How many of the Falklands War Argentinian ejectees were rescued? [Archive]

ZH875

15th Aug 2011, 18:50

Why crass and why insensitive?

As a young guy on the ground in 82 I agree with the statement...too many of my mates suffered at their hands.

I don't suppose you have a Japanese TV set or a German car at home, or maybe some German tools, or a Japanese microwave etc

As a young guy half on the ground in '82. I disagree with the statement.

The politicians are the ones to blame, not the members of the forces.

Biggus

15th Aug 2011, 18:51

So how long do you continue to hold a grudge for?

The Germans for WW1 and 2.

The French for everything from Waterloo to the Battle of Hastings

The Americans for the War of Independence

The Russians for the Crimean war.

The South Africans for the Boer War.

etc,

etc,

It's a very long list!

timex

15th Aug 2011, 19:02

Only those things that directly affected me, perhaps I was being harsh as I only lost 6 or so friends there.

Biggus

15th Aug 2011, 19:13

timex,

Sorry for you loss. How you deal with it is your issue. If you want to blame the Argentinians indefinately then that is your choice, but not one we all have to follow.

Considering there were twice as many Argentinian losses as British in the Falklands War, perhaps you might like to consider how many people in Argentina might feel about the British today if they adopted your approach - and their forces were largely conscripts, not volunteers.....

timex

15th Aug 2011, 19:18

Thanks Biggus, guess we'll leave it there.

rh200

15th Aug 2011, 23:18

The French for everything from Waterloo to the Battle of Hastings

With the French that tends towards infinity:p, in fact it might even end up being genetic:)

MAINJAFAD

15th Aug 2011, 23:59

Try the book: "Falklands - The Air War". ISBN 090633905 7.

This will give you every last crumb of information about the conflict.

Your question does not say if you mean rescued by the Brits or the Argies but this book reveals all.

479 pages of absolutely first rate research.

I would concur, though it is quite a rare book, and there are still the odd unknown (unless they have found the wreck of that Pucara that crashed after getting the only Argie air to air on a Scout AH1).

Off the top of my head (not having the book to hand), only 4 Argie aircrew who actually managed to escape from their aircraft and land alive failed to be rescued. The 2 man crew of the first Canberra to be shot down on 1st May managed to eject and were lost at sea to the north of Pebble Island (The patrol vessel sent to search for them ended up eating a couple of Sea Suka's from the lynx off one of the Type 42's). The other two crew were the pilots of 2 Skyhawks, one shot down by a Sidewinder, who broke both of his legs in the ejection and was found dead on the ground on the west coast of West Falkland wrapped in his parachute long after the war finished. The other was shot down by a Sea Dart launched by HMS Coventry, and his body was found in his dinghy washed up on a beach on the north of West Falkland again well after the war finished.

500N

16th Aug 2011, 00:18

4 of them listed on Amazon.com.

MAINJAFAD

16th Aug 2011, 00:49

Some of the used ones are going cheap and well worth the postage from the US, the two unused ones are worth 5 times what the book cost in 1986. The book has only been reprinted once as far as I am aware and that was the year after first release.

PICKS135

16th Aug 2011, 13:31

Strange we arent allowed to hold a grudge about 1982, but WW2

Lancaster veteran who saw off Nazis loses battle to stop street being named after German town | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2025365/Lancaster-veteran-saw-Nazis-loses-battle-stop-street-named-German-town.html)

Biggus

16th Aug 2011, 14:05

I personally didn't say you can't hold a grudge over 1982, what you do is a entirely a matter of personal choice.

I tried to point out that holding a grudge over 1982 was short sighted, counter productive, and ultimately self defeating.......

Your choice!

Bob Viking

16th Aug 2011, 14:14

I have to say that I find it a little odd that some people should take such exception to a guy bearing a grudge as mentioned previously on this thread. The gentlemen who posted earlier has every right to bear a grudge against whoever he chooses. He was there and we weren't. We have no idea what he went through and so cannot possibly understand his feelings. Just because we live in such PC times I don't think we should be afraid to express our feelings.
As a further example, Charles Hazlitt Upham (double VC winner from WW2) was said to hate the Germans so much that he refused to allow anything German on his farm until the day he died. I wonder if people would have been so quick to question his morals.
I shall now climb down from my lofty saddle and I invite other members of the forum to do likewise.
BV:)

Union Jack

16th Aug 2011, 16:13

As a further example, Charles Hazlitt Upham (double VC winner from WW2) was said to hate the Germans so much that he refused to allow anything German on his farm until the day he died.

Interesting - I was present at a social gathering, attended by a wide range of NATO senior officers, when another WWII VC now long gone (but who is still better not identified) created an enormous furore by very "brusquely" refusing to be introduced to the senior German officer present, who had in fact specifically asked to meet him.

On a lighter note, many years ago a colleague, whose father had lost an arm on D-Day + 1, and had similar views to Upham VC, had to tell his father that his new company car, a VW Passat estate, was in fact a Volvo - at which point father said "Damn good cars these Volvos"! And, yes, I do know about Major Ivan Hirst's role in the post war rebirth of VW.

Jack

ex-fast-jets

16th Aug 2011, 16:40

Late summer 82 I was in a restaurant with friends, and ordered a bottle of Argentinian Red.

Friends looked at me in amazement, and questioned why I was prepared to drink Argentinian wine.

Because this is a good wine, I said.

And it was.

Why blame the ordinary folk of a country which was the enemy?

It's usually politicians, dictators.............or bankers............who cause the problems!!

And they still do!

ghostnav

17th Aug 2011, 05:02

But its in the Daily Mail - what do you expect? Its almost as anti European as the Daily Express! Sad that the population of the UK forget where their "roots" really come from. I even read once that Anglo-Saxon meant you were American! Education like that makes you weep.

BEagle

17th Aug 2011, 07:40

On learning that he'd just flown over from Lincoln, an American....'lady' once asked a Vulcan navigator in an Omaha bar "Gee - Lincoln. Do you think they named it after our president?"

Ah, bless.....:rolleyes:

(Not sure whether he DCO'd later though....:E)

JEM60

17th Aug 2011, 08:35

I, like I am sure many others, feel sorry for the loss of all personnel, on both sides in war.These dead soldiers, from whatever side, were simply obeying orders. Grudges are personal things, but life is too short............

Epiphany

17th Aug 2011, 15:07

I would concur, though it is quite a rare book, and there are still the odd unknown (unless they have found the wreck of that Pucara that crashed after getting the only Argie air to air on a Scout AH1).

Yes. It was found in August 1986 in the Blue Mountains on East Falkland. The body of the pilot - a young Navy Lt. was still strapped into the seat. Looked as if he was attempting to cross over a ridge line and didn't quite make it. The camouflage on the Pucara matched the terrain perfectly which was why it wasn't seen for some years. Some eagle-eyed Chinook crew spotted a shred of orange cloth which turned out to be the remnants of the dinghy and an AAC Gazelle crew managed to land and confirm the find.

The body was offered to the Argentinian government for burial but for some obscure reason they refused to have it returned. The family of the pilot came to the Argentinian cemetery on East Falkland where he was laid to rest in a moving ceremony with full military honours.

It was either this Pucara or one shot down by an SAS patrol that had earlier shot down a 3 Cdo Bde Scout which had been on it's way to casevac 2 Para casualties from Goose Green. Of the crew Lt Richard Nunn was killed and the Airgunner, Cpl Bill Belcher was severely wounded.

17th Aug 2011, 15:34

The body was offered to the Argentinian government for burial but for some obscure reason they refused to have it returned That's because the Argentinian government would claim that the pilot was on home territory in the Islas Malvinas. To repatriate him would suggest differently. With Argentinian souls in the ground, then their claim to ownership of the islands is thus enhanced.

Navaleye

17th Aug 2011, 17:30

There were many at the time who felt that burial at sea for the enemy dead would have been more appropriate and more cost effective.

MAINJAFAD

17th Aug 2011, 17:53

Yes. It was found in August 1986 in the Blue Mountains on East Falkland. The body of the pilot - a young Navy Lt. was still strapped into the seat. Looked as if he was attempting to cross over a ridge line and didn't quite make it. The camouflage on the Pucara matched the terrain perfectly which was why it wasn't seen for some years. Some eagle-eyed Chinook crew spotted a shred of orange cloth which turned out to be the remnants of the dinghy and an AAC Gazelle crew managed to land and confirm the find.

The body was offered to the Argentinian government for burial but for some obscure reason they refused to have it returned. The family of the pilot came to the Argentinian cemetery on East Falkland where he was laid to rest in a moving ceremony with full military honours.

It was either this Pucara or one shot down by an SAS patrol that had earlier shot down a 3 Cdo Bde Scout which had been on it's way to casevac 2 Para casualties from Goose Green. Of the crew Lt Richard Nunn was killed and the Airgunner, Cpl Bill Belcher was severely wounded.

Thanks for that Epiphany:ok:

If memory serves. the Argies lost 3 aircraft during the Battle of Goose Green and Darwin, a Pucara was shot down by small arms fire from 2 Para (pilot didn't eject and was killed), a Navy MB326 was taken down by a Blowpipe SAM fired by bootneck of the 3 Cdo Bde AD Troop (again the pilot did not eject and was killed). The third aircraft was another Pucara which was the one that shot down Lt Nunn and Cpl Belcher and didn't get back to Stanley after he killed the Scout. It was reckoned to have hit high ground in bad weather at the time the book above was written.

The SAS Pucara kill was with a Stinger on 21 May over the Sussex Mountains and the pilot managed to eject and walk back to Argie lines.

cosmiccomet

18th Aug 2011, 00:13

That "Navy Lt" in fact was the Argentine Air Force First Lieutenant (Post Mortem) Miguel Gimenez.

He did in fact the first and only air to air shot down for the Argentine side against a British Scout.

Unfortunate, he crashed soon after the attack but his wingman could fly back to Puerto Argentino.

The position about the remains of our soldiers is to keep them in Malvinas because we consider those islands as part of our territory.

I don't ask to the Commonwealth forum members to understand the Argentine position.

jamesdevice

18th Aug 2011, 00:40

a report from the USA at the time. Puts a slightly different slant on things Two Argentines visit Falklands for funeral of pilot killed in war 10/04/1986 | Archives | Chron.com - Houston Chronicle (http://www.chron.com/CDA/archives/archive.mpl/1986_270536/two-argentines-visit-falklands-for-funeral-of-pilo.html)

cosmiccomet

18th Aug 2011, 02:35

If you are interested about the position of the families of Argentine dead soldiers during the war you can also search for First
Lieutenant Jorge Casco or Captain Casado or Mayor Garcia.

In those cases their remains were identified long after the war end because some of the British Royal Crown followers like to keep Dead soldiers remains inside closets in Malvinas.

After those remains were identified in Argentina, the families of Casco and Casado choose to buried in Malvinas.
The Garcia's family choose to buried in Cordoba and nobody pressed over them about their desires.

500N

18th Aug 2011, 02:40

Politicians send the men to war but then won't let the families bring the remains home. A pretty sad state of affairs from any perspective. I think the British did the right and decent thing in helping out. Just my HO.

Epiphany

18th Aug 2011, 06:10

Thanks Mainjafad. Bill Belcher is a friend of mine and I visited him in Wroughton hospital on his return to UK so he gave me a full brief of the attack by the Pucara. Little did I realise that 4 years later I would land a Gazelle next to a Pucara wreck on a hill side in East Falkland and have no idea that it was this very same aircraft.

trex450

18th Aug 2011, 07:44

Sadly the Argentine government refused to have the bodies come home post war and have simply used them politically and therefore with total disrespect ever since.

As far as grudges go, I won't buy Argie wine, pears etc from Tesco. Simple reason being that Argentina is currently being as economically aggressive as possible towards the Islands without actually invading, it is about time they grew up! Not much chance of that though.

Clockwork Mouse

18th Aug 2011, 09:31

Cosmiccomet

I, and many other Commonwealth forum members, do understand the Argentine position perfectly. However, we do not agree with it.

We value people, their lives and their wishes above the land they live in. The Argentine puts a greater value on land. Our values therefore differ fundamentally. Despite that I admire the Argentine people and like very much those I have met. My favourite wine also happens to come from Argentina!

I hope we don't have to go to war again because of that difference in values, but I for one am prepared to if necessary.

nazca_steve

28th Feb 2014, 18:40

One more case worth mentioning is Canberra pilot Capitan (at the time) Roberto Pastran, who was shot down with his nav on the night of 13th June by a Sea Dart from HMS Cardiff. The aircraft in question, B-108, came down south of Whale Point (south of Stanley). Pastran managed to eject after a spiralling descent from approx. 40,000 ft. His nav, Fernando Casado (mentioned earlier by CosmicComet) was unable to eject however.

Pastran landed in the sea south of Whale Point and managed to get to shore. He walked a distance north towards Bluff Cove before he signalled a passing Wessex and was captured. Wreckage of B-108 still washes in and out of the shoreline around Whale Point to this day. Several artifacts from the crew were also collected by a local a year or so after the war.

Roberto Pastran's ejection and subsequent survival should not be taken lightly, no matter what your political leanings. Explosive decompression at 40,000 ft, the trauma of leaving his best friend behind, ejection (never pleasant) and immersion into the freezing south Atlantic, inflation of his dinghy, making it to shore and then walking with the intention of making it back to his lines is an impressive piece of human endurance.

Steve

ShotOne

1st Mar 2014, 08:41

Cosmicomet that's a serious and strange, not to say bizarre, charge to make. To what possible end would Crown personnel do this? It is a matter of record that the remains of Argentine dead were always treated with respect.

While most Britons revile the actions of your government in 1982 (as do many Argentineans) there is absolutely no general enmity or bad feeling against your country.

If you're concerned about respect for the dead, what happened to the corpses of the thousands of Argentinans who were horribly tortured to death by that government? Reportedly many were simply heaved from the back of military aircraft into the South Atlantic!

Edmund Spencer

1st Mar 2014, 09:25

At least one of the pilots Dave Morgan shot down on 8 June ejected. I flew very close to him in his parachute a second or two later.
I don't think he survived or that his body was ever recovered.
ES

Navaleye

1st Mar 2014, 10:14

If I can help. Most ejections from Daggers and Mirages were successful thanks to their Martin Baker seats. Sadly this was not the case with the Skyhawks as the Escapac seat aka "Humane Killer" did just that most of the time. I do have the reference material to give you an answer if it is that important.

NutLoose

1st Mar 2014, 10:24

There was an article in one of the magazines a while back that related to some of the Argentinian ejections, the Argentines despatched a smaller ship to rescue them but were engaged by Lynx if my memory serves me correct, so sadly they were lost.

Wander00

1st Mar 2014, 12:17

Out of interest, what was the problem with the Skyhawk seat, and did that apply also to US operated aircraft. IST some suspicion as to whether the Folland seat in the Gnat would get one out OK - something about seat pans breaking up

Navaleye

1st Mar 2014, 13:04

I've lost track of this thread but someone asked about a vessel sent to rescue downed aircrew. It was an ex American ocean going tug called the Garrachuga, looking for crew members of the Canberra shot down by 801. It was encountered by an 846 Sqn Sea King which it promptly shot at. Sea Skua armed Lynx from Coventry and Glasgow were called in to attack and scored two hits. One hitting a lifeboat, the other hitting the bridge killing the Captain and the duty watch. It eventually made home 3 days later.

NutLoose

1st Mar 2014, 13:14

That's the one, the Canberra crew were then lost.

Navaleye

1st Mar 2014, 13:19

Yes sadly they were not recovered.

langleybaston

1st Mar 2014, 14:25

you have to remember that we all have to pretend to be fluffy bunny huggers now.

Damn! I got that wrong, I've been trying to bugger honey!

Heathrow Harry

1st Mar 2014, 15:12

Cosmiccomet has a point tho

In general and until very recently we buried our dead where they died - there are CWGC cemeteries across the world

These days we don't think it entitles us to a claim on those territories but in a lot of cases that was so at the time they died

Personally I think it was a tragedy that anyone died in the Falklands War

Marcantilan

1st Mar 2014, 18:53

@Shotone: If I remember correctly, a couple of bones from the body of Captain Casado were "discovered" inside a locker on the Capital´s Police Station on 2008.

Maybe Cosmiccomet is pointing to that incident.

@Navaleye: The ship was the Sobral, not the Gurruchaga.

Here is the ship entering port. Note the damage in the bridge.

http://sp5.fotolog.com/photo/53/46/45/malvianas/1249391598056_f.jpg

Regards!

Courtney Mil

1st Mar 2014, 20:57

@Shotone: If I remember correctly, a couple of bones from the body of Captain Casado were "discovered" inside a locker on the Capital´s Police Station on 2008.

Which capital? If you're trying to have a go at the Brits for failing to rescue every one of the Argentinian ejectees whilst liberating the islands your government invaded then you'll have to do better than that. You only have to visit some of the graveyards created and maintained by us in the Falklands to see the level of respect afforded to Argentinian servicemen who lost their lives attempting to take and hold the islands by use of violent force.

If your meaning was otherwise, then carry on.

P.S. Note the damage to the ship.

http://royalnavymemories.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/2009/12/HMS-Sheffield-001.jpg

Marcantilan

1st Mar 2014, 21:39

Sorry, I am not trying to mix politics in here, just trying to understand what cosmiccomet commented.

My "argument" is just an observation to other forum member. I am not claiming anything, and I am far from attacking anyone.

nazca_steve

4th Mar 2014, 00:13

The bone (I think singular in this case) was found a few years after the war as I heard it and ended up in the Stanley police station. As pointed out, this was discovered, returned to the family, DNA tested with Capt. Casado's brother and buried with honours. While I cannot get into details here, that is not all that washed up, and as I said, wreckage still comes in and out. But the discovery, or lack of declaration and identification is a moot point now as the right thing has been done.

Staying on the topic of ejections, what I am most interested in is whether Capt. Casado might have actually been able to eject at the last minute after all. There is some evidence as I say that could indicate he did, however without a lot more investigation, I cannot say for sure. Whatever the case, his trusty old Martin Baker appears to have been damaged after the Sea Dart hit, preventing him from ejecting with Capt. Pastran as they went down.

The dispatching of the Alfarez Sobral is also an interesting topic...assuming the Lynx engagement did not happen, the chances of locating the crew of B-110, let alone if they were still alive was slim to none in reality. Assuming they got their dinghies inflated, you'd have to look at wave conditions in that area, and what projected survival after immersion, even with an immersion suit would have been. I'd be interested to hear other thoughts on this.

bcgallacher

4th Mar 2014, 02:14

Some years ago I was in a small military museum,in Tigre province I think. The bridge of the ship that was hit by the Sea Skua was on display which I thought was a bit macabre. The missile is not very large but it really made a hell of a mess. There were long cracks and splits made in what looked like half inch plate.Judging by the structural damage anyone on the bridge would have been turned into the proverbial red mist. Most impressive - those who saw it arrive back in port would have been really impressed.

nazca_steve

4th Mar 2014, 15:48

Indeed. What's tragic about it is that it was a rescue mission and they made the choice to fire on the Lynx, thus inciting their wrath. It turned the loss of two aircrew into the loss of several more sailors and aborted the rescue attempt - double failure.

Then again, not being there at the time, it is really beyond me to judge the actions of the crew...just feels that way.

pontifex

5th Mar 2014, 10:01

Wander00

The Gnat seat worked just fine! Let me tell you.

Wander00

5th Mar 2014, 12:09

Pontifex - you sound like a "satisfied customer" -absolutely delighted. However, ISTR there was always an element of concern about it, but a long time ago now.

Knucklehead

5th Mar 2014, 19:21

Wander00. Are you sure that you are not confusing the Folland/Saab seat with the MB 2h/3h which was prone to seat pan collapse? Over 3 years at Valley including a stint as SFSO I never came across a case of Gnat seat pan problems. In fact with its comfortable rigid fibreglass seat cushion? allied to a large smooth accelerating gun cartridge, back injuries were rare and overall seat performance was most impressive. We were told not to
eject using the bottom handle as we would be going through the canopy (no MDC then). One QFI did as a last resort at extremely low altitude and the canopy breakers worked perfectly. All he sustained were a couple of rips in his suit leg map pockets.

My apologies for going off thread.

Wander00

5th Mar 2014, 19:36

I do remember the glass fibre seats that were trialled, in the back in one aircraft and in the front of another. ISTR the straps crossed in such a way that one of the straps could press on a sciatic nerve. Hence if a pit limped away from the aircraft it was probable that it was a trial seat. I think it all got satisfactorily resolved. I do recall that instead of firing handle pins, there was a simple lever behind the head - if you could feel it in your head/neck, seat was not live. I am glad that the seat was in fact more reliable than my unreliable memory recalls! loved flying the aeroplane thought - still makes me grin nearly 50 years on.

Helmut Mann

8th Mar 2014, 19:46

I happened quite coincidentally to have viewed a 50min program only just last week on the "Mysteries of the Falklands Is war" and saw the footage shown in this link:

Argentine A4 Skyhawks attacking HMS Antelope during the Falklands War : CombatFootage (http://www.reddit.com/r/CombatFootage/comments/1oeho4/argentine_a4_skyhawks_attacking_hms_antelope/)

For me, the juxtaposition of the enemy jet activity in the back ground with, was it the QE2?, in the foreground, is something quite surreal.

While there's been no end of combat footage freely available these days including 'live' loss of aircraft especially WWII, there is something about the destruction of the Argentine Air Force A-4 at about the 1:00 min mark of this footage that left me utterly stunned.

As a pilot, to see the aircraft go from free controlled flight to oblivion in two frames was a shocking indication of reality, regardless of the nationality. I am sorry the pilot was not left in a position to be recovered.