mind time and time again.

For me, exposure to airline pilots (or any professional) who speaks truthfully and candidly about their role is rare. By nature there is pride that doesn't allow what i'm sure can sometimes be a negative image to be painted, especially with the current state of affairs and quite selfishly I need a dosage of what real-life is like as a pilot. I need to make a calculated decision – once and for all – whether or not to continue down this path which could very well end in misery. A decision based not solely on finances, time and logistics but on lifestyle, family life, health (physical and mental), achievement and all those often disregarded factors.
It seems contradictory that in the new-age of flight training, a role which demands clarity on decision making under pressure can welcome individuals who could sometimes carry an immense and 'debilitating' debt and still be ushered in because of their commercial viability. Debt is part of the quest undoubtedly, a more accurate picture of the landscape i'll be carrying that burden through will help determine if I can bare it in the long run.

Consider it a public cleansing with the added benefit of potentially preventing this sole wannabe from joining the already long line.

[redsnail]

I am fortunate in that I am not an airline pilot. However, I do fly a jet.

The dislikes? Well, it's just happened. We tried to coordinate 2 pilot rosters to go to Oktoberfest but because someone in crewing/rostering in the other airline, an error was made. Thus, we have wasted a bit of money.
Planning your lives is what is frustrating. "Normal" jobs generally mean weekends off. No such luck with aircrew.

You will miss birthdays etc.

Other than that, I really enjoy my job. For sure, it has it's moments. Like loading heavy bags or cleaning the lav. :yuk: However, I do have a very good job. It's interesting and we do have pretty good support.

Generally, it's not the flying that is the source of frustration, it's dealing with management. (and security) :( (oh and Spanish ATC) :mad:

If you've done the sums, worked out a reasonable plan, understand the reality of gaining a decent paying job after flight school, and you won't unduly risk your financial future and your family's future (if you have one), then go for it. (and medically ok)

What I find insane is how people are so apparently ready to throw an enormous amount of money at this industry on the say so from some slick sales pitch. Yes, jets is where the money is (or was), but the apprenticeship is best served on a turboprop. You don't need to spend +£80K for that. (Although, sadly, hiring for jets in recent times seems to ignore the pilot flying turboprops produces - all things being equal)

(See Beazelbub's view re low hour v jet jobs in the UK etc for balance. It's sobering reading. Especially with the recent hiring patterns from easyJet and Ryanair)

[DB777]

john_smith, really?
You could literally knock me down with a feather.

I've somehow made myself feel truly unhappy trying to plan my pathway into the environment that you're desperately trying to get out of.

Your honesty is appreciated.

[saunj11]

:rolleyes:

I am so sick of people posting stuff like this on here. These forums are meant to be used to encourage and help those trying to get into the industy.

Yes, there may be 1000's that are jobless, but im sorry, if you want to just give up, and are saying stuff like this before you have even started... walk away! Those that have come into it and now sit on here day after day :mad:ing and moaning , deserve it. If you want to get something, go out and get it. Sobbing on a forum will only attract people who are in the same situation as you.

[captainsuperstorm]

do you have 200'000 euro for line training , type rating.

with 200'000 euro you can have the status of "unemployed" and collecr 250 pounds/month in UK.

what a wonderful career for losers!
each time I see a pilot, he is :

-full of debt
-unemployed
-live with mom
-live with dad
-live with a GF
-live in a trailer
-live in a tent
-live on a TESCO parking spot
-live in the street, some choose the beach
...

what a wonderful job!
:E

look like I am invisible when i am loged out , and can see only my own post when looged in ... who is the idiot on this pprune...???

[redsnail]

Saunj11, with respect, the OP asked for the "downsides" of the job.
If your profile is correct, you're 18 and in South Africa.
I do not know what the industry is like in SA but I am pretty familiar with what's happening in Europe, in particular, the UK and also fairly familiar with Australia.

It's easy to fall for the flying school spin, they want your business. £50,000-£80,000 is not an insignificant outlay, one that should be taken very seriously.

The question every one should ask before commencing flying training is:-

Can I afford to lose/pay back that amount if I don't get a well paying job?

John_Smith highlights what can happen when you go straight from school to the "destination", ie jets. Potentially, you're bored after a couple of years. Hence I do think I am very lucky in the path I took. (FI - bush pilot - surveillance pilot - regional turboprop - freight (more turboprop) and finally a jet.) However, as he has said, in the UK in particular, that route has all but closed (for the time being).

[Jumbo744]

These forums are meant to be used to encourage and help those trying to get into the industy.

Anybody can get into this industry, if by industry, you mean, flight training industry! just pay 70.000$. Now, getting into the real Airline Industry is another story.

Reality can't hurt! Thank god there are posts like this one, otherwise we would all be repeating flying school lies: "come on, achieve your dream, become an airline pilot, you'll fly a 747 within 15 days of finishing training, you'll be rich!!"

To anyone thinking of starting training: be prepared for a lot of negative changes in your life, financial insecurity/bankruptcy, depression, etc...it's your choice.

I knew all of that before starting my training, and I am going through all this negativity now that I have finished my training, and I accept it. It doesn't hurt me much. The banks can go to hell. I have a good job in IT, and I'm hopeful to find a flying job some day, it's ok.

It just gets me extremely angry when I see flying school mates using pay to fly programs because it makes my quest for a flying job longer.

[Piltdown Man]

Ok, here we go...

Do you have a spare £140,000?

After spending just over a year learning to fly, will you be able to afford to spend another two years living on nothing?

Are you prepared to move away from friends and family for a very extended period?

If No to any question, don't bother flying.

Instead, for a fraction of that money, I'd do a Part P exam, a Gas Safe Course and get some joinery training. Then with change left from £25K or so, buy my tools and a crappy van, stick an add in the paper and let the cash roll in. In my spare time I'd fly Open Class gliders or Pitts Specials.

Really, forget flying. At the moment, the only people it's good for are those at the top. Only when there is real shortage (don't hold your breath) will it be worth entering.

[usualguy]

stay positive, focus on your training,don't think about your debts, you can still go bankrupt ;)

[Gav28]

john_smith - Out of interest would you say you are in a minority amongst your colleagues and training course mates in resenting the job to this degree?

Excellent post though, thanks.

[rmcb]

It takes a big man to say what John Smith said. Well done.

Gav28 - you touch a raw nerve. You are asking the most alpha of alpha male types (there can be females of this ilk as well):

'Were you wrong to end up in debt with nothing more than a blue booklet?'

:(

[DB777]

john_smith's post is certainly an eye opener, I initially thought it may have been a selfless act to turn the milk sour and let me (and others like me) down easy. Not the case, a quick look through other threads makes for interesting reading.

I've seen plenty of feedback like this on PPRuNe in the past but don't ask me where. I always find this far more insightful than the usual tip bits of information littering the Forums.

saunj11, with respect, it's not a sob story i've posted. I'm far beyond being the author of such having read so many. You're interpretation of what I have asked is either some sort of defensive emotional response based on adolescent angst, or, more likely some sort of avoidance technique you've put in place to channel your energy into positive scenario – something I actually commend you for. You know little about my situation because I have purposely refrained from describing it. Everyone has a story, some moan and some don't. Some dream in colour – some colour their dreams.

My request for discouraging descriptions of the role was to read accurate portrayals of day-to-day lives of commercial pilots (airline or other). There's no doubt that the image I have is currently full of fluffy white clouds, relaxed flightdeck environments with joyous and stimulating banter between myself and the capt. reliving his/her av tales of old. Steadily handling that day's ship through tricky weather or atc to make my 3d or 4th greaser of the day and receiving that all important cracked smirk and wink from the left hand seat when we roll up to the gate. Being picked up at the airport by a proud wife and kids who came early to watch us land only then to answer my son's barrage of plane related questions all the way home in the hope to inspire him, etc., etc... Clearly it's an outdated image (need to update the books I read methinks)
As much as I want all that to be the fuel that drives me, i'm grounded enough to know/believe it's not like that.
Unlike alot of industries there is no such thing as work experience days to be a pilot so it is left to us prodding the appropriate people to get that all important chunk of reality.

redsnail, it sounds like you've got the best of both worlds to me. I've been self-employed, or have worked for only sme's long enough to know that I would hate being another link in a long corporate chain (I have had to clean the lavs for own company in the past). I've largely stayed away from the FTOs so far and will continue to do so, for too cynical to be manipulated like that (or so I like to believe :rolleyes:)

[Bealzebub]

I have said it many times before, but I will say it again. The industry is a pyramid. It is a very tall pyramid, and the airline pilot jobs represent the apex. Beneath the apex there are a lot of bodies. Working your way up from the base is usually an arduous, time consuming and very expensive process. It requires a high degree of stamina as well as very well honed mental and financial fitness. Add to this a comprehensive set of site plans, optional routes and luck, and you may well stand a chance of navigating the route through the maze of severely obstructed passageways that lead to the top.

It is very crowded in that pyramid. There a lot of merchants selling their wares to the prospective and ever hopefull climbers. Many people join the ranks of these merchants as they attempt to consolidate their own position on their own personal quest. Despite the inherent optimism that most of the climbers start out with, they soon discover that the lower two thirds of the pyramid is in fact a necropolis that is very expensive to navigate, has many expensive toll gates, and takes no prisoners with those who have come poorly equipped. As unfortunate as that is, it is still a necessary consumption resource for the other merchants and travellers in the pyramid.

For those, lucky and or wealthy enough, there are special routes on the outside of the pyramid, that provide a much quicker and less encumbered climb towards the apex of the pyramid. When the apex is full, all progress through the pyramid comes to a complete halt, however the merchants still sell to the crowds of trapped travellers, provided those travellers have the means to pay. Failure to pay (as many are forced to) results in the necropolis claiming another victim.

The truth is, that very very few people see anything other than the apex of the pyramid. Much of what is visible, are the people on the outside rapidly ascending the steep sides of the outer pyramid in shiny glass elevators. What is inside is hidden, and is a journey that relatively few will successfully navigate all the way to the top. Those who sound caution are often derided as "naysayers," but the wise travellers would do well to listen.


There is nothing wrong with buying a dream. If you are an adult, can make a sensible appraisal of risk, and you can afford it, then buy whatever you want. There are industries devoted to the sale of dreams, selling shiny red sports cars, luxury cruises around the world in oppulent splendour, and even flights to the very edges of space. They are all expensive.

With all of the above luxury purchases, few people would risk their financial futures unless they were already properly funded. Most would also realize that their purchase would be worth little, less, or nothing once it had been consumed or used. However show them a picture of a 25 year old in a starched white shirt with gold eppaulettes and dark sunshades, leaning out of a cockpit window and pointing to an azure cloudless sky, and the same common sense and realization also flies out of that window.

So, you pay your money and take your choice. A lot of people need your patronage to survive and make their own living, or take themselves one floor higher. It is a difficult journey. The attrition rate is very high. Few will succeed in reaching the apex. No one cares about your dreams or motivation, and as an adult, you will be responsible for your own choices, actions and result.

Entry tickets can be purchased next to the gold plated ATM machine.

Welcome to the Great pyramid of the Necropolis!

[DB777]

It's taken 13 posts, now PPRuNe's very own literary fountain joins us.

Surely you can gift me some tales from the other world?

[Bealzebub]

Oh yes easily.

Six figure salaries and solid stable employers. Having never been paid a day late in your entire career. Flying airliners around the globe and occaissional detachments to exotic ports-of call.

Working with crew who brighten up every day. Being able to pick up a phone or tap at a keyboard and access everybody from the Managing director downwards. A company that operates in part on the philosophy that it pays captains to be managers and in turn make sensible decisions on their behalf.

Great holidays and plenty of time off, even though there are often periods of intensive and sometimes difficult work schedules.

In the apex of the pyramid there are similar tales of the holy grail. This is what attracts so many people. However you said you wanted to be "put off" and that is the title of the thread.

[dashman20]

I'll have a stab!

I don't tend to write much on here but am a long term reader and have learn't
much from some of the posters.

Been an 'airline pilot' for about 14 years,flying instructor before that for a few years,in industry before that as a service engineer for 10 years.Held a PPL since I was 18 and flew any old wreck/glider/hang glider/microlight before that even!
On the way to my current job I've also had tons of various part time jobs either as well as or independently of the others,some of which were dirty,un-skilled,long hours or just down right dangerous!

The current job you are asking questions about(very sensibly and wisely)certainly has it's downsides,some of which have been highlighted already.Some of the other negative points are:
You may lose everything if you lose your medical certificate!
You may fail a check ride in the sim after repeated attempts due to other
'life stressors'-seen it happen to a few good guys.Poss asked to leave the
company which makes it harder to find a new job.
You may not make the grade as a potential captain and be a long term F/O
and thus not reach your projected earning potential-seen that a lot.
The company you work for may not promote for years due to the 'market'-seen that a lot recently.Again,loss of earnings.
You may be involved in an 'incident' that cuts your career short.
There are dozens of other examples probably,but these are ones that I have
witnessed first hand.

The daily grind of shifts,lack of sleep,poor diet(if you choose),roster changes,
lack of physical activity(if you don't keep fit to make up for it)and generally
disruptive life style are well known,but are not unique to this industry.If you don't have a way of dealing with that then think carefully about any job that involves it.
In comparrison to other things I have done I would rate those aspects as not an issue for me-things can,and have been a lot worse!If I ever start feeling sorry for myself I just mentally teleport myself back 20 years-life was much tougher then.

I would say that overall the good outweighs the bad by a mile and it has all been worth it.But when asked about the negatives,it does bring it home to you I guess,but then most of the guys and gals I work with are some of the most positive people I know-we don't all dwell on negative vibes!

Think carefully,plan,have a second option all the time and good luck.

[v6g]

Go to your library, get out "Superfreakonomics", and read the chapter on why drug dealers still live with their Moms.

A clearer explanation of the aviation industry you will not find.