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View Full Version : ATPL, 14 groundschool exams, do you have to sit them again??


PilotJames
7th Aug 2011, 17:09
Hey there guys; I have a quick question about the 14 subjects sat in order to gain an ATPL. Do you only have to sit the exams once as long as you keep your licence current, i.e. if you are an airline pilot you only have to take the exams once in your lifetime?

Thank you in advance

VJW
7th Aug 2011, 20:18
Sure this is a question in the ATPL Air Law exam, but from Lasors:

The holder of a valid JAR-FCL CPL(A)/IR with JAR-FCL ATPL Theory credit (ie someone who passed the JAR ATPL theory prior to completing the JAR CPL/IR course) will be credited the JAR-FCL ATPL(A) Theoretical knowledge examination for a period of 7 years from the last validity date of the IR(A) entered in the CPL(A).

Dora6
8th Aug 2011, 15:14
In short, that means yes! Once you've passed all 14 exams and got your cpl/ir, theres no need to ever return to them. Especially if your flying with an airline and stay current.

FlyingDumbells
8th Aug 2011, 18:57
Once you get a frozen ATPL would you need to unlock it in a certain amount of time or face having to redo the 14 exams again?

Dora6
9th Aug 2011, 10:58
Once you have a frozen atpl or unfrozen for that matter, you NEVER need to do the 14 exams again.

Dora6
9th Aug 2011, 11:00
Also you do not need to unlock the frozen atpl in a certain amount of time. You just need to keep current i.e renew the IR, Medical and do the min hours..

VJW
9th Aug 2011, 13:42
Dora sorry you're wrong.

If you get a CPL/IR having passed the ATPL exams and do NOT get an airline job, and cannot afford to renew your IR, then 7 years from the date of expiry of the most recent IR - then your ATPL theory exams expire. Of course you'd hold the CPL and expired IR, but to obtain an ATPL in the future, among other things, you'd need to redo all 14 ATPL exams.

Saying that once you pass the exams you NEVER need to do them again, is totally wrong!

usualguy
9th Aug 2011, 20:09
that' s my case, I have a frozen ATP, 320 rating and multi engine license IR for single pilot.

my 320 and muti engine are valid for 6 years after last check.
still need to be current every year if you want fly.

If I let my 320 expired, I can still renew the multi engine which cost less , and I will be good for 6 years.If I don't renew anything after 6 years , I have another year to renew my expired multi engine but the course could be longer and more expensive .

If I still do nothing after 7 years, everything is expired, and I need to resit the 14 exams, pass the multi engine to get IR and pass the 320 course if i want a job on the 320. Total cost: 50'000-70'000 euro

and I can tell you, spend more money or give up! because I am not sure I will find a job in Europe and I am not motivated anymore.

I have to know where I can renew the 320, and at what cost?

IO540
10th Aug 2011, 08:42
I gather that if you fly in the military for say 10 years, you lose the exam passes.

What happens if you say get a job with a US airline, so you don't exercise your JAA ATPL privileges for 10 years?

I believe the CAA supports that option but I am not so sure this is common across JAA, especially thinking of Germany.

VJW
10th Aug 2011, 09:58
HI IO540- long time no see.

Any ICAO IR is suitable for keeping these exams 'banked.' Same with Military flying, although can't remember off hand what documents the CAA would need to see from the military pilot as evidence they've had their military IR privileges valid within the last 7 years.

IO540
10th Aug 2011, 10:08
I asked because I met a number of military pilots during my ground school time, who were re-doing all the theory....

Any ICAO IR is suitable for keeping these exams 'banked.'

Would you have a ref for that? I am sure you are right for the UK CAA.

mad_jock
10th Aug 2011, 11:37
Its in lasors

And also JAR FCL. Might change though in the not so distant future.

A SEP SPA IR will do though to keep it valid.

The problem that the mil boys have is that the normal rules for getting the IR training and flight test still apply from the last exam. So if they get sent away for 6 months come back to leave then training then get sent away again etc etc it all to quickly means the 2 years is up. Once they have it there MIL cat will keep them valid. Just like any ICAO IR.

VJW
10th Aug 2011, 13:16
Mad Jock is right.

It is in the IR section E of Lasors for renewal requirements;

"Where less than 7 years have elapsed since the IR(A) expired but IR privileges have been exercised in another category of aircraft (i.e. UK/JAR IR(H)) or under the privileges of an ICAO licence (Aeroplanes and Helicopters) or under a military IR qualification (fixed-wing or rotary), the renewal requirements for the IR(A) will be based on the expiry of that other IR. If more than 7 years have elapsed since the IR(A) expired, no credit will be given for any other IR rating or qualification, and the terms set out below for more than 7 years since expiry shall apply."

IO540
10th Aug 2011, 13:43
LASORS is the stuff delegated under the UK ANO to the CAA. What happens in say Germany?

What exactly does the ICAO IR preserve? AIUI, it preserves all the theory exams, so a BA ATP going to work in the USA for 15 years can come back, do a brush-up etc, and work for BA again. But what if you fly on an ICAO IR (privately, though I do actually have an FAA CPL/IR) for 10 years, during which you have not renewed your JAA IR? Can you renew the JAA IR with just a normal IRE, or is it a fresh new IR flight test (currently with a CAA staff examiner though this is changing)?

Shaft109
10th Aug 2011, 14:29
A slight variation - If I am awarded the CPL but not the IR within 36 months of the last exam pass what happens then?

I currently have to get the IR completed by March 2013, and can't access LASORS at the moment but almost done getting the CPL.

mad_jock
10th Aug 2011, 14:36
Well you would fall foul of your license being out of date, to renew you would need a medical and a class/type valid.

After that its just a normal IRE that does it. It also depends on if the IACO is valid at that point in time if you have to do refresher training or not. There might be some rubbish after 5 years that you need to send your license to the CAA again to get them to put it back on.

The theory stays valid but you also have to jump through the hoops on which ever class/type you have. Which very well might mean you have to jump through hoops to get that back then do your test with an IRE unless its a type then a TRE can do both at the same time.

So its a two stage and two sets of rules which you have to comply with.

I don't have a clue what the new rules are going to be.

The changes with EASA are doing away with Staff examiners who I believe are becoming more of a standards inspection team.

IO540
11th Aug 2011, 07:41
If I am awarded the CPL but not the IR within 36 months of the last exam pass what happens then?I would be suprised if you could do the IR then, without having to re-sit the exams.

mad_jock
11th Aug 2011, 07:44
thats correct IO

But it gets a bit funny after that for Commercial pilots.

You can't just go and do the IR only exams it needs to be the full lot.

Unusual Attitude
12th Aug 2011, 13:40
mad_jock thats correct IO

But it gets a bit funny after that for Commercial pilots.

You can't just go and do the IR only exams it needs to be the full lot

Well not quite, you do get credited VFR comms for having a CPL so just the 13 to sit!! Saves a whole heap of study that does.... :rolleyes:

MJ is correct however, if you just do the 7 IR exams and add an IR to your CPL you end up with a CPL/IR but not a Frozen ATPL which is where it gets interesting.....

VJW
12th Aug 2011, 13:59
Well not quite again. If you have unrestricted FRTOL (ie not VHF only)- I guess that's only 12 to redo! :)

IO540
12th Aug 2011, 15:35
The reason for this mess is that the IR exams are not a subset of the ATPL exams.

They are produced by taking the applicable ATPL exams and then stripping out questions which are not in the IR syllabus.

This is an inexact process, which is why the IR question banks are only about 70-80% a match to the actual exams (I have just finished my IR exams, after working through the entire GTS IR QB, so I know :) ).

One scenario where somebody might sit the IR exams, plus the CPL exams, is to take advantage of the 15-hour ICAO IR to JAA IR conversion route, plus he also wants to be an instructor one day.

But it's an awfully long way round it, and "ATPL theory" is still needed (or is handy) for some non-commercial things e.g. flying a G-reg TBM700/850.

usualguy
12th Aug 2011, 19:41
if I understand correctly it would have been easier to create an IR written test than 14 exams;or ad an exam , IR, and get rid of the IR questions in the 14 written test.
For someone who let his cpl lapsed after 7 years, all he had to do is to pass the written test again and renew his IR SEP.


For the guys who have FAA&JAA, if a pilot go to the USA and do a FAA biennal flight review including IR check with a CFII, does it count for the JAA? or it must be give ny a FAA flight examiner(check cost 400$ plus plane).

what's the new rules with the EASA?

my God , it's complicated!