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View Full Version : Mr Petter's Baby Jet - The Folland Gnat


Halton Brat
9th Aug 2011, 08:52
Having seen the interest (not to mention thread drift!) on the F-104 thread, regarding the Folland Gnat, I would like to launch this thread, dedicated to my first 'real' aeroplane as a rigger youth at 4FTS in the early '70s.

I'm sure many pilots/groundcrew out there have recollections to share about this demanding jet!

HB

NutherA2
9th Aug 2011, 08:56
The Gnat gave me three of the most cheerful years of my time in the RAF. Improved my flying a lot, too.:ok::ok::ok:

sharpend
9th Aug 2011, 09:53
I was lucky enough to fly the Gnat in 1966. I also instructed on Hawk in the 80s. Chalk & cheese.

Wander00
9th Aug 2011, 10:14
Sharpend - 22 Course or 23 Course? I was 22

BombayDuck
9th Aug 2011, 10:20
Much loved in the IAF (and by the general public) after its performance in the '71 war, earning it the nickname 'Sabre Killer'. My great uncle retired a year before it was inducted in the IAF. He told me his single biggest regret was not having flown it.

BOAC
9th Aug 2011, 10:59
'Twas always said you don't strap into one, you 'put it on'.:) (and it always fitted so beautifully).

BEagle
9th Aug 2011, 14:17
Halton Brat, just type 'Gnat' into the advanced search option and you'll find plenty of tales of the Folland Pocket Rocket!

Don't forget that well-known Ynys Mon firm of solicitors - Speed, Trim and Unlock.

I'm convinced that the chap who designed the Gnat's longitudinal control system knew he was going to be fired, so decided to get his own back by designing a system of such fiendish complexity.

airpolice
9th Aug 2011, 15:06
http://pittenweem.co.uk/weexp506a.jpg

Some of my best memories of being in the RAF are associated with this aircraft.

http://pittenweem.co.uk/southstack1.jpg

http://pittenweem.co.uk/gnatline.jpg

http://pittenweem.co.uk/gnat47.jpg


http://pittenweem.co.uk/5.jpg

Halton Brat
9th Aug 2011, 15:50
BEagle

Thanks for the tip - doesn't XR538 look fantastic! Great paint job.
Oh dear, seem to have a speck of dust in my eye..........

HB

Sam Dodger
9th Aug 2011, 15:52
Flew them as a stude in '66 on 25 course and then QFI on them from 73 - 77. An ideal aircraft to learn about swept wing handling characteristics but remember spending an awful lot of time practising flying in manual reversion mode in case of an hydraulic failure which I didn't suffer in 1300+ hours on the pocket rocket.

jamesdevice
9th Aug 2011, 16:15
any truth in the rumour that there was a suggested swing-wing version? Allegedly drafted by Barnes Wallis? Or is that total rubbish?

Halton Brat
9th Aug 2011, 16:20
James D

The machine you are referring to was, of course, the Mk2 Wiggins Aerodyne.

HB

jamesdevice
9th Aug 2011, 16:25
thanks
that explains the confusion

Wander00
9th Aug 2011, 17:16
the Gnat - best fun I ever had with my clothes on

Halton Brat
9th Aug 2011, 17:32
When I was a Hawk tech instructor in 4FTS Ground School ('83-85), the DCGI (Flt Lt Tony D-----) related an incident to me of his early days on the Gnat as a QFI. I can't remember the precise details, but he ended up at night circling overhead the Menai Straits with the stick planted hard in the dashboard, due to some bizarre configuration he had got himself into with his pitch controls. An emotional radio chat with the Duty Instructor in Valley ATC resolved the issue, fortunately.

Any opinions on the likely cause?

Are you out there, Tony D?

HB

A2QFI
9th Aug 2011, 18:20
If you mean Tony D**le yes he is - I had a beer and lunch in a pub with him a couple of years ago. I had a great time instructing at Valley (64 - 66). Loads of aircraft, 3 students and no poxy secondary duties! I got 440 hours in one 12 month period, basically 50 minute sorties, and I was beaten by the late Bruce Latton. I have lost touch with my main students Marcus Wills, "Taff" Hughes and Tony Ellender. Any ideas anybody?

BEagle
9th Aug 2011, 18:46
Any opinions on the likely cause?


Cocked up STUPRECC drill with a simulated HYD fail? Use an excessive nose up TPI value and you'd probably run out of 'unlock' elevators to maintain level flight as speed increased? In the early days, the Gnat didn't have a feel trim gauge, so setting the correct tailplane and feel trim position values would have been much more difficult - you had about 30 sec before the TPI froze, after which you could only move it nose-up from the failure point using standby trim.

Slow down until the stick was 'load free central', reselect the HYD power cock ON, relock the elevators and it should be OK?

Please would a Gnat QFI comment - I was a mere struggling student! But I'd been advised that it was vital to understand the longitudinal control system fully and to know the STUPRECC drill so that you could recite it word perfect at any time of day or night. Screw it up and at best you'd have to eject......

ACW599
9th Aug 2011, 19:18
I'm sure I remember someone from that era telling me that the Lightning was a good lead-in trainer for the Gnat...

BEagle
9th Aug 2011, 19:25
I'm sure I remember someone from that era telling me that the Lightning was a good lead-in trainer for the Gnat...

Much as an ETPS preview assessment student concluded about the C130 being a good lead-in trainer for the worthless Jetstream!

sharpend
9th Aug 2011, 19:56
Wander00

I started in June 66. Think it must have been 25 course?

Wander00
9th Aug 2011, 21:55
Aah, so we did not cross; I was the student on 22 Course with the most hours and who was going to be streamed to the Canberra, so completed the course a a month early, in June 66.

NutherA2
9th Aug 2011, 23:22
the stick planted hard in the dashboard
I wound up in a similar situation once, by varying the routine "hydraulic failure" emergency in that I turned the power off after the gear had been lowered in the ILS pattern; the 5º "up" tailplane datum shift had of course been activated by this time.

My student fell completely for my cunning plan and selected wheels up immediately after the go-around. When pushing the stick up against the dashboard didn't stop the aircraft from pitching up quickly even further, his "You have control, Sir" was overstating the case a bit

The nose was a bit high and the speed uncomfortably low to restore normality by lowering the gear again, but rolling to a very large angle of bank meant I could let go of the stick (no hands = load free) so I could put the hydraulic power back on before we ran out of IAS completely. ATC were highly amused by this performance, but fortunately didn't klype to the Thought Police in Standards, who never heard of the incident.

PS I didn't do it again, ever.

GreenKnight121
10th Aug 2011, 03:46
any truth in the rumour that there was a suggested swing-wing version? Allegedly drafted by Barnes Wallis? Or is that total rubbish?

The Folland Gnat / HAL Ajeet (http://www.vectorsite.net/avgnat.html#m4)

The final and most spectacular redesign was a Mach 2 variable geometry ("swing wing") machine, the Folland "Fo.148", that was intended as a trainer, air superiority fighter, or light strike aircraft. The wings were to have full-span leading-edge flaps and slotted trailing edge flaps; there would be a single stores pylon on each side of the fuselage. It was to have been fitted with an afterburning RB.153 engine with a thrust reverser. The Fo.148 was said to have been the last aircraft design to bear a Folland designation before the company was absorbed into the Hawker-Siddeley group. It was an interesting design and it is a bit of shame it never flew.

Spirit of Hamble. Folland Aircraft by Derek N. James, Tempus Publishing Ltd., Stroud 2003 has drawings of the Fo.148.

sharpend
10th Aug 2011, 05:28
Yup, I too went to Canberras, but so did hundreds of others. In those days there were Canberra Sqns in UK, Germany, Malta, Near East, Middle East & Far East. I went to just one of the 4 Canberra Sqns at Akrotiri, No 73. I suspect soon that the RAF will have less aeroplanes than Akrotiri had in the 60s. Four strike/attack Sqns, 1 fighter Sqn, 1 helicopter flt and a transport Sqn.

Harley Quinn
10th Aug 2011, 05:38
For more 'what ifs' - not just the Gnat, try to get hold of a copy of Project Cancelled by Derek Wood. As a young teenager I borrowed a copy from my local lending lending library in the late '70's. Sad reading.

BEagle
10th Aug 2011, 07:41
NutherA2, I wonder whether the STUPRECCC drill was changed after your event? 'T' stood for 'trim to the safe/ideal sector on the FTPI' rather than 'load free' and 'E' included exhausting the tail accumulator 1½-2½ (gear up) or 5½-6½ (gear down) - I think?

My QFI gave me a HYD failure just as we broke into the circuit once from 500ft and 360+ KIAS - the clangers went off just as I pitched into the break. But the STUPRECCC drill worked fine.

I'm sure that QFIs watched student antics very carefully under such circumstances - but you knew you were doing well when your QFI was brave enough to let you fly a night manual roller....at Mona!

However, mistakes were still being made. Stn Cdr 'Tojo' had a HYD fail on take-off just after retracting the landing gear. He then closed the throttle and put the gear down without doing the STUPRECCC drill first. No Datum Shift, so the jet immediately plunged towards Treaddur Bay....with an innocent passenger in the back. Fortunately as it accelerated it had just enough pitch authority to level out and start to climb before he remembered the Stby Trim...:hmm: Tojo flew the Hunter by preference thereafter.

Great little jet, STUPRECCC and CUBSTUNT notwithstanding!

Lightning Mate
10th Aug 2011, 11:04
I'm sure I remember someone from that era telling me that the Lightning was a good lead-in trainer for the Gnat...

:D:D........

dfv8
10th Aug 2011, 11:28
For more 'what ifs' - not just the Gnat, try to get hold of a copy of Project Cancelled by Derek Wood. As a young teenager I borrowed a copy from my local lending lending library in the late '70's.


I still have my copy that I bought in my late teens.:ok:

Harley Quinn
10th Aug 2011, 12:41
Don't give it to anyone- 1st edition now at least £42 on that South American river

andyy
10th Aug 2011, 13:55
Still have mine. Can't remember the chapter but in there somewhere the book describes a plan to hang 3 Gnats under a Vulcan and use them for strike missions, I think.

Yellow Son
10th Aug 2011, 14:03
The contributor who said 'you put it on' was exactly right. My guilty 'secret' which of course was the same for almost everyone else was that I would give myself an illicit thrill by pressing the test button (on the right console?) to inflate my turning trousers while taxying out.

Not to say that the Pkt Rkt was unreliable, but on my course of 12 students (86, 1965) we had 12 major incidents. Mine was a full display of warnings while IMC, climbing solo out of low level - made a precautionary forced landing at Church Fenton, bollocked by OC Eng because I "should have known" it was a false alarm caused by an electrical fault. I wished he'd been in the cockpit with me to help me make that call.

Trophy for our course must go to Dave A***e, who suffered fuel pump failure just before low key while doing a practice glide approach. I was sitting at the take-off point so can witness that he disappeared behind the hill on the approach to 14, still in the cockpit (still going through cold relight drill, according to Dave). First thing to reappear was the canopy, followed by Dave, followed by a bouncing Gnat. Happy days!

Lyneham Lad
10th Aug 2011, 18:04
However, mistakes were still being made. Stn Cdr 'Tojo' had a HYD fail on take-off just after retracting the landing gear. He then closed the throttle and put the gear down without doing the STUPRECCC drill first. No Datum Shift, so the jet immediately plunged towards Treaddur Bay....with an innocent passenger in the back. Fortunately as it accelerated it had just enough pitch authority to level out and start to climb before he remembered the Stby Trim... Tojo flew the Hunter by preference thereafter.

At the time of the incident I was a Sgt ATechA on night-shift in the Gaydon Hangar and we carried out a hyd pump change on that aircraft. It was SOP at that time to just carry out a quick ground run to check the pump came on line and for leaks etc. Came in the following evening to hear all sorts of kerfuffle and accusations had gone on following the incident until it was revealed that the pump's quill-shaft had sheared when the engine reached full-bore. As a consequence, a requirement to carry out a full bore run after a pump change was introduced.

'73 to '77 happy days on 4FTS.

A2QFI
10th Aug 2011, 18:24
Copies here from £25 + P&P

Derek wood - project cancelled - AbeBooks (http://www.abebooks.co.uk/servlet/SearchResults?an=Derek+wood&bt.x=44&bt.y=8&sts=t&tn=project+cancelled)

ex-fast-jets
10th Aug 2011, 18:45
Now that I am old and grey - well, what's left is grey - I wish I had realised when I was 21 what fun I was having in the Gnat.

A lovely aircraft - and I would love to fly one again!!

And, on my course at Valley, some great instructors who helped to make me enjoy the aircraft.

The A-5 pass will be in my dreams......................................

Halton Brat
10th Aug 2011, 19:01
Lyneham Lad

Pls check your PM's

HB

soddim
10th Aug 2011, 20:31
One of the most interesting aircraft I have flown – as a student for 67 hours in 1964.

Didn’t enjoy the unique feeling of rolling down the runway in a strong crosswind feeling that one’s ear was likely to scrape the runway sometime soon but enjoyed the joy of aerobatics in the tiniest jet I ever flew. Enjoyed the ‘first one off the ground’ beat up of the airfield every morning – and the Stn Cdr’s face when he came out the SECO huts after met brief and saw the first one off below the level of the line of fins of the line a few feet in front of him. He grounded the pilot for a week – after landing a private aircraft departed for a visit to the girlfriend that lasted just a week – back on the programme on return!

Was instructed by one Bruce Latton – reckon he learned much about instructing in that period. Fire ext in front cockpit impacted and bent the throttle lever during an excessive G recovery from a spiral dive – preceded by a c**k-up over who had control. On the way back to Valley I thought pulling the hyd cock off whilst I was holding the fire ext in one hand, the stick in the other and trying to work out if I could still move the bent throttle was just one step too far for a student like me.

Remember the unpopular PMC who never worked out why his radio controlled boats kept failing out in the lake outside the OM – he never saw the students with the air rifles leaning out of the windows on the first floor but he spent a lot of time in waders!

My Flight Commander was one Al Poll**k – and he later joined our Hunter course at Chivenor having had to arrange a quick posting out of Training Command to escape the aftermath of his inverted flight at an airshow during a temporary ban on neg G. Punch-ups in the cine’ room after an air-to-air sortie were another story.

Very grateful for the lessons learned from that little aircraft-lessons that surely helped later in Hunters, Lightnings and Phantoms.

Nessa
11th Aug 2011, 09:20
Bizarrely, there is a (rather untidy) Gnat sitting next to some greenhouses at Reynard's Nursery, just west of Carluke, Lanarkshire. They also have a Convair 440 that they are turning into a hotel.

Halton Brat
11th Aug 2011, 09:40
Good choice for the hotel. The Gnat would be somewhat cramped.

HB

Lightning Mate
11th Aug 2011, 12:59
that surely helped later in Hunters, Lightnings and Phantoms

Sure did with Frightening, but only when I converted to the F3.

OR946 'an all that.

sharpend
11th Aug 2011, 13:27
Yup, I remember Bruce Latton, made me do steep turns at 50 ft over the sea, ON INSTRUMENTS!. Sure sharpened up my IF. Sadly Bruce died a year or so ago.

I never had any technical difficulties with the Gnat, but do remember one solo Hi Lo Hi to Scotland. I elected to continue over the Irish Sea, IMC at 250 ft hoping to break cloud. Must have screwed up my DR drift calculations as I broke cloud just abeam Blackpool Tower, only 20 miles off track. Would have been famous if I had hit it!

Wander00
11th Aug 2011, 18:26
Did my "night" conversion with Bruce Latton - got St Elmo's Fire on the cockpit arch one night. Was he the guy that hit you on the helmet with a nav ruler from the back seat?

soddim
11th Aug 2011, 19:03
Not in my day - I was just about his very first student and I enjoyed flying with him - we both learned a lot but I never saw a nav ruler!

Lyneham Lad
11th Aug 2011, 19:04
Sometimes a Valley Gnat could be seen in interesting company...

http://www.kmercerphotography.co.uk/ForumPics/Old_Pair001_crop_850.jpg

ex-fast-jets
11th Aug 2011, 19:08
A Valley gnat, or a red one, when the Reds were in their prime?

Lyneham Lad
11th Aug 2011, 19:14
A Valley gnat, or a red one, when the Reds were in their prime?

IIRC, a 4FTS one as part of the static display for a Valley Open Day ('75?). The Reds did carry out a display and I remember thinking at the time that if only I had nipped up one of the pan floodlight towers I could have photographed them from above...

Wander00
11th Aug 2011, 19:19
There was not an instructor that I flew with at Valley from whom I did not learn an awful lot, some of them lessons that would save my life at some time, and none whom I did not like and enjoy flying with.

X767
11th Aug 2011, 19:31
Wonderful little aeroplane. Did the second gnat course with great instructors like Lee Jones, Tony Doyle,Gerry Ranscombe and others who my advancing years can't remember. "Trim & unlock" has remained in my deep sub - conscious ever since !

A2QFI
11th Aug 2011, 19:38
Speed, trim, unlock I think! The whole thing was STUPRE ISTR. Was this not Speed, Trim, Unlock, Pressure Release, Exhaust. If it was a practice failure it was necessary to make small fore/aft control movements to exhaust the remaining hyd pressure to leave the tailplane locked on the optimum position.It is a long time since I flew a Gnat or did my A2 with Al East!

BEagle
11th Aug 2011, 20:04
STUPRECCC for HYD fail was:
Speed below 400/M0.85
Trim to the safe/ideal FTPI sector
Unlock elevators, check 2 clicks, white band and 'ELEV' caption on
Power cock OFF
Raise the Stby Trim guard
Exhaust the aileron accumulator and pitch accumulator with the TPI at 1½°-2½° nose-up (gear up) / 5½°-6½° (gear down)
Check control column response
Check TPI response to Stby Trim
Changeover Stby Trim to stick top using Mod 399 switches.

"Speed-Trim-Unlock-Power-Exhaust-Check-Check-Change"

CUBSTUNT for AC/DC fail was:
Cabin altimeter to 'Static'
UHF standby TRx ON
Boost pump OFF
Speed below 300/M0.7 (I think??)
Trim to the safe/ideal FTPI sector
Unlock elevators, check 2 clicks, white band and 'ELEV' caption on
Non-essential electrics OFF
Transponder to 7700

GeeRam
11th Aug 2011, 21:07
Sometimes a Valley Gnat could be seen in interesting company...

Looks like a Reds Gnat to me......

Same scheme as....

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/4/4d/GNAT-XR537.jpg

airpolice
11th Aug 2011, 21:37
At some point over the weekend I will post colour pictures from the Valley 1975 airshow.

Piggies
11th Aug 2011, 21:44
I was at St Athan in 1988 and I recall a Gnat in grey/green camouflage parked (stored?) outside one of the hangars. What was that all about?

I would have loved a blat in a Gnat!

Harley Quinn
11th Aug 2011, 21:51
This always makes my day, and for some reason you get it twice, so your day will be twice as nice.

Very Low Level Flight - YouTube



He's a poet and doesn't know it ;)

Piggies
11th Aug 2011, 21:57
I knew it;)

Please can somebody answer the question, it's been bugging me for 23 years!

jamesdevice
11th Aug 2011, 21:59
Piggies

this one maybe?
Warbird Depot - Jets > Steve Rosenberg's Folland Gnat T-1 (http://www.warbirddepot.com/aircraft_jets_gnat-rosenberg.asp)

Piggies
11th Aug 2011, 22:02
No, it was grey/green like a Jaguar.

jamesdevice
11th Aug 2011, 22:10
one for sale at Folland Gnat for sale by Raptor Aviation, LLC (http://www.raptoraviation.com/aircraft%20spec%20pages/Gnat.html)

$149,000 ONO


Piggies

then maybe a retired Finnish one like these?
Planepictures.net search: Aircraft: Folland Gnat F.1 (http://www.planepictures.net/netsearch4.cgi?stype=actype&srng=2&srch=Folland%20Gnat%20F.1)

Piggies
11th Aug 2011, 22:22
Maybe.

It was definitely a two-seater and there were no Finnish markings. Did Finland send any jets back to the RAF?

jamesdevice
11th Aug 2011, 22:57
US Navy carrier Gnats
Hot Shots! Trailer - IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/video/screenplay/vi3180959769/)

BEagle
12th Aug 2011, 07:16
Piggies, that would have been Gnat T Mk 1 XR541.

After an incident and barrier engagement at RAF Mona on 7 Feb 1978, it was decided not to repair the aircraft as the Gnat was about to leave service. It was then stripped of any useful spares and sent to RAF St Athan as 8602M for ground instructional use.

The aircraft was used by a Painters and Finishers course for practice, being painted as 'PF179' - presumably 179 was their course number.

Now at Bruntingthorpe and hopefully to be restored to ground running condition. A Google Images search for PF179 will provide a recent photo.

Of course 6 camouflaged Gnat single seat fighters were operated by the UK in the 1960s - and a couple still survive. XK724 is at Cosford, but the most authentic is XK740 now at Solent Sky, Southampton.

Wander00
12th Aug 2011, 07:25
I cannot remeber hearing about 6 x single seat Gnats in UK - can anyone give more info?

Harley Quinn
12th Aug 2011, 07:35
Contemporary article in Flight here

(http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1955/1955%20-%201497.html)

Halton Brat
12th Aug 2011, 07:52
BEagle

In the week before XR541's Mona incident, I sweated blood over that jet in order to eliminate a 'hands-off' roll to stbd (Mr Petter considered aileron trim a bit girly, clearly). Despite my best efforts, this proved to be extremely difficult; repeated Test Flights showed only marginal improvement. I began to wonder if we had a twisted airframe & did datum checks etc, to no avail. In the end, I slaughtered a goat & read its' entrails; this revealed to me a course of remedial action that, even to this day, I am not at liberty to divulge. Problem solved.

As I recall, the front seater QFI in the Mona episode (no spool-up on roller landing?) was Flt Lt Tony D****e, who I subsequently worked with in 4FTS Ground School. The venerable (& previously discussed on PPruNe) Flt Lt Douggie Mee was in the back seat. All ended well, despite having driven through the wooden fence, methinks.

Tony D also had to functionally test his bang seat when he had a Gnat fuel pump(?) failure on short finals at Valley in '78(?); he & his stude were able to enjoy a stroll on the beach whilst waiting for 22 Sqn's taxi cab.

Happy days of my youth; nostalgia is not what it used to be..............

HB

Wander00
12th Aug 2011, 08:26
HQ - thanks - were the single seaters just used as manufacturer's trials aircraft, or were they flown by the RAF?

A2QFI
12th Aug 2011, 09:54
There was one single seat proof of concept aircraft built as a Private Venture and called the Midge. It was flight tested by pilots from various Air Forces and crashed after flying over 200 sorties. (wiki)

BEagle
12th Aug 2011, 11:45
The UK's 6 x Gnat F1 fighters were used by the Ministry of Supply as development aircraft, but as far as I'm aware, were never used by the RAF.

The Midge was even smaller and lighter than the Gnat fighter, with an MTOW of only 4500lb and was powered by a Viper engine. The Gnat F1, though with a wingspan only 1ft greater than the Midge, had an MTOW of twice that and was powered by an Orpheus with about 3 times the thrust of the Viper.

I remember Douggie Mee talking about the Mona incident when I went back to do a Hawk 'refresher' course at Valley in 1980. If I recall correctly, the engine stagnated during a roller and the brakes weren't up to stopping the little monster - so it went for a stroll across country off the end of the RW.

HaveQuick2
12th Aug 2011, 13:33
Loads of these seemed to end up in the USA.

Demobbed - Out of Service British Military Aircraft (http://www.demobbed.org.uk/aircraft.php?type=501)

Any idea why they were/are so popular over there? Didn't the Yanks have an equivalent?

Halton Brat
12th Aug 2011, 13:54
HQ2

No doubt this was due to:

High net-worth individuals, looking for toys.
Low fuel costs (at the time).
More user-friendly regulatory environment.

The maintenance hrs per flying hr for the Gnat would be very high, as they were in RAF service. This is a very complex aircraft; engine removal requires tail assy removal. On refitting the tail, the Horizontal Stab incidence angles are measured with a Clinometer, to within a few minutes of a degree tolerance. Adjusting the Stab either took a half-day, or several days, depending on your luck. The Liquid Oxygen Tank also required tail removal for access; deep joy. Fully-powered flying controls with manual reversion, Q-feel, datum shift of Stab on landing gear selection, Hobson Power Unit for the Stab; all crammed into a tiny package. You needed x2 elbows in each double-length arm to do anything.

Loved it though!

HB

BEagle
12th Aug 2011, 14:04
Thanks for the link, HaveQuick2!

I'm glad to see that XR977 has been preserved at Cosford! I was the first of my course to solo on the Gnat and did so on 4 Mar 1975 in XR977. Just a quick 0:30 around Anglesey, then 3 circuits all of which went very smoothly.

Ironically, I was cleared solo by the QFI who had said the day before (about my Ex9): "Right, you dangerous little bugger, you can do that trip again!".

Such helpful debriefs we had in those days! I can't remember what I'd allegedly done wrong, but remember his words quite clearly! But he did the re-fly, so must have been happy the second time.

just another jocky
12th Aug 2011, 14:08
Saw one on the ramp at Sharm El Sheikh last year when I was 'passing through'. Not sure where he was going but he looked tiny parked next to the bigger civjets.

I have a piccy at home somewhere.

pulse1
12th Aug 2011, 17:33
I was wandering around Chino a few years ago and came across a Gnat all done out like Red Arrow. There was a young, bored looking lad fiddling with it and he was eventually joined by a scruffy looking elderly bloke. I asked if it was going to fly and they confirmed that it was so I waited for the hotshot pilot to arrive. In the meantime, I disclosed my futile claim to a back seat ride as the son in law of Petter's cousin.

Then the scruffy bloke came out with a red helmet, jumped in, started up and went flying. :* Still, I would probably have been sick.

Harley Quinn
12th Aug 2011, 17:48
Wander00 they were owned by MoS, flew in RAF markings (XK724, XK739-741, XK767 & XK768), were flown and assessed by RAF pilots, but were not actually operated by the RAF.

Pictures:
http://abpic.co.uk/images/images/1292696M.jpg


http://abpic.co.uk/images/images/1292700M.jpg

Wander00
12th Aug 2011, 19:07
HQ & BEagle - Single seaters - thanks for info

fantom
12th Aug 2011, 19:19
It seems we all have one...

http://i20.photobucket.com/albums/b236/minlgw/39course.jpg

Wander00
12th Aug 2011, 19:24
Fantom - when was that photo taken?

Wander00
12th Aug 2011, 19:25
Thought from the beginning this thread would run for a bit - fantastic

Piggies
12th Aug 2011, 20:04
BEagle,

Thank you

fantom
12th Aug 2011, 20:19
Fantom - when was that photo taken?

Logbook says my FHT on 39 course was June '68.

Also noted, on the top of the hood is the famous Harry Apiafi, no less.

LowObservable
12th Aug 2011, 22:35
The Gnat in the photo always needed left aileron trim after that, nobody ever knew quite sure why...

NutherA2
13th Aug 2011, 08:41
he Gnat in the photo always needed left aileron trim after that, nobody ever knew quite sure why...

If we'd only thought to get Bob Jermyn to sit on the left wing for a while after the photo there may not have been a problem...

fantom
13th Aug 2011, 10:10
Bob J sent me solo.

Lyneham Lad
13th Aug 2011, 21:03
One little incident at Valley still raises a chuckle. The Gnat's internal wing tanks were integral (in other words, not bag-tanks. The structure was sealed with PRC or similar) and it was not uncommon for leaks to develop such that a mainplane change was needed. For this, a Working Party from 71(?) MU would arrive on a CAT2 Assist basis to remove the offending item and fit one that had been reworked.

The Gaydon Hangar floor had servicing pits that had not been used for donkey's years and were covered with teak timbers. Over the years these had become soaked in copious amounts of fluids various. One day, whilst manoeuvring a Gnat into a slot, the port leg went through the planks and the wing hit the concrete with a resounding thud. Surveying the scene, our EngO ('Blakey', due to his likeness to the 'On the Buses' character) came up with a bright idea. In the next slot was an aircraft awaiting a mainplane change due to a leak on the starboard side. "Lets switch port wings". :rolleyes:

solentdave
14th Aug 2011, 11:59
Very interested in the comments regarding the Gnat T1 and it's flying controls. I was a draughtsman in the Folland Design Office 1954 -1965 and worked on the flying controls section on the Gnat trainer. I wouldn't say the Elevator control system was complex but the Hobson unit and the electric trim did give some problems initially. The main problem as far as the RAF were concerned was the lack of longitudinal feel and the manual reversion system. Yes there was a Folland swing wing aircraft design, the FO148, not a swing wing Gnat but much larger and eventually contributing towards the MRCA and the Tornado, I worked on this design in the project office - we have the large low speed wind tunnel model of this aircraft in the Solent Sky museum in Southampton.

Wander00
16th Aug 2011, 10:53
There just HAVE to be more Ganat stories out there.....

fantom
16th Aug 2011, 16:12
Who remembers the episode when a disaffected person ran amok along the line and bent all the pitot probes?

Lyneham Lad
16th Aug 2011, 16:31
Who remembers the episode when a disaffected person ran amok along the line and bent all the pitot probes?

I don't recall that but do recall that aircraft on the Line were found with GS-screwdriver blade-shaped holes in the fuselage. This was in the early days of Flight Line Mechanics (FLM's or more colloquially known as Phlegms...) and there was disgruntlement/disillusion amongst a few of them when reality of life on the Line and their restrictive Terms of Service sank home. Mind you, they were mostly an excellent, hard-working, hard-playing bunch who did a very good job. The one extremely annoying trait was to remove a pea-bulb and holder or two if they felt there were too many serviceable aircraft on the Line on a Friday.

Ooh, Chief, suspect loose article - pea bulb missing! Result for those on the Friday-evening Rects shift were a bunch of aircraft requiring cockpit loose-article checks with all the resulting time-consuming nausea that guaranteed the riggers, plumbers and duty NDT man not getting home until sometime on Sat morning.

NutherA2
17th Aug 2011, 10:23
For all of us Gnat watchers, "Hot Shots" is on the box again tonight - 23:00 on E4:ok:

jamesdevice
17th Aug 2011, 23:57
My grandfather was - apparently - a gardener at the Petter family home in the 1920/30's. Where do I claim my free ride in Gnat / Lightning / Canberra....?

More seriously, if John Brown's hadn't pissed Teddy Petter off, what would Westland be building now, and how differently would the UK aircraft industry have developed?

Is there a Petter archive anywhere of 'what might have been...'?

tornadoken
18th Aug 2011, 09:56
jd: (what) if John Brown's hadn't pissed Teddy Petter off..?
Petter's Ltd. span off Westland Aircraft Ltd 4/7/35, but by 10/35 that "appeared...on the verge of collapse" S.Ritchie, Industry & Air Power, Cass,1997,P.46. Air Ministry facilitated John Brown's acquisition of 50% and A.E.I's of 18.75%, July,1938 to provide the general business heft needed to produce Whirlwind as the prime Home Defence type, to be built by Nuffield at Castle Bromwich. Eric Mensforth came in as M.D. W.E.W.Petter was Technical Director, a “superb design engineer”. but who sought “absolute control (in) all aspects (so with WAL’s) goodwill and the embryo bomber design (to be A1)” and with MAP's blessing (Mensforth then there as Chief Production Adviser) he migrated North in 1944 to be EE’s Design Office. E.Mensforth,Family Engineers, Ward Locke,1981,P.113.

The John Brown involvement caused fellow mariner Vickers to co-operate in MAP's shadow designation of Westland, firstly as Spitfire structure supplier, then assembler, then Seafire and Merlin Spitfire Design Authority, to release Vickers-Supermarine to do Griffon Marks. With or without a family member as Technical Director in 1946, Westland would have gone the way of others, declining to a sub-contractor, if they had tried to remain a Design Prime when there was no business. A wholly-Westland A1 would not have been funded in May,1945: Minister Cripps did so at Preston due to proven production competence and despite his officials querying EE's Design capacity as a one-man show R.Bud/P.Gummett,Cold War Hot Science,Harwood,1999. A1 (to be Canberra), if offered from Yeovil's shed, would either have been declined, or shot-gun into a team.

The salvation of WAL, lifting them above every Boulton Paul, Cunliffe-Owen, General...et al, was the change of product line into rotary. I surmise that W.E.W.Petter would have opposed that. Design creativity seldom cohabits with business flair and with team-inspiration. W.E.W was not G.R Edwards.

jamesdevice
18th Aug 2011, 12:28
interesting thoughts. Of course assembly of the Canberra at Yeovil would have been challenging with just that short grass runway. I wonder how they intended to get round that?

Squawk7143
18th Aug 2011, 15:06
I'm sure I remember someone from that era telling me that the Lightning was a good lead-in trainer for the Gnat... Well the avionics were the same except that the Gnat had no auto throttle and FCS / autostab (IFIS instead of the Lightnings IFICS) . during my 18 months tech training at Cosford in the 80's I had the joy of working on an ex Red Arrows airframe. Managed to drop a fuse down the back of the front seat. No amount of fiddling with endoscopic wiggly tools would recover it. The riggers and the plumbers were pleased:}



S

LowObservable
18th Aug 2011, 18:42
tornadoken...

Fascinating idea that Whirlwind was intended as the prime air defense fighter, but that explains the twin configuration, design for speed and climb rate and the Dornier-disassembling, Heinkel-hacking and Junkers-junking equipment in the nose.

jindabyne
18th Aug 2011, 20:07
I have to disagree with most here. The Gnat, to me, was a tiny aircaft, with a small wing, a narrow track undercarriage, a stupidly small cockpit, a nasty flying control system, and all else that was unrepresentative of the day. Silly little thing. On 3 Sqn, the Hunter F6 was in a different class - as ever.

jamesdevice
18th Aug 2011, 20:26
jindabyne

how tall are you?

jindabyne
18th Aug 2011, 21:14
Lower than most - as most fighter pilots are (were!). With 4 years at 4 FTS Valley on beach-side:)

And before Newt chips in, I was one before becoming a 'bomber' pilot!

BEagle
18th Aug 2011, 21:56
The Gnat, to me, was a tiny aircaft,

True

with a small wing, a narrow track undercarriage

True

a stupidly small cockpit,

A compact, well laid-out design with everything at your fingertips. Except for the ILS channel selector. It had a proper series of red and amber captions for malfunctions, a very simple fuel gauging system and that students' friend, the marvellous offset TACAN! Whereas the Hunter cockpit was an ergonomic slum, with various lights scattered haphazardly. A ridiculous fuel gauging system that only really worked in straight and level flight, circuit breakers which almost required you to dislocate your right shoulder to reset them. The Hunter had an ancient artificial horizon and a turn and slip - whereas the Gnat had a large attitude indicator and a reasonable stand by system. The TACAN indicator in the Hunter was non-intuitive; in the Gnat it was the next best thing to a moving map. The Hunter didn't have ILS or offset TACAN, but at least the Valley jets weren't limited to Rebecca DME! The GT6 Hunter cockpit had one outstanding feature though - it only had one seat!

a nasty flying control system,

Complicated, it is true. But light and precise controls, with Q-feel which provided much better harmony throughout the speed range than the crude hydroboosters of the Hunter. In 'manual' the Gnat still had light control forces, but demanded a specific procedure and was very much a 'get you home' system. Woe betide anyone who didn't understand the longitudinal control system! The Hunter in manual had very heavy controls, but was less demanding than the Gnat - although it could wallow and Dutch roll on the approach.

and all else that was unrepresentative of the day.

I disagree. The Hunter was rather an anachronism and unrepresentative of any contemporary front line fighter of the day, but we loved it for all that! It was exceptionally easy to fly and was a delight in formation, unlike the Gnat which was very twitchy.

Silly little thing. On 3 Sqn, the Hunter F6 was in a different class - as ever.

Except that on 3 Sqn, there was also that lead sled, the T7....

Which would I prefer to fly again? BOTH!!

Krystal n chips
19th Aug 2011, 16:26
In engineering terms, the Gnat was ahead of it's time in many respects being modular in contruction...well more or less. The rear fuse. came apart very easily, the engine removed, the saddle tanks the same and then the wing could simply be lifted off. The problems were re-assembly and cable tensions / setting the tailplane up... plus canopy crazing and the infamous pulley box system behind the rear seat.

A remarkably solid airframe as well, as evidenced by the one I collected at Leck after it's moment of passion with an F-104

The bent pitot incident was in the very late 60's in Gaydon Hangar by one, possibly two, "very unhappy" line mechs.

On the subject of size, the U.S. exchange pilot...R. R ( who carried out, I believe a practice fire drill over Harlech and then had the real thing..after which both left in a successful hurry )...always seemed " a very tight fit"..he was, ahem, quite well built as they say....unlike myself on the three back seat rides I managed during my time at Valley.:ok:

soddim
20th Aug 2011, 15:52
I doubt if the Red Arrows ever described the Gnat as 'twitchy'.

Incidently, when evaluated by CFS prior to acceptance into service, they described it as not easy to fly in formation.

Glad the arrows put CFS back in their box.

Wander00
20th Aug 2011, 16:03
I'll go with the CFS evaluation on formation flying. Nevertheless, the Reds did make it look easy, which was even more depressing. My instructor was ex 111 (I think it was that team) and he made it look SO easy!

XV277
21st Aug 2011, 20:57
The UK's 6 x Gnat F1 fighters were used by the Ministry of Supply as development aircraft, but as far as I'm aware, were never used by the RAF.




One was evaluated (along with a Hunter F6 and a Jet Provost) as a Venom replacement for the Middle East. That was given to the Hunter FGA9.

Of course, the Indians used quite a few.

dmussen
22nd Aug 2011, 03:27
Great stories. I adore this little beauty. I was on 75 course at Valley. Many of our instructors were ex-74 Frightning jocks and they were great folk to be around and to fly with.
Loved that shot going round the corner in the A5 pass and the one with South Stack light in the background.
I too was fooled by my instructor on a roller at Mona in unlock. Boy did we go up when I retracted the gear.
My proudest moment at Valley was winning the 75 aeros comp.
The aircraft I flew was XP 502 which was the first production Gnat to enter service with the RAF.
It is now on static display at Delta Jets in Kemble.
To be posted to Victor Tankers was a great disapointment but that is another story.

Per Ardua Ad Loungebar.

neilf92
22nd Aug 2011, 10:23
Could'nt resist another dabble with Photoshop using a couple of landscape photos I took while watching Hawks at the Ogwen corner . Added a couple of shots of a 1/72nd Gnat and added wing tanks (roughly).
I guess it would have looked something like this around 1964.
Mods - whizz it if inappropriate.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v606/NeilF92/aupsides.jpg

Auster Fan
22nd Aug 2011, 11:56
I believe my flying instructor did a lot of the trials work on the Gnat at Valley....

BOAC
22nd Aug 2011, 12:43
The cockpit issue was thigh length - too long and your kneecaps would disappear on ejection. Formation - a doddle!:rolleyes:

airpolice
22nd Aug 2011, 14:41
I was so skinny when I did my first Gnat trip that we could not get the seat straps to tighten on my shoulders. The Squiffer SNCO sent me back to the block to get my wooly pooly so that I had a wee bit more padding as he thought that on ejection I could slip out of the seat harness.

Last week I found it tricky trying to get the seatbelt on a PA28 to reach all the way round me. I was six and a half stone when I went to Valley and I am now 118 Kilos. I don't want to do the conversion to stones & pounds, I'd just get upset.

Loki
22nd Aug 2011, 14:44
I found a single seater recently at Cosford....there is also one at Southampton

Here's the Cosford one nestling peacefully under the wing of the Lincoln

http://i91.photobucket.com/albums/k288/loki_021/forafrica/gnatfb.jpg

soddim
22nd Aug 2011, 22:41
In over 30 years flying, including seven fighter types, the only non-martin baker seat I sat on was in the Gnat. I seem to remember a unique safe seat arrangement that replaced the use of safety pins with a simple 'head knocker'. Hard to forget to put the seat to live because it would remind you by hitting the back of your head whenever you put your head up straight. The safety record of the seat was also pretty good as I remember it.

Rallye Driver
23rd Aug 2011, 08:47
A bit of thread drift, but the current centre of Gnat flying is North Weald. Two currently airworthy with two more being restored to flying condition. They were out displaying at the weekend.

Here's G-RORI returning after a sortie earlier in the summer. :ok:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/YakRider/G-RORILanding.jpg

Wander00
23rd Aug 2011, 10:32
There have been some lovely pics, but anyone got anymore -especially low level in Wales - previous Mrs W saw to mine!

dmussen
24th Aug 2011, 02:21
Wander00,
Not low level but somewhere I have a shot of a diamond 16 practicing for a flypast over Birmingham the following day. It's in one of several shoe boxes in a trunk. I'll have a look.

A2QFI
24th Aug 2011, 04:55
I30th December 2004, 23:23

I don't think pitot tube sabotage ever happened at Valley but I found this in a Thread re damage at Airshows,

"30th December 2004, 23:23

A pitot tube incident also happened while 4 x Iraqi Mirage F1s were on their delivery overnight stopover in Greece. A Guard leant on a pitot tube, bent it, then decided to bend the three others so they'd look the same!

Krystal n chips
24th Aug 2011, 05:40
A2..sorry to disappoint you but..the pitot incident did happen at Valley, in the very late 60's and was caused by one, possibly two disgruntled line mechs.

The basis for my assertation is not hearsay, but more to do with the fact I did a tour in Gaydon hangar in the early 70's and we were all made aware of this event.

A2QFI
24th Aug 2011, 07:17
Thanks. My only disappointment, if any, is that professional people could see fit to damage aircraft!

dmussen
24th Aug 2011, 08:10
There was a very bent pitot tube hanging on the wall of "A" flight instructor's crew room in 1973. Perhaps proof positive?

bonajet
25th Aug 2011, 11:25
Hi dmussen - I would love to see the 16 a/c Birmingham flypast photo as I was in the formation - purely as a back seat student from 74! Practice on the 11th Aug 73 and the real thing on the 18th - both with Graham Larke, our RCAF exchange instructor.

mike rondot
25th Aug 2011, 13:21
Al B-H and Roy Lawrence, 48 course with one of the first red/white jets at Valley during August 1969.http://i1188.photobucket.com/albums/z409/5dilly/48cse-1.jpg

1.3VStall
25th Aug 2011, 13:50
Good Lord! B-H was never that young was he?

A A Gruntpuddock
25th Aug 2011, 16:36
As a teenager I remember seeing one of the single seaters at Leuchars.

Not only was it tiny in comparison with the Meteors, but it was the first aircraft where I was able to look into the cockpit whilst still standing on the tarmac.

Looked very cramped inside but I always loved the Gnat since then.

Ah, the days when you could actually wander round the planes, look up into the wheel wells and bomb bays.

Wander00
25th Aug 2011, 19:28
I must be getting old - I thought they were that colour scheme in '66

Cornish Jack
26th Aug 2011, 13:29
I thought they were that colour scheme in '66
indeed they were - unless my colour perception was faulty too. I was there from 64 to 66 and the only different colour schemes I saw were the Yellowjacks.

airpolice
26th Aug 2011, 14:43
Slouching, hands in pockets, wearing hats out there on the apron, what an example to the troops!:(

BEagle
26th Aug 2011, 16:30
Yes, because they were embryonic fighter pilots, the cream of British youth, who had worked hard enough at school to be photographed in casual pose in front of a Gnat!

I don't think that the anal hats ban came in until several years later?

Although the picture does have a bit of a 'boy band' look to it.....:\

mike rondot
26th Aug 2011, 16:53
Most of them looked like this:
File:Folland Gnat T1 XR 977 46.4 FTS Valley 03.09.67 edited-3.jpg - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Folland_Gnat_T1_XR_977_46.4_FTS_Valley_03.09.67_edited-3.jpg)
IIRC fleet no 48 was one of the first red/white painted Gnats, but I am losing my memory fast.

jindabyne
26th Aug 2011, 19:56
MR ----

Quite correct, as ever, in your research. As for the memory, join the club!

BEagle
26th Aug 2011, 20:29
mike rondot, thanks for that photo! I flew my first Gnat solo in XR977 some 8 years after that photo was taken; of course by then it was in 'raspberry ripple' colours.

Great times!

nigeleyre
16th Dec 2013, 13:41
Does anyone know what they thigh length measurement was and how it should be measured? I'm looking at buying a Gnat but don't want to lose my legs!

dmussen
17th Dec 2013, 01:45
Wander00,
No luck with the photos yet. I was in the back seat of yellow1.
On the Sunday of the actual flypast we went U/S on trying to start up. A frenzied sprint for the reserve, which was at the far end of the flightline, was followed by start up and taxi as considerable speed and then playing catch-up over Menai Straights .
We caught yellow section over that long lake south of Snowdon and finally got "in" as the formation was turning in for the flypast.
On returning to Valley we were the first section to break from zeroish feet. What a way to spend a Sunday. The ensuing party was a fitting end to a wonderful day.

Per Ardua Ad Louhgebar.,
D

Out Of Trim
17th Dec 2013, 01:56
After viewing some of the superb Gnat images on this thread, I realised this wing would be much better on the new Cessna Scorpion! :ok:

Wander00
17th Dec 2013, 08:24
Went to the RAFA Sud Ouest Christmas lunch near Cognac last week, and met a former Valley QFI and early Reds team member, T.. N..... Also, a day later suddenly unearthed my Red Arrows 25th Anniversary "silver" mini salver.


ISTR the Gnats were red and white in first half of 66 when I was a stude - but then I am not sure what I had for breakfast. Hmm, "breakfast", what is that..........?

rlsbutler
17th Dec 2013, 16:49
@nigeleyre

I was trained on the Meteor because my thigh length was too great for the Vampire T11.

I flew the Gnat front and back at Little Rissington without the subject being brought up.

Dave Wilson
18th Dec 2013, 13:34
Last week I found it tricky trying to get the seatbelt on a PA28 to reach all the way round me. I was six and a half stone when I went to Valley and I am now 118 Kilos.

I hate it when some skinny bugger has been flying before me and you have to let the belt wayyyy out to get it on. At least in the 28 you can move the seat back and forwards with the lap strap done up. How many times have you climbed into a Cessna with the seat full back, done the straps up and then tried to move forward? Then undo them all and start again...

I remember the Gnats at Cosford when I was there as an instructor. We used to taxi them around so that the studes could get some marshalling practise in. Not the biggest of cockpits as I remember and it had that 'door bell' chime warning sound which always sounded very dainty to me. Should have been a great klaxon sound blaring away. The anoraks kicked up a fuss when we painted out the names of the pilots on the side and put the instructors' names up for a lark...:)

Trumpet_trousers
18th Dec 2013, 14:59
I remember the Gnats at Cosford when I was there as an instructor. We used to taxi them around so that the studes could get some marshalling practise in. Not the biggest of cockpits as I remember and it had that 'door bell' chime warning sound which always sounded very dainty to me. Should have been a great klaxon sound blaring away. The anoraks kicked up a fuss when we painted out the names of the pilots on the side and put the instructors' names up for a lark...

ah yes, bats in hand, Instructors/wannabee pilots following your EVERY instruction, up to the point where it was dangerous to continue, which usually meant a few "father like" words from the Instructor stood beside you! Also sitting in the back of the Gnat doing engine runs, whilst your oppo was "controlling" it from outside...happy days!

India Four Two
24th Mar 2014, 15:01
Then undo them all and start again...

Dave,

Been there, done that! However, I've always felt more comfortable with the idea of the lap straps being attached to the floor in a Cessna rather than attached to the seat in a Piper.

Wander00
24th Mar 2014, 15:11
Bah humbug. You bring this thread up again and there it is, dust in the air again...................

Rallye Driver
24th Mar 2014, 23:24
A couple more recent pictures of the North Weald Gnats

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/YakRider/G-MOURTakeOff-1000_zpse27a6894.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v165/YakRider/G-RORITakeOff-1000_zps85558b1b.jpg

RD :ok:

Wander00
25th Mar 2014, 07:41
Pure magic. Many thanks

Madbob
25th Mar 2014, 08:44
Out of curiosity, were the tanks on the Gnat fixed "slipper" tanks or true "drop" tanks?

They don't have any fins at the back end to prevent tumbling which I associate with proper drop tanks. I do know :ok: that when the Hawk entered service the legs it had compared to the Gnat was huge, such that the Hawk didn't give the studes a true awareness of fuel burn, even at low level, and so never needed drop tanks unless on a long ferry flight.

MB

BEagle
25th Mar 2014, 12:09
The Gnat external tanks were simple slipper tanks and could not be jettisoned in flight. Each tank only held about 525 lb of fuel though!

LowObservable
25th Mar 2014, 12:32
The real one looks just a bit bigger than the one I had... but only a bit.
http://www.oldmodelkits.com/jpegs/Air%20T3%20Gnat%20Bagged.JPG

A A Gruntpuddock
25th Mar 2014, 13:07
Thought one of the shots at the start of this thread looked familiar -

http://www.flickr.com/photos/73571158@N00/698616499/in/set-72157621593778810http://i1158.photobucket.com/albums/p616/AAGruntpuddock/Graphic1-1.jpg (http://www.flickr.com/photos/73571158@N00/698616499/)

http://www.flickr.com/photos/73571158@N00/698616499/in/set-72157621593778810

gzornenplatz
25th Mar 2014, 14:48
The reason the Red's Gnats weren't twitchy was because they had the Mark 4 Hobson unit with reduced sensitivity unlike the valley Gnats which had the Mark 5.

Wander00
25th Mar 2014, 15:05
Explains my crap formation flying then!

spannerless
2nd Jun 2016, 07:34
Hi all,

Long shot!

We're currently trying to help a gentleman set up an Orpheus Engine and he seems to have got himself in a bit of a pickle to say the least!
We've been helping part time from a manufacturers in kind point of view however what it really needs is an entrepreneur who owns say a Gnat and has the engine/airframe set up manuals and would be king enough to scan in a page or a so!

It’s for a worthy project – Project Blue bird!

Regards
Spannerless:ok:

whatsinaname at hotmail co uk

taxydual
2nd Jun 2016, 09:08
Maybe worth a look.

Download Aircraft Engines Manuals - Bristol / Bristol Siddeley Aero-Engines - Aircraft Reports - Aircraft Helicopter Engines Propellers Manuals Blueprints Publications (http://www.aircraft-reports.com/bristol-bristol-siddeley-aero-engines/)