BA response time to complaint?

[astir 8]

Last week the Much Beloved had a booking

Monday evening Glasgow - London City
Tuesday morning Heathrow - Gibraltar

with return on Thursday Gib - LHR - Glasgow.

All the flights were on British Airways

BA cancelled the GLA - LCY flight and they put her on a later flight to LHR instead. She caught the Tuesday morning flight to Gibraltar as scheduled but on checking in at Gib to return she was told that she had been a "no show" on one of the outbound flights and that all her tickets had been cancelled, the fare confiscated and that she would have to fork out large amounts for a new ticket home. This was despite all protestations that she hadn't been a no show anywhere.

She eventually made it home after forking out £400 for an Easyjet ticket but was upset to put it mildly.

She put in a complaint to BA while still in Gibraltar Thursday and a second, with full details on Friday. Other than the standard computerised replies with two different Customer Relations case numbers there has been no response from BA to date.

Anyone know how long BA normally take to respond to complaints? Also suggestions about where to refer the problem if there's no response?

[VS-LHRCSA]

When I worked in BA customer relations, it took up to 4 weeks to get an acknowledgement and then an average of 4-6 weeks for it to be actioned. Who handles your complaint and the timelines involved generally depends on the type of ticket purchased, your Exec Card status, class of travel, etc. A non Exec Card, lead in fare ticket would see the complaint handled in India. A Silver Card holder on a flexible club world ticket is more likely have the complaint first seen in Newcastle. My advice would be to write directly to Willie Walsh. He won't see the letter but it goes to a specialist team at Waterside that are better able to resolve cases like this one. If you're a Gold Card member, there is a direct line you can call for an Executive Assistant which speeds up the process dramatically.

[astir 8]

VS - thanks very much for that information. If BA think we are going to sit and wait for 4 weeks just for an acknowledgement then they can have another think. :E:E

Unfortunately my wife was only travelling peasant class and I've only ever made it to silver, so we'll give it a couple more days and then try the Willie Walsh idea. Is the Air Transport User's Council or any other body worth trying?

If all else fails I can certainly cost BA enough business for them to come out second on the finances

[Three Thousand Rule]

astir

Read EU261/2004 and look at the remedies for cancelled flights - rescheduling is one of them. As far as I can see (unless there is something you have not declared) BA has unlawfully terminated your wife's contract.

Get your beloved to write a letter telling them this and giving them 7 days to provide a remedy, which will be her costs incurred, e.g the U2 fare and any other direct expenses - make sure to include the costs of any postage and stationery - send this letter by a traceable service.

If you have not heard anything by day 8, then get your beloved to issue proceedings against BA in the small claims court.

This appears to be clear breach of contract and you will wish to claim the £400, as well as all costs involved in pursuing BA and any other costs arising.

She may also be due compensation under EU261/2004 for denied boarding, worth looking at.

If the facts are as you say, don't mess about with the AUC, just sue.

[ExXB]

The AUC is no longer ....

From their web-site:

With effect from 9 March 2011, the Air Transport Users Council (AUC) ceased to exist. The AUC's complaints handling function is now part of the Civil Aviation Authority, and consumer representation will be undertaken by a new body, the Aviation Consumer Advocacy Panel. This move follows a review by the CAA of passenger representation in the UK. The changes are explained in more detail in this CAA press release (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=14&pagetype=65&appid=7&newstype=n&mode=detail&nid=1973).
An early priority will be to integrate the AUC website with the CAA's. In the meantime, the advice pages on this website remain valid, and the contact details for complaints and enquiries are on the contact us (http://www.auc.org.uk/default.aspx?catid=306&pagetype=90&pageid=2416) page.

Pity. The AUC was actually quite effective and fair. No idea what the new mandarins at the ACAP will be like, but one can imagine.

[twinboom]

I am astonished at the moderate tone of the contributions to this thread! Surely this is a tale of quite monumental incompetence compounded by neanderthal customer -awareness and -service skills.
You should be seeking, as much more important in the long term if they want to keep your business, an admission of this and an undertaking that there will be put in place processes to prevent a repetition. Of course the requisite financial compensation is clearly due as well.:*

[astir 8]

Three Thousand

The story is gospel as told. Thanks for the other advice

p.s. Is Willie Walsh's office at Waterside or elsewhere?

[PAXboy]

twinboom... moderate tone of the contributions to this thread! Surely this is a tale of quite monumental incompetence compounde ...
That's because the story is the same the world over. Sorry to sound world weary but this is what all modern corporates do. They follow the letter of their silly rules, designed to save money. They work on these lines:


Allow the customer the minimum
If in doubt deny and do not offer anything more
If they shout loud enough/sue/have friends in high places THEN offer compensation
If legally required to compensate, do so when demanded with standard letter of 'the one time we missed our high standards'

The reason is that this is cheaper in the long run moneywise. Customerwise it's "Penny Wise, Pound Foolish" but they will always have enough excuses to tell senior mgmt that it was not their fault.

As we have oft discussed, BA is now in the last downward phase of it's existence - just like ALL corporates that have been running for nearly 100 years.

[Flyer70]

This may be of help to you the Email address of Keith Williams, CEO, British Airways, is [email protected]

[beamender99]

That's because the story is the same the world over. Sorry to sound world weary but this is what all modern corporates do. They follow the letter of their silly rules, designed to save money.My daughter fell foul of terms & conditions way down hidden in the small print etc. of the Flybe website

She bought a return trip to LGW but the decided that she should get an earlier flight so she bought another ticket.
At the end of her visit she found out at LGW that her return was cancelled due to noshow on the first leg.
In spite of protest she was forced to buy anothe ticket for the return leg.

[astir 8]

I well know that in the mini print of terms and conditions, the airlines can nail you if you don't fly as booked.

However in my wife's case, BA cancelled the first flight she was booked on. BA put her on a later flight to Heathrow (involuntarily rerouted I believe they term it). She did then catch the next leg as scheduled. And then BA claimed she had been a no show on one of the outbound legs! We're still waiting an explanation 7 days later!

And assuming that VS-LHRCSA says is correct, we will be waiting another 3 weeks just for something more than a computer generated reply saying "I hope I can assure you that we will be in touch with you again in the very near future"

Ho bloody ho. Letter goes to Wille Walsh tomorrow.

[PAXboy]

Willie has been bumped up the tree, as advised by Flyer70 above, you need to write to Keith Williams, CEO, British Airways as he's now in the driving seat. WW is based in Madrid. That said, the letter will be opened and re-routed (enjoy the pun!) to KW.

[astir 8]

Thanks PB, I was wondering about that.

[jethrobee]

You might also want to file a claim on the travel insurance and get them to chase the airline on your behalf.

[VS-LHRCSA]

Oh yeah, I forgot about WW moving over. I'm sure the process is still the same. KW won't actually SEE the letter but it does go to a specialist team.

[astir 8]

Letter emailed to Keith Williams with copy in registered mail sent today. Meaningful communications demanded within 7 days or legal action to be taken.

[Hotel Tango]

:ok: Good for you Astir 8. I hope you also told them that your wife's experience is splashed all over PPRuNe which is frequented by pax and the Press!

[PAXboy]

Great news astir 8.

PAXboy sits back, puts his feet up and pours a drink, ready to enjoy the fight {from a safe distance :}}

[frequentflyer2]

OK. So, as anyone who reads my posts knows, I'm a journalist, the lowest form of pond life according to some other contributors. But the one thing companies like BA hate, is a factually accurate story about their imcompetence and bad treatment of passengers. Why should they get away with this? They've treated your partner abominably, and the travelling public should know what happened. For heavens sake, a simple check should have shown them the original flight from GLA to LCY was cancelled. It's scandalous. Contact your regional daily, local weekly, whatever, and get a story in the paper. This isn't a complaint about bad cabin service, or a delayed flight. They've all but stolen your money, and their staff in Gibralter did not give a fiddlers about customer service or the airline's reputation.

From what you say, here's what I would have written.

"Inverness-shire passenger ............ was transferred to a Heathrow bound aircraft by British Airways, when the world's favourite airline cancelled a flight she was due to travel on between Glasgow and London City last Monday evening.
........... made the second part of her journey to Gibraltar the next morning. However, two days later, when she attempted to check-in for the first flight of her two stage trip back to Glasgow, she was informed she had "failed to show up" for the London City flight
The British Airways representatives at Gibraltar Airport also told her all monies paid to the airline were being confiscated because of her failure to travel on the cancelled service, and she would have to pay BA £.... if she wished them to transport her back to the UK.
The representatives refused to listen when ........ attempted to explain the flight had been cancelled by BA, and she was forced to travel back on an aircraft operated by another carrier at a cost of around £400."

The journalist writing the story will throw in a few quotes, and will have to contact the BA press office for a statement.
Believe me, unless things have changed drastically very recently, you will not wait four weeks to hear from the airline.
The reason why airlines and other organisations don't take this sort of thing seriously, is because it's very rarely made public. Instead, people rely on discreet letters which, as you've been told, may not be answered for some time. What contempt with which to treat their fare paying passengers.
Sorry, but even writing stories about people being treated this way makes me so angry.

[crewmeal]

A detailed post on flyertalk.com will always ensure a captive audience by the traveling public.

[JKKne]

When I worked in BA customer relations, it took up to 4 weeks to get an acknowledgement and then an average of 4-6 weeks for it to be actioned. Who handles your complaint and the timelines involved generally depends on the type of ticket purchased, your Exec Card status, class of travel, etc. A non Exec Card, lead in fare ticket would see the complaint handled in India. A Silver Card holder on a flexible club world ticket is more likely have the complaint first seen in Newcastle. My advice would be to write directly to Willie Walsh. He won't see the letter but it goes to a specialist team at Waterside that are better able to resolve cases like this one. If you're a Gold Card member, there is a direct line you can call for an Executive Assistant which speeds up the process dramatically.



It has been a while since you've been in BA CR then.

Everything sent to Waterside and Gold Card, Premier, Gold Guest List all goes to Newcastle. Everything sent to Willie, Keith or Frank goes to Newcastle. There is no specialist team. The mail is now forwarded straight to the North East

Turnaround for non status is around 10-14 days. Gold's will get a response within 24-72 hours.

Are you bookings 2 seperate bookings? If so, I'd imagine BA will hold steadfast

I think your being unreasonable in your expectation of a reply so quickly tbh

[Hotel Tango]

Are you bookings 2 seperate bookings? If so, I'd imagine BA will hold steadfast

Rather an odd comment to make in this particular case. It's of no consequence since the London-Gibraltar sector was actually flown, albeit on a different flight because of a cancellation and an involuntary reroute instigated by British Airways themselves.

[astir 8]

HT Thanks for the support. A slight correction though, the LHR - Gibraltar flight was flown as booked. It was the Glasgow - London first leg that was involuntarily rerouted by BA.

So one could argue - how come the Much Beloved was allowed on the LHR - Gib outbound leg if she'd no-showed on the first?

Incidentally we have had a response from BA 9 days after the event. A standardised email asking for details of the problem!:ugh::ugh::ugh:

And no, I don't think 9 days to "answer" an email is acceptable

Hey ho

[manintheback]

I had an identical problem with Swiss. Return leg cancelled by the airline incorrectly. Difference is they upgraded me to make sure I got a seat on the flight - its called customer service -take note BA

[Hipennine]

"I think your being unreasonable in your expectation of a reply so quickly tbh"

One single sentence that sums up in so many ways the p.poor attitude to customer service by big corporates, which is inculcated into their staff.

I have run several successful customer focussed businesses, and I would be really concerned if it took more than a few minutes to make a meaningful first response to a customer complaint. I would be terrified to think that I had a customer focussed business which was running a several day backlog just to get out a meaningless acknowledgement letter. What does that say about the number of complaints in the system ?

Personally, these days, I give big corporates 7 days for a meaningful response, and if not, they get 7 days notice followed up by a summons (it's easy on-line). That seems to be the only effective way to get things done in a satisfactory time-frame.

[VS-LHRCSA]

When I was in CR, the company averaged 5000 complaints per day. This was before BA38 and the T5 opening. Imagine the backlog after these events.

Have a swipe at BA by all means but there are plenty of customer focused staff who do what they can with what they have to at least try to atone for some pretty bad customer experiences.

[Avionker]

So on one hand we have BA cabin crew telling us that everything good about the airline is down to the people who work for it.

And now we have VS-LHRCSA (standing for London (Heathrow) Customer Service Agent maybe) telling us that anything bad about BA is down to the corporation.

Interesting.....

[Three Thousand Rule]

VS-LHRCSA

I don't know if anyone is blaming the agents, I wouldn't. Deming ( a quality guru) used to say that the workers are only responsible for 10-20% of the quality performance of the company and that management carry the burden of the other 80-90%.

Thus I'm sure the agents do their best and it is not because of them that the performance is unacceptable, but the real issue here is why a company (a) breach a contract, (b) fail to abide by an EU directive over compensation for denied boarding and (c) apparently are not capable of recognising that a+b occured and rectifying it quickly.

I second Hipennine's approach.

[PAXboy]

This man helped the Japanese to understand customer service and that was 45 or so years ago! W. Edwards Deming - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming)

Companies cut back on training and the number/quality of staff - but the PR department carry on as usual, if not redoubling their efforts. So complaints start to rise. Unfortunately, the CS department has also cut back on training and the number/quality of staf. The company may then be said to endlessly fly 'circuits and bumps' of poor service and poor response. I am NOT saying that is where BA is, their situation has been discussed in here many times and their 'end of natural era' position.

Slight thread drift but on the theme of electronic response:

To give further support to Hipennine's approach to reaction, my view when a written reply is needed:


We used to write letters and expect a reply within ten days.
We used to send faxes and expect a reply within three days.
We send an e-mail and expect a reply in 24 hours.

I find it staggering that I can send an enquiry to 'info@' or 'contact@' and get ZERO reply. I find this on big companies, such as a recent enquiry to National Express coach about buying a ticket. ZERO reply and I presume that, after four weeks, they are not going to reply because they did not get it.

The idea that customers can send requests to a company at a time to suit them (i.e. 03:00) and the company can repsond during normal working hours - and they DON'T?

[Gibon2]

It is interesting that many large companies do respond to complaints within 24 hours - including some very large companies that have many more customers than BA, and presumably many more complaints.

Now, the companies like BA that typically take weeks to respond nevertheless must keep up with the flow - if they receive 5,000 complaints a day, they must answer 5,000 complaints a day. Otherwise, the backlog would grow constantly larger. But if they can deal with the complaints at the same rate that they arrive, why have a backlog at all? If you can answer 5,000 complaints a day, why not answer the 5,000 that actually arrived that day? You may need to invest in some extra effort to clear an initial backlog, but once you've done that, you can be responding to your customers within 24 hours for the same cost that you previously incurred to respond to them in four weeks.

I can only conclude, therefore, that the delay in BA's case (and in many other airlines, phone and electricity companies, etc) is deliberate, intended to make a certain proportion of people forget about their complaints and go away. Can anyone confirm this, and if indeed it is a commercially sensible approach?

(By the way, just so I can get come perspective on those 5,000 daily complaints to BA, approximately how many passengers does BA carry each day?)

[manintheback]

BA carry around 31.5 million passengers a year, somewhat down from their peak of 40million plus in 2002. So currently thats avergaing around 86000 a day.

Difficult to believe they get 5000 complaints a day - that would be 1 in 17 passengers.

[GroundedSLF]

It sounds to me like a common issue I have had to deal with over many years working in the industry.
The problem was that whoever rebooked your GLA-LCY flight into LHR did not follow correct proceedure (ie re-protected you in the correct way), and becasue of this, the GDS only saw that there was no travel on the first leg - and so cancelled the remainder of the booking. By the way, I totally understand why airlines cancel itineraries that dont travel as booked - its to get around clever travel agents who work the fares system to their advantage - I remember years ago booking Concorde to MEX (with the NYC-MEX sector as "open") and halving the cost of the ticket, with no problem not travelling on the JFK-MEX sectors...

When I worked in an agency in an operational role, this sort of issue was generally rectified fairly quickly as the pax would call us, we would call our airline rep, and problem would be sorted (providing enough time given - ie pax checked in early).

Good luck - though I suspect that you wont need it - totally BA at fault.

[astir 8]

Well guys, I don't know whether the letter to Keith Williams demanding "action within 7 days or else" had any effect.

But today the Much Beloved had a phone call from BA in which they admitted responsibility for the fiasco. Apparently after the GLA - LCY flight was cancelled, BA listed her as being on a different alternative flight from Glasgow to Heathrow than the one on which they actually put her. Then listed her as a no show for it! :ugh::ugh:

MB reckons that the BA rep actually sounded embarassed about it and was also unhappy about the people in Gibraltar.

BA says MB to send them copies of bills etc. We'll see how it goes from here re expenses and compensation, but it's a start! :ok::ok:

[VS-LHRCSA]

Well, that's good to hear, Astir 8. Hopefully she will be paid all expenses and given an apology.

I should point out, I have been cabin crew, ground staff and customer relations exec assistant. I'm not blaming the company or anyone else but I am addressing Hipennine's comment about 'p.poor attitude to customer service by big corporates, which is inculcated into their staff'. I am stressing that amid the apathy and poor performance, there ARE staff, in many departments, that DO care about customer service.

I should have been more clear, the 5000 figure was what we told in training back in 2007. I was referring to letters, not individual complaints, that need to be responded to. Some complaints will generate more than one letter. Other letters are not necessarily complaints, either, they may well be commendations or pre-travel requests.

[astir 8]

I should add, that I don't believe that we would have got this far this fast with BA without the advice tendered by all of you PProoners! I strongly suspect that without the approach via the CEO that we would still be awaiting responses via the automated email system.

Thanks everyone!

I'll let you know how things go, but now that Mrs Astir is convinced that it wasn't some fault on her part, she will be looking for a tad more than expenses and an apology from BA. Time for me to sit back and watch the fun!

[PAXboy]

Thread drift
VS-LHRCSAI have been cabin crew, ground staff and customer relations exec assistant.
You do know that makes you certifiable, don't you? :E :p

[Three Thousand Rule]

Hi Astir8

Please to hear things are moving.

Don't let your beloved forget to claim 400€ (EU261/2004) denied board compensation for GIB-LHR. (Article 7.)

Then she'll being wanting reimbursement of the ticketed cost for the GIB-LHR-GLA segments (Article 8.)

And finally she will be wanting all other costs (easyJet ticket) etc due to BA leaving her to find her own way home.

[Diver_Dave]

FlyBe have a blisteringly fast service standard....

Dear Sir/Madam

Thank you for your email.

We would like to assure you that your comments have been forwarded
to a member of the Customer Relations Team and you will receive a
response within 28 days.

In this case that response was a copy and paste, 'Do go away irritating
person...' mail that came from someone who clearly hadn't read the mail.
I assume hoping that the complaint will just evaporate and they won't
actually have to acknowledge an 'issue' I have....

Still, I only have to use them on the MAN-SOU route now, as their 'cheap'
option to FRA is no longer available I have to use LH, who haven't let
me down yet...[1]

Regards

DaveA


[1] Should that read: I have to use LH, who haven't let me down, yet...

[Ancient Observer]

I do not know how BA are doing with the 400 Euro compensation, but in my experience it is Easyjet's policy to ignore claims for it until you write to the CEO.
They did nothing with 4 registered post letters from me until I got hold of a Director's personal e-mail.

[Chuchinchow]

I think that a sensibly worded threat of a County Court prosecution clears corporate minds quickly and admirably.

Writing a compensation cheque is far cheaper than defending an annoying court summons.

[PAXboy]

It's standard policy for LCCs to ignore complaints, it's obviously part of their budget policy.
No LCC will allow itself to be taken to court for something it will lose, the floodgates WILL be kept closed.
Simples! :ok:

[astir 8]

3000

thanks for that advice, have passed it on to herself. You know, I'd forgotten about her asking for her money back from BA for the unused segments. Doh!!!

[JacobRowe]

Help!
Some close family friends of mine are currently stuck on a remote island in the bahamas due to Hurricane Irene. As a result they do not have any communications to the outside world, but luckily they got word back that they are safe. BA wont let us rebook any flights and wont put him on any flights for at least 10 days because he missed his original flight (because his local flight wasnt able to fly)... I was wandering if the person who sent the letter to the CEO had a postal address, as I can only find his email... Thanks in advance :/

[PAXboy]

Hi JacobRowe and welcome aboard.

The problem is that your friend has been given the right information, according to long established small print. When a flight is canx due to weather or other events the process is this:

The next flight that can operate, will carry all of it's DUE BOOKED pax. THEN they will load as many extras from the canx flight/s. This will continue until all the folks that missed their flight are carried.

The reason is that:
If you take 100% of pax from flight 1 and 2 that did not operate, and put them on to flights 3 and 4, you have upset double the number of pax and caused double the amount of problems for everyone. Then you have to consider if you move 1/2 to 3/4, then you moved all those of 3 and 4 and put them on 5 and 6???

It is far better to keep to the original schedule and then get those other pax away by whatever means possible, including on other carriers etc. On mainland, there are other options of other airports and trains, coaches and hire cars. But an island has a very particular problem ...

I was in NYC when the large scale power cut brought the NE seaboard to a halt in August 2003. My flight was due to leave the next morning and I was already at JFK. That was Thursday night and my Friday flight did not operate. The earliest that BA could get me out was Monday from EWR. I then claimed on my insurance.

Since all the Carribbean islands are used to hurricanes, they have a well established process to get people off (and back on) their island. Sorry, but that is how it's going to be. No, I do not work for a carrier and you will probably find someone who does stops by this thread shortly.

Your friend can plead special circumstances with the carrier but so will every other pax!. Now, at the risk of sounding harsh, they are still alive and will be able to travel home. Yes, it is a pain and yes it may cost them money but - they are alive.

I just checked the BBC, here are the islans that they mention as having received damage of one kind or another.


Bahamas
Acklins and Crooked Islands
Puerto Rico
Dominican Republic
The Turks and Caicos
Mayaguana
Cat Island
Long Island
Eleuthera


Sorry, but they will all want to get home or get back home. Unfortunately, on the US mainland, it is reported that 13 people have died.

[astir 8]

In response to the question asked, the address I used was

Mr Keith Williams
CEO British Airways
Waterside
PO Box 365
Harmondsworth
UB7 0GB

I lifted that address from the BA website so don't know whether it is the ideal address or not, but it seemed to work. I hope that the original flight booked off the island was BA linked or the "No show" fine print could be invoked for the return flight

Incidentally a week has now gone by since the Much Beloved sent details of her expenses etc to BA as they requested. There has been no further reaction.:ugh::ugh:

[PAXboy]

BBC News - Irene: Thousands of British travellers stranded in US (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-14713724)

Extracts from the article:
Airlines are beginning to resume normal services but passengers face delays as UK-bound flights are already full.

British Airways and Virgin Atlantic are putting on extra flights but BA warned delays would take "a few days" to resolve.

Some 9,000 planes were grounded by the storm, with New York among the cities which closed its airports.
British Airways said it had two days' worth of flights to catch up on and had sent three extra planes to serve Newark and JFK airports in New York.

"It's the peak time of year for travel. People are coming back from summer holidays to start school, so flights are full anyway."

Other eastern cities such as Boston and Baltimore were also affected. It is unclear how many British passengers are stranded but the Association of British Travel Agents (Abta) said as many as 10,000 British holidaymakers could currently be in New York.And that's just the mainland, where they can more easily move people. Death toll now at 40.

[manintheback]

Must be something in the water at Gibraltar.

Got wrongly charged for baggage on return from there the other day. 1 call to customer relations at BA on return - number is on the website, they opened a case file and about 5 minutes later was informed a cheque would be in the post today. Couldnt have been simpler (or better handled)

[Hotel Tango]

It would seem to indicate that GIB ground handling (BA or 3rd party?) obviously lack the required training - or to be blunt, don't know what the heck they're doing!

[astir 8]

Well guys

the Much Beloved received a verbal offer from BA this afternoon.

A refund of the Easyjet ticket, plus £50 "contribution" for petrol for me having to do a round trip of 270 miles to Glasgow to pick her up, plus a £250 discount voucher off her next flight with BA!!!:}

Note that there was no mention of her Eu400 statutory entitlement for denied boarding under EU261/2004.

BA regard her having missed her last train home as a "consequential loss" equivalent to their flight having been late and therefore deny responsibility!!!!

We have told BA to think again and have threatened solicitor, publicity in the press and the internet etc unless MB gets the Eu 400 plus my £121 cost of 270 miles at 45p/mile.

The BA rep said that he would "consult his boss"

Frankly I never thought that BA would make such a blatant attempt to evade their responsibility. :mad::mad:

[astir 8]

Further to my last post, reply from BA that "denied boarding" only applies to an overbooking situation!!!

They are refusing to amend their offer.

Have told them to send the Easyjet fare but it's not stopping there.

[Hipennine]

Astir,

Beware, accepting anything offered may be construed by a court as a full and final settlement. There is quite a lot of legal precedents on this, so if you think the end game is court, be careful.

[ExXB]

Further to my last post, reply from BA that "denied boarding" only applies to an overbooking situation!!!

They are refusing to amend their offer.

Have told them to send the Easyjet fare but it's not stopping there.

Perhaps you should remind them of the language in the regulation:

(j) "denied boarding" means a refusal to carry passengers on a flight, although they have presented themselves for boarding under the conditions laid down in Article 3(2), except where there are reasonable grounds to deny them boarding, such as reasons of health, safety or security, or inadequate travel documentation;

Article 3 (2) reads:

2. Paragraph 1 shall apply on the condition that passengers:

(a) have a confirmed reservation on the flight concerned and, except in the case of cancellation referred to in Article 5, present themselves for check-in,

- as stipulated and at the time indicated in advance and in writing (including by electronic means) by the air carrier, the tour operator or an authorised travel agent,

or, if no time is indicated,

- not later than 45 minutes before the published departure time; or

(b) have been transferred by an air carrier or tour operator from the flight for which they held a reservation to another flight, irrespective of the reason.

Denied boarding does not only apply to 'oversales'. It applies, for example, in cases where the aircraft is downsized. From your explanation it would seem that the passenger had a confirmed reservation and presented herself at the time indicated.

BA screwed up royally on this one. They should simply cut the BS and pay up as required by the regulation.

[PAXboy]

astir 8I never thought that BA would make such a blatant attempt to evade their responsibility.It's a numbers game.


Calculate how many pax per year are denied boarding due to failure by the company (all reasons, downsizing/mistake/etc.)
Calculate the average full legal cost of reimbursment/compensation (they will have detailed figures for every route every day)
Calculate how many pax accept the first or second offer and then go away. (they will know!)
Calculate the difference.
Programme your staff accordingly!

[Gibon2]

BA certainly "screwed up royally" and should just pay out without further ado. But if they want to be difficult, they may be able to justify wriggling out of the regulation quoted by ExXB:

2. Paragraph 1 shall apply on the condition that passengers:

(a) have a confirmed reservation on the flight concerned and, except in the case of cancellation referred to in Article 5, present themselves for check-in,



BA could argue that the passenger did not in fact have a confirmed reservation on the flight, so could not be "denied boarding" within the meaning of the regulation. Now the reason the passenger did not have a confirmed reservation is that some fool at BA had cancelled it by mistake. But that doesn't change the fact that at the time boarding was denied, a reservation did not exist.

[astir 8]

Thanks for all the advice guys. We have withdrawn the request for the Easyjet fare refund and have received an email from BA confirming this.

Concerning the BA offer they state "I am sorry to hear that you do not want to accept the cheque and voucher we offered you. We realised that we had let you down and wanted to pass our apologies to you, together with a gesture of goodwill"

That's a new definition of goodwill in my book!

We'll stick to a full refund of all costs plus 400 Euros for "denied boarding" on the basis of breach of contract resulting from twofold errors by BA (getting the "no show" wrong in Glasgow and then refusal by BA representatives in Gibraltar to verify the facts of the case before denying boarding.

We will continue to make an infernal nuisance of ourselves (letters to CEO, CAA, press etc) and will use small claims court if it goes that far.

cheers again guys :ok:

[VS-LHRCSA]

I'm genuinely disappointed in the response you have gotten, considering your letter made it to one of the executive assistants. That said, in some ways, I am not at all surprised. Some of the hideous complaints that I caught, just prior to going legal, was astounding. Many of them easily solved once somebody actually READ the letter, with a little empathy. One of the reasons I transfered out, truth be told.

[astir 8]

Well we have sent BA "Customer Relations" another letter, copied to Keith Williams stating my interpretation of EU261 which certainly doesn't only refer to denied boarding in terms of overbooking.

We also pointed out (having read EU 261 more thoroughly) that after the initial Glasgow - London city flight which was cancelled, the much beloved was involuntarily rerouted on a Glasgow - Heathrow flight which left about 3 hrs after the originally scheduled departure, so BA should consider the "cancellations" section of EU 261 re compensation for that sector too.

Plus was MB given her written statement of cancellation options as specified by EU 261??? No. :=:=

Hey ho, let's go on with the show. :E:E

[astir 8]

Well hey, suddenly an instant response from BA offering 250 Euros for the cancelled Glasgow - London City flight, but they are still maintaining that MB was not "Denied boarding" in Gibraltar.

So what was it????

Suggestions please? BA obviously don't understand English

[Haven't a clue]

Maybe you should suggest that if they up their compensation from £250 vouchers to €400 sterling equivalant plus the already offered Easyjet fare plus petrol ay £50 plus the €250 compensation they just offered then you'll settle, albeit while continuing to disagree that the actions of their Gib people were effectively denied boarding. Otherwise you go for more in the small claims court.

That seems fair to me, although I think their incompetence in handling the booking should reach a wider audience.

[astir 8]

Hey guess what guys!

Gibon 2 was spot on.

a second email this afternoon from BA "I appreciate that you feel that you were denied boarding at Gibraltar but this was in fact not the case. Due to an error at Glasgow your return ticket was cancelled by mistake. This meant that your ticket was not valid for travel frm Gibraltar. I do understand your inconvenience but unfortunately this is not a situation where we would offer denied boarding compensation"............

"I hope that this will not deter you from chosing British Airways again in the future"

:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

[Stuart Sutcliffe]

Don't be put off. Having once worked in the insurance industry, where this sort of attitude is also prevalent, there is no doubt that persistence pays off. You shouldn't have to be persistent, but it will pay in the end. Start moving on the items you said you would (CAA, press, etc) and keep reminding BA that the cost of your claim just continues to rise the longer they avoid their responsibility.

[ExXB]

Why split hairs? Why don't you offer to acknowledge that 'denied boarding' didn't occur, in exchange for compensation for the inconvenience caused amounting to a total sum of £xxx? If they don't agree you will pursue your claim through the courts and you trust the court will not accept the contention that BA's admitted mistaken cancellation of a booking meant that the Mrs. did not have a confirmed booking. The act of cancelling the booking is also a clear breach of BA's Conditions of Carriage which only allow such for 'cause'.

That way they avoid a precedence and you get what you deserve.

Also NEVER say you will never fly with them again (even if that is your intent), once they hear that they lose all interest in retaining a customer. Something like "We have always chosen BA as our first choice but given this incident and the poor customer service response we fear that we won't be able to do so in the future. A speedy resolution to our claims would allow us to forget this incident and continue to use BA as our favoured airline" :}

[Hipennine]

This case now looks more like a straight contractual issue, rather than EU Denied boarding rules, (although any compensation claim would as a minimum refer to the level of compensation statutorily available for denied boarding). I would suggest that you see if you can get a free half hour consultation with a solicitor specialising in contracts law. From what you've described so far, it may be suitable for a no-win no-fee (some proper solicitors do this as well as "ambulance chasers").

[astir 8]

The day before yesterday I passed the outlines of our problem to the passenger complaints section of the CAA.

The response came "We are currently taking about two months to reply to enquiries"

That explains why BA were unimpressed by my previously saying that I would refer the problem to the CAA!!

Also yesterday we told BA that the offered £250 discount voucher was worthless to us as other than already booked and paid-for flights, Much Beloved has no further travel plans involving BA in the next 12 months (the life of the voucher). We suggested in a spirit of "reasonableness" that if BA offered £250 cash instead, we would forget the denied boarding compensation and the additional costs (45 pence/mile for 270 miles) of collecting MB from Glasgow.

On their performance to date I'm not expecting a positive response from BA so we will then go the breach of contract legal redress route as suggested by Hipennine. However the proffered "reasonableness" won't hurt in court.

[SLF3]

Flew short haul in Europe for the first time in five years last week - all my travel in recent years has been long haul.

Coincidentally with BA. Tired, tatty plane, the 'meal' was a packet of two biscuits on a two hour evening flight. Dispirited staff who clearly didn't believe in it either. Squalid is the only word I can think of to describe it. At destination, mate told me SAS is worse.

And the above is what happens when it all goes wrong.

Remind me, why I should I prefer to fly with a legacy carrier?

Are there any legacy carriers in Europe worth paying a premium for?

[RevMan2]

Due to an error at Glasgow your return ticket was cancelled by mistake. This meant that your ticket was not valid for travel frm Gibraltar

Talk about Kafka-esque!

Apply this principle further and the RM people will look at a hopelessly overbooked flight, get some scapegoat to "inadvertantly" delete a batch of bookings and BINGO - they don't have to pay DBC.

Or they'll bring back the requirement to reconfirm your reservation 48 hours before departure, give you a premium phone number at £5 a minute with a staff of ghosts and then say when you turn up for the flight "Aaaah, but you didn't reconfirm and we've had to cancel your booking"

Hang in there.

[astir 8]

The local paper is interested in the story. They are to send a photographer to get a picture of Much Beloved.

Suggested article title "Pensioner dumped in Gibraltar by British Airways" or similar.

[astir 8]

Just a wee update.

Email from BA this morning turning down Much Beloved's offer to accept expenses plus £250 cash instead of their £250 discount voucher.

And BA have decided, without her agreement, to unilaterally send her the £495 in expenses (Easyjet cost + the £50 "gesture" towards my driving 270 miles), but without the discount voucher!

The local press phoned BA today. BA told them that MB had agreed to settle!

So BA are not only Kafka-esque (love that expression!) but downright liars as well!:D:D

[PAXboy]

Go Team PPRuNe Go! :D :}

I recall reading a few months ago that KLM had started monitoring sites like Tw!tter so that they could get fast feedback. I read that, during the delays caused by the volcanoes, someone was Tweet!ng that KLM had done nothing for them and that he was thirsty, saying where he was. They found him and brought him a bottle of water. He sent an update on how good KLM were.

What makes me think that BA have not worked this one out yet?? But, as has been said many times before. Great company but past their best and coasting to a halt.

Flight crew great, cabin crew great, love flying with them. Pity about their mgt.

[Diver_Dave]

I recall reading a few months ago that KLM had started monitoring sites like Tw!tter so that they could get fast feedback

Indeed!

The most famous is the Lily Allen / BT incident

BT doesn't make Lily Allen smile - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/finance/comment/citydiary/7330719/BT-doesnt-make-Lily-Allen-smile.html)

And I am SO SORRY!

How 'BT Sarah' spies on your Facebook account: secret new software allows BT and other firms to trawl internet looking for disgruntled customers | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1284363/How-BT-Sarah-spies-Facebook-account-secret-new-software-allows-BT-firms-trawl-internet-looking-disgruntled-customers.html)

And I was at a conference where BT spoke about it from the other side.

Have to disagree with the second link as social media is by definition,
'anyone? anyone? Bueller?' social. If you broadcast how can it be spying? I'm
personally intrigued by the cited data protection issues as that applies
to 'private' data.

Anyway back to the issue....

I second Paxboy's comments and do agree 'Kafkaesque' is a wonderful
term. Although I do think there's touches of Saramago there as well :-)

[Hotel Tango]

Well, BA are obviously not trawling PPRuNe otherwise they would have settled to Astir's satisfaction by now. Take them to court Astir, you're on a winner. It's high time BA management idiots (yes that's what they are) realise that making the paying customer pay for their staff and system incompetence is NOT the way to run a business!

[ExXB]

I cannot see how a court could possibly side with BA's reading of the regulation. MB did have a confirmed reservation and took no action to change it or cancel it. BA did cancel it but failed to notify MB of that fact. Such cancellation was not made under any of their Conditions of Carriage/Contract. This is not a get out of jail fee card.

Now BA would hate to have a court rule against them in this case - it would set a precedent. Go for the jugular, it serves them right for doing what they did, and failing to acknowledge it was solely their fault, and to make amends.

[PAXboy]

The court won't have to side with Astir8's MB or BA. The whole point of being willing and able to show that you WILL take them to court for breach of contract - will cause them to settle with you. The court case is far more publicity than they want.

As to 'public/private' social media - one has to presume that everything said on line is available to everyone. Various privacy settings may have been set - but you must presume that they will fail.

[ross_M]

Isn't this ripe for a Class Action Lawsuit? If BA's been turning people down for deserved compensation as a matter of policy it sure seems liable.

Just need an enterprising attorney to collect a bunch of disgruntled customers. I have fond memories of a class action circa 2005 which yielded me ~ $100 from BA. Something about them having overcharged for fuel surcharges. Sweet! :ok:

[astir 8]

Well a nice 8 inch square article including photo of the Much Beloved appeared in the "Strathspey & Badenoch Herald" yesterday. Large title "Retired nurse battles BA" with quotes about how her past cancer treatment has left her subject to stress-induced gastric upsets and that the Gibraltar affair triggered an episode.

OK the "Strathy" doesn't have the circulation of the Sun, but it's a start.

We sent the cutting off to Keith Williams with a summary of the fiasco to date and an assurance that despite BA statements to the press that the problem has been settled, that this is not the case and legal action still on the cards.

All for what? 400 Euros + £71 more in expenses. BA must be more strapped for cash than we think.

[Chuchinchow]

I have followed this thread with growing concern and perturbation.

I am concerned that Mr & Mrs Astir B are apparently being stonewalled by BA and perturbed that the tale is not getting better publicity.

If BA flacks do not (or maybe will not) follow this thread here on PPRuNe Forums - Professional Pilots Rumour Network (http://www.pprune.org) I know for a fact that Keith Williams' minions do actively participate in British Airways Executive Club - FlyerTalk Forums (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/british-airways-executive-club-446/). The travel trade press also reads that board.

Astir B does not necessarily have to be a BAEC member to publish there - but he is guaranteed a wider exposure to the right audience.

[Chuchinchow]

how does one do the link between websites?

Just type in the URL; the PPRuNe system does the rest for you.

Good luck!

[Chuchinchow]

15th Sep 2011, 10:51 #77 (permalink)
Chuchinchow

Join Date: Feb 2010
Location: Hamptonne
Posts: 346
Quote:
how does one do the link between websites?
Just type in the URL; the PPRuNe system does the rest for you.

Good luck!

15th Sep 2011, 11:02 #78 (permalink)
astir 8

Join Date: Feb 2002
Location: Inverness-shire
Posts: 354
Thanks for that advice, Chuchin - I'll give it a go.

ps - how does one do the link between websites? I'd like to cross reference Flyertalk to this thread.

[astir 8]

Thanks for that advice, Chuchin - I'll give it a go.

ps - how does one do the link between websites? I'd like to cross reference Flyertalk to this thread.

pps - A cheque arrived yesterday from BA for their version of our expenses. As previously stated, we have neither agreed nor accepted this sum, so it's staying in my drawer for now, plus notification sent to BA that we do not accept it as a final settlement.

[astir 8]

Sorry Chuchin, I was doing an edit and your answer must have got there before I sent the edited version back. Interesting result!

[Chuchinchow]

Thanks for that advice, Chuchin

:):) Such familiarity on so short an acquaintance! :):)

[finncapt]

Having worked for BA and lived with someone who spent some 18 years dealing with cases similar to yours, within BA, I must say that perhaps you have not given all the facts of the case.

Particularly as you have now egged the story by playing on the "Jennifer's ear" aspect of the case.

Normally BA tend to err on the side of the complainant unless there are strong reasons for not doing so.

[astir 8]

Hi Finncappt

All the facts have been provided. Jennifer's Ear - don't know that one. MB was being questioned by the press. But it's quite true. She was a psychiatric nurse for 40 years so BA hold no terrors.


Mr Chuchinchow - deepest apologies sir! Anyway as advised I started a thread on Flyertalk which seems to have become quite popular.

[astir 8]

Hi guys

just as an update. BA have, without our agreement, sent us a cheque for £495.25. This was their original offer on expenses (Easyjet fare + £50 "goodwill gesture" towards the cost of me having to drive down to Glasgow to pick up the MB.

We have therefore sent BA a letter stressing a) We do not accept this sum as final settlement of the problem b) We won't be cashing it until the problem is settled.

Seems a good example of BA attempting to steamroller an agrrement on their terms.

There's been a very positive response (backing us) on Flyertalk. We mailed a copy of the newspaper article to Keith Williams but have seen no signs of movement or heard any more from BA.

We'll start the small claims process next week but it could take a while. We'll keep you posted.

cheers
Astir & MB

[PAXboy]

War of Jennifer's Ear - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jennifer%27s_ear)

[PAXboy]

An interesting, but possibly unrelated, item. I post this as an example of mgmt making changes to make savings and making things worse, whilst the staff are ignored.

I live in the Home Counties of the UK (i.e. in a country that neighbours to Greater London) and we have noticed our postal delivery getting erratic and much later in the day - across the last number of weeks. I now read that (and here I edit down from the article but do NOT paraphrase):

The Communication Workers Union said the problem had been caused by postmen being given larger rounds to complete. The [area] delivery manager for Royal Mail, said it was trying to balance "cost and service".

The Union, said some rounds had increased by 200 to 300 drop points. "The normal time of leaving the office would be about 10:00 BST to get their deliveries finished by 14:00 BST.We've [now] got postmen not leaving here until 11:00 BST or sometimes 13:00 BST so it's been impossible for them to do a complete delivery of their mail."

[Area manager's name] said managers were now checking that routes had been planned correctly and staff were working at the appropriate rate. He added: "My anticipation is that we will have the routes back on an even keel by this timenext week."

So ... the manager made changes that did not work and caused problems for the customers and staff. Now they are reviewing it and hope to make it work in just a week? Hhmm, sounds like another manager that does not know his job and did not ask anyone that DOES the job before introducing changes. Had they thought of testing it out carefully before upsetting customers whose alternatives are minimal?

I'm glad they want to save money but there is always the point at which you meet the law of diminshing returns and very few managers seem to know where that line is these days.

[Hotel Tango]

So ... the manager made changes that did not work and caused problems for the customers and staff. Now they are reviewing it and hope to make it work in just a week? Hhmm, sounds like another manager that does not know his job and did not ask anyone that DOES the job before introducing changes. Had they thought of testing it out carefully before upsetting customers whose alternatives are minimal?

Happens only too often these days. It's the same where I work. Too many educated (I use the term advisedly) university graduates with a sack full of paper qualifications but no work experience whatsoever in the industry they're managing in. They honestly believe that simply because of their mountain of academic qualifications they know it all and never bother to consult and learn from those in the front line. It's a cancer in many industries.

[TSR2]

Happens only too often these days. It's the same where I work. Too many educated (I use the term advisedly) university graduates with a sack full of paper qualifications but no work experience whatsoever in the industry they're managing in. They honestly believe that simply because of their mountain of academic qualifications they know it all and never bother to consult and learn from those in the front line. It's a cancer in many industries.

Absolutely spot on Hotel Tango. Unfortunately, experience counts for little these days.

[RevMan2]

There's a program in Germany called "Jugend forscht", a competition for young scientists that translates literally as "Youth researches".

We had waves of rocket-arse graduates, reinventing the wheel (the one with a rim and no spokes that every KNEW didn't work...) and decrying anyone with a) experience and b) no tertiary qualifications as ""sticks in the mud" or worse.

I can accept scepticism when confronted with old fogies saying "We've tried that and it didn't work", but NOT if it's "We've tried that and it didn't work because of xyz"

They then fly off to wreak irreparable damage elsewhere.

Royal Mail needed to rapid prototype a route to get proof of concept, adjust for the unexpected and THEN implement.

Anything else in madness.

[PAXboy]

All too true. I was very lucky in my telecommunications career in that, when I started there were no courses and qualifications as the particular job was new and the field in which I landed was expanding very rapidly (1979 onwards). So you just did and got promoted or chucked out.

Consequently, I started as a telephone operator - yes with large headphones and plugging cables into sockets! I then became Supervisor, deputy manager, manager and so on until I was a freelance consultant. At the end of my time in the game (2003 and in my mid-40s) I was 'Amused' to find that the 25 year olds knew more than I did. :hmm:

In another thread, I posted recently that my supermarket delivery men have difficulty with the hand held electronic device for monitoring their round and getting customer signatures. It is often unreliable. I made a suggestion to one of the men and he said, "No point in telling my manager that - he already knows everything."

In the above Royal Mail story, I don't doubt that there might have been an element of recalcitrance from the staff BUT it is the managers job to handle that too. In the MBA that call that 'getting buy in from all'. It would appear that the 'manager' didn't do that either.

When I hear these stories - and simialr from my friends that still work as employees in commerce - I am so glad to be pottering along quietly as self-employed. I only have to argue with/blame myself. :ok:

[RevMan2]

I always used try to hire 20-some year olds....they knew everything...

[Chuchinchow]

Where is Astir 8 to update us on what is happening? Or is this thread just going to die with a whimper?

[astir 8]

Mr Chuchinchow and other interested readers

Believe me, this is not going to die out with a whimper.

The situation currently is that Mrs A emailed BA Customer Relations on 15th September. She stated that the cheque for £495 (Easyjet fare plus the £50 "goodwill gesture" which had been unilaterally sent to her would not be accepted as final settlement nor cashed until agreement is reached.

She restated a claim for a total of £573 (our expenses) plus 400 Euros as compensation for BA's breach of contract in cancelling her ticket. The figure of 400 Euros was arrived at as being the equivalent of the EU 261 "Denied boarding" compensation.

On the 15th she also surface mailed a letter addressed to Keith Williams, enclosing a copy of the newspaper article and photograph "Ex nurse battles BA over flight problems" , restating the story of the whole fiasco and especially the unhelpful attitude of the BA representatives in Gibraltar.

She restated her case for £573 expenses plus Eu400 compensation resulting from BA's breach of contract and explaining her reason for rejecting the reduced expenses plus £250 discount voucher originally offered by BA. She told the CEO that she would if necessary pursue the claim legally and requested his assistance to sort out the problem.

A week later there has been absolutely no response to either communication

Oh except of course a new set of adverts "To Fly, To Serve"!!!! on the TV.

So today she will be sending a formal letter to BA giving them 7 days to respond to the problem. This is an essential component of the Small Claims legal process.

[astir 8]

Just seen the pop up latest from BA

"To fly, to serve" Because it's not just a slogan, it's a promise"


Does this mean that the Much Beloved can sue BA for breach of promise?

a) They refused to fly her
b) The service from the BA staff in Gibraltar was non existent :=:=:=

[ExXB]

Just seen the pop up latest from BA

"To fly, to serve" Because it's not just a slogan, it's a promise"


Does this mean that the Much Beloved can sue BA for breach of promise?

a) They refused to fly her
b) The service from the BA staff in Gibraltar was non existent :=:=:=

They don't actually say they are going to fly, or serve, you (or MB). From my experiences they certainly didn't serve me.

[PAXboy]

Perhaps the logo/slogan/motto (that I have though damm silly the moment it was introduced) is aspirational, not promissary?

If they had admitted the problem with the carriage of a 8/MB, and paid a little more than what they would have liked, they would be home and dry with a reputation for sorting out problems. But the modern mgmt style of sticking to the rules means they will have already spent infinetly more on responding to the claim - whilst producing bad publicity. It is so obvious and simple but many corporates have lost the human touch and fail to place themselves in the position of their client. So often corporates are their own worst enemies.

[Hotel Tango]

:ok: Absolutely bang on PAXboy

[radeng]

probably caused by teh advent of load of young MBAs with no experience in eitehr management or customer relations. Of course, usually, MBA stands for Much Bigger As***le.

[PAXboy]

Once again in this forum I exhort BA mgmt to look at the history of Continental and read about Gordon Bethune and his four-point Go Forward Pla. Not an elegant name - but it saved the company, saved the jobs and brought them back from the brink.

Once again, as I have said before, BA is not yet on the brink and the nature of humans is that they cannot pul back UNTIL they are on the brink.

Once again, I do not wish to see BA / IAG fail but they have a loooong way to go before they are safe. Meanwhile, there is so much that they could do. All that is needed, is some people interested in running an airline business, rather than running any business and it happens to be an airline.

The same problem is regularly visible in Hollywood with people who would get as much enjoyment from making baked beans.

[RevMan2]

Of course, usually, MBA stands for Much Bigger As***le

Mediocre, but arrogant....

[Pax Vobiscum]

Master of Bull$hit Articulation

[PAXboy]

This is thread drift in that it does not discuss airlines but I think it relevant to our discussion about midern mgmt.

On Saturday I came across another example of mgmt by numbers - rather than by what is actually happing at the 'coal face'.

A private hospital. Saturdays are sometimes quiet and sometimes busy, depending on what list of operations are to be performed and how many patients are in for the weekend. So the mgmt often drop one of the junior ward staff from a Saturday to save money. This often leads to the rest running very much faster in order to keep the standard of care where they want it to be.

So far, so very ordinary. Mgmt get patted on the back for saving money and the staff work harder and resent the mgmt a little bit more.

Last Saturday, the mgmt (on Friday) looked at the list and decreed that one person should be dropped. But that person did not get their message and turned up on Saturday and worked as per their rota. Which was just as well because the patients they did have were complex and two needed very close attention. Even with the full compliment of staff - they were rushed off their feet.

The nursing staff are waiting for the calamity and desperatly hoping that they can see it in time before one of their patients is in crisis.

It will not surprise you to learn that this hospital was part of a group taken over last year and, since then:


Many 'cost savings' have been put in place.
Many new procedures that appear to safeguard process' but can delay staff in getting access to test results or other aspects of care. Highly competent nursing staff of 25+ years experience having to be trained how to use computers to log work and tests, so as to save having secretarial support. Mgmt save staff (well done, have a bonus)
Experienced staff sent on training courses to tick boxes but telling them things they already know - rather than teaching them new things.

The staff, generally, work well together and pull together for their patients. But staff turnover is creeping up because pay rates are worse than the NHS and complaining is not going to get you anywhere.

This example could be any major corporation selling furniture or airline seats or hospital treatment. The point in common is that the business is preventing it's staff from giving of their best and - when something goes wrong - it will be their fault. So they leave. This pushes up the costs again but mgmt can easily brush that under the table.

When the inevitable happens? "We have instigated a full inquiry to ensure that this does not ahppen again, our thoughts are with the ..." So flippin' predictable.

[sgainford]

I should have arrived at the airport three hours early for my British Airways flight to Verona however when I got to Victoria station to take a 35 minute train to Gatwick airport, a water main had just exploded and flooded all the train tracks. I quickly jumped on another train going to East Croyden where I then got a replacement bus service to the airport. I could have still made my flight but 2 miles outside the airport the traffic completely stopped. When I finally got into the airport I had 20 minutes before my flight, but British Airways wouldn’t let me fly, which is understandable enough.
But the understanding stops there. British Airways then charged me a hefty £60 to change my flight to the next day. Hundreds of people missed their flight because of the transportation problems that was no fault of their own, but British Airways charged them all £60 to transfer their flight to the next day. However other airlines were a lot more understanding, like Easy Jet, which didn’t charge their customers anything.
I asked British airways, who are always advertising how much they understand their customers and care for them, where did they get the arbitrary charge of £60, why did they have to charge so much, and why did other airlines like Easy Jet not charge their customers anything? They wrote back in a cold robotic way and basically told me to piss off.
British Airways definitely made a lot of money that day. And I actually originally paid £20 more to fly with them because I bought into their brand and thought they were more reliable and understanding. But from my experience, and other people I have talked to since then about their negative experience with British Airways, I think those days are over and I think they need to change their brand song from the Flower Duet to John Lee Hookers ‘I need money’ song. At least I’m giving my money to Easy Jet next time.

[PAXboy]

Hi, sgainford, and welcome aboard! You will find this cabin flies in all weathers although, sometimes, the bad weather is inside the cabin. :}

Your story is an excellant one given the main topic of the week, do read the whole of the BA new advert thread (with the various links in the postings) because you have just proved in one short post that 'to fly to serve' is just marketing jazz. If they had taken the action against one lone pax? Sure. If a significant group of pax fell into the same black traffic hole? THAT'S when the legacy airline has the power and clout to win serious positive reviews but EZY showed that they have it now. I have been a fan of EZY since day one and they are my first choice (pun intended!) for short haul.

Earlier in this thread, we discussed the inability of Waterside (BA's castle) to follow social media and see when something has gone wrong. They still could - on your specific problem - write to all the pax involved. "Dear pax, when you arrived late at LGW, you will understand that we had to implement our usual rules. However, we can now see that n [they know exactly how many] people were in the same situation. Accordingly, we are refunding the surcharge and hope to see you with us again soon."

That, and the problem of the original poster (op) (astir8), would cost much less than a quarter of one second of their silly TV advert and do far more good. :hmm:

[TightSlot]

Don't we need just a bit more evidence and/or proof before we accept the contents of that rant as being absolute fact? I'm willing to bet that the circumstances are slightly more complicated than stated, for all parties involved.

BA don't appear to have done anything illegal - they appear to have applied the precise terms and conditions of the contract. This behaviour is not viewed as being caring or understanding, in part because it doesn't provide a result that sgainford wants or likes - In younger people, this is known as a tantrum. The BA decision to apply the charges may, or may not (and it is arguable) have been a sound business decision: The market will find them out in the end, as it always does, and is surely doing so when sgainford decides to take future business elsewhere.

I think that sgainford had a tough break, and deserves our sympathy: I'm sure that it was maddening and that we would all be equally cross. At the same time, I would need to be certain that the problem doesn't become a case of "...everybody else's fault but mine".

[SLF3]

BA are losing money, Easyjet are making it.

So BA try to compete on price with people who have a lower cost base than they do. They lose even more money.

They then reduce service standards to try and cut the losses. People spot that BA is now offering less than the competition,and see no reason to fly BA.

BA should then go out of business - and if it weren't for LHR they would have done.

BAs only hope is to justify premium pricing by offering a premium service - which they are no longer doing. Every story like this is another nail in the coffin.

[Planemike]

I think that sgainford had a tough break, and deserves our sympathy: I'm sure that it was maddening and that we would all be equally cross. At the same time, I would need to be certain that the problem doesn't become a case of "...everybody else's fault but mine".

sgainford can hardly be responsible for failures in the public transport taking him/her to the airport, therefore it would appear that it was a case of "...everybody else's fault but mine".

Yes, BA are within their legal rights to make the charge. Was it a wise decision given the circumstances? I would not have thought so.

Planemike

[radeng]

Within their legal rights? Definitely. Way to get repeat business? NO!

And only a set of useless dimwits with no idea of what customers can do when choosing an airline would do it.

Many, many years ago, when company directors flew First Class in our company, BA did something similar on a F class flight to Hong Kong to the sales and marketing guy. The result was that they lost his business - usually 2 F class a year to the Far East, 4 F class to California and one F class to Sydney. Figure how much they lost by being silly and mean! Plus his sales guys no longer flew BA.

[PleasureFlyer]

I think I understand..it was BA's fault that the railway line was flooded and so they have to waive their costs (however unreasonable the £60 is) to rebook people on a different flight for something that was completely in their control.

[Planemike]

I think I understand..it was BA's fault that the railway line was flooded and so they have to waive their costs (however unreasonable the £60 is) to rebook people on a different flight for something that was completely in their control


Pleasure Flyer..........

No, you dont understand PF, it was not BA's fault that the railway line was flooded (they operate aircraft, not trains) but neither was it the fault of the hapless passengers: somebody else may have been at fault or it could have "just been one of those things", today somebody always has to be blamed. Just seems to be a "jobsworth" attitude sticking to the letter of the law in such circumstances.

By being seen to "help out" I am sure Easyjet will have picked up some "Brownie points" with more than a few passengers/customers.

Planemike

[PAXboy]

In my humble line of self-employment (a joy to no longer work for a multi-national!) I often have to give more time (i.e. money) and other things to my clients. Just today, I had a client say, "I didn't expect you to spend so much time on this." That is because I work on a flat fee per commission. The more time I put into it - the less money I make. On paper. One of the ways I know I am doing soemthing right is the level of repeat business that I get and the times that clients will even wait for me to come back from holiday. (If you knew my business, you would find out how VERY unusual that is, though I say it myself)

I have worked in service industries all my working life, some 34 years. Before that, I worked behind the counter at a department store on Saturdays and holidays for my last couple of years of schooling. So I am predisposed to the old adage, "look after the customer - and the customer will look after you." I know that is not always the case, of course. Nowadays many people will just push each and every supplier to deliver the most (which is given in the hope of more business) and then they shove off to the next supplier and pull the same trick again. I've had it happen to me when I was a telecomms consultant.

BUT, overall, customers prefer to stay with one brand. Since the last recession, many companies in the Western world have focused ONLY on the bottom line. Understandable but that's not what doing business with humans is all about.

[Hotel Tango]

"look after the customer - and the customer will look after you."

Something I taught my son many years ago - and which has made him very successful in his field of work today.

[astir 8]

Well folks

The Much Beloved just had a phone call from BA offering the 400 Euros compensation. No more expenses. But she's accepted.

Not quite from their cold dead hands, but close! And "on this occasion only"

A fair result - eventually!! Thanks for all the help PProoners!

:ok::ok:

[crewmeal]

Congratulations astir 8 as long as you're both happy. Six pages on pprune and this thread will finally come to an end. It's probably been one of the longest in pprune's experience regarding a claim. So we will all wait in anticipation for the next BA complaint to be shared with us.

I wonder how much notice BA took of all the comments on here, and whether it swayed any decision making. The one thing I've learn't about this thread is all the invaluable advice that has been given. Beats the 'no win no fee' brigade anytime.

[KBPsen]

So we will all wait in anticipation for the next BA complaint to be shared with us.I have no doubt you all do. Philip Zimbardo would equally no doubt recognize much in this forum.

[PAXboy]

Whilst on the subject of companies that don't understand customers ...
Australian fashion chain issues jaw-dropping response to customer complaint

It's worth reading because the last paragraph from the company, replying to the customer complaint is:

So if you would like to do us any favours, please do not waste our retail staff's time, because as you have already seen, they will not tolerate it. I am sure there are plenty of shops that appease your taste, so I respectfully ask that you side step our store during future window shopping expeditions.

Australian fashion chain issues jaw-dropping response to customer complaint - Yahoo! Lifestyle UK (http://uk.lifestyle.yahoo.com/australian-fashion-chain-issues-jaw-dropping-response-to-customer-complaint.html)

You gotta love the Internet!!

[astir 8]

Crewmeal

Re whether BA have taken any note of this thread.

At the advice of a fellow prooner I started a parallel thread on "Flyertalk" - in the British Airways Executive Club section. Something like 8500 reads and over 100 posts, with virtually 100% anti-BA sentiments voiced.

Allegedly the "Flyertalk" BA section is monitored by BA. In which case they've happily watched themselves being lambasted by their own exec club members for over a month. Errrr????

Anyhow, once the cheque shows up and is in the bank, we must write a letter of thanks to that nice man in BA "Customer Relations" who started all this.

[pego1950]

I'm sure you will not be surprised to hear that British Airways Customer Relations hasn't improved response time or their responses.

[GrahamO]

but neither was it the fault of the hapless passengers: somebody else may have been at fault or it could have "just been one of those things", today somebody always has to be blamed. Just seems to be a "jobsworth" attitude sticking to the letter of the law in such circumstances.

'Fault' is irrelevant - responsibility is the issue. Its is solely, exclusively the responsibility of the passenger to get to the flight and while factors beyond their control undoubtedly prevented this, it remains the responsibility of the passenger to turn up on time.

One can argue about whether BA did the right thing or not, but its their choice and the consequences to their business is theirs to determine.

I would suggest however that the majority of no-shows are unrelated to genuine sob stories, but are simple conscious changes of travel schedule. You cannot run a sensible business by having an army of agony aunts trying to determine the validity of every excuse, so one sets the rules and no exceptions.

One can also be pretty sure that if the majority of posters ran their own business where they had no-shows for their services, a refund of zero was most likely to be the outcome.

[ExXB]

Just curious why this two year old thread was resurrected.

I would have been happy to learn that those (non)-customer service people at BA had seen the errors in their ways, but to be reminded that they haven't doesn't actually add to the knowledge of humankind.

Pego I hope you don't mind my slightly sarcastic response here. For discussion of BA's failings you might prefer the threads over at flyerTalk.com

[MotherInDistress]

I flew to Spain with my son to leave him in a summer camp to 2 weeks. On Sunday afternoon, just before he was due to join the holiday camp, he became ill. A&E in Spain said that if he didn't improve after taking medicine, to be taken direct to the hospital.
I therefore missed my return fly to the UK. Phoned every single number provided by BA to advise them of the problem & that I would have to miss the flight. No response. E-mail sent.
I managed to take my son to the holiday club, but when I arrived at the airport, BA most unhelpful and abusive and made some very distressing comments. Not only I had to pay £768 to return to the UK in a half full plane, but they have now cancelled my return flight to pick up my son and treated me like a criminal in the airplane where I was sick, vomiting and crying.
I have spent money that I don't have on my return fare (BA have now put me in a very serious financial situation) and cannot pay the demanded fee to return to collect my son next week.
Any advise, contacts that can help?
I have send an e-mail to the BBC and phone the Guardian newspaper but have not received a reply yet.

[Gibon2]

Sounds like you've had an utterly miserable experience - I'm sorry. But I'm not sure it's fair to say that BA have "abandoned" your son. Whatever happens, I think you'll do better to stay calm, stick to the facts, state plainly what it is you want, and keep things as clear and simple as possible.

So, take a couple of deep breaths... and here are some things to consider:

1. Travel insurance. This is exactly the kind of situation it is meant for. I'm guessing from your post you don't have any, but please check - some credit cards include limited insurance for tickets bought with the card. And for next time - well, some lessons have to be learned the hard way.

2. Do you have to fly BA to collect your son? Many other airlines fly to Spain (not always directly) - perhaps they are cheaper? Given your experience, I would expect you would want to avoid BA as far as humanly possible.

3. Try to separate out your complaints, and clarify what it is you want done for each of them. BA uncontactable - one thing. Possibly excessive charge for changing the return flight - another thing. Rude, insulting and unhelpful treatment at the airport and on the plane - a third thing. Cancellation (why?) of the flight back to collect your son - a fourth thing.

4. Make sure you have some documentary evidence of your son's illness. Some airlines will waive re-booking fees, etc, if asked nicely and presented with medical certificates or other supporting evidence. And even if BA doesn't, evidence will be helpful in getting redress, whatever channel you use.

What sort of ticket(s) do you have? I presume your son has a simple return ticket UK-Spain. Do you have two of these (one for the drop-off, one for the collect), or a combination of a UK-Spain return (for the legs accompanying your son) and a Spain-UK return (for the legs on your own) ? The latter will be more difficult to resolve.

In pursuing your claim(s), although you are understandbly upset and angry, it will be helpful to keep in mind that although it is not your fault your son became ill, it was not BA's fault either. That doesn't excuse rude treatment, or general heartlessness, but BA may be within their rights. And of course they may have their own side of the story to tell...

[Captivep]

MotherinDistress - you've used some very strong words in your post.

Were they really "abusive"?

And what do you mean when you say you were treated like a "criminal"?

And you say BA have cancelled your return flight: do you mean they cancelled the flight, or your booking on it?

[MotherInDistress]

Dear Gibon2,

Many thanks for your response. Particularly point 3. Bearing in mind that since Sunday a.m. I have only slept 5 hours, my thinking is not straight.

I do have travel insurance but they are telling me that I am not covered because it's BA's fault (still in the process of finding out why) and it'll only cover £500, not the €769 paid for me to return or the cost to retrieve my son.

I do have a doctor's certificate containing all necessary details and evidence of an e-mail sent to BA before I missed the flight, advising them of the situation and that there was a 55 minute waiting list on a Spanish high rate charge BA phone number. Also their reply 5 hours after the flight had been missed, advising me to keep on trying.

The first reservation is for my son and I: LHR to MAD 19/7/13 return 4/8/13

The second reservation, fully cancelled by BA because I missed the first leg of the journey is form me: MAD to LHR 22/7/13 (missed due to my son being sick) returning 1/8/13.

BA simply refers me to the T&C whereby they have the right to cancel the flight as "no show", irrespective of the reason due to me having a "cheap" ticket purchased in April 2013. They are not interested whether I tried to sort it out prior to the booking or not.

I am talking to a newspaper to publish the story. I wish to warn all families who believed like a did in the name of BA as a caring airline.

More like "To fly and to charge as much as we possibly can"

[MotherInDistress]

I say that I was treated like a ciminal by BA crew when, simply for crying in the plane and being sick in the bathroom (a combination of worry and lack of sleep) a crew member asked to see my passport "for security reasons", took it away and returned it shortly after.
Another crew member said "I wouldn't have left my son". Maybe she is better off and can afford the €1,500 charged to fly my son and I back to the UK, though I guess being a member of staff they obtain really cheap fares subsidised by... me.
My son is safe in the summer camp until Saturday the 3rd of August. After this date I must have raised the sum required to purchase a ticket to bring him back.
There were several patronising and arrogant comments which I recorded.
I was trembling but afraid to ask them for a blanket.
One thing for sure: I am NEVER flying BA again and will try to share my experience with the general public. Watch out for BA - they are NOT FAMILY FRIENDLY.

[Captivep]

If you book a cheap flight many months before with any airline then they will cancel it of you don't turn up for the first sector. Indeed, had you been able to speak to BA the chances are that they (and indeed any other airline) would have told you it was non-cancellable and non-refundable. The conditions are made very clear when you book.

I have sometimes taken the chance of booking non-refundable flights and then had to miss them; it wasn't the airline's fault that I had taken the risk.

If I understand the situation correctly, you now only need to fly one way to Madrid, in order to pick up the return leg of your first booking. Easyjet are currently charging £170 for a single flight LTN-MAD on 1 August.

[Gibon2]

Captivep has the answer:

Easyjet are currently charging £170 for a single flight LTN-MAD on 1 August.

Book this, go and get your son, and then thrash it out with BA and/or your insurer at your leisure, when you can be cool, calm, collected and patient.

I see now why BA cancelled your booking; Captivep explains it well. But it is interesting that your insurer says it is BA's fault: there should be some useful ammunition there, if they explain why. If they can't explain why, then they should cover the loss, at least up to the maximum of £500.

Much depends of the precise conditions of your ticket. Tickets that are "non-cancellable and non-refundable" may be able to be changed, for a fee. In many cases, even on highly restricted tickets, when a passenger misses an outbound flight through misadventure, he or she is booked onto a later flight for a fee and perhaps also has to pay any difference in airfare, but the ticket (and the return flight!) is not cancelled.

In any case, get your son first, and then tackle all this with a cool head and the time to do a thorough job of it.

[Avionker]

Firstly let me say that as a parent I have some sympathy for you. An ill child is a distressing thing for any parent to deal with, and I'm glad that he is Ok and able to enjoy his summer holiday.

That I'm afraid is where my sympathy ends. You booked a cheap, non-refundable ticket, correct? Then you agreed to the Terms and Conditions associated with that ticket didn't you? You were not on the flight and were recorded as a no-show, hence your return leg is also cancelled. It sounds like BA have acted in accordance with the contract between you and them. You didn't, end of story.

If as you say you were acting in a distressed manner on the flight I think it's within reason that the crew would want to verify your identity against the manifest. Hardly treating you like a criminal, just ensuring the safety and security of all those on-board.

The comment you say the crew member made, "I wouldn't have left my son", I think was inappropriate and unprofessional and is worthy of taking further. Having said that, as a parent I agree with them, but like them it is not my place to judge.

Buy a cheap ticket, get out to Spain on the 1st August and collect your son.

Pursue your claim with your Travel Insurance company, get back as much money as you can. I really cannot understand why they are saying it was BA's fault though, that is intriguing. Possibly they do not fully understand the situation?

As for going to the media to spread your story and tell everyone how horrible BA are, well frankly I think that's pathetic. :ugh::ugh::ugh:

You were the victim of unfortunate circumstances, stop looking for someone to blame.

[MotherInDistress]

Many thanks for your reply. Since yesterday I have received great feedback and extremely useful advice. Very important is the fact that British Airways have no contact in Spain during the weekend apart form a high-charge number with a "55minutes waiting time" and Iberia very clearly said they could not do anything as I had booked directly with BA. This is key because had I been able to contact them (and I certainly tried - evidence available) or had they answered my urgent e-mail prior to the flight, the first leg of the journey would not have shown as "not show" and I would have been able to go back to pick him up.

Secondly, their rudeness, arrogant and patronising behaviour. I had clearly explained my situation "and apologize" at the start of the flight. Why they felt the need to take my details / passport and what have they done with them? They already have all the details for the passenger manifest – so why the extra? Intimidation? Well they certainly did manage that as I was freezing cold in the plane, trembling and too afraid to ask for a blanket. I was being told off by a cabin crew, for something or other on my way to the toilet to be sick when my sight became blurry and I couldn’t hear, I think I apologized went inside the toilet, sat down and fainted – I think; again too afraid to ask for help. True, it is not their fault just my body giving up under so much stress.

Lastly, but most importantly, the most agonizing decision was to leave my son behind, this is where BA cabin crew comment hurt the most and made me feel most distress. But again, I discussed this with the summer camp and agreed that he would achieve a faster recovery in a relaxing atmosphere than not knowing where we would have spent the night or when we would be able to get home. I do not have the credit limit on my credit card to have paid the required euros 1,500 to bring us both back to the UK and we would have had to sleep in the airport. Hardly a recovery recipe for an eleven year old.

Regarding going to the media, well, some companies do not want feedback regarding unacceptable behaviour, too arrogant. There are several very wrong matters in their processes and controls that require immediate attention / correction, in these circumstances, the only solution is to spread the word to the general public so they don’t make the same mistake that I did. My advice to families is: if flying to Spain with children, do not book with BA as they do not have any acceptable representation in Spain during weekends (I cannot comment regarding during the week). Better off flying with a Spanish company or even better, a cheap ticket with Easy jet. Currently they seem to be so…… much cheaper than British Airways and in my experience, better customer service “what you see is what you get”. No such nonsense as“ …To Fly. To Serve. is a promise at the heart of everything we do”. I think not. They serve themselves.
Finally, many thanks for your feedback. Greatly appreciated!!

[Captivep]

Avionker - spot on!

OP - it would help your case if you were a little less melodramatic about the whole thing. Asking for your passport is "intimidation?" That's a little over the top...

And your "agonizing" decision to leave your son? You could have stayed in Spain...

[Avionker]

Can one assume then that you choose not to call the number BA provide? It maybe high charge and it may have had a 55 minute wait time but it was probably cheaper than 768 euros.... If you choose not to try the phone number you cannot really claim to have done everything in your powers to contact them can you? Also how long before the departure time did you first try contacting them?

They already have all the details for the passenger manifest – so why the extra? Intimidation? Well they certainly did manage that as I was freezing cold in the plane, trembling and too afraid to ask for a blanket. I was being told off by a cabin crew, for something or other on my way to the toilet to be sick when my sight became blurry and I couldn’t hear, I think I apologized went inside the toilet, sat down and fainted – I think; again too afraid to ask for help. True, it is not their fault just my body giving up under so much stress.


Given your description of your behaviour and appearance on the flight, due to your stressed condition, the crew may have wrongly suspected alcohol or drug issues. They have a duty of care to all passengers and that includes been wary of individuals who are displaying unusual behaviour and who appear not to be following crew requests and instructions.

Your passport? Checking photo ID against the manifest to make sure it matches perhaps? The details on the manifest are just a name, on the boarding card is only a name. How else can they check that the person on board is the legitimate holder of the boarding card? It should be checked at the gate but it seems reasonable to check again given the circumstances.

As I said already any rude or personal comments from the crew are not acceptable and require addressing. The decision you made regarding your son is yours alone to make, you are his mother.

With hindsight perhaps a night in an airport hotel and a flight home the next day would have been a better option for you, but it's always easier to be wise after the facts.

[Ancient Observer]

As a parent I can sympathise with your problem. As a passenger and fellow customer of BA, I fully agree with the crew taking the precaution of examining your passport as your behaviour was not normal.
You might now be able to explain your behaviour, but what was in your mind then, and what you then did, clearly gave the crew a reason for concern.
As to contacting BA, I agree that it is extremely frustrating.

However, follow the wise advice from others on this thread. Fix the issue first, and then go to war with the Insurance Company first, and BA if necessary, later.
Keep breaking down the issues in to very specific points. Generalised complaints about BA are too frequent on pprune.
Also, ask on flyertalk for advice.

[MotherInDistress]

I am so very glad to be able to report that a human member of BA answered my e-mail to '[email protected]' and is the first BA rep that has been nice to me. She has offered a flight for the 2nd of August, form a different and more difficult airport, but at least I CAN GO BACK TO MY SON!!!! Thank you Ms H.C. from BA!!!!

Now I can sleep (I have slept a total of 8 hours in the last three days) and thus think more logically and not so “melodramatic”. Sorry about that!!

No I couldn’t have stayed in Spain; I had no place to stay, no clothes, no internet or enough credit on the telephone to request assistance.

Yes, I felt intimidated by most of the cabin crew’s behaviour. I was at all times polite but crying and in obviously in distress. If the crew had suspected drugs or alcohol, my behaviours and their behaviour would have been very different. I think they just need training. Also they were arrogant and patronising.

My behaviour in the plane was to move to an empty row in order not to disturb the passenger next to me. When asked by a member of staff (controlling all my moves) why I had moved, I explained: “not to disturb the gentleman next to me. Should I go back?”. I think they were upset that even though I was very distressed, I was polite and obliging at all times and they couldn’t use their powers to restrain no matter the amount of provocation thrown at me(gosh, again being melodramatic… Sorry) I am just so relieved!.

Finally, it’s not that easy abusing the phone when it belongs to people you don’t know who were kind enough to let you use it and you can see that they weren’t that keen for me to hold for 55 minutes. My phone did not have enough credit either. No phone boxes. I tried EVERYTHING!.

Lesson learned:-
1) Do not fly with British Airways as they are not family friendly or have people skills.
2) They do not have representation in Spain (and I imagine in South America either as served mainly by Iberia) .
3) They are arrogant.
4) They are patronizing.
5) They are extremely expensive.

Thank you all!!

[MotherInDistress]

I will very much appreciate any ideas / advice on obtaining a full refund from British Airways re their excessive and unfair charge of 769 euros forced to pay to return home .
Please only positive & helpful comments. Do refrain from posting any negative comments, partifcular from BA staff :=.
Many thanks

[ExXB]

I would write to them setting out the situation clearly and calmly. Don't threaten them with sanctions like never flying with them again or that you're going to see them in court. If you do, you likely will just be ignored - their customer service people don't spend much time with lost customers. Send your letter registered post if you can.

In fact tell them they are your favourite airline and they have disappointed you. You'd like to fly them again etc. etc. Set out exactly what you would like them to do. Refund your extra fare, cover other expenses, etc. Don't make them guess what it would take to satisfy you. Provide copies of any/all receipts.

(If you are looking for BA staff, you'll probably find more of them over at flyer talk(dot)com. But don't expect them to be sympathetic - but you never know.) Sorry I've edited this after rereading your post. There are not too many BA Customer Service people stopping by PPRuNe - if they are they are lurking. You may find some BA crew here but I doubt they would respond to your emotive thread.

Don't forget that BA staff have probably logged their view of their encounters with you into their system. These may be unflattering. So tell the truth and don't enter in conjecture.

Oh, and have you looked at the 'conditions of carriage'? Your contract with BA? It is written in plain English (they were told to do so by the OFT) so it isn't lawyer gobbledygook. You can find it on their website.

Last word of advice: They've got your money, it's up to you to convince them to give it back. Think.

[Captivep]

I had promised myself not to reply to this thread again but:

It's been explained to you, at least twice, that a cheap ticket booked a long way ahead is usually non-changeable and non-refundable. Not just BA - every airline.

You vow never to fly again with BA but you're going to fly with them on 2nd August? I've just looked and the cheapest one way flight with BA on that day is £399, substantially higher than the easyjet flight I suggested. If you hate them so much, why are you giving them over £200 more than you'd have to pay easyjet?

Particularly so when you state that BA cabin crew intimidated you, wanted to control your every movement, treated you like a criminal and were disappointed because they couldn't use their powers to restrain you...

[Hipennine]

Err, did you not have proper travel insurance for you and your son. If so, it should cover the cost of you as an accompanying relative to have stayed in Spain until recovery.

[MotherInDistress]

Thank you ExXB, your response logical and well thought.
Now that I know my son will be OK, I will have a good night rest and will approach the situation tomorrow in a "calm" manner.
Regards

[MotherInDistress]

Dear captivep,
Your latest answer is not prositive or helpful to anyone.

[Avionker]

Out of curiosity have you checked the T and C's of your original booking as ExXB suggested? Had you been able to contact BA were changes allowed on the booking?

Also I'm slightly confused how you managed to book another BA flight to get back to the UK. You say you had no internet access, no credit on your phone and no BA presence at the airport.

Glad to hear that you have now got a flight back to Spain to pick up your son. I take it BA are providing that gratis?

[cockney steve]

@M.I.D. Sorry, any sympathy I felt has evaporated.

You are acting like a spoilt, petulant, selfish and irresponsible child.

Many people couldn't afford to send their child to a Spanish summer-camp for several weeks.

A mature and responsible parent would have made sure they had adequate insurance in place to cover any eventuality that a robust, 11-year old boy,without parental supervision ,in a strange country, is likely to get up to.

What the heck were you thinking of? clearing off to blighty and leaving your precious offspring with a load of strangers?

Like Violet Elizabeth Bott, you worked yourself up into a state of hysteria and then have the temerity to to bad-mouth the staff, having to keep a cabin -full of pax happy when there's a mentally unstable pax. who is irrational and sick, loading the responsibility for her welfare, on top of their regular duties.

You attempt to excuse your initial posts on here by claiming to be over-tired and that is an excuse for your irrational behaviour.

Regarding the phone......OK you had limited credit.....TEXT ! E-Mail!

(there are "internet cafes, wifi hotspots etc. all over the world)

You're bright enough to book your son a holiday abroad, yet unaware that the British Government has EMBASSIES abroad, especially to serve it's citizens. You also didn't stop to consider that the airfare would have paid for a change of clothes and a hotel or guest-house room ,so you could stay with your poor,sick, abandoned child.

Enough with the histrionics. You're big enough to have produced a child 11 years ago, your mental maturity , it seems, has not kept pace.

I'm tempted to ask, "Where is the child's father, in all this ?"

.....but I think you've already answered that.

It's likely I'll be judged as being harsh and this post gets moderated, or the same response as captivep but your behaviour towards even an underperforming legacy-carrier, is totally unreasonable.

Look in the mirror, drama Queen, and ask yourself some tough questions.

[Bongodog1964]

Mother in distress (or drama queen in need of guidance) captivep was correct, you booked "use it or lose it" tickets. If you then don't use any part of them your only redress is via your insurance company. You are picking a fight with the wrong company, its your insurers who aren't telling the truth, if you present a valid medical reason for not flying to them they are legally required to pay out, less any compulsory taxes that BA will refund to you. I've had to go through this procedure twice in recent years, firstly you obtain a cancellation invoice from BA which clearly shows the non refundable proportion of the ticket (nearly all of it) you then present this and the doctors letter to your insurers. They deduct the policy excess and send you the balance. Unfortunately however it all takes about 6 weeks.

[ExXB]

Is like to suggest this thread be locked. It is well off-topic. Most recent questions have been answered.

[TightSlot]

MotherInDistress
Please only positive & helpful comments. Do refrain from posting any negative comments, partifcular from BA staff

Your latest answer is not prositive or helpful to anyone.
Possibly you have misunderstood the nature of PPRuNe and internet forums in general? May I help.

You don't get to post here and then insist that only those answers that agree with and support your position are acceptable: Indeed, the real joy of these forums is discovering that there can be another point of view to your own, and then the realisation that such a point of view is equally valid, and maybe more so.

I'm not going to delete or moderate any of the preceding posts. Based upon the information that you yourself have posted here, I would suggest that you are actually, deep down inside, well aware that your actions and behaviour have been far from exemplary, and that this self-realisation has driven the somewhat hysterical response seen above. People with far more tolerance and nicer dispositions than I have attempted to assist you and offer advice above. Take it.

[MotherInDistress]

I purchased the return ticket from the BA desk at Iberia.
I have not yet checked the T&C but will do so this weekend. I usually book with BA for the values that the airline & staff had. This experience has been a real eye opener.
It's concerning that I am obtaining conflicting info. from BA & Iberia: On Sunday asa I knew I would be missing the flight & couldn't reach BA I phoned Iberia who said they could not access my booking details. BA have now confirmed in writing that Iberia does have access to booking details!?!?
I am also doing further research on additional details that don't quite agree.
Once again thank you to those of you who provide assistance & support. I panicked & the simple advice of "keep calm" was greatly appreciated.

[MotherInDistress]

Many thanks for your advise.
Yes, I confess this is my first time in a forum.
No, do not know the rules but you have highlighted a few.
Yes, I strongly believe BA is not the airline I thought it was. They have lost their values. Their mission statement doesn't agree to the many comments currently available on the web or the feedback that I have received from other victims.
No, I have never been so distressed.
Yes, obtaining both sides of the argument has actually proven very useful.

[MotherInDistress]

Don't tell me - you work for British Airways.

[Captivep]

Just a final gentle suggestion from me:

Perhaps you should now reconsider your opinion of BA. Despite having no legal obligation to do so, and in the opinion of many of us no moral obligation either, they have given you a free flight to Madrid.

This is not the action of a heartless company - quite the opposite. And, frankly, it stands in stark contrast to the openly expressed policies and attitudes of certain other airlines...

Just an edit as I've just seen your response to Steve...

Sadly, I now don't think you'll accept, or even understand, the comments I've just made. Enjoy your victimhood...

[MotherInDistress]

Why do people prefer BA over Easy Jet. Why would you pay more to book with BA? I invite you to comment (if moderator allows - I don't know the rules). My experience has proven that my expectations were unfounded. I'm interested in yours.

[MotherInDistress]

Why have they offered me the free ticket? To avoid bad publicity. Had I managed to speak to a BA rep. or had Iberia managed to "access" the booking details, or had they answered my email on time, I would't be writing in this forum right now.
Saying this, the BA lady that helped me behaved more like a Virgin airlines employee than BA. She was very supportive.

[cockney steve]

@ M.I.D. You really are out of your depth, aren't you? Rush in blindly, don't bother to read the forum rules, do a search, check the basics..... yet you Kick off and defame all and sundry.

Look at my profile....I'm 66, -even wicked, heartless BA would have pensioned me off long ago:O....except I was self-employed from age 30, having had a garage business, fish and chip shop, building maintenance..... so, no, absolutely no connection with BA. (Paxed with BEA and BUA around 1968, but that doesn't count)

Unfortunately, you are incapable of exercising any self-discipline, as evidenced by your claim I purchased the return ticket from the BA desk at Iberia.
I have not yet checked the T&C but will do so this weekend.
SHEESH...so you'll throw another hissy fit if the t's and c's don't match your expectations?
It would appear that BA offer two different sorts of ticket....pay the full whack, they'll bend over backwards to change / re-route / re-schedule. -they have the margin to be able to do this and absorb the cost of the empty seat you didn't use and they couldn't resell.

Then there's the cheapo option , as you've already been told....you buy it at a basic cost and it's yours this isn't Marks and Spencers! It's the street market. just because you decide "at the weekend" that you don't want it after all, TOUGH CHEESE it's yours, you bought it, it wasof merchantable quality....in short, you're abusing their good nature in expecting them to absorb costs that you incurred by your capricious nature.

If you were my daughter, I'd have put you over my knee a long while ago :} re-read the advice that I and others have offered, eat humble pie and make a few apologies. and give profuse thanks to BA for the kindness they've shown you,after your badmouthing.
And yes, I've 3 offspring, 2are IT professionals and one is a PhD in Particle Physics, currently working under contract to the MOD.

No airline connection in the family, OK?
You're damned lucky I wasn't your "customer service advisor" - I'd have refused to carry you and blacklisted you as well, if your behavioural account is to be believed...judging by this thread, it is!

@ Tightslot...you've removed my posts before, thanks for leaving the previous one...yes, I probably am playing the ball and the player on this occasion, but I couldn't let it go unchallenged!

[MotherInDistress]

You are making too many assumptions in your post and many are very, very wrong. Additionally what do you have against single working parents? Please concentrate on the subject & not the person. You've called me spoiled, & many other things. The spanking comment is worrying. I pass the Karma to you.

[TightSlot]

I have received a complaint from the OP to the effect that it is the player and not the ball that is being played. This is probably accurate.

I am reluctant to close the thread, although the OP is beginning to behave progressively more like a Troll with each new post. I'd suggest that we let this thread die a natural death: Given the OP's stated position, there seems little likelihood of a change of heart.

Maybe MumsNet will offer rather more in the way of Tea & Sympathy?

[MotherInDistress]

If your comments are allowed, then I'm in the wrong forum. I find you impertinent & rude to say the least.

[MotherInDistress]

I doubt if I'm going to obtain anything else sensible & since I'm most certainly not into spanking I'll utilize my time more efficiently in the other forum of BA victims to pass the knowledge gained.

[Ancient Observer]

MiD
You really must read the t & c of the original ticket.

I'm a pensionner, and have to read these things. I'm booked on a BA flight in a few days time, and read the t & c. I can change the date, but at a cost. I read what they told me.

I booked my hotel through BA. I could not get it cheaper anywhere else. If I die, my partner will NOT get a refund.

I have also booked BA on the cheapie one that we all suspect you used. Even if my partner had died, BA would be under NO obligation to refund and/or re-route me.

I cannot afford not to read the t & c.

I am, however, fully insured.

As to your behaviour on the plane, you really do not get it, do you? I am no psychiatrist, but your behaviour sounds just like the behaviour of a scared, worried, person, and you might have been sweating with your concern.................That is how terrorists behave, apparently. The crew would have been within their rights to refuse to let you on.

[Avionker]

MiD

I have so far avoided getting personal and/or abusive, and will endeavour to continue in that manner. I will skip over the fact that we all suspect that you had a non-changeable ticket and that therefore, even had you successfully contacted BA, your situation would probably have been unaltered.

Obviously your son falling ill was beyond any-ones control, but I do feel that your situation spiraled rapidly downhill due to poor planning and decision making on your behalf. You said:-

No I couldn’t have stayed in Spain; I had no place to stay, no clothes, no internet or enough credit on the telephone to request assistance.


Delays can happen for a multitude of reasons, and a bit of contingency planning will allow you to deal with the situation in a more relaxed and rational manner. Let me list a few points for your consideration, if I may.

1) You flew to Spain on the 19th and were due to return on the 22nd. You say that another overnight stay after you missed your flight was not an option, as you had no clothes. Personally if I were planning on staying 3 nights in another country I would pack sufficient clothing for 5 days.

2) You had nowhere to stay. I'm sure that the Airport Information desk could have supplied details of nearby hotels. After finding out that a flight was going to cost in excess of 700 euros I would have bolted to an hotel, where I would have had internet access and sorted out a cheaper flight the next day. This would also have meant, that for that night at least, you would have been closer to your son possibly alleviating some of your anxiety. You could also have contacted family/friends back home for support or assistance.

3) Why not buy a local Pay as You Go sim card for your phone? That would have solved the phone credit problems. Personally I have had a contract phone for several years but prior to that I always ensured that I had plenty of credit before leaving home and could top up from overseas with no problems.

I will very much appreciate any ideas / advice on obtaining a full refund from British Airways re their excessive and unfair charge of 769 euros forced to pay to return home .

You had several options open to you, had you only been able to see them. I really do not see how you can claim that BA "forced" you to spend 769 euros. You did not have to fly back that day with them did you?

If you walk up to any airline desk and say "I must fly from A to B today" then standby to get fleeced. Far better to accept a night in an hotel and book a flight on the internet.

Another point I would like you to consider is your claim that BA are not "family friendly". Now bear in mind that when all this was going on you were travelling on your MAD-LHR booking. This booking was for a single adult travelling, not an adult and child.

Again I appreciate that 20/20 hindsight is a wonderful thing. Perhaps, just perhaps, if you read this post you will begin to see that your situation, handled differently could have been a lot less traumatic for you.

I think to blame BA entirely, as you are doing, is extremely unfair and reflects very poorly on you. Particularly in light of the fact that they are flying you to Madrid gratis.

I would like to point out that I do not, and have never, worked for or been affiliated with BA in anyway.

[PPRuNe Pop]

MiD

I think you have stretched the goodwill and understanding of a number of people including a very experienced fellow moderator, a gentleman who works for a major airline. He always tempers his comments and actions but I see that he is considering closing this thread. I think he should if only to show you that you cannot assume that PPRuNe is not available just for your benefit.

You have been given sound advice that you have not heeded. You have been given suggestions that you should have acted upon because together the people on this site KNOW what they are talking about. All you seem to want to do is to 'have it your way' even though your knowledge of the airline industry is meagre to say the least.

So, you bought a ticket that is simply one that is use it or lose it. The best description I know.

Madam, you have used enough time on PPRuNe and unless you can think of another reason why any of us should bother with you any longer I suggest you seek another aviation site to fight your own useless fight, although you seem to have been annoying enough to get unwarranted help. Be thankful.

If my colleague now chooses to shut you out so be it, that is your problem and not his.

Enough is enough as they say!

[TightSlot]

Listen to your Dad!

:)