Nav. lights on during the day?

[FGD135]

Ahem.

Have noticed some pilots intentionally do this.

I struggle to understand why they do it. I suspect they think they are making themselves more visible.

I wonder how much more visible they think they are?

[KRUSTY 34]

Years ago the company I worked for (Bank Runs) had the policy of leaving the Nav light switches on at all times. One theory being, if unexpected poor vis was encountered, then it was one less thing to worry about.

The main reason however,was that after leaving the aircraft for the day, or evening, pilots were encouraged to always look back at the A/C as they walked away. If the batteries were inadvertantly left on (it happened more frequently than you may think), then the nav lights being on would alert the pilot to his/her error.

The company rational was that it was less expensive to replace the odd Nav light globe than to go through the cost of retrieving an aircraft with a flat battery.

[startingout]

Do you mean during the day flying?

[Captain Nomad]

I wonder how much more visible they think they are?

Might make a difference whether or not you have those new fangdangle LED nav lights. They certainly are more visible in the daytime compared to traditional ones!

People do need to be careful though. In some types you won't see your 'three greens' with nav lights on during the day!

As far as the end of day 'last check' for battery on - the beacon would work better in most cases and is the preferred procedure for some operators. It would probably get your attention better being a flashing light.

[The Green Goblin]

Depends on the type you are flying.

On something like a Metro, you had a switch which you could select NAV lights (ground operations, night) and Nav and strobe (all operations once entering a runway).

So you had no choice. Once you turned the strobe lights on, the NAV lights were selected by default.

Personally I think if an operator (or individual) is worried about replacing a few globes, they can stick it where the sun don't shine. I'll have everything turned on whatever time of day especially in CTAFs. Those strobes or NAV lights could be the difference between some one seeing you from above or not on decent. We all know what happened when a 727 mowed down a 172 in the US that time.......

[training wheels]

I know this is going to sound simplistic and naive, but I was told it was left on when on the ground so that ground crew knew the aircraft was still 'live' (as if the sound of the APU wouldn't have told them that .. lol )

[dogcharlietree]

I know this is going to sound simplistic and naive, but I was told it was left on when on the ground so that ground crew knew the aircraft was still 'live' (as if the sound of the APU wouldn't have told them that .. lol )

I encouraged pilots to put them on for exactly that reason the aircraft was still 'live' and then people approaching knew that a pilot was on board and possibly about to start. I don't know about todays regs, but years ago, not all aircraft had rotating beacons, and how many lightie pilots are brave enough to yell out "stand clear" or similar.

[compressor stall]

I struggle to understand why they do it.

CAR 196 in isolation perhaps?

[Capt Claret]

When I started multi-crew ops some 20 years ago on the Nord, Nav lights were on whenever electrical power was on, and rotating beacon on whenever the prop was going to spin.

[Centaurus]

We all know what happened when a 727 mowed down a 172 in the US that time.......
t Reply

Having the navigation lights on for collision avoidance in daytime is as useless as pilots wearing high viz vests in the cockpit so other aircraft can see them. :mad:

[Capt Fathom]

FGD135
I struggle to understand why they do it
Surely there are more important things to struggle with!

[Bankstown Boy]

Mostly amused by this post. I am the one who pays for my bulbs if they go (about $5) and I would never consider NOT turning them on. It may not really increase visibility but why wouldn't you?

Aviation, in my mind, is about maximizing safety opportunities; not trying to second guess the potential value-add of a marginal addition to safety.

Looking around the cockpit I see a lot of other things that could be turned off too:
- that second magneto (only really needed if the first fails),
- the artificial horizon (only needed at night and in clound, why wear down the gyros, or electrons,
- the HSI, I've gotta itty magnetic compass - that'll do me
- the GPS (unless I'm direct to), I'm even required to navigate within tolerance of the old aids, so who needs it,
- the cockpit lights - after all I'm carrying a torch,


Mmmm ... Safety first, who's it gonna hurt?

[VH-XXX]

The "live" aircraft idea is a very good one. Countless time I've approached an aircraft on foot from behind or the side and seen the Nav lights and realised it was "live" and given it a wide berth.

[Hasselhof]

Stallie has it in one. It's because CAR196 explicitly says that you have to. Especially since 1A is held to strict liability.

[maverick22]

Go back one to CAR 195 though and it says that CAR 196 only applies at night and conditions of poor visibility. I seem to recall though several years ago there was a campaign launched by airservices for turning all lights on during the day in the terminal area to increase visibility

[Ejector]

The last 3 operators I have flown with on 3 different continents including oz all had the same policy.

1. Nav lights on means there is live power going to the systems, be it from batt, APU or external. Next time you go get on a burner take a look. Reasoning, it is a warning to all, be it engineers, catering, refueling that there is live power.

2. Beacon right before starting engines

3.Strobes when entering the active.

4. Taxi or Landing lights ON On the roll to Top of Climb or through 10,000.

5. and a variation of either taxi light or landing lights on at top of decent or below 10,000' .

Simple really.

[Slasher]

1. Nav lights on means there is live power going to the systems, be it from batt, APU or external...

Yes during the day. I don't quite agree with it - I've operated
airline jets in the past when no such practice existed and no
one got electrickeried dead. I think some smart arse may've
thought it up somewhere as a good way to avoid shouting the
bar and the excuse spread.

Only time I agree with the navs on during the day is when in
extremely limited vis, like fog, whereby the ice-cream trucks
have a good reference where your wingtips are and can avoid
bashing into them.

[Worrals in the wilds]

The "live" aircraft idea is a very good one. Countless time I've approached an aircraft on foot from behind or the side and seen the Nav lights and realised it was "live" and given it a wide berth.

I agree, particularly on busy ramps. Unfortunately, due to casualization the training experience levels and situational awareness of ramp rats is decreasing daily :(. I think the more fairy lights, beacons, and big light up signs saying 'This Is An Aircraft, Stupid' the better. Anything that minimises the risk of Wing Dings and other 'amusing' ramp incidents (where amusing is defined as someone else's ramp and/or someone else's aircraft:}) is a good thing.

I know it's an attitude that can lead to a culture where people have to hi viz their own shoes so they don't trip over them, but if it's not a big hassle I think they're a useful added precaution.

[compressor stall]

I'm no lawyer, but it strikes me as a really really bad piece of regulation to have one reg saying to turn your navlights on at all times, then another separate reg saying that that other reg only applies at certain times.

Why isn't car 196 listed as a subreg (eg CAR195(1a))?? :ugh:

Aviation regulation in Australia is hardly the regulator's and their legal teams' finest hour so maybe I shouldn't expect too much I guess..!

[MD83FO]

I believe for FAA transport category, position lights must be on at all times.

[FerrypilotDK]

I always do the nav lights for "occupied, power in systems and anything might be coming" signal BUT, on this aircraft, there is no power to the nav lights from the battery, so they come on after the APU.

Then the beacon for start, taxi for impending movement ( and off again if holding back for another aircraft), strobes on entering runway, landing lights when cleared for take-off etc. I did have a Russian pilot I was flying with contest this procedure, as it wasn't in the check list............

:{

[PLovett]

Was That For Us? - FAA Safety Video - YouTube

Longish video but part of it explains the FAA position on the use of lights and what their significance for other pilots.