Kinloss - partial reprieve?

[KeyPilot]

I have noticed that the Kinloss website has just been updated (my emphasis):

"Routine flying operations at Kinloss ceased on 31 July. However, there remains a current defence requirement for the airfield to act as a Relief Landing Ground (Emergency) for RAF Lossiemouth GR4 aircraft. The airfield continues to be used by the Moray Flying Club and No 663 VGS. Further work is now taking place to determine if a longer term requirement for the airfield remains."

Anyone have any inside knowledge of this? Apart from lodger units, what is happening at Kinloss now? The mess must be awfully quiet.

[Doobry Firkin]

The Moray Flying Club and the VGS were going to remain at Kinloss using the airfield anyway - question was, would the site be sold or used by MOD/Defence land, that would have decided what would happen to them in the future. For the immediate future they would have remained.

The situation with the emergency relief ground for Lossie aircraft came to the surface in the last few months. Despite everyone knowing the airfield was closing at the end of July out of the blue the airfield was needed by 1 Gp to act as an emergency airfield. As to what will happen to the airfield side of things when the as yet un-named army unit move in no-one knows. That could be the further work they talk about!

[Neptunus Rex]

"...and the condemned ate a hearty breakfast."

[Yozzer]

It will end up spilt between interested parties like Dishforth is now. The RAF own the airfield and the Army own the domestic site. ATC provided by RAF detached from Lossie on a daily basis and no other RAF presence.

[airpolice]

It will end up spilt between interested parties like Dishforth is now. The RAF own the airfield and the Army own the domestic site. ATC provided by RAF detached from Lossie on a daily basis and no other RAF presence.


That's a bit of a trek, Lossiemouth to Dishforth.

Couldn't Linton send someone to do Local at Dishforth, same as they did for Topcliffe & Church Fenton?

[just another jocky]

Despite everyone knowing the airfield was closing at the end of July out of the blue the airfield was needed by 1 Gp to act as an emergency airfield.

Errr....it wasn't "out of the blue" at all. It was identified as soon as it became known that Kinloss may close. Whether or not it was passed sufficiently far up the chain of command for someone to take it into account is another matter.

We even had many posts on this site regarding this at the start of the year.

It is simply another case of those making the decision to close not being in posession of all the facts before making the decision.

There are 2 issues AFAIK:

1) With Leuchars closing as well, there is no 'military' diversion for use by the Lossie GR4 & Typhoon wing.

2) The GR4 OCU have major issues teaching roller landings to students due to the high fuel weight needed to preserve a diversion further away than Kinloss. Too high a fuel weight = no rollers/minimum rollers etc.

[Finningley Boy]

Here's a mad cap idea, why don't they just leave the Typhoon wing at Leuchars like what it is meant to be in the first place? Or if the Army are so insistant on moving into the University town, convince them of the logic of moving the Air Regiment from Gutersloh to Leuchars, that way the East Lothian UAS can continue to use Leuchars and the airfield can be maintained while housing some of the Army and, of course, act as a more realistic diversion for Lossiemouth!:ok:

FB:)

[pr00ne]

SheffieldDoncasterRobinHood Boy,

You completely miss the point of closing Leuchars. It's closing because the RAF has no need for 4 fast jet bases and it has to lose the cost of running one from it's operating budget. As you could not move all of the Lossiemouth residents into Leuchars alongside 3 Typhoon squadrons, Leuchars is closing as a fast jet main operating base.

The AAC from Gutersloh will be going to Yeovilton when the AAC reduce to just 2 rotary types at 2 operational bases. Apache at Wattisham and Lynx Wildcat at Yeovilton alongside the Navy Wildcats.

I see no reason why the UAS couldn't stay at Leuchars, just as the UAS at Cosford could stay on the airfield there when the station is handed over to the Army.

[Neptunus Rex]

Apart from its proximity to Leuchars, Kinloss has the best weather factor of all the airfields in the UK.

[Finningley Boy]

Dear Pr00ne,

It would not be a question of moving the Lossiemouth personnel into Leuchars or vice versa, I understand that as the next two Typhoon squadrons stand up, two GR4 squadrons will stand down, as if the Typhoons were the GR4 replacements all along, but we know better than that I'm sure. This being the case, it would leave just the OCU to slot into Marham. The R.A.F. is able to cope with all eventualities these days with just 8 Fighter/Attack squadrons remember. What has actually happened, is Lossiemouth was due to close as it stood no contest against Marham. Leuchars was assured, then the row over closing Lossiemouth, and within days, you'll recall, the papers were claiming the end of Leuchars. But despite your professional background on the matter, you've got it wrong. The R.A.F. is not shoe horning units into 3 bases in order to save operating costs on one, they're reducing to 3 bases because they already have the spare capacity after the recent round of defence cuts.:*

By the way, what is the source you have which determines that the Army Air Corps will be re-deployed as you describe?

FB:)

[Skeleton]

I know spend millions upgrading KSS to Harrier standards. Move the Harriers there, then close it again.

I'll get my coat.

[Finningley Boy]

I know spend millions upgrading KSS to Harrier standards. Move the Harriers there, then close it again.

I'll get my coat.


That's silly and would never happen!:(:ok:

FB:)

[just another jocky]

FB, AFAIK Leuchars as a div does not help the situation for the GR4 student rollers, only KSS fits the bill.

[Finningley Boy]

JAJ

By the time Leuchars Typhoons become Lossiemouth Typhoons, there'll be no more GR4 OCU in Scotland, it'll be down at Marham. My suggestion of Leuchars as a diversion was from a weather and emergency point of view!:ok:

FB:)

[GalleyTeapot]

Why isn't Inverness Airport suitable as a relief landing for Lossie? RHAG? Or just purely because its civvie?

[aw ditor]

Re-open Tain?

[Double Hush]

Ever since the closure of KSS was discussed, the issue of a lack of suitable diversions for Lossie was understood by anyone with a minimum of intelligence. Losing KSS meant the loss of the 'crash div' and the upping of the minimum landing fuel by a considerable amount, reducing the fuel available for 'training' by the same considerable amount. Now, with the loss of LUK, the only suitable diversion for Lossie is Leeming - yes, Leeming. Inverness and Aberdeen are too short, unless a VERY strong wind is blowing; Glasgow and Edinburgh are too busy; Stornoway has no aids. If a Tornado has an emergency that requires a cable and cannot get into Lossie, the nearest div is now Leeming. Maybe, just maybe, someone up high has realised this and is trying to keep a runway (and cable) available at KSS. Without this, JMCs will have to be conducted in the Moray Firth so that the players can land with enough fuel for the distant diversions!

[PIK3141]

One of your Tornados diverted here to Prestwick last week, as they, and other fast jets, commonly do. Prestwick is closer to Lossiemouth than Leeming is, last time I looked. Agreed, its not quite as close as Kinloss, however Prestwick has ''saved'' scores of USAF and RAF fast jets over the past 20 years, including F16s, Tornados and Hawks this year. Prestwick at the moment is probably the 2nd busiest airfield in the UK for military transit, 2nd only to Mildenhall. So lets not get carried away ignoring other options.

[Just This Once...]

A number of Tornado emergency drills require a cable engagement; depending on what you are left with the jet may not appreciate a crosswind either.

[sturb199]

By the time Leuchars Typhoons become Lossiemouth Typhoons, there'll be no more GR4 OCU in Scotland, it'll be down at Marham.

So tell me Finningley Boy, from where this pearl comes from?

[andrewn]

We're now well below "critical mass" so therefore have no resiliency or redundancy in terms of airfields, aircraft, aircrew, groundcrew, etc. Each and every "slice" is now a cut in capability.

In the case of Lossie/KSS I'd guess that the long term requirement for another runway in that area has just become a whole lot more real with the closure of (RAF) Leuchars; hence the attempt to not fully close off all options - for now at least.

Longer term I'd expect KSS to drift off into history (as an airfield) once the safety case is either "revised" or binned altogether.;)

Sad times, as we all know.

[Finningley Boy]

So tell me Finningley Boy, from where this pearl comes from?

Sturb199, from the SDSR, I understand that the GR4s will all be concentrated at Marham, I took this to include the OCU as it is the biggest GR4 operator, no?!

If, however, the current GR4s are to remain at Lossiemouth and make a home for 3 squadrons of Typhoons as well, I'd have thought that a bit of a squeeze? Likewise, the idea of moving 2 more squadrons and an OCU into Marham in addition, would also be quite a shoehorning exercise.

I certainly don't think if the latter two scenarios are true that the Government has service personnel's interests at heart. I imagine the there'd be little room for all those involved. And certainly, Leuchars should not close if that were the case. Andrewn's comments are spot on, but again, money and politics are what its all about. I'm sure the army are looking forward to days ahead on the links at St. Andrews and the Universities to the pending mix of young squaddies and young female students!:E

FB:)

[Wensleydale]

I'm sure the army are looking forward to days ahead on the links at St. Andrews and the Universities to the pending mix of young squaddies and young female students!

Do you mean that young ladies from St Andrews will prefer the red uniform of the army, such as that of the Irish Guards, to those of RAF blue? I wonder what led to such an idea.:rolleyes:

[just another jocky]

FB, I think you missed the point earlier.

Leuchars as a weather or crash div will still negate the chance of roller training for OCU students as the FoG required for LUK is too high and the fuel weight causes problems for roller landings. Did you think I meant they wanted to do roller training at KSS?

Far too trivial a consideration for SDSR, but a vital one nonetheless.

I don't recall seeing in SDSR where it says that the Lossie GR4 wing will move to Marham.

Lossie airfield could quite easily absorb 3 more sqns. Whether the infra could or not is another matter.

[Finningley Boy]

JAJ,

I'm sure it has been stated that the GR4s will be concentrated at Marham, I'll bow to greater knowledge, but there are so many versions and takes on this SDSR saga that its sometimes difficult to grasp exactly what has been said, implied and cryptically hinted at. In my honest opinion, if the GR4s are remaining at Lossiemouth anyway, I'd leave the Typhoons at Leuchars. Its frankly absurd that there isn't room in the resources of this country to maintain 4 operating bases and deploy units rather more rationally instead of squeezing everything onto as few bases as possible.

Not a good idea, especially if the odd one out is to be turned into an Assualt course and Tank park!:(

FB:)

[Double Hush]

PIK, Yes, Prestwick is an option but they now frequently add the requirement for Mil aircraft to arrive with 20 mins holding fuel. Fully IAW with civvy rules but a crippler for mil aircraft that have v little fuel to begin with.

[RileyDove]

Last time I looked there was still a runway at West Freugh which isnt used much!

[Finningley Boy]

This is turning into a good scheme! Lets open up the airfields at Tain, West Freugh, Kinloss, Turnhouse, Montrose, Renfrew and Wick, kick the civvies out of Prestwick and Abbotsinch making them R.A.F. and F.A.A. again and divert all civvy flights to Leuchars!:ok: Now what to do with Lossiemouth!?!:E

FB:)

[Jimlad1]

Asked as a non aviation type, but couldnt GR4s use Inverness airport as a diversion field? I've been there before and seen Hawks landing on it.

[Green Flash]

Jim

True, but Hawks don't need a RHAG and generally dont carry lots of whizzybang stuff. Then you'll need somewhere secure to park them overnight, Kinloss has a load of sheds avbl for that with some blokes on the front gate with shooters. Instant support network at Kinloss, much faffing at Inverness, who will also no doubt charge. If the divertees are carrying directional ordnance there are plenty of safety arcs avbl in the north woods, with dog patrols.

Why not move some GR4's to Kinloss and just bus the crews over each day?

St Kinloss, anyone?

[baffman]

This is turning into a good scheme! Lets open up the airfields at Tain, West Freugh, Kinloss, Turnhouse, Montrose, Renfrew and Wick, kick the civvies out of Prestwick and Abbotsinch making them R.A.F. and F.A.A. again and divert all civvy flights to Leuchars!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif Now what to do with Lossiemouth!?!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif


I dunno, how about changing the name to HMS Fulmar and using it for a carrier air wing?

[k3k3]

How about Milltown? Or is that delving too far into the past?

[ShortFatOne]

If you are having to keep the airfield open anyway, you could base some brand new maritime patrol aircraft there, say the new Nimrod MRA4......oh, wait a minute.......

:ugh::ugh::ugh: