Aircrew side arms

[NURSE]

I'm trying to work out what walther pistol was issued to RAF Fast Jet pilots and have been told Walther PP & PPK by different sources?

Anyone able to enlighten?

[Halton Brat]

I think it wash a PPK, Mish Moneypenny.

Girly gun; should have issued an 1848 .44 Colt Dragoon. Jolly good for scaring people, including the firer........

Anyway, most people who are not in current practice with a pistol could not hit a cow's ar$e with a banjo.

HB

[HTB]

Oddly enough, the FJ Navs were allowed to carry a pistol too...

I think the last model carried was the PP (Polizei Pistole - although the difference between that and the PPK were not great).

The predecessor - Browning 9mm - was much better, if no more accurate in average aircrew hands; at least it was hefty enough to smack someone around the head and leave a dent. The range was also far superior- you could fire a pencil about 10-15 feet, provided that you had reassembled it with all the bits that flew out during "familiarisation" on exercises (I think the pencils with earasers on the end were a little more stable that those without).

Mr B

[Halton Brat]

Ah yes, the Browning 9mm. Super tool. Manageable recoil for a quick double-tap, pointable, shootable, big mag capacity (even bigger with extended mag).

I have seen one with a wooden holster/stock & adjustable sights; just the thing for the cats that like to leave a deposit on my lawn, methinks.

In my shooting days, I once had a pop with a Colt .45 semi-auto pistol, courtesy of the US Marines. This is for buffalo hunting or some similar pastime; too much gun.

HB

[Willard Whyte]

...too much gun.

Not sure that's possible!

[rogerk]

Yes the Browning 9mm was great unless you happened to be a AAC Scout pilot.

The holster used to snag on the seat height lever and you ended up looking at the bottom of the instrument panel !!

Bit scary if you happened in the last seconds of landing :D:D:D

[downsizer]

PP, not PPK.....

Sigs now for most. Execpt for Herc aircrew, who still have the Browning. Talk about gun envy, especially from certain people. they fail to realise that the browing is actually the better pistol, sigs are plasticcy, high maintenance and not suited to abuse.

For those that are interested all service pistols are to be replaced shortly as the LWIPT is currently deciding on the winner of its service pistol replacement competition...:8

[Could be the last?]

I thought crews were now using Sig Sauers, due to the maintenance cost of the Browning?

[HTB]

HB

Variable sights? I didn't know the Browning had sights. Not that they would be much use anyway; I used shut my eyes at the point of trigger squeeze and hope that big fat 9mm thingy would end up somewhere in the butts.

Pencil shooting was far safer.

Mr B

[downsizer]

Nothing to do with maintenance cost. It was to due to the perception that the browning was too big for a FJ cockpit!

[HTB]

A bit like some of the crews that used to cary it...

Mr B

[Could be the last?]

Ds,

The SS is more or less the same size as the Browning, if not slightly bulkier!

[downsizer]

Yep. But it's a new and shiney toy for an element of the RAF that has/had money to spend. Note I said perception that it was too big!

[HTB]

Can I ask just how useful the sidearm was for the the two Johnnies after they ejected in GW I and found themselves amid the Iraqi defenders?

"Remember, John..."

"Yes, John..."

"Save the last round for yourself..."

Better still, offer it up as a souvenir. Or throw it at them - more chance of hitting something and inflicting damage.

Mr B

[Could be the last?]

Ds,

Perception noted; however, it is the Small Arms IPT ( or whatever it is now called), which procure the weapon for the 'Defence Requirement'. It is cost prohibitive to have an aircrew specific weapon; therefore we get what we're given! Hence the phasing out of the Browning and the introduction of the SS.

[A2QFI]

Got a Browning into a Jag cockpit no problems; mind you I was less bulky myself then!

[downsizer]

it is the Small Arms IPT ( or whatever it is now called), which procure the weapon for the 'Defence Requirement'

Who writes the requirement? Who skewed it towards a Sig?

Anyways a moot point as Sigs aren't replaceing all aircrew weapons. The winner of the current procurement for a future pistol will. About 8 different pizzles in the running....

[Halton Brat]

I would yet again most ardently recommend the 1848 .44 Colt Dragoon, if for no other reason than its' entertainment factor..........

HB

[Dan Winterland]

The Walther came in after a coupe of Falklands war ejectees left them behind after the weight of the Browning broke the weedy strap of the holster. Someone though it better to buy new guns than buy stronger holsters. The first unit to get the James Bond toy was 1 Sqn. They all turned up to the range to do thier training wearing DJs :rolleyes:

[BEagle]

It will no doubt come as a surprise to today's sandaholic aircrew that we 'cold warriors' weren't actually issued with gats which required you to shove the ammuntion in from the far end:

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/yepiftole-1.jpg

Browing 9 mill was fine - and excellent fun if you sneaked a few extra springs and oily bits of black metal into some unsuspecting mate's pile of gun parts during annual playtime with the long-suffering Stn Rocks.

Personally, I'd go with Mr Vinnie Jones (aka Bullet Tooth Tony):

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/DE_MattBlack.jpg

"...and the fact that I've got "Desert Eagle point-five-oh" written on the side of my gun should precipitate your balls into shrinking, along with your presence. Now … f**k off!"

Just don't fire it like this:

z0Nwvr2fs7M&feature=related

[taxydual]

Finningley 1976.

The V-Force dispersed and 8 Vulcans' pitched up at FY.

10 crews (2 by MT) all locked in the secret Briefing Room planning their daring do's.

After the briefing, the crews scrambled to their aircraft.

Leaving (the then) SAC Taxydual to find 5 aircrew Browning gats under the planning desks.

Whoops.

[Peter Carter]

Min/Maxival - long periods of inactivity in the PBF - bored with shooting pen tops at each other (tops a perfect 9mm); competition to see how long you can make your Browning when you re-assemble; must be over 2ft but wobbles a lot.

[Dengue_Dude]

On one of the first Minivals at Lyneham, we were given our Brownings sealed in stiff poly-bag with strict instructions not to open it.

I think it was Colin Low or Al Otton (I am willing to be corrected) that managed to field strip it without opening the bag - class!

What's French for panache . . . ?

[ExAscoteer]

They fail to realise that the Browning is actually the better pistol, Sigs are plasticy, high maintenance and not suited to abuse.RUBBISH!

Having owned both a Browning MkIII as well as a SiG Saur P226, and having shot at high levels of competition (both 'Service Pistol' as well as 'Practical Pistol'), the Sig was far more accurate, as well as far better made, and far more reliable.

A friend of mine who had only ever shot revolvers was popping in 1"-2" groups at 25m with my SiG first time out.




Now, if you had said Glocks are plasticy I might have agreed.....

[Wander00]

Taceval - June 81 at that fighter station on a hill just south of the Humber. Team arrives not at 00silly, but lunchtime. STO Team leader went on to (much) higher things, but had arrived determined to wring the place out. Hands Sterling SMG to my OC Admin - lovely chap, but not much bothered with weaponry. Can you strip and reassemble this please says soon to be Scottish Gp Capt. OC Handbrake House turns the thing over a couple of times, replies "No" and gives to me. "You were in the TA", he says, you can do it". One of the quickest and best bits of delegation I ever saw.

[Halton Brat]

I was about to start 'chopsing off' about the handgun ban in the UK, imposed in the wake of the 1996 Dunblane Massacre of the Innocents.

I have just read the Wiki account of this dreadful event to re-acquaint myself with the details; I now feel physically sick.

I have a 5yr-old grandson; the 16 children shot were this age. They would have now been 20yr-old adults. Their brave lady teacher was also killed by Hamilton. Apologies for the most appalling thread drift, but I'm feeling a bit tender.

Anybody care to discuss?

HB (ex-shooter)

[Stu666]

HB, I understand why you have brought this up and I think you were right to do so, even if it is thread drift. What happened doesn't bear thinking about and I only hope they were too young to understand what was going on.

I've often wondered what became of those tasked with cleaning up and investigating after the incident. It must have seriously messed them up, no matter how professional they are.

If the ban has prevented the death of just one child thus far then it has been worth it if you ask me.

[glad rag]

If the ban has prevented the death of just one child thus far then it has been worth it if you ask me. Sure has.

Sri Lankan girl, 5, becomes Britain's youngest gun-crime victim (http://sundaytimes.lk/110403/Timestwo/t2_06.html)

Gangland author Dave Courtney's stepson shot dead - Crime, UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/gangland-author-dave-courtneys-stepson-shot-dead-2306567.html)

Teenager shot dead in south London gangland hit - Crime, UK - The Independent (http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/teenager-shot-dead-in-south-london-gangland-hit-2294003.html)

Latest news, comment and reviews from the Guardian | guardian.co.uk (http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk/gallery/2008/nov/26/rhys-jones-uk-crime#/?picture=340101740&index=16)


It's not the inanimate object but the hand that wields it.

[Sloppy Link]

Sig won on many counts and cost is one of the bigger ones. Another is the fact you only operate the trigger if you want the thing to go bang. Unfortunately, the Browning requires you to operate the trigger as part of the unload drill....which every now and then becomes a loud unload drill and that'll be 28 days pay thank you very much.

[Whenurhappy]

Recently I was invited to take part in a range day with fellow foreign colleagues conducted by my host nation army. I dug out my DPMs, turned up at the excellent range - seats, sun shelters, cafe, nice and relaxed. It wwas also sunny and not raining.

The Famil consisted of this with the rifle (in heavily accented Engrish):

"This is the sharp end, the blunt end, cocking lever, safety catch and selector, magazine catch and optical sight. OK? Let's shoot."

The Pistol famil was even shorter (a lovely HK but with a massive trigger pull in double action) - again in heavily accented Engrish:

''Has you shot pistol before?" "Yes". "Here's magazine hit target when they pop [up]".

For once I wasn't worried about fluffing the drills and was able to concentrate on the shooting, winning a naff lanyard for my troubles - to join the box of station shields, tankards, framed pictures of long-withdrawn aircraft that sits, hmm, under the stairs I think?

[Ali Barber]

PP was for aircrew. James Bond used the PPK. My go with the PP on the range, the bullet didn't go through the cardboard target! I'm told that in Goose Green it was no longer carried as a survival (anti-grizzly bear) weapon as required by law. Instead, you were given a letter explaing to the Sherrif why you weren't carrying a gun while off road!

[dallas]

Grizzlies in Goose Green? That must have been a loooong time ago. :E

[barnstormer1968]

Quote:
They fail to realise that the Browning is actually the better pistol, Sigs are plasticy, high maintenance and not suited to abuse.
RUBBISH!

Having owned both a Browning MkIII as well as a SiG Saur P226, and having shot at high levels of competition (both 'Service Pistol' as well as 'Practical Pistol'), the Sig was far more accurate, as well as far better made, and far more reliable.

A friend of mine who had only ever shot revolvers was popping in 1"-2" groups at 25m with my SiG first time out.




Now, if you had said Glocks are plasticy I might have agreed.....

Ex Ascoteer. It may be worth remembering that most of the folks here barely know one end of a pistol from the other, so may not appreciate just what a wonderful weapon the Sig is.

I find it odd that aircrew complained that they had a 'girls gun', yet still slate the weapon the SAS/SBS chose to replace the Browning with as no good!

[Dengue_Dude]

I fired a fair few rounds through both the 9mm and 10mm Glock and I must admit they do come across as a bit plasticy (is that a word?).

But they carry a LOT of ammo, 'quantity has a quality all of its own' etc.

If Hereford chose the Sig, I would reckon it must have advantages over the ubiquitous Browning.

Mind you, for loudness - the .357 Magnum frightened me fartless when I fired that after the Glocks!!

What else do you do when on standby in Orlando for a week . . . (other than Hooters of course ;o)

[TurbineTooHot]

The Sig's big advantage over the Browning is its double action and no safety, just a de-cocking lever. This means you can leave one up the spout, de-cocked, in the holster and then draw and fire without messing with the slider.

Great for a quick shoot. Turning into the new side arm for all I believe.

Now then, fairs fair, the Walther PP, something in a 7.68mm, 10 rounds of zero stopping power. Rubbish, but the idea was cap the nearest bad guy with a decent rifle and take that, or place barrel on temple.....nuff said.

We got hold of a bunch of P226s on the back of a UOR iirc, but there maybe a bulk purchase going on. Still, decent gat with plenty stopping power.

[downsizer]

Turning into the new side arm for all I believe.

Not unless it wins the current procurement contest it wont be, it is one of a number of options.

We got hold of a bunch of P226s on the back of a UOR iirc, but there maybe a bulk purchase going on.

First part is correct, second isn't, see above.

Now then, fairs fair, the Walther PP, something in a 7.68mm,

7.65 actually :8

[larssnowpharter]

In my shooting days, I once had a pop with a Colt .45 semi-auto pistol, courtesy of the US Marines. This is for buffalo hunting or some similar pastime; too much gun.

There ain't no such thing as too much gun!

I assume your reference is to the legendary M 1911. It was designed/selected not for buffalo hunting but with the intent of stopping and killing Moro warriors during the Philippine/American War. The US Army had found out to its cost that its tried and trusted 38 revolver was not enough gun for the job.

One suspects the Colt may well be better at actually doing some damage that these modern Sigs and PPK things.

[Al R]

The Walther PP (PPK) was made available to the military by the Diplomatic Protection Group after one jammed whilst someone attempted to kidnap Princess Anne in 1974. It was later suggested that the problem was user generated.

Apparantly..

[Fareastdriver]

When I flew Pumas in Ireland in the seventies we used to carry a personal weapon. My experiences with the 9mm Browning proved that I could not hit a aircraft hanger even if I was inside it. I then carried a SLR stacked in the cockpit behind me with two magazines holding twenty rounds each. The theory was that if I was deposited into bandit country the noise from the first round would be more than sufficient to keep any enthusiastic Provos at a safe distance. I was comfortable with this because in a previous life I had served in the Rhodesian Army as a sqaddie so I was taught to blow the drawing pins through the target at two hundred yards with various rifles.

One day we had to pick up a Navy diver suffering from the bends in Loch Erne and take him Edinburgh. This involved a low level flight through Glasgow and the central belt. We carried on to Leuchers and night stop because we had been flying all day. We arrived at about 18.00 hrs and when the aircraft had been tidied I asked for the duty armourer to take custody of our personal weapons for the night. Not a difficult question, one would think, at a first line Defence of the Realm fighter station.

There wasn't one. The only armourer was for missiles and sparky things like that; nobody to handle shooters. Eventually the line chief said he would lock them up in a cupboard for us but first he wanted to know how much ammo we had. I showed hin the magazines and pressed on the top round to show that they were full with twenty. He did not understand this so I had to unload both the magazines on the table through the breech. As I had mentioned before I was used to handling rifles and light machine guns but if I was the minimum trained average RAF person there would have been no doubt that one of the rounds would have gone off. The expressions on the other occupants of the room were a joy to behold and for some reason he did not require my co-pilot and crewman to do the same thing.

Previous to that in Borneo we were issued with a Smith & Wesson .38 revolver and a small cardboard box with twelve rounds dating from 1944. In a Forward Operating Base there was a source of a few more rounds and we could use these as target practice. Shooting against a reasonable breeze you could see the bullet en-route. There was unlimited quantities of 9 mm. ammo available from the Gurkhas which was an almost indentical diameter as the .38 but it required a dodge so it would work.

The S & M chamber was designed for rimmed ammo so the 9 mm rimless would just slide forward when the firing pin hit it. The Whirlwind helicopter rotor blade leading edges required a thick black fabric based sticky tape to protect it against erosion. This could be torn into approx 4 mm strips and a few turns would fill the indent and then stack it so that it prevented the round would being pushed forward. This worked a treat! The 9 mm charge had to fire the round and reload as well so the pop was replaced by a bang and the enhanced kick from the gun confirmed it; six rounds into a fuel drum at 50 yards was easy. The only problem was that to unload it one had to swing out the chamber and poke out the cases with a screwdriver as the extractor claws would not grip the sticky tape.

Whether it effected the barrel I do not know. I sent a couple of hundred through it without any problems and when I had finished with it that war was over so it was not required any more.

[just another jocky]

Yep. But it's a new and shiney toy for an element of the RAF that has/had money to spend. Note I said perception that it was too big!

AFAIK the SS P226 weren't purchased for or by the RAF but were surplus from another service who have since moved on to newer pistols.

[Pontius Navigator]

I . . . carried a SLR stacked in the cockpit behind me with two magazines holding twenty rounds each.

Previous to that in Borneo we were issued with a Smith & Wesson .38 revolver and a small cardboard box with twelve rounds dating from 1944.


Ah yes, the S&W and we also had a few Colt .38s too.

Remember one range practice at 10 yards and I cracked at least 4 on target as fast as I could. The marksman next to me managed all 6, each carefully aimed and fired as accurately as possible. I asked him how long it would take a baddie to cover 10 yards?

Later, on the Nimrod, we were eventually issued with Brownings. I asked what the plan was. Were we to shoot ourselves when bobbing about in a dinghy or fire a salvo at a Kresta II as it hove to?

It was supposed to be so that we could guard the aircraft if we diverted. Now a single, or even a double guard, on a Nimrod was not going to cover much with an SLP and 10 rounds. I wrote a case for 4xSMG with 4 mags of 30 - weight would not have been a problem. Like much staff work it was too difficult and got a stiff ignoring.

[Dominoe]

Does anybody out there remember the "amnesty" on 72 Sqn in the late 80`s?

My memory is a bit vague but I recall a certain individual exchanging his sunglasses in stores and forgetting thats where he kept his spare round (just in case he lost one of his issued ones). Nice lady in stores bubbled him.

The preverbial hit the fan and we were all on parade as OC 72 Sqn gave us a proper 5 minute rant. After which a weeks amnesty was declared and a large plastic refuse bin positioned in or near the Crewman Leaders office with very severe warnings issued should anyone be caught with anything illegal after this period.

Apparently after a week there was a fantastic collection of guns, bullets and weaponry inside the bin that would have kept a small army happy. There was even an unconfirmed repoort of an RPG sticking out the top of the bin. Anyone else remember this?

[Avionker]

@ Fareastdriver

He did not understand this so I had to unload both the magazines on the table through the breech.

Why? Why not unload them by hand?

[Ivan Rogov]

PN I wonder how many had similar ideas, I tried quite hard at augmenting the 9mm with a few rifles but it fell on deaf ears. It was amazing how many false reasons were given for it not being possible :*

[Four Types]

From a James Bond website!!

"...the primary difference between the PP and the PPK is the barrel length (the PP's barrel is 5/8" longer)"

Also I was told that the PPK was chrome vice the PP that wasn't?? not sure on that one though!

[downsizer]

PN I wonder how many had similar ideas, I tried quite hard at augmenting the 9mm with a few rifles but it fell on deaf ears. It was amazing how many false reasons were given for it not being possible http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/bah.gif


On what fleet? And what reasons?

[Fortyodd2]

"...the primary difference between the PP and the PPK is the barrel length (the PP's barrel is 5/8" longer)"

Also I was told that the PPK was chrome vice the PP that wasn't?? not sure on that one though!

I say chaps - sorry to butt in, Ex pongo armourer here. The "K" indicates "Kurz" or "Short" Hence MP5K, G3K, etc.

Do carry on.

[GeeRam]

There ain't no such thing as too much gun!

I assume your reference is to the legendary M 1911. It was designed/selected not for buffalo hunting but with the intent of stopping and killing Moro warriors during the Philippine/American War. The US Army had found out to its cost that its tried and trusted 38 revolver was not enough gun for the job.

One suspects the Colt may well be better at actually doing some damage that these modern Sigs and PPK things.

Indeed, even being a 100 years old design, there's still something very special about using a M1911 in .45ACP :ok: (or even in .38 Super ;))

Wish I still had mine :{

[Pontius Navigator]

Downsizer, one clue in my post :)

One reason was we were not scaled for the extra 80 odd SMG and 10,000 rounds of ammo nor the extra weapons and ammo for practice shoots.

No where to store them - despite the presence of an MCL locked doc box secured in the aircraft.

And so on . . .

Ivan Rogov,

With hind sight and increased experience across roles I can see how amateurish we used to be in days gone by. Things were done and accepted but the rationale was never explained. Aircrew arming was a classic. No one ever explained what we were to use the weapons for. It was also, IMHO, a complete nonsense to unload a weapon in doors as in doors was most likely where you were likely to come across inturders (sic :)). At least making safe left the magazine on the weapon.

In the MBF we practised parachute drills every so often (as little as possible) on the AEW we never practised parachute drills even at Mountbatten.

[SASless]

Now when I wuz a wee lad in a land far away....I was issued a Smith and Wesson .38 caliber revolver (model 10 light barrel) as I recall. It was deemed the right weapon for pilots as one could operate it one handed if that all one had functioning after some un-nice event. The fact I could operate, load, cock, and shoot a Colt 1911 .45 cal Pistol with either hand alone was deemed extraneous to the argument.

Being an enterprising young chinook pilot....at times I carried several different weapons along with me. The .38 got relegated to the foot locker, and I found abandoned in various locations a 1911 in .45 Cal, an M-2 carbine in .30 Cal with automatic fire capability, an M-16 in 5.56mm, a Car-15 (stubby M-16), a Remington 870 shotgun in 12 gauge, and for a while even an AK-47 in 7.62.

Generally, it was found if one did not have it secured to your person...at best you had to make a trip back inside the aircraft to retrieve whatever it was you left behind in your haste to be somewhere else.

I actually preferred the Carbine, small, light, 30 round magazine, and the ability to root and toot. At that time the standard magazine for the M-16/Car-15 were 20 round magazines. My second choice was the Colt 1911 but loaded with the then hot loaded hollow pointed bullet combination called a "Super Vel Hollowpoint". That was guarnateed to put big holes in our wee brown skinned neighbors and not just whiz through like Military Ball slugs do. I compromised and carried both the Carbine and 1911.

I shall not go into the story of finding myself within conversation distance of some folks with AK's and all I had on my person was a .25 Caliber Colt Pistol with four bullets.....that perked up my interest in finding a way to be better dressed for such situations. It was almost like showing up in Church wearing a jock strap and smile...very embarrassing!

[ex-fast-jets]

The scene:

1982, Port San Carlos.

Two very brave Harrier GR pilots. One even braver Chinook crew.

Siren indicates air attack.

Leave very warm peat heated room, and leap, without concern for personal safety, into very wet and soggy ditch.

A few minutes later, five blasts on warning siren.

Oh dear, according to brave aircrew up to their knees in cold, wet, muddy water - that's a ground attack.

Why, while I am here, think I??

We all cock our weapons - of various calibres and sizes - and peer nervously to the East - the obvious direction for an Argy ground attack.

Then an army chap walks calmly behind our fortified trench - and tells us that five blasts is the "all clear" signal.

So the scene ends with many aircrew trying to clear their loaded weapons.

Possibly one of the most dangerous moments of the whole war/conflict/event!

So, perhaps better that aircrew are not allowed anywhere near personal weapons. Reduces the possibility of self-inflicted injury!!

[Ivan Rogov]

Downsizer, fixed wing ISR over Afg and Iraq. Weapons were for self-defence if it all went wrong.

[HTB]

FO2 - there's me thinking the "k" was for "kriminell", or "detective"; must brush up on my German (nice little close-quarters weapon for plain clothes polizei).

As for all the other discussion about aircrew sidearms, I still believe that they would never have been used in anger (or if they had, their use would have been nugatory).

Most of could not hit the stationary cardboard target at 25m, let alone a mob of angry, trained armed soldiers advancing rapidly towards our wibbly pink bodies, firing at us. Haende hoch, Kamerad.

Mr B

[rjtjrt]

"Haende hoch, Kamerad"
I wonder if it would have been more "kneel" and then the obvious.
This would be because presumably a Russiam Warsaw Pack advance would have been almost a blitzkrieg rapid advance with captured aircrew so much of a problemto take care of as to be not woth capturing (unless for intelligence purposes).
However I really wouldn't know - just speculating
John

[Dan Winterland]

I was told that the K in PPK meant ''Kompact'', but according to a well known on-line encyclopaedia, it manes ''Kriminalpistoll'' which refers to a model for''detectives'' rather than a pistol produced for criminals! It also mentions ''Kurz'' and also that Adolf Hitler shot himself with his own PPK. So it appears it can be lethal at a range of 3 inches!

Having been a part time pongo before joining the RAF, I was covertly proud of my weapons handing skills and was always of the opinion that the side arms issued to aircrew were going to account for more of their handlers than the enemy. This is borne out by the written account of a pair of well known POWs in GW1 who considered engaging the advancing Iraqis with their SLPs. The decided to surrender, whereupon the first action of the captors was to try one of their Brownings which misfired on first pull of the trigger!

Accuracy is about pratice and familiarity with the weapon. I shot the SLP competitively with some success and could achieve reasonable scores. When I tried the allegedly more accurate USAF issued Beretta, I could hit squat. And for amusement with a previous airline on trips to South Africa, we used to go to the local range and blat away. The only handgun I could achieve any accuracy with was the Browning 9mm. (This is where I witnessed the most dangerous thing in the world. A 19 year old blonde cabin crew with an Uzi!).

As for Dunblane, I'm of the opinion the UK Governemnt is correct. I did a lot of shooting at school and at the age of 18, I had a firearms licence for my own 7.62mm bolt action target rifle. The school club or the club I joined subsequnetly gave no worries, but later I was the OIC shooting at a large RAF station where both military and civilians used to shoot. There are a lot of nutters out there - and gun clubs seem to attract them! I was very worried about a couple of our members - one of which put me down as a reference for his firearms licence application for an M16 rifle (pre Dunblane) without asking me first. I told the Police I considered he wasn't suitable to hold a licence and his response was to threaten to ''take me out'' (I don't think fhe meant for a beer). The very worrying thing was that he was an RAF Officer!

In my opinion, automatic weapons are best left in the hands of the Armed Forces and the Police.

[Dan Winterland]

''He did not understand this so I had to unload both the magazines on the table through the breech.''

''Why? Why not unload them by hand?''



The SLR magazine held 20 rounds. To check it was full, you pushed down on the top round. If the contents only went down a fraction so that there wasn't enough room to load another, it was full. In the Army unit I was a member of, we never filled the magazines to 20, instead only loading 18 rounds. This is because when full of 20, the spring at the bottom of the magazine was compreesed fully and had little springness left. This meant, the first two rounds had little upward pressure making a jam much more likely.

And don't forget to count your shots!

[500N]

Dan Winterland

I think you misunderstood the question.

"''He did not understand this so I had to unload both the magazines on the table through the breech.''

''Why? Why not unload them by hand?''

The key words are "had to unload both the magazines on the table through the breech.'' which implies he put the full magazine on the SLR and worked the action 20 times to unload the magazine by chambering / unchambering every round.What the poster meant (and I would like to know) is why he didn't unload the magazines by hand - ie using the tip of the top round, pushing down on the edge of each round enough to take the spring tension away so that it falls out by itself (holding the magazine horizontally). The whole process takes 5 - 6 seconds per mag.

.

[BEagle]

This is where I witnessed the most dangerous thing in the world. A 19 year old blonde cabin crew with an Uzi!

I see what you mean, Dan:


TSbc1bv5ReE

Probably a little older than 19 though!

[Vortex_Generator]

Just out of interest, did WW2 aircrews routinely carry sidearms?

[rogerk]

My late father was a WW2 Catalina pilot and I remember him carrying a .45 service revolver.

[Pontius Navigator]

BEagle, reminds me of when they kitted Mrs PN out in cabbage kit and gave her an SMG. She managed to get a fair number of rounds on target. Only problem, it wasn't her target.

And of course you watched THE film last night?

[Pontius Navigator]

Just out of interest, did WW2 aircrews routinely carry sidearms?

I believe they didn't. You were not permitted to shoot non-combatants and many downed aircrew in Europe were caught in the first instance by civilians. I seem to recall that it was different in SEA.

[BEagle]

And of course you watched THE film last night?

Nope - I've got it on DVD!

I understand a few WW2 aircrew flew with a revolver stuffed into a flying boot.

[Wander00]

Dan/Beagle - never saw a man with so much self-control!

[Fareastdriver]

''Why? Why not unload them by hand?''


I could have done as you have described. I chose that method so as to impress on this senior non-commishioned officer that, despite his apparant attitude, he was a member of a fighting service and as so should be familiar with things that go BANG. I thought that the sound of an SLR mechanism continuously working may have given him some idea.

[Halton Brat]

I do believe that the lady with the Uzi is also packing a pair of 38's..........

HB

[glad rag]

@1:29 reverting to muscle memory ? :ooh::ooh::E

[Dengue_Dude]

Probably a little older than 19 though!

Since as has been alluded to above, I reckon '38' serves well, both as age AND size.

Any short barrelled weapon on auto scares the **** out of me as after the first couple of rounds have gone, unless you're an expert, it becomes more a matter of trying to control where the barrel is going rather than hitting any target. Watch out low flying aircraft!

[Halton Brat]

Dengue

There is indeed a time & place for a short-barrelled weapon. I am fairly certain that the Uzi Popsie has had considerable experience of same.

HB

[exMudmover]

Quote: The Walther came in after a coupe of Falklands war ejectees left them behind after the weight of the Browning broke the weedy strap of the holster. Someone though it better to buy new guns than buy stronger holsters. The first unit to get the James Bond toy was 1 Sqn. They all turned up to the range to do thier training wearing DJs

Er, not true. The pilots concerned merely stuffed the pistol into the leg pocket of the immersion suits. They landed, surprise surprise, minus immersion suit leg pockets. I suspect the same would happen to a lighter gun.

The third RAF pilot to be shot down strapped the holster on under his mae west, and it stayed with him.

[Avionker]

Fareastdriver

I chose that method so as to impress on this senior non-commishioned officer that, despite his apparant attitude, he was a member of a fighting service and as so should be familiar with things that go BANG

As I thought. You were not obliged to cycle all the rounds through the breech as you first claimed. You choose to do so. You also, in an attempt to belittle this SNCO in front of your peers, wilfully ignored the correct drills for the weapon. Not exactly a textbook Load, Unload or Make safe was it?

I'm sure the SNCO, who would likely have handled weapons once a year on GDT, not on a daily basis as you would have in Aldergrove was suitably impressed. It is also possible that as a SNCO he would have had SMG on his green card and not SLR. He possibly had not handled an SLR for several years.

Given the RAFs attitude to the control of ammunition I totally agree with his insistence on individually counting the rounds. He after all would be signing for taking custody of your weapon, 2 magazines and 40 rounds of live ammunition. How was he to know that is what he was receiving if he didn't check it physically?

At Aldergrove did you receive the magazines pre-loaded? Did you hand them back in loaded? Or did you, like us mere mortals, stand in the shelter to the left of the load/unload point and remove the rounds and put them in the little trays, point up so the armourer could check that all the rounds were indeed live and not blanks?

Incidentally having served 2 years in Aldergrove and been qualified on the SLR and SLP and in later years the SA80, if I had seen anyone do what you did and I outranked them, I would have done my damnedest to get them charged.

[Pontius Navigator]

Nope - I've got it on DVD!

Ah. 'tis not the same. No anticipation and no risk of being interrupted.

[Fareastdriver]

stand in the shelter to the left of the load/unload point

No, I did not. I collected and handed back my magazines fully loaded. We used to trust each other in those days.

like us mere mortals

I wasn't a mortal. I was a pilot.

[Tashengurt]

We used to use a marked lollipop stick to check the mags to save emptying them every day.

[Avionker]

Arming/disarming procedures apparently changed by the time I got there in 1990 then. You are choosing to ignore the rest of my points though it seems.

[Avionker]

We used to use a marked lollipop stick to check the mags to save emptying them every day.

Only problem with that is that you know how many rounds are in there, but not what condition they are in, or indeed what type of rounds are in there.

[SOSL]

Guys, you seem to have forgotten that the Walther PPK only appeared in the RAF inventory when it was issued to the F4j aircrew - based at RAF Wattisham in 1984 .....

It was just one component of the aircrew "survival equipment" package, which also included a rather sexy leather jacket.

The Phantom F4j's had been selected from the desert graveyard in the US and then "reworked" at the USNARF base at San Diego and bought by the RAF to compensate for the F4's which we had had to deploy to the FI's after winning the war with Argentina.

It was only one of the unique features of the F4j which included the aircrew clothing, engines, whose 3rd line maintenance facility was in Athens (not St Athan but Athens in Greece) and HOTAS. I believe they had it first on the F4, but Beags may wish to comment.

The rework at San Diego proved to be a nightmare for the engineers at Wattisham - it was full of engineering fudges.

[BEagle]

Sorry, all I knew of the F4J(UK) was OP. TIGER TRAIL 3/84 - one of the first trails we did with the VC10K2 in Oct/Nov 1984. Out to San Diego via. Dayton, then back via Goose. We had to refuel at non-USAF bases back then, due to some pod lubricity issue.

Various things went wrong, but we were away for 10 days in total - all in nice hotels (apart from the last night in Goose). Great fun and lots of kerr-ching! Trips to Universal Studios and SeaWorld and Dinseyland helped to pass the time.

The 74(F) Sqn F4J(UK) crews were pretty slick. In those days UK AARA slots were usually 30 min, but one day 2 immaculate Bravo-fit F4J(UK)s turned up spot on time, plugged first go, took their gas, disconnected and left all in less than 10 min. We spent the next 20 min drinking tea deciding what to do next!

[xenolith]

I wasn't a mortal. I was a pilot.

You left a bit out there Fareast it should be suffixed ‘and arrogant tosser’ I believe that the said SNCO would have been justified in removing the weapon from you and then reintroducing it, to your alimentary canal!

After your time at Aldergrove a Wessex driver pitched up to the 1 metre range to unload his SLP. He didn’t remove the magazine before cocking it and deftly put a round into the sand, he was so impressed that he followed it with another. The RAF Policeman stood behind him, waiting his turn, yelled at him to put the weapon down, the policeman proceeded to make the weapon safe and, for good measure, dismantled it. He then cautioned the officer and informed him that he would be reported. As in fact you should have been!

[Fareastdriver]

As a pilot I was immortal. I commanded aircraft from November 1960 to Novenber 2008. In all that time I do not remember dying once.

[Tashengurt]

Only problem with that is that you know how many rounds are in there, but not what condition they are in, or indeed what type of rounds are in there.
You're quite right Avionker, this was a time saver day to day when we did gate guard. The mags weren't personal issue and were swapped over every four hours or so. As I recall the SNCO in charge had to check the actual rounds daily or weekly

[Geehovah]

I remember the first time I tried a Browning 9mm in the shoulder harness tucked into my F4 torso harness. I wouldn't have wanted to eject with that lump of metal by my ribs. It wasn't going anywhere other than staying with me! The Walther was better but it still worried me.

[Fareastdriver]

Seeing that my lighthearted post has been turned into a board of inquiry let us familarise with a few facts.
Leuchers had at that time no facilities for the security of visiting aircrew weapons so facilities like 1 metre ranges and onloading areas were non-existant.
I showed hin the magazines and pressed on the top round to show that they were full with twenty
I told him twice but he refused to understand or believe me. I was, at that time, a Flight Lieutenant and he was a Chief Technician.
an attempt to belittle this SNCO in front of your peers,
What peers? I was the boss.
I would have done my damnedest to get them charged.
I could have charged him on anything from PGC&D to calling an officer a liar.
It was a long, 14 hour, day so to keep the piece I unloaded it in front of him. There was no point in doing it outside as I knew it was quite safe. A gun is a gun. it does certain things if you do certain things to it, otherwise it does nothing. Aeroplanes and cars are much the same.

xenolith

I flew as a professional pilot for forty eight years. During that time I flew all over Europe and the Mediteranian, North, Eastern and Central Africa, the United States and central America, Middle East, India, most of Malaysia and Singapore, China, Australia and the South Pacific. To be able to do this in a lifetime if I had to be ‘and arrogant tosser’ I am ruddy glad that I was.

[Avionker]

Leuchers had at that time no facilities for the security of visiting aircrew weapons so facilities

So by agreeing to secure the weapons for you this Chief was in fact doing you a favour then? He could just as easily have said "Not my problem" and given you the phone number for the Orderly Officer or the Police Flt and left you to it?

I bet he wished he had afterwards.

As for your little show with the weapon I don't care what you say. What you did was not SOP for emptying a magazine, it was not safe weapon handling and was done solely to make you look macho. Arrogant, stupid and dangerous are 3 words that spring to mind.....

[davejb]

FWIW,
the chief's personal weapon would quite likely be the SMG, and he wouldn't know that a full mag held 20... as an SNCO if I were doing you a favour and you proceeded to get smart about it, you'd have been left to sort the problem out on your own. You coudln't have charged him with a damn thing, by the way.

[glad rag]

You couldn't have charged him with a damn thing, by the way.


^^^^^^^^^^^^^^this^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^.

In fact, if this little tirade is accurate, perhaps it would have been better if you had tried.

But you didn't, DID YOU.;)

[Whenurhappy]

An earlier poster referred to the advantages of using a revolver if injured ie it can be fired single-handed.

A sad case where this happened was in Auckland, NZ in January 1963. Two policemen attended an incident where a neighbour had been shot and killed (although the two officers where unaware of this at the time). They were carrying Browning .32 semi-automatics, holstered. The offender fired a shotgun at the two police who were approaching the house and both were injured in the arms, and neither could cock their pistols. Victor Wasmuth, who was subsequently declared insane, calmly walked up to both officers and killed them.

As a result of this, the NZ Police reintroduced revolvers and established specialised armed offender squads to deal with incidents where weapons may be suspected. Although there has been a general move back towards semi-autos, I understand the police on this detail can still specify revolvers (.357 Magnums) if they prefer.

Although this may seem serious thread drift, had revolvers been considered for aircrew who might have been forced to eject - and thus run the risk of injury? In my early days, although I was trained both on the Browning and the SMG, it was understood that if we went to war, I would be issued a S&W 0.38 revolver to protect the crypto on my particular platform - something to do with its US origins of the platform and DA clearance for that particular weapon.

[Halton Brat]

Fareast

I've watched the storm/teacup scenario unfold regarding your post; with due respect to your Service record/history etc, I would offer the following:

1. Chambering a round without good cause is not smart.
2. To do so after a "long, 14hr day" is not smart, for obvious reasons.
3. To do so in a building is not smart.
4. The Chf Tech in question needed to establish that a) the # of rounds was correct, & b) that they were all live rounds.
5. The Chf Tech in question was accepting responsibility for your weapon & ammunition; if this had gone awry, it is he who will take the consequences (and probably yourself, for failing to ensure proper safe custody of your weapon).
6. The Chf Tech in question was 'sticking his neck out' for you; this was your problem, not his.
7. You don't get to be a Chf Tech by being stupid; by this stage in one's career, one has seen/heard of/participated in most of the scenarios that culminate in trouble. A good SNCO will anticipate this, often keeping his Officers out of the mire at the same time. Ultimately, this man was trying to help you & to protect all the players here; he was ill treated by yourself.
8. You are fortunate that he did not make a formal complaint about your behaviour; I know many, including myself, that would have done so.


I have tried to remain non-partisan in this, though I write this from the standpoint of half a lifetime's weapon handling/competition shooting/game shooting/Chf Tech Guard Commander more times than I can remember (complete with several weapon handling 'moments' by tired youngsters)................

I'm sorry Fareast, but you have brought all this upon yourself due to the tenor of your original post.

HB

[Fareastdriver]

OK, I surrender. I wont contribute any more war stories in case I did something wrong.

[barnstormer1968]

Halton Brat.

I cant help but agree with the sentiments of the points you make in your list, but then this whole thread is interesting to me, because it seems that many of the posters have such a small amount of firearms knowledge and skills that almost anything is beyond them (which is understandable given the amount of training they may have).

I think that the poster in questions experience in weapon handling has led to a different way of thinking (that is not to say I agree with that method of unload drill). For my own part, I can say that having carried a loaded weapon for extended periods gave me a different outlook to someone who may: only shoot on the range; shoot in contests, shoot game, or simply hand their weapon into stores/an armoury every night or couple of days. I was comfortable to eat sleep and play while carrying a loaded weapon, but would have also been aware of other peoples limitations of knowledge with weapons and drills (well hopefully anyway)

[Whenurhappy]

Barnstormer,

On a related issue I have been surprised (shocked?) over the years by the ignorance of some Police personnel concerning private firearms.

Just before 9/11, I was transporting my shotguns from Stansted to Glasgow. The cased side-by-side box lock guns were appropriately checked in but I retained the two fore-stocks - 8" long pieces of polished, checquered walnut with little metal locking straps. Without these devices, the guns cannot be reassembled, let alone fired - and they are specific to each gun and can't be swapped. I reasonsed that if someone took the guns without the fore-stocks, they could'nt used them. The two armed police officers who verified the guns on check in threatened me with arrest if I did not surrender these harmelss pieces and place them back in the gun case. No amount of reasoned argument could persuade them that these items by themselves posed no risk - indeed, they would not let them go in my hold baggage, either. Yet at the other end, the guns turned up on the carousel, where anyone could have picked them up and walked away with two fully-functioning (and rather valuable) guns.

Thread drift off//

[Halton Brat]

Barnstorm

I agree with your sentiments largely; however, if I was confronted across a bench/Line Office counter by an irate/aggressive person who, having made safe a weapon, then proceeded to fit the magazine & pull back the cocking handle for unknown reasons at that point, there would be trouble.

HB

[Tashengurt]

I think that whilst everyone may have a different level of skill and comfort when handling weapons we have to remember that weapons drills, like all drills are there to provide safety through standardisation.
If everyone applied their own methods of weapon clearing then nobody would have a clue what's going on and whether a weapon was safe or not.

Back to the original thread, I recall just one of our aircrew during GW1 opting for the Browning over the Walther. It looked bloody enormous by comparison and drew a few envious looks from his mates! All very Top Gun!:}

[BEagle]

HB, well put! Why should basic weapon training be ignored in such an undisciplined manner - or at all for that matter.

In GW1, we were all issued with SLPs and live rounds. Despite carrying our cannons and bullets around with us for several weeks, when the time came to remove the rounds from the magazines and return them for safe custody, not a single 9mm round had been mislaid.

There was only one ND - by the French. Some automatic weapon of theirs fired off a burst accidentally, fortunately missing everyone (although it gave our tw@t of an Ops Officer a scare - we later compalined to the French for missing!). But the noise was reported, whereupon the senior officer present (an utter ar$e of a Sqn Ldr mover) decided to Take Control as we might be under 'terrorist attack'...:rolleyes: Our excellent KiwiAF ground defence WO turned to the offgoing Flt Lt Ops Off and announced "Sir, you might have to arrest me". When asked why, he continued "Because if you don't shut that stupid w@nker up, I'm going to deck the bast@rd!". However, at that point the oncoming Ops Off (looking rather shocked) turned up with the news that it had been a ND - and sanity was restored.

[Yellow Sun]

Whenurhappy

The two armed police officers who verified the guns on check in threatened me with arrest if I did not surrender these harmelss pieces and place them back in the gun case.

The regulations on the carriage of firearms relate to both firearms and components. The police were quite correct in insisting that you should not retain them.

The 1988 Rules on Firearm Security apply. Rule 3(4)(iv)(a) lists the general rules and (b) list the exemptions to them. In this case:

the firearm or ammunition is in transit

Therefore you have discharged your responsibilities under the the Firearms Act when you consigned your shotguns to an Approved Carrier. It is the carrier's responsibility to meet the security requirements until they are returned to you.

Note: There has been subsequent legislation on security pertaining to airguns. The Crime and Security Act 2010 deals with preventing access by persons under the age of 18.

YS

[Whenurhappy]

YS - thanks for clarifying this. In the old days (well, 1980s) I used to move my hunting rifles by air and would simply surrender the bolt to the Purser for the duration of the flight. In the case that I cited, it was clear that the two policemen didn't have scoobie about how shotguns worked, or how they were assembled.

You can be assured that I would have gone to town on the airline operator if they had gone missing - especially as they were a matched brace in fine condition - 31" barrels 1/4 3/4 choke, etc. I had imported them from New Zealand; indeed when I arrived at Gatwick I expected the Third Degree from HMCE (as was). They didn't open the case and just asked what their value was, i then paid the duty (very little) and then headed of by Train/tube/train back to Leeming. A few knowing looks on the Tube, btw!

[barnstormer1968]

Halton brat.

Sorry if I was clear not enough in agreeing with you, and also not agreeing with the unload method mentioned.

Apart from the 'irate/aggressive' part of your last post (as I'm not sure if that was present) I do agree with what you say:)


As a tangent, has anyone ever wondered why the Brits are just so very anal on counting rounds in and out? Just how much damage could you do with your one 5.56 round overnight (and no weapon), that you could not do with say a minimi and a box magazine out of the armoury the next day:}

I do of course realise that counting rounds is a very 'peacetime' or guard type activity, and has little relation to actual combat troops.

[500N]

barnstormer1968
It's not only the Brits that count rounds in and out excluding live fire on the range.

One reason is, it's a bit like what you see after an aircraft accident, a sequence of mistakes or problems all line up together to cause an accident.

Now look at a young squaddie, never handled a firearm, gets hold of a live round, everyone oooohs and aaaaahs in the OR's mess that night, then he puts it in his DPM Jacket and it's forgotten. 6 Weeks later near the end of the course, they go out on an overnight exercise using blanks with BFA's on the rifles. One night on sentry duty in his pit, it's cold and boring and he's doing what everyone does on sentry duty, digging food out of his pockets. He finds the live round and decides to load it into his gun. Just as he does this, the Sect Cmd comes around checking on them. He forgets he loaded it and then the next day when he fires the weapon, it blows up.

Everything lined up perfectly for it to happen.

Just my HO.


On the subject of the unload via the breech, I agree with all that has been said.
Halton Brat summed it up well.

[StopStart]

As a pilot I was immortal. I commanded aircraft from November 1960 to Novenber 2008. In all that time I do not remember dying once.

For what it's worth me old, the air force needs more folk like your good self and less of the rule quoting holier-than-thou droids we seem to be inundated with these days.

You are indeed immortal and long may you remain so. :ok:

[SASless]

Crapsakes...how much trouble does one get into if one were to home manufacture a Catapult (Sling Shot to us Rednecks)? I mean after all....one can slay a Giant with one! So's I've been taught anyhow!

[hval]

SASless,

You can be arrested for owning a catapult. You may not carry catapults loaded, nor may you carry a catapult concealed.

Under the "You Are Not Allowed To Hurt Yourself Act, 2007" you may be sentenced to life imprisonment if found carrying a catapult. That is if you are employed and pay taxes. If unemployed claiming benefits, and with a history of mass murder, rape and torture, you will be given compensation, a larger house, and increased benefits.

:E