Rioting E Petition

[The Old Fat One]

Mods may I request your indulgence of a non aviation related matter that affects us all in the UK. I'm sure many UK based ppruners will want to sign this e petition

epetitions.direct.gov.uk

Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits. - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337)
epetitions.direct.gov.uk Any persons convicted of criminal acts during the current London riots should have all financial benefits removed. No tax payer should have to contribute to those who have destroyed property, stolen from their community and shown a disregard for the country that provides for them.

sorry the link does not go straight to it, but if you go to epetitions and search under riot it pops straight up.

Maybe someone will post the direct link.

[BOAC]

Voted for it but it has zero chance as the 'Human Rights' fluffies will kill that. You just CANNOT punish these poor people like that.:ugh:

[Laarbruch72]

You can sign as many e-petitions as you please, they're as much use as a chocolate fireguard.

They're purely there to make you feel better... once everybody has electronically signed and registered their electronic rage, it it just goes straight into the electronic bin along with all the other e-petitions.

[howiehowie93]

I beg to differ - the "Bring Back the Death Penalty" e-Petition is being debated soon.

Or maybe it wont now!

H

[The Old Fat One]

I beg to differ too.

Anything that lets the governement know that their response so far has been found wanting, is worthwhile.

Anything that lets the opposition know that the common man and woman reject any argument that these acts of wanton criminality have got anything to do with economic circumstance is, again, worthwhile.

It's called democracy...the right to have a voice. That's what our armed forces fight for.

Also democracy, the rise in votes for ultra right wing parties, that will part of the backlash against these mindless morons.

[tonker]

What we want is quite irrelevant to the political class. Will we get the referendum on Europe we were promised? Never

[I'm Off!]

If you're going to start to petition government, at least make sure it is spelt correctly...

[barnstormer1968]

Although I believe that e petitions are usually a complete waste of time, the government may actually like this one, as it could show them in a strong and aggressive stance.

Of course, It will not make any difference to any convicted rioters though!

Most are too young to claim benefits
Many are still at school
Many will not be the main benefit claimant in their household

Some will be claiming benefit, but if this is removed they will simply claim subsistence, which is nearly the same rate........But the associated added admin costs will then cost the UK taxpayer more!

[sisemen]

Sorry if you're experiencing problems accessing e-petitons. There is currently a much higher level of demand than we expected.

Obviously a bit of a demand!

[Pontius Navigator]

How about setting up a school? Anyone who can pass the entrance exam is spared attendance. Anyone else qualified will remain in school until they pass the exams and thus become exempt.

Apart from the 3Rs school would include social responsibility and skills such as building and carpentry. Electrical training would not be required.

I would site such school in somewhere nice like North Rona, Sulga Seigr or St Kilda.:}

[pr00ne]

What is it with some of you? First it was "the blacks" now it's the "unemployed." Put your prejudices to one side and realise that this is a hugely complex issue.

The first person up in front of Highbury magistrates for looting and affray this morning was a 31 year old school teacher.

[cazatou]

pr00ne

If that School teacher is found "guilty" it might explain where some of the younger "accused" got their ideas from!!

[Shack37]

If you're going to start to petition government, at least make sure it is spelt correctly...


Might be an idea to change "Loose" to " Lose" in the title.


Of course you are both correct. We mustn't suggest possible solutions to a minor problem, businesses, dwellings and lives being destroyed by thugs, murderers and thieves, using incorrect grammar and punctuation, must we??
I apologise for any and all grammatical, spelling and punctuation errors.

[sabredog]

Shack37,please check your PMs.

[Roadster280]

The first person up in front of Highbury magistrates for looting and affray this morning was a 31 year old school teacher.

Was he black?

[Shack37]

Shack37,please check your PMs


Sabredog, done and replied:ok:

[Two's in]

Brings to mind the old joke about the schoolboy science experiment where he pulls the legs off a spider one at a time and shouts "jump" to see how high the spider will jump. After he pulls the final leg off and shouts "jump", the spider fails to move. The boy's scientific conclusion was that 'after you pull all the legs off a spider, it goes deaf".

Or in this case "after removing welfare benefits from rioters, they fail to riot'.

[Really annoyed]

Was he black?

http://i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2011/08/10/article-2024396-0D60D26000000578-370_308x185.jpg

Alexis Bailey, you are a scumbag who deserves to go to Jail.

[fantom]

May we introduce gassing, or am I a bit too R wing?

[The Old Fat One]

First, apologies for the poor spelling...bit rattled when I was typing it as I had just watched the store where my mum used to take me as a kid trashed by a gang of teenagers...note not black or poor. Just kids who no longer understand discipline, consequence or responsibility. Pidgeons roosting IMHO.

Pr00ne...too many people trying to over complicate this. It's crime QED.

As to the petition...it is now on the BBC news so I guess it is also now on the radar of those who want our votes. I note also Salford have suggested slinging out occupants of their council houses if they have been involved in trashing their own neighbourhood. Bravo Zulu.

Best of all the formidable lady who got in the face of Boris, wanting to know why we can't discipline children anymore. Madam, you were speaking for the silent majority.

[RedhillPhil]

What is it with some of you? First it was "the blacks" now it's the "unemployed." Put your prejudices to one side and realise that this is a hugely complex issue.

The first person up in front of Highbury magistrates for looting and affray this morning was a 31 year old school teacher.

One of the popular professions for members of the Socialist Worker's party is teaching. The Jesuits used to say, "give me a boy of four and he'll be a Catholic for life". The S.W.P. works to the same principle.

[Chicken Leg]

What is it with some of you? First it was "the blacks" now it's the "unemployed." Put your prejudices to one side and realise that this is a hugely complex issue.

The first person up in front of Highbury magistrates for looting and affray this morning was a 31 year old school teacher

What a load of *&%&%. Who cares if they're black, white, employed or other. They're common thugs, thieves and lazy good for nothing scum, who believe the world owes them a living and people like you who appease them are the part of the problem.

These animals trash their own back yard in some sort of protest that none of them can even articulate. Next, they'll be complaining that there are no facilities or business and work opportunities in their areas, without quite realising the irony of their words.

Sometimes, the actions of certain overseas law enforcers don't seem so bad.

[6f1]

I bet all these rioters are labour voters.

[baffman]

I bet all these rioters are labour voters. A somewhat rash bet if you ask me. I suspect they can't ALL be 31 yr old teachers.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I bet all these rioters are labour voters.

Sadly I suspect a huge swathe of them are simply not inclined towards that particular notion of citizenship.

[Chicken Leg]

pr00ne,

I see you're playing the race card to its maximum on the JB thread too.

Shame on you.

[Melchett01]

Sometimes, the actions of certain overseas law enforcers don't seem so bad.

Or even some of our own:

http://http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2024485/UK-RIOTS-2011-Manchester-police-shown-YouTube-video-chasing-gang.html

I'm sure there will be plenty of apologists and amateur social workers choking on their cous-cous at that, but frankly, I think that the silent majority would have preferred to have seen such active policing from day 1.

[PTT]

Any persons convicted of criminal acts during the current London riots should have all financial benefits removed. No tax payer should have to contribute to those who have destroyed property, stolen from their community and shown a disregard for the country that provides for them.Seriously poorly thought through.
1. If they are convicted they go to jail, where the taxpayer pays for them.
2. If you don't provide them with the basic means to survive then you FORCE them into a life of crime, with two possible consequences:a. They keep going to jail and the taxpayer keeps paying for them.
b. In the course of carrying out their crimes (which we have forced them to carry out in order to survive) they cause injury to, or damage to the property of, an innocent citizen. During said event the citizen themselves may become a criminal in the eyes of the law through potentially excessive self defence.The two are not mutually exclusive.

Rioting is a symptom, not the problem.

[Chicken Leg]

Rioting is a symptom, not the problem

I might have agreed with you to some extent, if there was an element of protest to their actions. You could perhaps argue that the first riots on Saturday night were as a result of the police shooting of the man from Tottenham. BUT, that does not explain the looting and thieving in their own back yard and it certainly doesn't explain how the criminal activity has spread across the country. Do you think that the looting and rioting in Birmingham and Manchester are in protest to the shooting in Tottenham?

I almost choked on my caviar today, when one of the news teams showed a clip of a looter being asked why he was acting in such a way. His response......

'I'm getting my taxes back'

What can you say to that?!

[barnstormer1968]

Right, so we have established ALL the rioters are teenage unemployed black chavvy youths who are also employed thirty something white middle class teachers:}

Sorry, I just had to add that for any Daily Mail readers looking in.

One thing that has been a positive for me has been to see Muslim leaders interviewed on TV tonight. This IMHO has shown this group to be supportive of the UK, our citizens well being and our police, in a very grown up and rational way....Which is how just about all the Muslims I know think and feel.
It has been a real breath of fresh air to see Muslims (although I'm not sure why their view is seen as a separate entity by the reporters) shown as just ordinary citizens who want to do well in life and live peacefully:)

[hval]

@ Pr00ne,

Put your prejudices to one side and realise that this is a hugely complex issue.

No Pr00ne, it really is simple: -

Mugging - Crime Rioting - Crime Burning Buildings down - Crime Mugging people - Crime Killing people - Crime Throwing petrol bombs, rocks, stone setc. - Crime Threatening and bullying people - Crime GBH - Crime Stealing - Crime



I have probably missed a few things. I have just thought of something; Pr00ne is telling us that all that has been in the news, on TV and that has been seen globally hasn't really happened. We are all imagining it.

Pr00ne. I will respond here about what we were discussing elsewhere. I can not understand how you believe that the criminals are not being given rights over those non criminals. I really don't know what world you live in. Obviously not the real world. I see it all around me. It makes the news and TV. What about "The Scheme"? What about all those who claims thousands in benefits illegally and get to pay back pay £0 per decade?

I actually think you write what you do to wind us up.

[The Old Fat One]

Obvious from some of the comments above that some people just don't (or won't) get it.

The so-called rioters (or to give them their real name "opportunistic looters") come from all backgrounds, from the socially deprived to the well-off. They are looting for the thrill, for the rush and because society is letting them. For most of them it has absolutley nothing to do with their economic circumstances or social enviroment...it is nothing more than the gangs that hang around everynight on street corners let of the leash, with some hardened lawbreakers mixed in to take advantage.

People have been murdered and several dozen torched out of their homes. It is anarchy, so it has to be stamped out. The initial response was weak...it is getting better.

The primary purpose of the petition is to let the politicos know that Middle England is severely p1ssed off. It has already achieved its aim. All punitive punishments have consequences as do all crimes. In the face of anarchy it is the Governments job to protect its citizens.

Whatever the cost.

[Saintsman]

I've copied this from another site but it sums up quite a lot.

I listened to a Scottish Professor of Psychology being interviewed on BBC radio last night. To paraphrase…
Interviewer: “Clearly professor, these rioters have a common purpose, a common goal. They want to let society know of their frustrations and that they are driven by a strong desire and common purpose. Can you explain how their minds are working and what exactly they are seeking”
Professor: “ I think that what they are seeking is the acquisition of a large-screen, high definition television set, hopefully with 3-D capability.
Interviewer: “Er, pardon,”
Professor: “Lets’s face it; they’re not targeting bastions of capitalism; I mean, they’re not throwing paint and bricks at banks. What they are doing is smashing they way into Dixons & Currys and walking off with television sets and I-phones.
Interviewer: But the common motive behind the rioting…the true cause is?
Professor: “Like I said, they want to steal a television set.
Interviewer: “ Er, thanks, Professor.

[McC]

Can someone tell the petitioning originator how to spell lose?

Tried to sign up but the site is busy.

:ok:

[Shack37]

Can someone tell the petitioning originator how to spell lose?


Can someone tell McC how to read post #13

[TheWizard]

Perhaps No10 might take a bit of notice after all.....

http://a.yfrog.com/img611/7899/rbbjsq.jpg

[Al Murdoch]

PTT - Yr Point 1. Wrong! They don't go to jail. That is precisely half of the problem.
When you combine a weak justice system that provides effectively no deterrent to bad behaviour and a section of society that sees itself as having nothing to lose, then you have an explosive mixture. Stir in poor parenting, moronic rap and celebrity culture, missing fathers, a society that tells people about their rights but not their responsibilities, a system that rewards idleness and punishes enterprise.... and you get something like the last 3 days.

[davejb]

Well said TOFO.

The 'Daily Mail bit' is the assumption that the rioters are all, or largely all, on benefits, which would appear to be a dubious claim. The scots professor is bang on in my view.

What's the point of asking for rioters to lose benefits? Why not ask for something more straightforward that will apply to all rioters of whatever origin, ie 'petition for all rioters to get at least 5 years hard labour with no parole' ... might have to build an extra prison or two and provide the hard labour bit mind....

On the other hand...
It's opportunist crime, of a very serious degree, and any response should probably be equally seriously thought through instead of going for the standard knee jerk responses we seem to do ever so well. Meantime prosecute every one who gets caught, and don't go easy in court.

[snafu]

I just tried the e-petition , but the direct.gov website seems to be struggling with volume (wonder why:hmm:??)!

I agree that it's usually a waste of time, but the BBC News is stating that if an e-petition gets more than 100,000 signatures, it triggers a referral to a back-bench business committee of MPs, who can then call for a debate on it in the House.

On a slightly lighter note, a friend of mine just posted a great line on Facebook.....anyone who suggests that these riots are down to cuts is unfortunately missing a letter! ;)

[PTT]

Al MurdochPTT - Yr Point 1. Wrong! They don't go to jail. That is precisely half of the problem. Then point 2 applies, obviously.

What do you think the reason for the welfare state is? Do you think that the rich started giving money to the poor in England and Wales 400+ years ago out of the kindness of their hearts or some sense of social responsibility or pressure? Or do you think that it was there to reinforce a sense of social hierarchy and provide a way of controlling the 'lower orders'?

[Al Murdoch]

Christ I thought I was cynical...

[Finningley Boy]

What is it with some of you? First it was "the blacks" now it's the "unemployed." Put your prejudices to one side and realise that this is a hugely complex issue.

The first person up in front of Highbury magistrates for looting and affray this morning was a 31 year old school teacher.

pr00ne my Dear Chap,

The 31 year old referred to above is actually an infant school assistant. Still a respectable position of course, but not the learned scholar which some may take your post to indicate. In other words, not quite that shocking, I saw him on telly as well he sounded not at all the Jimmy Edwards type, more Dizzy Rascal.:}

FB:)

[PTT]

Cynicism is the realism of the pessimist. Yours is hardly an argument against what I'm saying though.

[cazatou]

PTT

The "Welfare State" started in the aftermath of World War 2 when Food, Electricity & Gas were in short supply and a large percentage of the Housing Stock had been destroyed or damaged. In addition the Nations medical facilities were overloaded by the dramatic increase in the birth rate on top of the large number of Civilian and Military casualties.

Many Civilian and Service Personnel ( particularly those who had been incarcerated in Japanese Camps in the Far East) returned unable to fend for themselves due to both physical and mental injuries sustained over a 6 year period. There were also a large number of "War Widows" with young children who needed support and shelter.

[PTT]

Your history isn't going back far enough. The English Poor Laws were codified in the late 1500s/early 1600s and were simply the redistribution of wealth from rich to poor - no different to what happens now, just with less paperwork. Even before that the church did the same, for much the same reason.

[The Old Fat One]

PTT you make some interesting points...they remind of my days in the sixth form political debating society. I think you will find that nobody cares in this instance because...

a. The links between social and economic circumstance and these lootings are clearly contrived.

b. We are talking about anarchy and the breakdown of law and order. Once the looters are off the streets (by fair means or foul) the political debate can resume.

Since the BBC/Facebook are now advertising the e petition far and wide, the job here is done. Mods please lock it up (or somebody tell me how to).

PS

Really Annoyed...you are a tiresome little troll. If you read the OP you will see I asked for the indulgence of the Mods because I thought this would be of interest to military Ppruners, many of whom have fought in the cause of freedom, security and democracy. I try to observe the rules and decorum of Pprune, perhaps you could do the same?

[PTT]

I'm choosing not to take your "6th form debating society" comment as an insult ;)

The links between social and economic circumstance and these lootings are clearly contrived.Au contraire. See "Austerity and Anarchy" by Ponticelli and Voth (you can d/l your own copy for £3):
"Expenditure cuts carry a significant risk of increasing the frequency of riots, anti-government demonstrations, general strikes, political assassinations, and attempts at revolutionary overthrow of the established order. While these are lowprobability events in normal years, they become much more common as austerity measures are implemented. This may act as a potent brake on governments. In line with our results on expenditure, Woo (2003) showed that countries with higher levels of unrest are more indebted. High levels of instability show a particularly clear connection with fiscal consolidation."
That's based on data from 1919 to 2009 across Europe.

We are talking about anarchy and the breakdown of law and order. Once the looters are off the streets (by fair means or foul) the political debate can resume.Fair means only. Do it by foul means and you sacrifice the very thing you are trying to protect: law and order.

[Taff Missed]

davejb

5 years hard labour won't do it. What these clowns actually need is six cuts across the ar$e with a cane, Singapore & Malaysia style. It'll never happen of course because it would infringe their 'human' rights and the liberals and tree-huggers would be up in arms. But if it did happen, they'd never do it again!

TM

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

PTT, I don't know where you read your copy of Ponticelli and Voth's "Austerity and Anarchy" (available free of charge on the internet) but it comes up in Aditya Chakraborty's article in the Guardian. A well researched and learned tome by two social economists but has cod all to do with the criminal behavior of the last few nights.

As Chakrabortty notes:
London in the early 80s was marked out by a generation of black and Asian politicians who were able to serve as interlocutors for their communities. Bernie Grant, Paul Boateng and others were not Labour frontbenchers and often to the left of Michael Foot and the party leadership: they were able to serve as credible representatives of areas in turmoil. David Lammy is an admirable MP, but he does not have the same heft. Which is partly why this week’s disorder has often seemed so apolitical.
True, it has been apolitical. But what has perhaps frightened most of us has been the casual disdain for common humanity: violence has not been targeted against ‘the establishment’, but against anyone who happens to be in the way, even if they’re an ordinary member of the local community.
This was purposeless lawlessness. And there’s little point in blaming today’s current crop of politicians, of whichever hue, for that state. This is a deep-seated problem in our society, a failure of families and community and the economy and politics.


The solution is more likely if a version of Taff Missed's proposal is applied.
I do not believe the use of the word "riot" in the E- Petition is accurate in this context.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

The Old Fat One (could be me!)
Since the BBC/Facebook are now advertising the e petition far and wide, the job here is done. Mods please lock it up (or somebody tell me how to).
You could delete your opening post, but please give PTT a chance to justify his quote from A and A.

[PTT]

I got mine here for £3 -> http://www.cepr.org/pubs/new-dps/dplist.asp?dpno=8513.asp

As the part I quoted states, levels of instability (political or otherwise) increase with the application of austerity measures and the level of indebtedness of the state.
I have now read the Guardian article you quoted, and Chakrabortty doesn't seem to offer any sort of conclusion, just differing points of view (and it is a good article).
Do you really think that a well-adjusted citizen will be the result of such treatment as Taff suggests? Or perhaps the result will be a more resentful and less productive member of society?

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

They can hardly get less productive (except bringing more potential scrotes into the world..and I have an extreme but working solution for that) and yes probably more resentful. They will, however, remember the punishment for their crimes and being on the whole the worst examples of cowards, may not be prepared to "taste" the lash again. One only has to suffer the sight of these morons leaving the courts and mocking and insulting everyone in sight and I start to think that TM's solution is too soft.

[SOSL]

A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.

There must be a hundred other forums, at least, where this issue, important though it is, is being discussed.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

There must be a hundred other forums, at least, where this issue, important though it is, is being discussed

Are you saying that
professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.

should not take part in the debate?
I'm not particularly interested in the other forums and like to hear what my peers have to say...although, as has been said, this would probably rest better in Jet Blast.

[PTT]

It says "Military Aircrew", not "Military Aviation". I don't see any limitations to the subject matter in the forum description, either, only to the membership, and I certainly fall into that category.

ROG
Less productive = counter-productive. They certainly can be that, and likely will.
Either way, removing benefits from those in need of them will exacerbate the situation, not resolve it. That was my original point, and A&A would seem to back that up. This petition is a short-sighted method for getting a short-sighted, reactionary policy briefly into the limelight.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Agreed PTT

[davejb]

Of course the 11 year old girl caught in Nottingham (along with her 14 year old confreres) at 1130pm probably isn't on benefits either.

Look, we're mostly right wing fascists on here (it all depends where you are standing <g>) and fulminating here is just a BP release valve, but if supposedly well educated types like what we is can't make a rational response what hope is there for the UK?

Personally I feel the pendulum has swung way too far towards personal liberty, and this is probably going to kick off a swing that will go too far towards personal liabilty, but we (as a country) should at least TRY to come up with a solution that wouldn't double as a Daily Mail headline.

No point birching etc until you put the mechanism in place and get everyone used to the idea - a punishment that wasn't on the statute books when you did the crime is revenge, and irrational. Now, get it onto the statute books and THEN apply it and you're getting a bit closer (perhaps) to commonsense.

[cazatou]

PTT

I think that you must be a relation of someone I went to School with in the early '60s. Every lesson was dissected by him to conform with Marxist Orthodoxy and any evidence that his viewpoint was not correct was derided in a frenzy of personal abuse.

In July 1989 I was fortunate enough to fly the RAF Staff College to Moscow for an exchange visit with the Soviet Air Force Staff College. I was expecting to see a lower standard of living than that pertaining in the UK - but what we saw was a larger number of beggars than I ever saw in third world Countries.

[green granite]

Look what I got when I tried to see what the current signature level was, now if I was a cynic.........................


"Sorry, e-petitions is temporarily unavailable.

The e-petitions site is having problems at the moment. We need to temporarily suspend the creation and signing of e-petitions to allow us to make sure everything is working properly for you.

We aim to re-open the e-petitions site by Friday morning (12th August).

We're very sorry for the inconvenience this causes you.

The e-petition entitled “Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits” has now passed the threshold of 100,000 signatures and has been passed to the Backbench Business Committee to consider for debate. It will continue to be available for signature once the site is re-opened."

[PTT]

I think that you must be a relation of someone I went to School with in the early '60s. Every lesson was dissected by him to conform with Marxist Orthodoxy and any evidence that his viewpoint was not correct was derided in a frenzy of personal abuse.Feel free to show me where I have derided anything in "a frenzy of personal abuse."
I find this comment somewhat puzzling tbh. It appears you are saying that providing actual academic papers on the matter is now dissecting it to conform with my viewpoint, and that pointing out our differing definitions of "welfare state" might be "a frenzy of personal abuse." Feel free to clarify :confused:
In July 1989 I was fortunate enough to fly the RAF Staff College to Moscow for an exchange visit with the Soviet Air Force Staff College. I was expecting to see a lower standard of living than that pertaining in the UK - but what we saw was a larger number of beggars than I ever saw in third world Countries. Is this perhaps some strawman you are setting up intimating that I am advocating communism? I'd prefer it if you instead tried commenting on the argument I am actually making rather than the one you wish I was (it's fairly clearly stated in my post at 17:33 today - bottom of page 3) :ok:

[Lou Scannon]

The petition is well and truly open for signatures again and I have added mine sending this address to all my contacts:

Convicted London rioters should loose all benefits. - e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/petitions/7337)

If anyone can think of a better or more democratic way in which the public can express their views on these criminals...let me know.:ok:

[Lou Scannon]

Sorry...this is a more direct link:

HM Government e-petitions (http://epetitions.direct.gov.uk/)

[BEagle]

It isn't really appropriate to single out just 'London' rioters for loss of benefits - benefits to all such rioters should be reviewed, no matter where they are caught. Neither would loss of 'all' benefits be wholly appropriate - although perhaps a minimal benefit level might be?

I've signed the e-petition purely because it will probably now be debated, hence the disapproval of rioters' benefit abuse will be brought into focus and cannot be ignored.

I would sooner these thieves having to earn their 'benefit' by being forced to clear up the damage they've caused.

But if you remove their benefits completely, they'll just start thieving again.

[I'm Off!]

Might I suggest a 'chain gang' system of hard community service, wearing pink high vis jackets with "Criminal" printed on the back. They could start by clearing up all the areas that were damaged during the criminal activity, they could help the shopkeepers whose stock and premises were looted, and when all of that is cleared up they can start repairing potholes on our roads. Preferably whilst it rains, hard...

[RAFEngO74to09]

How about this as a model - "Tent City" jail and chain gang in Maricopa County, Arizona. All inmates, male and female, are required to wear issued, pink underwear. Inmates food costs are $0.40 per day - police service dog food costs are $1.15 per day !

Sheriff Joe Arpaio's Chain Gang Tent City - YouTube

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aXkV0QfD99c

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1Hnq_hK4yDQ

Whenever the mamby-pampies claim that it is "inhumane" to house inmates in tents in temperatures of up to 130 deg F without air conditioning, Sheriff Joe Arpaio (age 79) always says "If our troops in Afghanistan have to endure it, why should criminals have it any better".

[jamesdevice]

&quot;Might I suggest a 'chain gang' system of hard community service, wearing pink high vis jackets with &quot;Criminal&quot; printed on the back. &quot;

They'd regard it as a badge of honour What should be done is to deport them to a prison labour camp in the Falklands for a year or two Send our asylum seekers there as well

[davejb]

Or we could specify sensible sentences and penalties for crimes, which our judiciary imposed in a fair manner (thereby allowing the lenient end of a term to be applied to genuine hard luck types while the hard cases got the hard end of same), and when we put people into jail to serve those terms they didn't get out early unless there really had been some amazing turnround in attitude.

Oh, hang on, that's the way it's meant to work already.

How about we don't rough out a punishment over 20 minutes hard thinking and a bottle of red for the latest thing to annoy us from our media services, driven as they are by advertising and viewer/circulation count with little if any regard for the truth.

There's no need to pass special laws if the law itself is correctly framed, and whipping up a quick law based on the last thing to hit your TV in between the Emmerdale and Corrie omnibuses is a bloody stupid way to run things.... it's also an invitation to nasty people to do stuff you'll bitch about 2 years down the line when your uncle Kevin gets topped for mowing the lawn on a Sunday.

E-petition...great, the great unwashed get to make policy - for heaven's sake, that's worse than letting the bloody politicians do it.

BTW RAFENG, please point me towards any part of the UK with a temp of 130F, 'cos I've frozen my nuts off in the past 3 weeks and it'd make a nice change.

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

any part of the UK with a temp of 130F, 'cos I've frozen my nuts off

That'll do. Stop the scrotes procreating!

[BBadanov]

That'll do. Stop the scrotes procreating!

Unfortunately, this is quite true.

These dropkicks on the streets invariably come from single mothers, or broken homes (in general), where generations have never had jobs or burdened responsibility, or known the meaning of discipline.

Society allows this to continue, otherwise it is an infringement of human rights and personal freedom, or other such crap. Why work when the Govt doles out the dole and any number of benefits?

David Campbell - despite his ignorance of defence affairs - recently got it right: "There is a problem with children growing up not knowing the difference between right and wrong."