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Your Proxy
1st Aug 2011, 12:41
In the height of economic gloom in Feb 2009, AS sent a letter to all pilots raising the productivity threshold for all pilots from 78 to 92 hours on the basis that everyone was doing more ULR flights and times were hard. This may have been justifiable if everyone was actually doing the same amount of ULR and non-ULR - but clearly this was not the case or likely to be. What was omitted was any comment on those who could seldom or never do ULR. A sweeping change based on an erroneous assumption hitting pay packets squarely in the jaw. Given the opening paragraph it was also reasonable to expect these "difficult decisions" to be reviewed when the situation improved. Later all were told this would never happen

Naturally those who were working hard and achieving relatively high hours despite doing no ULR trips were now going to work hard with much less financial reward, if any.

This was not well received by anyone particularly those unable/unlikely to do ULR at all. Now they could be made to work extensive duties on regional and subcontinent turnarounds often at night with minimum days off at no productivity cost to the company or reward to the crews. The 92 hours productivity threshold became the new rostering target - sometimes even higher.

The fundamental problem was this: With ULR making up some portion of the roster it was possible to still achieve the threshold 92 Block hours without particularly high Duty Hours. However those condemned to short and medium haul found they had to do many more Duty hours to get to the targeted 92 (or higher) Block hours that was the measure of productivity.

With Airbus 330 pilots (and trainers) unlikely to do ULR, it became common to see duty times of 140 hours (and often higher) to achieve the target 92 hours block. On the other fleets this was more likely to be around 105 duty hours to get to the 92 block hours .

In effect they were working harder, spending more time at work and having less time off for the same pay. The general perception was this was grossly unfair. This did not even take into account the extra duty spent at work that is never officially recognised and obviously ramped up with increased number of duties conducted.

In February 2011 the crescendo of complaints was such that Duty Time was removed from the published rosters leaving only Block Time for comparison. Out of sight for comparison then hopefully out of mind... Some excuse was given for this removal but most pilots remained cynical. It reinforced the perception of unfair work distribution being recognised but not addressed. It also begged the question as to whether Duty time was going to be monitored at all.

All hope that this was a temporary sacrifice to get the company through lean times was now gone. It went on to making massive profits and there was no suggestion that the productivity threshold would be reviewed to "spread the joy" to the workers. Bigger profits meant bigger bonus especially higher up the food chain so as some pilots became more haggard by the day or aged visibly, some managers collected multiples of the "profit share" declared.

Given the endless horizon of high duty hours with minimal time off and no respite, arguments were made for some recognition of the extra duty time (that also resulted in less days off) associated with short haul flying to achieve the target block hours because rosters were published to simply balance block time and not duty time or even number of duties.

The company argued that one could not make comparisons on Duty Hours as duties were very different and could not be compared. The strains of ULR could not be compared to those of multiple sectors short haul for example. Block Hours was unilaterally decided to be the only valid measurement for work/productivity.

However this reasoning now appears lacks consistency in both policy and remuneration application with recent developments

Pilots can not change fleets at a whim. However trainers can resign their post and this began to happen. The multiple duties and minimal days off often forced some to sacrifice training pay for lifestyle and return to the line as the number of training duties were increasing to the range of 15 to 20 per month, mostly multiple sector short haul or simulator.

Clearly the solution was to offer more financial incentive to keep them. This was pushed hard by the Training Department, to their credit.

Initially the target number of training duties envisaged was 12 per month the rest of the roster would be a break from training. There was a marginal reward for duties above 12 which previously had seldom occurred enough to have significant financial impact. But as the The Training Dept was pressured to deliver more and more from trainers, they, again to their credit, have pushed this allowance higher so now any duty above the requisite 12 now earns a Dhs 1000 reward. This is logical, reasonable and incentivises the rostering folk to spread the load and possibly entice more into training therefore improving lifestyle for all. While it does not recognise Duty Time per-se, it certainly rewards for multiple duties often with limited recovery time in between, and makes up for the loss of days off.

Kudos to the training managers for achieving "the right thing to do". Not perfect but a healthy step in the right direction.

Now a hardworking Instructor gets his salary, his training pay, his hourly pay, possibly overtime, and 1000 Dhs for any training duty above 12. (Nearly every duty they do is a training duty anyway). He may only get the minimum days off but this has been compensated for financially. A happy balance in recognising not only Block Time but acknowledging Duties worked as relevant.

So...

Why the double standard? Why are line pilots doing more than 12 duties not likewise being remunerated? It is one obvious way to balance the blatant work differential that can exist and also make up for the loss of days off. The precedent has been set and acknowledged within the training sphere. Arguments that duties are not comparable are dead in the water. A line pilot can only do ULR or Non-ULR duties; a trainer, however, can do those and even more - like simulator, classroom instruction, office days etc.

Duty it seems is duty and it is irrelevant as to what it is. This should not be surprising as it is in any other industry. Time at work is what counts - so much so that workers clock in and out. Temp secretaries submit time sheets despite typing or being on the phone.

The train driver or bus driver does not only get paid when the vehicle moves, he gets paid for the time it stops too! He still maintains responsibilities at work. The block hours used in aviation remuneration is an aberration introduced by the aviation industry to cut pay based on regulation that was designed and intended to account accurately for hours logged to a pilot or aircraft. It does not pretend to make any recognition of work being done. The time the crew spend in setting up the cockpit is acknowledged as a high pressure, work intensive, error prone time. To pretend its not work or should not be financially recognised is preposterous. Airlines will certainly take a dim view of it being badly conducted and constantly reiterate the attendant risks. It is here where potentially catastrophic mistakes can and have been made but those who do it more often are paid less! Likewise a crew reviewing the route and weather are conducting their duties for which they are employed, trained and entrusted. No rational man can claim this is not work.

It seems our industry has been distorted by cost cutting. But there is no need for companies to abandon common sense. It seems that this has prevailed in the Training Department but why not throughout the company?

Nobody likes an unbalanced system or distorted remuneration for their labours. But we seem to have a double standard here. Can anyone enlighten me or perhaps demonstrate why the system is in fact fair because it sure does not look that way?

145qrh
1st Aug 2011, 12:57
TCAS letter stated it was because of a higher percentage of ULR flying, meanwhile back on planet earth - it was simply an excuse to increase his bonus, so don't expect a change.

Oceanic
1st Aug 2011, 13:42
Well written, accurate post. Unfortunately, it all falls on deaf ears. The uneven spread of the work load beggars belief. In each washup meeting it comes up, yet absolutely nothing is done to put the situation right. The situation is unsustainable, just look at the sick list on a daily basis. I only hope the result is not calamitous.

TOGA Thrust
1st Aug 2011, 14:49
Absolutely spot on. Accurate and well reasoned.

We all know it, talk about it, even ask about it in the ever reducing forums where we actually get to speak to our lords and masters.

No clear answers, dithering and stock platitudes are all we get because there is no rational explanation other than pure greed.

SOPS
1st Aug 2011, 14:58
We all know that the "more ULR flying story" meant nothing..it was just lies to justify greed

EK_Bus Driver
2nd Aug 2011, 03:45
An extremely accurate and very well written post Proxy! :D

A must read for all potential EK new joiners and those that are considering Training.

Jetaim
2nd Aug 2011, 16:39
A n increasingly structured system of self serving price tagged individuals living in a moral and ethical vacuum are empoverishing and lowering the life standard of masses of workers under their control to their exclusive and personal material benefit and the one of their masters.This is happening in all economical sectors in civilized countries. Imagine in the Middle East!!!

Dirigible
3rd Aug 2011, 04:19
The often used excuse that there is resistance from above to any changes is just a cop out. There is a duty by theses so called managers to effectively, and safely manage flight operations on behalf of the pilots. Their failure to represent our best interests is due to not having the balls to speak out on the inequities in rostering, the uneven workload and many other issues, particularly where the smallbus fleet is concerned. When the inevitable incident/ accident occurs, they will all go scurrying to their desks to hide behind, and find any excuse to pass the blame on to the pilots. To effectively manage one needs executive ability, clear direction, and the assertiveness to enforce decisions, so clearly lacking. Those with any such ability left the building years ago.

disconnected
3rd Aug 2011, 14:50
I had given up on reading Pprune as many of the threads had little relevance or purpose. If they were any good, they were then hijacked and often broke down into slagging matches between pilots and drifted off topic so did nothing but portray the worst of our profession.

I had pause to rethink when someone emailed me this threat. It seems to be doing the rounds. It gets right to the heart of the matter without offence but raises some good points that I had not given a much thought.

Is does seem unfair when laid out like this. Why the differences? Good question - We must keep asking until we get a credible answer.

Dirigible makes another good point. We often get told that there is nothing our bosses can do. It all comes from above. I think those above hardly know about it and actually trust those below to sort out these problems. Maybe that trust is misplaced.

abZorbatheleak
4th Aug 2011, 05:36
I think a lot of the Flight Ops managers especially JA worked enthusiastically towards reducing the hours. I have been told that AS and even ED objected to the hour threshold being pushed up to 92 in the first place. Unfortunately, all these guys are being dictated to by AAR from above. He seems to meddle with everything, including our rosters, on a day to day basis. A very spiteful, malicious and destructive force indeed.

We all tend to focus on AS, MM and JA as the bad apples because they undersign all the FCI's an memo's but they all have one hand tied behind their backs and have to conform to what that little man above them wants. Thats what happens when you put a non-flyer in charge of Flight Ops.:ugh:

fatbus
4th Aug 2011, 07:03
abZorbatheleak,

you my freind are very correct, MM,JA are on our side.maybe even AS. Just wait til you see whats coming next and its all the fault of AAR.

Instant Hooligan
5th Aug 2011, 06:10
D.E.C'S..........

Antman
5th Aug 2011, 16:54
This maybe???


. AeroPersonnel Global
Wide body Captains* (Non Rated)
Middle East

Our Client, a renowned airline operating in the Middle East, offers a unique career opportunity to step up to the B777 as Captain in world-wide operations. Immediate employment is offered.

Rapid fleet growth offers excellent potential to upgrade to captain within the first three years for candidates who qualify.

Candidates must:
- hold a current and valid ICAO ATPL;
- hold a valid instrument rating;
- hold a valid Class 1 Medical Certificate issued by an ICAO member state;
- have a minimum 7,000 hours total time;
- have a minimum 2,000 hours flying time in one the following categories: Multi Crew, Multi Engine Jet Aircraft above 100,000 kg MTOW;
- valid Class 1 medical;
- must be below age 60 on joining date;
- be fluent in English (minimum ICAO Level 4) with endorsement on license;
- currently flying as a Captain (if not currently flying as captain, last position must have been as Captain).

All non-type rated pilots are required to sign a two year (USD 50,000) bond prior to proceeding for a full type rating conversion course. (USD 30,000 for a short transition course).

Preference will be given to candidates with prior wide body aircraft experience.

Our client offers a comprehensive benefit package including:

- a monthly remuneration equivalent to approximately 10,000 US $ net of taxes based on 70 roster hours per* month;

- fully furnished housing provided by airline;

- loss of license, medical and life insurance;

- education allowance for children;

- forty two days of annual paid leave including Public Holidays;

- full world-wide medical coverage for self and family;

- comprehensive life insurance;

- travel benefits as per airline rules.

Permanent employment is offered.

To apply candidates must e-mail their resume as a MS Word (.doc) or Rich Text (.rtf) attachments at [email protected]. Alternatively, candidates can apply by registering and uploading their resume through our Web site at AeroPersonnel Global (http://www.aeropersonnel.com)

Please indicate reference B777PIC/AZL. Only candidates meeting the above requirements will be contacted.

IMPORTANT NOTE: Resumes in PDF file format are not acceptable as they are not compatible with our computerized recruitment management system.

SOPS
5th Aug 2011, 17:16
That ad does not make sense..is it for DECs, or as it says in the first few lines..rapid fleet growth offers excellent potential to upgrade to captain in the first 3 years.....so do you start as a FO or come as as a DEC?:bored:

BYMONEK
5th Aug 2011, 18:10
Mmm..... it's all in the wording my friend, something that this Company is very good at. Before I applied to EK, they stated in their Flight advert that you get an End Of Service Benefit and there is a Provident fund. Well, yes, but you don't get both, at least not in the way it was presented. And as for the ERP, What a confusing and misleading crock of ****. Anyway, I doubt it's EK as the advert refers to salary based on 70hours? I don't know of anyone who's working less than 90 EVERY month right now and has been for over a year at least. Left seat for sure, right maybe less......but not by much.

Whoever it is, it makes you laugh that they want fluent English (min ICAO 4). Fluent is a 6. You can't be a 4 and be fluent!:ugh:

Your Proxy
6th Aug 2011, 00:25
Hmm. Thread drifting a bit folks. Keep it on track.

Here is another issue that I would like explained. It is both illogical and (I would imagine) boardering on the illegal.

This is one of simulator time not counting towards block time and therefore irrelevant to fatigue.

When a pilot has done his legal maximum of 900 hours he is then put in a silulator (I assume while he rests to be legal to fly again)

This however does not count as either payable work or hours towards his legal limits. (whose very raison d'etre to prevent overtired pilots from being a saftey hazzard.

Where is the logic in this? The simulator is a Zero Flight Time Sim. It is apparently so realistic that we can take a pilot from the sim and put him with fare paying passengers without even experiencing the real aircraft as this has simulated the sights, sounds, noise levels and motions of a real aircraft.

The premise of course being it replicates all the work actions and skill required to fly an aircraft with high fidelity. This aside, the simulator is far more challenging in many cases as the time is spent filled with difficult non-normal situations.

But apparently this has no bearing on your fatigue. You could do a many hours and then go and fly to the legal limit on flying hours and this is considered within reason.

Its ridiculous and I imagine verging on illegal. Certainly not a corner I think any company would want to fight, if it came up in a legal dispute.

And to crown this distorted logic, you would not get paid for the time or overtime in the sim. Its not block hours.

You could be wrung out for 8 grueling hours in a sim but apparently you remain as fresh as if resting at home, and have not lifted a finger in work.

Who supports this, who justifies this, and more worryingly who legitimises this?

If any one of us made deductions and took actions using this claiber of logic while operating on the flight deck, I imagine the luckless individual might wind up seeing the phych dept or visiting the EK clinic while they prepared the terms of dismissal.

Plank Cap
6th Aug 2011, 05:01
Your Proxy,

The concerns you voice regarding sim time being relevant to fatigue issues are well phrased. Sadly the reality is EK are in denial on the issue of fatigue, as evidenced by a recent visit to the clinic.

The doctor there advised that all time off granted as a result of fatigue issues in excess of two days, is now to be reported as sickness, not fatigue. What does this mean? Simply that the company is not interested in collecting any real fatigue data, much less that there is even a real issue on this subject.

All this from a pilot workforce that frequently have rosters of 95 hours a month, in excess of 900 a year and a company scheme that allows factoring on augmented flights. Absolutely correct that simulator duties add to the problem.

Fatigue........? Like most of my colleagues who have given up reporting by ASR, I'm almost too tired to care.............

Kamelchaser
6th Aug 2011, 05:37
Your Proxy,

You're right about the sim not counting for the fatigue issue, but you are paid for any sims that you operate as support (as opposed to your own bi-annual recurrent sim).

It's the support ones that you generally do to keep you busy while you're "resting" and getting your hours back under 900. :hmm:

cerbus
6th Aug 2011, 06:06
If you want to talk about fair let's talk about the currency protection. How fair is it that some pilots make more money than others? My clasmates are making 2500 dhs or more than me. We all work for EK, we all live in Dubai but they make almost 30,000 dhs more a year because of where they come from. Aren't we all one team?
When the dollar is weak as it is now and will be for the foreseeable future some pilots get more money. When the dollar is strong and these same pilots send money home they get more money on their transaction. They are always making more money than me. Not fair at all McGee.

captainsmiffy
6th Aug 2011, 08:03
Well I haven't had ERP for a couple of years now....would like to know if others are! (British, BTW)

woodja51
6th Aug 2011, 11:11
The ERP is designed to compensate for having to send money home - it is capped and gradually over time winds out of the system..

It is one of the few conditions of service they have not tweaked ( unlike others) so frankly it is pretty good that they still do it.

As far as equal work for equal pay - yeah I can see that - however this was a t+c for everyone before they joined so if you wanted you could have joined from a currency that suited you better if you had read the HR manual first I guess ( not sure if it is passport based maybe - which throws that idea but just a thought if it was recruitment base? Not sure of the rule).

If you think it is unfair having some guys on ERP , try being the ones that have had their currency go from a low of 1.9 to one to over 4:1 - and having to send money home to pay home based bills from before joining ...
that hurts more! BTW my pay has gone from just shy of 350 000 AUD to below 230 AUD in sub 2 years - try to cope with that variation with out too much stress when you are stitched up with loans back home..!

Maybe they should just pay us in our local currency when we join... but that is an entirely bigger can of worms!

I get your point but there are two sides to it....

WJA

Kamelchaser
6th Aug 2011, 12:54
The same old argument every year or so.....

I want ERP even though it doesn't affect me.

I want the education allowance even though I don't have kids.

I want a bigger villa like the one my friend with 4 kids has even though I'm by myself.

I want the 350,000AED someone got in medical bills even though I'm perfectly healthy.

What's your point cerbus? You want the money even though none of these things affect you, or you just don't want others to be compensated for things that actually affect them?

cerbus
7th Aug 2011, 07:57
I want it fair and equal for all. I know that is down right impossible especially since we live in the middle east but just a point I will throw out.
A bigger villa does not effect your paycheck. Not getting the education allowance if you do not have kids again does not effect your paycheck.
Receiving an extra 30,000 dhs a year and keeping your money in Dubai is a huge bonus.

Trader
7th Aug 2011, 09:01
Don't know anyone making 30,000/year on ERP. I never have --the best has been about 1500 dhms, with a currency that has appreciated almost 30%.

Kamelchaser
7th Aug 2011, 12:52
So, again Cerbus,

Do you want something you don't need, or do you just want to stop others getting something they actually do need?

I know very few people here who don't repatriate whatever they can to their home countries for mortgages, families etc.

In that respect, the only people not affected by the massive drop in the value of the US peso are the Americans themselves or anyone with a currency tied to the USD.

My currency has appreciated almost 100% in the time I've been here. The small amount of ERP I receive certainly nowhere near compensates, but I'll take it as;

1. I need it.
2. It was in my contract (same as your contract I guess but..again..you don't seem to be affected by the currency fluctuations do you?).

So...stop bleating about something that doesn't affect you fella. You're certainly not getting much sympathy from anyone except those from the good 'ol US of A.

As an aside; EK makes a fortune from a weak USD, so I doubt they care too much about the pittance they hand out in ERP.

Swan Man
7th Aug 2011, 20:05
I am effected by the currency peg because of the (some would call it runaway) inflation in the UAE. I have to pay more for everyday items and am not getting any extra even though my currency is pegged to the $.
Most of the imports I want and buy come from Europe and those products have increased dramatically. It sure would be nice getting some extra money that most pilots are receiving.
Just because "most" pilots receive an item does not make it fair. I need the extra money to Kamel. Do you think you are the only one who needs the extra money living in Dubai. We all know how expensive it is here to live.
I can't imagine your country not going through hard times right now, that is if you come from a 1st world country because most G20 countries are in serious trouble.

Kamelchaser
8th Aug 2011, 08:03
Man, you non-ERP guys just don't get it do you....(actually that's quite funny as you actually don't get the ERP do you:) )

Back to the serious argument...

ERP has nothing to do with the cost of things in Dubai. Never was designed for that, never will be.

If you're worried about inflation to cover your in country costs, then argue for a pay-rise, not an allowance to cover it. (By the way, inflation is a worldwide problem right now, not just here in Dubai).

I would rather give my ERP back and have my home currency affordable; I'd be far better off.

Good luck to those (few) who get ERP and DON'T have mortgages and families to support back in their home countries.

LHR Rain
8th Aug 2011, 18:49
Is one allowed to be from the UK and be against the ERP? At one time I was getting 2375 dhs a month from the currency protection. This was incredibly unfair as not everyone received the extra money. I did mention to TCAS back in the day how unfair it was and should be abolish but to no avail. I did keep the money not matter how unfair it was which I am sure I will get slagged off about it. I couldn't find a worthy charity in Dubai to donate it to so I took the money and donated it to the Red Cross in the UK.
Pilots say it is in their "contract" so the ERP must stay but I will ask when did EK start honouring our contract?

Your Proxy
8th Aug 2011, 19:16
Kamelchaser:

Thank you for your correction on the sim remuneriation. You are quite correct. The fact that this doesnt count to fatigue however remains laughable and if considered logically is simply dangerous and defeats the whole intention on limitations to flight and duty time. A good lawyer would tear it to shreds given some event that made it relevant.

On the ERP issue. First lets understand it everyone.

50% of your salary is protected to up to 15%. The max it can ever be is 7.5% of salary. Hence if you earn 40000 pm it would be 3000 at max. That assumes the base currency continues to rise. It could start at 3000 but because of the rolling average eventually be 0 even though your base currency remained high.

It is fundamentally unfair based on the fact that pilots are essentially international citizens often with interests in more than one country.

My take is it should be worked against a basket of currencies and given to all. The dirham has dropped against almost every currency and that almost proves the point.

But again thread drift.

The issue to return to is the differing policies on remuneration.

Bottom line: In training they reward for amount of duties. On the line they do not.

Grossly unfair. Illogicallly. Indefensible. Discriminatory.

Doesnt look good for a big company. Come on EK. You are good, you have high standards dont stoop to this.

Your Proxy
10th Aug 2011, 16:22
The company has a Fatigue Management System but IMHO it does not cater for the real issues. The analogy would be an aircraft maintenance system that accounted for hours but not cycles. Both are relevant.

If key elements are ignored the system then appears to look responsible and compliant. Exactly how everyone wants it to look as then this absolves responsiblity in an unpleasant fatigue related incident.

I have my self heard managers claim that this or that has been checked against the FMS which showed no problem. It is hilarious when the problem is often clearly obvious to the average man.

Unfortunately anyone who invented an accurate, comprehensive and robust FMS would not find any airline to sell it to!

Hence the best FMS in the industry must be the one that works best for the airline. Anyone with a shred of common sense could probably find enough holes in most FMS's big enough to fly a 380 through.