Muslim Crews During Ramadan

[Airmann]

Do airlines in the ME have any policies regarding having two Muslim pilots flying together during Ramadan? I wouldn't think it would be too safe to have two hungry exhausted pilots in charge of a plane during the end of the day.

[donpizmeov]

Search and you will find thousands of posts from years gone past by those who were also the first to ever think of this.

[Oblaaspop]

Ok Kij, what about arriving at the worst time of circadian cycle ie going to JFK from here on a 13hr flight during daylight AND having low blood sugar due to fasting for 20hrs??

I suggest you do a bit of study into the human body before shooting down a perfectly reasonable question!

Why do some of you guys constantly need to get on the defensive for no reason? It wasn't a slight on religion, rather a sensible point about a serious issue!

BTW I am fully aware that Muslims need not fast whilst travelling, however some F/O's (and Capts for that matter) still chose to do so - NOT sensible IMHO:=

[fatbus]

It's plain dangerous to be fasting while operating any flight !!

[loc22550]

Kijangnim,cool down..i suggest you read a little bit about islam:

Exemption from fasting..

"People in the course of travelling distances about 50 miles or more.
Travelers may interrupt the fasting temporarily for their journey ,i.e when thay are actually traveling,and make up for later, a day for a day"

Unless you consider pilots as non travelers...:hmm:

[Airmann]

I am a Muslim, and I've read the entire Quran on numerous occasions. You're an idiot, if you'd actually bothered to look at the Quran you would see that there are many exemptions on fasting because Allah is not an extremist like many muslims in this day and age.
And the funny part is that so many Muslims are so desperate to fast during Ramadan because they've so neglected their religion during the rest of the year that they become extremist to try and make it up during Ramadan.
And don't get me started about those who fast during the day and then eat twice as much as they would on a regular day after breaking fast.
And these same Muslims who are fasting during flying are the same ones who are drinking, smoking and doing God know what else during the rest of the year (coming back to the point of needing to use Ramadan to cleanse themselves, so they go to extremes). Its pathetic, and its the reason the Muslim world is in the state it is.

[loc22550]

Airmann:ok:

[Airmann]

I am asking the question because although I am Muslim I have only recently graduated from flight school so I haven't had to fly planes with 120 lives in my hands during Ramadan. And I take my job and my responsibility to it seriously, because its the job that God has given me, and fulfilling my responsibilities properly is correct and proper in the eyes of Allah. Being a drunk and neglecting Islam for 11 months of the year and then risking peoples lives for the 12th isn't going to make Him happy.

I pray 4/5 times a day (don't always get up for Fajr :rolleyes:) I'm not a Friday Muslim who doesn't bother to read the Quran or find out anything about his religion and will live his life with a completely incorrect view about his religion and his God because he can't be bothered to read a thing.

I am pathetic? Look at the example of the types of people I mentioned they are pathetic. I asked a question about a real issue and you immediately took it as an insult, why?

[Gulfstreamaviator]

You ask a very good question, and as I live in UAE, I see the situation first hand.
The general responsability of Muslim pilots is excellent. and the travellers exemption is well accepted and understood.

I am more concerned at 4.30 every afternoon when the mad rush for Iftar is underway.

Especially the first few days, and the starvation is most noticable.

Do what your concience tells you, and ignore the rest of PPrune.

glf

[Airmann]

@Kijangnim: I am talking about a serious matter relating to my Religion and my God, your immaturity is a clear indication of what I have said about people who neglect their duty and don't fully take their religion and their God seriously.

@Gulfstreamaviator Thanks, its good to know that most Muslim pilots are sensible in their approach.

Ramadan Kareem to everyone, and to Non-Muslims I know how you guys don't like this month as everything is closed during the day, but I ask you to try to fast during Ramadan as well, it is an exercise in self-control and discipline and hopefully you will understand why Islam asks Muslims to take this month out to refrain from ALL desires from sunrise till sunset.

[Mimpe]

flying well for the sake of all those who trust in you would be the best prayer observance i would think. Thats pretty much the Categorical Imperative of the situation.....but then thats too Kantian I suppose.

people are way too literal

[Oblaaspop]

Kij, you do get awfully upset at the most simple of statements don't you my paranoid little friend?

For your information, about 3 years ago on my JFK flight during Ramadan, the ex-cadet F/O on board did exactly that! Needless to say the Captain he was with categorically refused to let him touch the controls into JFK. Completely irresponsible behaviour from the F/O if you ask me, but then I suppose you'll come up with a smart (in your mind) ass comment about children's TV programs again thereby sweeping the real issue under the carpet because you are not able to come up with good reasoning.

Carry on buddy, you are making yourself look stupid AND bringing down the good reputation of your colleagues (the majority of whom do have a safe sensible approach to fasting) in the process.:ugh:

[Airmann]

Islam is not in reality an extremist religion. The Quran stipulates many occasions where you can fore go fasting ie when traveling, when pregnant, when sick basically whenever it is not convenient and is a threat to your life and those around you. Flying would come under this title.

Unfortunately, Muslims think that their God is unforgiving and ruthless and that they must please him in the same manner that idol worshipers must please their fire breathing gods and goddesses. The ones that believe this are the same ones that don't bother practicing their religion the rest of the year and hence have no clue that Islam is probably the most moderate of religions out of them all. The problem of course that human beings are taking it fully out of context and have become extreme and are ruining the good name in the process.

The Quran stipulates quite clearly that if you miss some days of the fast for GOOD and valid reasons then you can either make it up after Ramadan, at a time that is convenient, or you can feed the poor.

Directly from God:

شَهْرُ رَمَضَانَ الَّذِيَ أُنزِلَ فِيهِ الْقُرْآنُ هُدًى لِّلنَّاسِ وَبَيِّنَاتٍ مِّنَ الْهُدَى وَالْفُرْقَانِ فَمَن شَهِدَ مِنكُمُ الشَّهْرَ فَلْيَصُمْهُ وَمَن كَانَ مَرِيضًا أَوْ عَلَى سَفَرٍ فَعِدَّةٌ مِّنْ أَيَّامٍ أُخَرَ يُرِيدُ اللّهُ بِكُمُ الْيُسْرَ وَلاَ يُرِيدُ بِكُمُ الْعُسْرَ وَلِتُكْمِلُواْ الْعِدَّةَ وَلِتُكَبِّرُواْ اللّهَ عَلَى مَا هَدَاكُمْ وَلَعَلَّكُمْ تَشْكُرُونَ (2:185)

English Meaning:
2:185 (Asad) It was the month of ramadan in which the Qur'an was [first] bestowed from on high as a guidance unto man and a self-evident proof of that guidance, and as the standard by which to discern the true from the false. Hence, whoever of you lives to see [158] this month shall fast throughout it; but he that is ill, or on a journey, [shall fast instead for the same] number of other days. God wills that you shall have ease, and does not will you to suffer hardship; but [He desires] that you complete the number [of days required], and that you extol God for His having guided you aright, and that you render your thanks [unto Him].

Its pretty straightforward and clear, but no one bothers to read it.

[CAYNINE]

... so who is going to walk into the CC briefing and ask who is fasting, then remove them from the flight on safety grounds?

[menikos]

Airmann,

if you're a muslim please watch out your mouth because you making a lot of bad judgement about people you don't even know, as far as I know Allah didn't give you the power of knowing what is inside the heart of people, so please instead of mentionning things like those people are extremists and so go back to the basics of islam and learn what is the good behavior in islam because you are very far from it, no offense but reading you talking about islam shows how deep is your lack of knowledge you even give me the feeling of a guy with an inferiority complex who need to justify that's he's a good muslim and the others the extremists.

All the best for the rest of your career :ok:

[e30m3]

Islam Question and Answer - Ruling on not fasting for a pilot who is on border patrol (http://www.islamqa.com/en/ref/129788)


Some pilots undertake missions for border control in areas where thereis turmoil or wars, and these missions may last six hours or more, divided into two sessions. Sometimes the pilot may be on standby for a longer period, which requires a great deal of effort from the pilots in order to undertake this mission to protect the security of the country and to protect people's lives and property. Is it permissible for them not to fast and is this is an excuse for them?.

Praise be to Allaah.
Firstly:*

If he is one of the pilots who are required to do border patrols and the distance from his place of residence is the distance that makes it permissible to shorten one's prayers -- which is approximately 80 km -- then it is permissible for him not to fast once he leaves the built-up area of his city and if necessity calls for him to break his fast before takeoff, there is nothing wrong with that.*

Secondly:*

If it is less than this distance and he has no choice but to undertake this mission so as to protect the interests of the nation, and he cannot undertake this mission unless he is not fasting, then it is permissible for him not to fast so as to achieve that interest and ward off harm.*

Thirdly:*

Those who go back to their place of residence during the day and are no longer expected to come back on duty for the rest of the day have to do refrain from eating and drinking.*

Fourthly:*

In all cases, they have to make up the fasts later on.*

And Allah is the source of strength. May Allah send blessings and peace upon our Prophet Muhammad and his family and Companions. End quote.*

Standing Committee for Academic Research and Issuing Fatwas*

Shaykh ‘Abd al-‘Azeez ibn ‘Abd-Allaah ibn Baaz,

Shaykh Saalih al-Fawzaan, Shaykh Bakr Abu Zayd*


Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah – vol. 2, 9/ 141

[Mimpe]

How do airlines that are not based in the middle East deal professionally with this contrast? I Wonder if British Airways has a policy on this for example?

[ekpilot]

Airlines located in the parts of the world that are not infected with religious dogma typically have sections in their OM-As stating that fasting is not allowed - for whatever reason. Personally, I would not set foot in an airplane operated by an airline from a muslim country, unless I had access to that particular flight's crew details.
Just curious, Sandhound; did you ever kick an FO off your flight based on his saying he would fast?

[Flying Spag Monster]

In my experience the fasting FO's I fly with don't break the fast because they are travelling. That is because they don't want to make up for it at the end of Ramadan whilst their mates are partying hard during Eid. So that tells me they put their social life ahead of my safety and of the rest of the crew and pax. Oh but no it doesn't! He is fasting for Allah and therefor if anything goes wrong it it Allah's will, nothing we could do about it anyway. A flight deck where rational thought and commonsense are necessities is not compatible with a fatalistic mindset, not matter what the source.

Airmann, to answer your original question, companies might have a policy, but how do they know who fasts and who doesn't? Thank you for forwarding your gods post to pprune, that might be a first but I suggest you are on the wrong forum.

Now back to my spaghetti and Pirate movies before the Mod wakes up....

[Capt Krunch]

IMHO.

for the years I have spent in this region my personal policy has been. If my F/O is fasting thats fine with me and i don't have a problem with it, not that i think it's a good idea. In the end he becomes a flap and gear operator while fasting, nothing more nothing less. Bad luck for him is both sectors are in day light. Having said that, I have never / rarely operated short haul flights and multi sector flights in this region so I cannot speak for those who do.

[menikos]

Hello,

many of you won't notice someone fasting if it's not the month of ramadan, I give you an example we are the 17th of december you have a flight from A to B the guy had a breakfast before the fly you have a reasonable flight let's say 6h go and back, time for having your breakfast the F/O or captain says no thanks I'm not hungry and so, will you think one minute he's fasting of course not but because it's the month of ramadan you all jumped on the safety by saying fasting is dangerous this and that sorry to say that's it's a little bit pathetic.

The good question is if you have a short trip or not, long haul or not etc... if I'm fasting and have a early morning flight return just in the beginning of the afternoon is it safe or not ? let me answer for you it's totally safe, if I have a flight from Doha to Jfk will I fast, let me answer again for you, NO.

Fasting by itself is not a problem but we have to be honest if I'm flying a long haul flight with nothing in my stomach my performance won't be good so I take what the religion offers me, not fasting while travelling.

For all of you who jumped on the question please knows what you are talking about because you don't you are just assuming and when I read you I have the feeling that muslims are completly immature when it comes to safety.

:ok:

[newscaster]

There are many pilots who do fast trying to be holier than thou, and over reactive muslims all approve this. That said no incident to date has taken place due to fasting pilots.

[b0eingjockey]

try having that conversation with a guy a doing a DAC or IST turn around.
"No Habibi... no exemptions..."

[Flying Spag Monster]

fact and common sense Are you kidding me? The source of that "fact" and others of the same genre, was written well before the concept of air travel. (excluding Archangels of course). The relief from fasting that the Koran provides for travellers was to protect them from the physical rigours of the long distance donkey commute without food or water. A fare and humane consideration. Nothing to do with the impaired ability to steer the donkey and crash it into a date palm at high speed. Islam, (possibly to its credit), has made little if any concessions to modernity apart from using PAs on their Mosques, so it is up to the pilot to apply the common sense and facts. These should tell you there is no place in a flight deck for an impaired pilot, whether its from fasting, alcohol or a head cold. Either eat some food, fly at night or stay at home.

[break_break]

Let's not make a big deal here.
I don't care whether or not if my FO is fasting, just had a good lay, sent the wrong mistress text message to his wife, or just lost his entire fortune after picking up some great investment advice from another fellow EK pilot.
I ONLY, and ONLY assess my FO gradually, from reporting till we shut down our last engine, on whether or not he's backing me up competently as a professional pilot.
I do not make a big deal if someone has misjudged his body condition and kept fasting while showing signs of fatigue or lethargy during Ramadan. I'll advise him to consider freshening up and so far, I only had to bring it up once, and taken positively since he knew he could make it up later in his total fasting duration, once he's off flying duties.
I will however, make a big deal, if someone turns up for work with heavy hangover, appeared severely lack of sleep with red eyes, and try to make friendly chats to get away with such irresponsible act.
My point is, it really makes no difference whether or not it's Ramadan. I will assess my crew the same way I do, every single duty day that I'm paid to do so to ensure safest possible outcome of my flight, without preconceptions.