PPL Privelages vs real life skills...

[DJXL]

Hello, bit of a question here for you. Bear with me.

It is basically to cover what to me is a bit of a grey area between priviliges of a PPL and how far your skills take you in the real world. Here´s a scenario...

I have had a PPL for a couple of years and have logged 75 hours ish total time. However, I´ve logged far more on Microsoft Flight Simulator practising instrument approaches etc in 747s and flying IFR using charts and approach plates etc. I even had a go in a 747 classic sim once and managed to deck the beast at Kai Tak in visibility I wouldn´t even drive in. Been flying with people who have far more PPL add-ons than I will probably ever have and learnt a lot from all that.

Now, if I was flying around somewhere out of a regional airport with an ILS etc and the weather closed in, would I be able to ask approach for vectors for the ILS even though I only have a basic PPL and just wanted to get out of the cack and onto the ground? I know I can fly an ILS and have kept an eye on it on final whilst VFR just to see if I could do it in real life as well as on the sim. Could I do it without being reprimanded if it saved a long diversion to remain VMC? I know that perhaps the flying club would have something to say about it but would the tower or anyone else question it and slap me on the back of the hand for it?

Just wondering where I stand in case something like this were to happen. If I could quite happily land it in conditions less than VMC would I be allowed to? Or at least would I be allowed to have a go and if necessary divert after that? See what I mean? Do I really need a piece of paper saying I´m allowed to do it if I can do it if I have to?

Any input would help a lot. I would just like to hear from folk who know an answer to this question not from people who are going to moan or question my airmanship or skills ("Why are you going flying on a day like this?" or "Didn´t you check the weather before you went out, tut" etc).

Cheers

DJXL

[englishal]

You could request the ILS so long as you remain VFR. Or if vis was bad but you were still VFR you could also request a Surveillance Radar Approach...basically they vector you to final...If however the weather closed in and you were in IMC, then that would constitute an emergency / urgency (for basic PPL holder) and I'm sure that ATC would do anything possible to help, ie. allowing the ILS approach. There would however be a whole world of s**t waiting for you on the ground and I personnaly wouldn't like to be in your shoes !

You should go up with an instructor sometime and practice real approaches to see how they differ from FS. Although FS is quite good, it doesn't prepare you for many of the 'feelings' you get while in IMC or under the hood....eg the kinsthetic (or whatever) senses which tell you you're turning when you're not etc.

[Code Blue]

A cautionary note:

At around your stage of flying, boredom or a need for further experiences sets in. A quick bit of IMC and "following the needles" seems like a good solution.

The commonest cause of a fatal GA crash in N America is unplanned flight into IMC. Whilst most of the pilots who end up in smoking holes are non-Instrument Rated, an embarrassingly large number have (had) an IR but their excursion into IMC was UNPLANNED. It bit them and their passengers.

If you want to fly an ILS then plan it before. That means instruction +\- Instrument Rating yourself. As mentioned above, a quick demonstration of "the leans" or other kinesthetic aberrations should show you what IMC can be like. If you don't think this through and plan, then statistically you're likely to shorten your flying career.

I'm sorry if you didn't want to hear this, but superior airmanship and sensible decision making will go a long way to keep you from having to use your (?superior) MSFS skills.

Keep safe
CB

[PPRuNe Dispatcher]

Sounds like time to get an IMC rating... or increase your life insurance. It'll be needed to pay for the wrecked aeroplane etc. as a basic PPL deliberately flying into IMC probably won't be covered by the aircraft insurance.

So far I've logged 30 minutes actual IMC and it's a lot harder than flight simulator.

--Mik

[ 27 November 2001: Message edited by: PPRuNe Dispatcher ]

[DJXL]

Ta for the replies folks.

I´ve logged a bit of time in cloud with instructors in the past and have had the "think you´re turning when you´re not" thing demonstrated and I am aware of the dangers of flying about in crappy weather etc so it is quite interesting to see where I stand on such an issue.

Obviously I´d think twice about pulling off such a stunt anyway but if weather just below VMC and not completely crappy you never know.

Still, let´s hope it never happens eh!

Cheers

[NextLeftAndCallGround]

The straightforward answer is that it is the pilot's responsibility to fly within the privilidges of his/her licence and ratings. ATC have no interest in the pilot qualifications which is why you'll get asked 'do you want a VFR or IFR clearance' not 'do you have an IMC rating or an Instrument Rating'. It's the pilot's job to know what sort of clearance can be accepted.

Your question was could you do it without having a welcoming committee waiting for you when you land - i.e. 'get away with it'. Although I'm in no way advocating you ever try it the answer is yes if you sound like you know what you're doing, fly as cleared and the weather is above the absolute minimum for the approach. In these circumstances you will not give anyone any cause to question whether you are flying beyond the privilidges of your licence.

Do bear in mind that if you do try it, it may not be a simple case of vectors to the ILS - can you fly a hold if it forms part of your clearance?

The absolute minima thing will only be relevant in very poor conditions. If you request to fly an approach in conditionsthat are below the minima that any aircraft should be able to accept (even the Boeings and Airbuses) ATC will give you a warning that you will be reported - they won't stop you doing it but I think the CAA always takes a very close look at these reports.

Finally, having said all of that, if you genuinely find yourself in unexpected deteriorating weather conditions and with your options disappearing - own up to ATC and ask for help. ATC will always do everything they can to help.

As Code Blue points out, people regularly kill themselves by flying into poor weather (no doubt usually thinking OK, they didn't expect it, but they've managed it before for short periods so it'll be alright). From the controllers perspective, I'd rather you didn't do it on my watch. I hate paperwork.

[englishal]

I thought that one of the biggest causes of GA accidents in the US was CFIT (controlled flight into terrain), whereby a pilot, normally instrument rated, continues an approach when he or she should have gone missed. This can be caused by many things, for example the "get this baby on the ground at all costs" attitude or a loss of situational awareness, for example mistaking the FAF or whatever....I've seen pilots dial in a VOR of freq 112.4 instead of the ILS of a nearby airport with freq 112.2. Can you imagine continuing an ILS, all be it with GS out, with the wrong freq set? Into the mountain for sure !!!

[Code Blue]

englishal:

The biggest cause of fatal commercial/air carrier accidents is CFIT (sources NTSB database & Flight Safety Foundation).

For GA other than above it seems 17% of fatalities in GA are from CFIT (FAA web site). If you read the reports from NTSB & TSB they can be difficult to separate loss of control (commonest cause of fatalities -FAA again), from CFIT unless the wreckage & damage paths are clear. Both have in common the fact that they occur when pilots fly unplanned into IMC. Weather is cited as the commonest identifiable factor in lethal accidents (FAA, TSB).

For 75 Hour PPLs which way you get into the ground may be academic and there certainly is room in the data to argue over which final path these individuals take into their smoking holes.

The main message I was trying to get over has been made - Stay out of cloud unless you have the necessary current experience & training.

Rgds
CB
edited 'cos I found some actual figures

[ 28 November 2001: Message edited by: Code Blue ]

[GroundBound]

I would strongly recommend that you don't do this - your PPL allows you to fly VFR only! If you don't have an IMC (or IFR) rating then you cannot fly in IMC (out of sight of the surface, or near/in cloud). If you think you can, then take the IMC test and prove you are capable!

You will be breaking the law and may/will/should be prosecuted. You may also constitute a danger to others (e.g. on the ground, as you spin onto the houses 3 miles short of the threshold).

Would you expect someone without a licence to fly a plane just because (s)he has 100 hours on MS-Sim? The same applies to Instrument Flying - if you wanna do it you gotta pass the exams, which are more than just the 15 hours Instrument Flying.

If your home-base/destination is below VFR limits then you have to divert. The only "excuse" would be if you become surrounded by bad weather and have no reasonable alternative - but that would call into question your "airmanship" in the first place.

Fly by the rules - PPL is VFR, or get the IMC.

[jtr]

I have about 3000 hrs in widebodies flying in averagely crappy weather (Asia) The thought of hopping in a bug smasher and flying IFR puts the fear of god into me. Trat it with the respect it deserves!null (http://null)

[Max Angle]

IMC conditions are no place for someone who is not trained for them and is not flying an a/c equipped for it. History shows that if you end up needing to fly in IMC and shoot an instrument approach without any training your chances are slim of pulling it off. IF you end up that situation well then you will have to decide what is the best course of action, that's what being the commander is all about. Best not to get caught in the first place though, as someone said "a superior pilot is one who uses superior judgement to avoid having to use superior skill". Safe flying.

[Chilli Monster]

DJXL

MS Flight Sim - yes, that'll do you a lot of good. You don't get bounced, you don't have your senses playing tricks on you, you don't get disorientated, you don't sweat when it all goes wrong and you don't panic likewise.

Get yourself an IMC or IR before you even consider flying an ILS in anger. Not only would you be flying outside the privileges of your licence otherwise but you're asking to become a 'smoking hole'. I don't mind being the radar controller that helps you out of a spot, but I don't want to be the one who listens to your screams as you plummet into the ground with the transmit switch still open and then have to attend your inquest afterwards :rolleyes:

CM

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

DJXL, in May 1988 I had the honour of spending a couple of days guarding bits of Harrier and pilot that were evenly spread over a couple of fields and a canal just outside RAF Gutersloh. This chap had about 750hrs under his belt, was IFR trained and an exceptionally good friend to all who had the pleasure of knowing him. His failing, he became disorientated in cloud a matter of seconds after departure and popped-out inverted at 800ft in a steep dive.

Please, do not become another statistic. Plan ahead and don't get yourself into such a postion.

[DJXL]

Ok folks, seem to have been a bit of confusion here. Thanks for the replies but remember I am not daft and that I never said I was going to do it. I like to live as much as the next person. The line between explaining an answer and questioning my (excellent, thankyou very much) airmanship has been crossed a couple of times but ta for clearing it up.

Edited for appaling grammar...

[ 29 November 2001: Message edited by: DJXL ]

[Chilli Monster]

WBS

I remember the accident well - I worked in the COC at the time. We might know each other :cool:

CM

[ 29 November 2001: Message edited by: Chilli Monster ]

[Whipping Boy's SATCO]

CM, can you remember a teenage plt off? Not many around at the time.

[olivasnooze]

Its been said before, lack of preparation will kill you.
If the wx goes bad, how bad is it?
Is it close to minima?
Will you get in?
What if the ILS falls over? Can you fly a non precision approach?
What if your radio fails? More likely than the radar failing, same result, no vectors and what do I do now?
Did the notams get checked for IFR stuff?
Did the notams & wx get checked for a now IFR alternate?
How do you fly a missed approach, without comms?
Just some questions to consider, IFR is more than following needles.
Prevention is the key, not certified don't do it.
Invariably when sh*t happens, its all over the place.