When RAF Pilots Flew the F-104

[ColinB]

I recently went to the 70th Anniversary of the opening the RAF Llandwrog runways. I met a charming man who told me about some of his experiences flying the F-104 whilst an RAF pilot on attachment to the GAF at Jever.
I think I recall Don Kingaby saying that he was for a time the Chief PAI of the GAF at Oldenburg and Johannes Steinhoff being on a course there.
Does anyone have further information on this fascinating era?

[Wander00]

Read "Flying Freestyle" by J..... P.... He flew them with the Dutch.

[foldingwings]

As a Bucc Nav, I went supersonic for the first time in a Danish 2-seat F-104 out of Aalborg in the mid-70s! Cracking jet!

Foldie:ok:

[TBM-Legend]

FYI>>>>
AVM Jim Flemming:
Jim is the only Royal Australian Air Force (RAAF) pilot to fly the F104 C & D. He did this as a Squadron Leader when he was on exchange duty with the USAF at George AFB in 1958-1960. Jim was Operations officer of the 476th Tac Ftr Sqn of the 479th Tac Ftr Wing being the first unit in USAF to get the F104C. Jim has over 600 hours in the Starfighter. He also was the designer of the famous shooting star insignia for the 479th Wing Starfighters. (in blue for 476th, red for 434th, green for 435th and yellow for 436th TFS)

[exMudmover]

Quote from "Flying Freestyle" by Jerry Pook:

"The Starfighter was beautiful to fly, smooth and sophisticated, supremely fast and powerful - if you took liberties with it you knew it would kill you in an instant."

[FODPlod]

Chapter 19 of Roland White's Phoenix Squadron (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/books/bookreviews/5237235/Phoenix-Squadron-by-Rowland-White-review.html) describes a six-week period when 16 F-104s of MFG-2, a German Marineflieger squadron, were based at RNAS Lossiemouth while their own airfield at Eggebek was being resurfaced. The Germans and their Buccaneer hosts of 809 Naval Air Squadron competed in a fair few low-flying and drinking games, fortunately without loss of life or limb.

[Fugazi1000]

I remember my father (now deceased) making a joke when we were stationed in RAFG Wildenrath in the early eighties. It was only later that I 'got it'. :(


Q: How do you get yourself a Starfighter?

A: Buy a field in Germany and wait.

[Wholigan]

There was at least one other RAAF pilot (ex Mirages) who flew the 104. He was on exchange at Cold Lake, Alberta at the same time as me, flying the CF104.

If you want the name TBM, PM me.

[Dan Winterland]

My dad blagged a twin stick 104 ride while he was on a Sqn exchange. The GAF pilot gave him control at the start of the take off roll. Dad rotated when told and they bored upwards at an impressive rate and told him to level off at a certain altitude. Dad missed that level by an considerable margin and the Luftwaffe ace took over with a comment to the effect the 104 must be a lot more sensitive to handle than the Buccaneer.

"I wouldn't know" dad replied. "I'm a navigator!"

[A2QFI]

Excellent Dan!!! Love it!!!

[Wholigan]

Had a very similar experience when a RAF Phantom pilot and nav QWI team bowled up at Cold Lake for a seminar week.

On day 1 they were briefed for a 2-ship SAP sortie. The briefing also covered all the essential knowledge for flying in the front-seat of the 104. The RAF guys were in shirt-sleeve uniform and went to get changed into their growbags straight after the briefing. When they got back to the auth desk, the Canadian that was flying the nav said "Hell, you a navigator? Well, never mind, get in the front anyway". Said RAF nav proceeded to impress the heck out of the Canadian pilot. This nav had spent a fair bit of time in the 2-stick Phantom and had a reasonable amount of poling time.

For interest, we frequently put pilots of other types in the front seat, as the only thing you couldn't do from the back seat was to operate the switch that turned the nav kit from "align" to "nav".

[BEagle]

"I wouldn't know" dad replied. "I'm a navigator!"

A similar tale from our 7ft tall blonde Luftwaffe mate on 56F in the early 1980s. Before arriving at RAF Wattisham, he'd been sent to RAF Brawdy to do a UK Orientation Course and was soon plonked into the front seat of one of HM's Hawks. "Intense course these Brits run", he mused. Off they went, with the gallant Hauptmann at the helm...

After an hour of poling around Pembrokeshire, back they came to land. At this stage the QFI decided that he was a bit concerned about the skill level our heroic Hauptmann was displaying, so decided to take control and landed.

Come the debrief he was quite diplomatic about the somewhat agricultural flying skills he'd witnessed, but concluded "Well, mate, a couple more trips and we'll send you off on your own!".

"But sir, Ich bin ein Navigator!"

"WTF....:uhoh: Oh well, b£oody good show, mate!"

[jindabyne]

Colin B

Did that charming man speak with a slight lilt in his voice? If so, beware, because when fuelled with a few beers, he was prone to smack one over the head. Charmingly. Lovely man PL!

[ex-fast-jets]

On a Sqn Exchange with a GAF 104 Sqn from Norvenich, we did a wheels roll to 10'000ft race in Harrier/104 two-seaters - native pilot in the front of each, with enemy in the rear seat doing the timing.

The Harrier won by 7 secs, as I recall.

But the audience gave their vote to the 104.

10ft down the runway to the east end of Witt runway abeam 1(F) Sqn, going quite quickly, then a wicked rotate to disappear into low cloud vertically!!

Used all its available fuel though, so nothing left for the planned 1v1, unfortunately.

[TBM-Legend]

[/QUOTET[QUOTE]here was at least one other RAAF pilot (ex Mirages) who flew the 104. He was on exchange at Cold Lake, Alberta at the same time as me, flying the CF104.


we had a Canuck F-104 exchange pilot , Bill Nesbitt, at Will in around 1974. I guess this is era you mean...

* My quote about James Hillary Flemming was taken from the F-104 flyers website where he posted that. Not my original quote.

[BBadanov]

That's right TBM, and the RAAF pilot was D--- L----, and did some time at Sollingen in Germany.

Also the RN had an exchange program with the German Navy, at least one ex-Bucc pilot (M-----i) flew the GN F-104G.

[NutLoose]

Have a look at

Jever Steam Laundry - Home Page (http://www.rafjever.org/)

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

Was I the only Nav to do the Jag OCU? Or at least the groundschool bit.... I chickened out before the flying phase... balls not big enough I guess:O

[NutLoose]

20 Sqn had a Jag Nav??

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

They may be needed one but twas not me.

[ColinB]

Did that charming man speak with a slight lilt in his voice? If so, beware, because when fuelled with a few beers, he was prone to smack one over the head. Charmingly. Lovely man PL!

He had a clipped, middle class voice and was quietly spoken. He didn't seem like a head-banger to me but who knows?
The reason I mentioned Don Kingaby was that he was the W/C Flying at RAF Celle in the late 1950s and his next posting was to be a desk job. The story related many years later was that he was thinking of resigning his commission when a pal from Fontainebleau tipped him off that the GAF were seeking current PAIs. This led to training in the USA and his job at Oldenburg.
What interested me particularly was the initial flying training of the nascent GAF and the involvement of RAF aircrew. Were many involved and where did they do their training?
This was a short time after WW11 and there must have been many interesting meetings with recent foes.

[BBadanov]

At a Squadron Exchange in Husum in the early 80s, an elderly G-91 Gino pilot told me his instructor on pilots course was RAF. This was the mid to late 1950s (Luftwaffe reformed 1956?) and he was trained in Germany.

[jindabyne]

Here's your man from Llandwrog, CB ------

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb59/malgrosse/img020.jpg

Far right, visiting old mates at RAF Valley in his F-104 during the station Open Day 1975(I think). The Staish, Gp Capt Edwards is on the left.

And another of him (far left), about a year earlier, Dragons formation team --

http://i205.photobucket.com/albums/bb59/malgrosse/img019.jpg

[Lone_Ranger]

quote fug.
."I remember my father (now deceased) making a joke when we were stationed in RAFG Wildenrath in the early eighties. It was only later that I 'got it'. Q: How do you get yourself a Starfighter? A: Buy a field in Germany and wait."

..................Hmm Robert Calvert fan was he?

[A2QFI]

I agree with the answer but I think another version of the question was "Why don't the Luftwaffe have Open Days?"

[exMudmover]

Re that old business about the German accident record with the F104:

They bought 800+ F104s and crashed just over 200 of them.

What percentage of the RAF's Lightning force did we write off? Over half a squadron's worth doing show-off wheels-up takeoffs for a start!

What percentage of the RAF's Harrier force did we write off? A lot more than 25%, I'm sure.

[Wander00]

Certainly the Gant had a higher attrition rate, and that was without adding "weapons" training.

[A2QFI]

Figures from an ex Jaguar pilot quote 208 Jaguar airframes bought, another source says 200, and 65 losses so, 33% and were there any enemy action losses?

[A2QFI]

What weapons training did Gnats do?

[Wander00]

Gnat - weapons training-they did not - hence my point, that they were not subject to that additional "risk factor", as I think they are known now

[TBM-Legend]

Well the RAAF didn't do too well with the Mirage. A fine ship but....

.....came into service in December 1963. The fleet was built to a total of 100 Single seat 111Os and 16 dual seat 111Ds. Over the next twenty four years 43 aircraft were lost and 14 pilots were killed.

[jindabyne]

What weapons training did Gnats do?

Plenty in India

[ColinB]

Here's your man from Llandwrog, CB ------

You look a little older than the chap in the picture but it was a pleasure to meet you.

[Halton Brat]

The Gnat did not require weapons to inflict damage; I had the dubious distinction of chopping off a colleague's finger with a port aileron during a functional test in the hangar. Stand clear when I'm in the cockpit.......

HB

[jamesdevice]

someone mentioned "Captain" Calvert...

‪So you wanna buy Airplanes.wmv‬‏ - YouTube

[Jane-DoH]

Okay, I got a good question for you guys. I was told the F-104 had a really crappy range, but some pilots who talked about it said that it's range was on par with other fighters of the era. The fact that the aircraft had a very high fuel fraction, it's wing-loading was lighter than the F-101 and Ps was said to be about the same as the F-101 and the F-101 could fly very far...

Which one is correct if it's not classified?

[bonajet]

Of the first main batch of 110 ordered (i.e. the 60s & 70s aircraft before the 80s attrition buys), there were 60 lost or around 55%.

[GreenKnight121]

F-104A: J79-GE-3A/3B; Normal range 730 miles*. Maximum range with external drop tanks 1400 miles.
Fuel: Internal fuel capacity was 897 US gallons, and maximum fuel capacity with two wingtip tanks and two underwing tanks was 1627 US gallons.

F-104B: as above, except internal fuel capacity was 752 US gallons.

F-104C:J79-GE-7; Normal range 850 miles*. Maximum range with four drop tanks was 1500 miles.
Fuel: Internal fuel capacity was 897 US gallons, and maximum fuel capacity with two wingtip tanks and two underwing tanks was 1627 US gallons. A 195 US gallon drop tank could be carried on each of the underwing pylons, plus a 170 US gallon drop tank at each wingtip.

F-104G: J79-GE-11A; Normal range 1080 miles**. Maximum range with four drop tanks was 1630 miles.
Fuel: Internal fuel capacity was 1,054 US gallons, and maximum fuel capacity with two wingtip tanks and two underwing tanks was 1784 US gallons.

F-104S: J79-GE-19; Normal range was 1550 miles***, and maximum range with four drop tanks was 1815 miles.
Fuel: Standard internal fuel capacity 896 US gallons, which can be supplemented by one 225 US gallon centerline tank, two 195-US gallon underwing tanks and two 170-US gallon wingtip tanks. In addition, 121 US gallons could be carried in an auxiliary tank in the ammunition bay.



* "normal" was with no external tanks.

** "normal" was with no external tanks, but external tank capacity was increased.

*** "normal" was with the centerline tank and the wingtip tanks.

[Wholigan]

For anyone who may be interested, there have been 2 threads in the past on the 104:

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/203620-f-104-accidents.html

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/238163-f104-fundamentally-flawed.html

[A2QFI]

Or were they Ajeets?

[Wholigan]

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTfqzabn1dLfm3-eTTpsNpDHIgBOY44FvDuYxRojUS11idZ7H8w

HAL Ajeets they were.

At the time of one of the Indian/Pakistan conflicts, the Indians gave them the nickname "Sabre Slayer".

[Madbob]

GK121

Irrespective of the model and the fuel each was able to carry, a close relation (Wg Cdr Dickie Martin) who was a TP and in a long and distinguished career (the F-104 was one of over 120 types he had flown) told me that it was the only ac he could remember actually seeing the fuel guage unwinding when in reheat :yuk:.

He said it was as though he had a massive fuel leak; which I suppose was true!

MB

[meadowbank]

You could certainly watch the fuel gauge decreasing in an F-4. At low level and full reheat, the quoted fuel consumption is 2000 lbs/minute, which is roughly equivalent to 4 (imperial) gallons/second, say 4.5 US gallons/second!

On another note and in keeping with this thread, I was lucky enough to bag a ride in a German Navy F-104 out of Eggebek in April 83. We did a low level jaunt around the altic and flew close enough to Peenemunde to be able to see the MiGs on the airfield. I had expected the 104 to be twitchy in roll, but it was rock-steady and terrific for close formation. On the other hand, I seem to remember final approach speed on the day (2 wing-tip tanks) was 195 kts! To aid the discussion on endurance, my logbook shows a sortie length of 1 hr 20 mins, all at low level.

[Jane-DoH]

meadowbank

To aid the discussion on endurance, my logbook shows a sortie length of 1 hr 20 mins, all at low level.

And you were probably flying at least Mach 0.90 at that altitude I would assume?


R.C.
That being said, I'd like to remind everybody in a manner reminiscent of the SNL bit on Julian Assange, that no matter how I die: It was murder (even if there was a suicide note or a video of me peacefully dying in my sleep), and should I be arrested or framed for a criminal offense, or disappear entirely -- I think we all know why it happened, and who to blame for it…

[A2QFI]

ISTR recall hearing the early Jaguar engine's reheat described as "A fuel dump with flames in it".

[45-25-25]

In Oct 87 I flew in the back of a Two Seater 104 (TF 2777) on a Taceval Chase Sortie out of Norvenich chasing 4 Tornados Lo Lo to 4 ATAF and back; we flew for 1.40 - I was a bit worried on the final approach in poorish viz when the Bingo light came on. (The chase pilot who was from Memmingham was not familiar with Norvenich!) It was a good sortie!

[BBadanov]

See 45-25-25, without a nav, you were starting to worry.....:bored:

[ex-fast-jets]

But with a nav, he might have been approaching the wrong airfield..........

[exMudmover]

Jane-DoH

You could fly the RF104G comfortably for 1hr 40min plus at low level, cruising most of the way at 450kt, with the occasional push-up to 0.9 Mach (approx 600kts) for a target run. This would be with 4 external tanks. A/B only used for T/O. I can recall regularly seeing 360 miles plus on the RBI range to home base, all flown on a LO-LO profile. Always felt like a long way from home after my time on the Harrier!
Though I never tried it, I was told that with no tanks at all you could cruise for an hour at 600 kts at Max Dry, landing with 1000lb.

A2QFI

A scurrilous Jaguar rumour within the Harrier Force was that the runway controller had to go out to each a/c before rolling to check that both reheats had lit - by sticking his hand behind the jet pipe!

I'll get my hat and coat...

[Madbob]

X MM

At Laarbruch :ok::ok: in 1979, the II (AC) Sqn Jags with recce pod, 2 x 1200 litre drop tanks and empty outer pylons (pre Boz/Phimat and no CBLS) used every inch of Laarbruch's 9,000 ft runway to get airborne on a summer's day.

If the upwind barrier had been raised 9 out of 10 aircraft would NOT have cleared it. :yuk::yuk:

Things got better with later Adours, but not enough to really transform the jet into a high performance FJ. Although the small wing and high loading did help to smooth out the ride at LL.

MB

[Worf]

The Ajeets came much later (post 1971) - they were supposed to be close air support ground attack airplanes. Basically a wet winged Gnat F MK 1 with an upgraded Hobson tailplane actuator and a Martin Baker seat.

The Gnat F MK 1 fought all the wars for the IAF. It was point air defence optimized, but could carry RPs. They did do a fair bit of ground attack with rockets, bombs and 30mm cannon in the 1971 Bangladesh war.

[Jane-DoH]

GreenKnight121

Just out of curiosity, being that the wingtip tanks were smaller than the underwing tanks, what was the capacity of each particular tank?

[GreenKnight121]

Ummm... I gave the numbers earlier in this thread, in post #38.
http://www.pprune.org/6628487-post38.html

Source: Lockheed F-104 Starfighter (http://www.joebaugher.com/usaf_fighters/f104.html)

[RHINO]

wonder where 'shorty' Bauman is these days...

[Jane-DoH]

GreenKnight121

You listed the total number of gallons externally carried; you didn't specify how much the wingtip tanks carried; and how much the underwing tanks carried.

Regardless, I checked your site, and I did some math and some research of my own. The wingtip tanks could be either 170 gallons or 200 gallons (converting imperial gallons to US gallons); the underwing tanks were 195 US gallons.

I assume when carrying just tip-tanks the plane carried either a 170 or a 200 gallon tank; when carrying all four tanks, the tip-tank was a 170 gallon tank, and the underwing was a 195 gallon tank?

[GreenKnight121]

You listed the total number of gallons externally carried; you didn't specify how much the wingtip tanks carried; and how much the underwing tanks carried.

Sigh... no I didn't!

In two cases (-A & -G), I listed internal tankage and total tankage, in the other two (-C & -S) I listed total tankage, internal tankage, and the capacities of each external tank!

Since the total fuel minus internal fuel for the F-104A and the F-104G gives the same total (730 gallons) for the 4 external tanks as you get adding up the capacities shown for the -C and -S models, logic will show that the wingtip and underwing tanks would be the same, since there would be no reason for the USAF to develop new tanks with differing capacities for each model, right?

F-104A: J79-GE-3A/3B; Normal range 730 miles*. Maximum range with external drop tanks 1400 miles.
Fuel: Internal fuel capacity was 897 US gallons, and maximum fuel capacity with two wingtip tanks and two underwing tanks was 1627 US gallons.

F-104B: as above, except internal fuel capacity was 752 US gallons.

F-104C:J79-GE-7; Normal range 850 miles*. Maximum range with four drop tanks was 1500 miles.
Fuel: Internal fuel capacity was 897 US gallons, and maximum fuel capacity with two wingtip tanks and two underwing tanks was 1627 US gallons. A 195 US gallon drop tank could be carried on each of the underwing pylons, plus a 170 US gallon drop tank at each wingtip.

F-104G: J79-GE-11A; Normal range 1080 miles**. Maximum range with four drop tanks was 1630 miles.
Fuel: Internal fuel capacity was 1,054 US gallons, and maximum fuel capacity with two wingtip tanks and two underwing tanks was 1784 US gallons.

F-104S: J79-GE-19; Normal range was 1550 miles***, and maximum range with four drop tanks was 1815 miles.
Fuel: Standard internal fuel capacity 896 US gallons, which can be supplemented by one 225 US gallon centerline tank, two 195-US gallon underwing tanks and two 170-US gallon wingtip tanks. In addition, 121 US gallons could be carried in an auxiliary tank in the ammunition bay.



* "normal" was with no external tanks.

** "normal" was with no external tanks, but external tank capacity was increased.

*** "normal" was with the centerline tank and the wingtip tanks.

[Jane-DoH]

GreenKnight121

Sorry about that

[Jane-DoH]

What was the L/D ratio of the F-104 when it was cruising subsonic at altitude without it's external tanks, and with it's external tanks?


R.C.

[airpolice]

Jindabyne:
Far right, visiting old mates at RAF Valley in his F-104 during the station Open Day 1975(I think).


I have a nice photo of that aircraft, I'll dig it out over the weekend. Your video link is not working.

[jindabyne]

Sorry airpolice, my finger-trouble

Piccy re-instated, with another one of the man at Post 23

[ktk]

I also was lucky enough to fly both the Harrier and the 104 (CF).
LD ratio of 104 = no lift and not much more drag!!

We had one with no pylons and painted in black and white gloss paint would go super in mil power I know I did it one day as the Baron at fairly low level.

Longest trip low level Baden to Valley at 480/450 kts with enough fuel to divert to Heyford as the wind was out of limits at Valley.

Oh happy days.