We have not given up on Plymouth Airport yet

[jetsetsimon757]

Hey people come help us support out wonderful airport we need all the support we can get.

Just type in facebook Save Plymouth City Airport..

[jabird]

EGHQ,

The spotter in my wishes you luck.

The architect I trained as tells you 'not a hope'.

Unfortunately, the vultures are already circling. As an operational airport, PLH had the advantage of being so close to the city centre (and I really do think people know it exists). As a closed airport, this advantage make the land valuable for numerous other uses.

You are correct in that you could set up a website for £70 to promote your idea. Or you could invest £15 in a Monopoly set. Methinks the die are already rolling.

[Phileas Fogg]

With website building software already on my PC, a domain registration, 12 months web hosting and 10 email addresses would cost, I could set up a website to save PLH airport for, 70p.

Don't believe in throwing good money down the drain though!

[PlymouthPixie]

I don't have a Save The Airport website (Yet?) But I do have a photos website I built, 2011 is kept updated as of last Saturday but 2010 only has a handful of images on it (not yet completed)

Plymouth Airport PhotoGallery - Home (http://southwestdesign.org.uk/Gallery/)

[Phileas Fogg]

Here's a pic from my archives for you:

http://farm6.static.flickr.com/5125/5379638154_e90dd6a13f_b.jpg

[footster]

Todays Herald
« Thread Started Today at 3:05am »

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PLYMOUTH City Council's Cabinet is being recommended to back plans to shut the city's airport for passenger flights.
Two reports from consultants have revealed there is no operator or airline willing to run the airport or flights, and not enough businesses used it to make it economically viable for the council to underwrite its use.
The Cabinet, when it meets on August 23, is therefore recommended to accept a notice of non-viability, allowing airport operators Sutton Harbour Group (SHG) to close the airport for passenger services.
The Cabinet will also consider further recommendations that the council enter talks with Plymouth City Airport and SHG to secure the airport's continued use for military flying and search-and-rescue on a temporary basis while future options are considered.
There is also a recommendation for the Cabinet to instruct officers to develop the case for better and more regular rail connectivity and infrastructure.
A report also suggests the airport land should be protected from incremental and short-term planning applications until long-term options can be looked at.
SHG, which has held the lease of the airport land since 2000, announced its intention to withdraw as airport operator last December.
And airline Air South West recently announced the end of passenger operations due to lack of demand.
Under conditions of the lease, the council must legally respond to the principle: "Is Plymouth City Airport viable for its principal purpose of a public airport and passenger services on a regular and commercial basis to members of the public?"
The authority commissioned aviation consultants Orien Advisors to see if there was interest from operators in running a downgraded airport.

But despite investigating 12 airlines and 17 airport operators, none came forward.

Orien found none were in a position to make firm commitments to establish services on commercial terms, within required timescales and with sufficient scale to make the economics of operating the airline viable.

The consultants also said there were not enough profitable routes out of Plymouth and the uncertainties and costs of trying to achieve even a modest route network would be a "substantial risk to the council".

An economic study, jointly commissioned by the council and Chamber of Commerce, into the economic impact of the airport and future operating models, found businesses wanted to use the airport, but actual use had been minimal in recent years.

Aviation experts Berkeley Hanover Consulting, which carried out the study, were unable to identify "an economic rationale" for the council to underwrite the commercial risks involved in keeping "any scale of airport operations".

The study highlighted that the economic impact declined sharply after losing Heathrow slots in 1997 and Gatwick slots in 2011.

The short runway severely restricts it to 19- to 50-seater planes, preventing low-cost and holiday charter markets.

Only two short-runway aircraft are still in production, limiting its long term future as a commercial airport.

Economic potential was further constrained by geography and surrounding airports.

Business travellers have adapted travel habits with more than half the businesses preferring better train services to London.

But the consultants said it could be possible to operate a "very limited" passenger airport or a general aviation airfield, broadly cost-covering though unlikely to be commercially profitable.

Cllr Ted Fry, Cabinet member for Planning, Regeneration and Economic Development, said: "We wanted to make sure every possible option had been explored before formally and carefully considering Sutton Harbour's notice.

"We also needed to hear from independent aviation experts about the airport's prospects. Our role now is clear. The Cabinet is being asked to act as a legal check to make sure SHG are correct in their claim that the airport is not working as a commercial venture."

The two aviation reports, together with the findings of the Grant Thornton due diligence exercise on SHG will be taken into consideration by Cabinet members.

[TSR2]

Oh dear, it does not look hopeful. Amen is the word that springs to mind.

[Phileas Fogg]

That report is a load of bollox ...

I understand approaches have been made regarding operating the airport and reinstating air services but, the impression has been given, that a 'back door' deal has already been done and any such approaches are being swept under the carpet:

Only two short runway aircraft still in production?

Well how about the ATR42, the Do228NG the Twotter-400 and the Islander?

That's four short runway aircraft I can think of that are still in production and that's just off the top off my head.

[JSCL]

Berkeley Hanover (spelling?) were not interested in hearing positive news and their report was nothing more than data collection and feedback it seems. Rubber stamps, awful. Approaches have been made and refused to be heard by Berkeley and SHG.

[Skipness One Echo]

What slots did they lose at LGW and LHR? The services were withdrawn by the operator, not the same thing. An "expert" ought not to (un)intentionally mislead the client.

[Phileas Fogg]

It would have been Brymon that were stripped of the LHR slots by their parent company 'BA'.

[footster]

Can anyone put meat on these bones as far as operators wanting plymouth goes possibly by pm ing me with details.
Thanks

[Phileas Fogg]

footster,

On another note take a look at the statements of Berkeley Hanover.

Whoever on god's earth decided that these people are aviation experts when they don't even know of the current passenger aircraft types, currently in production, capable of PLH operations?

They seem to have placed great emphasis on the airport being doomed due to only two such aircraft types being in production!

And of these 12 airlines they approached how many of these currently operate appropriate aircraft types or did they approach Airbus, Boeing, Jetstream, Bombardier etc. operators who, of course, would have absolutely no interest in PLH operations?

This smells of cooking ... 'Cooking the Books'.

[stewmath]

I really dont want this airport to close, i used to live in plymouth for nearly 6 years and i was desperatly hoping to fly into plymouth one day when i have my ppl.

[footster]

Phileas I totally agree with you and there is another part of the statement which stinks and that is:

Orien found none were in a position to make firm commitments to establish services on commercial terms, within required timescales and with sufficient scale to make the economics of operating the airline viable.

Whose timescale Sutton Harbour Holdings.

As I have said numerous times before all Plymouth needs is an operator who knows how to run an airport, not one who plays at it with a hidden agenda.

[Phileas Fogg]

Footster,

And something like a (Y16) Do228 operating airline, perhaps with 4 or 5 aircraft, could successfully operate business and leisure routes (MAN, JER, GCI, ORK, DUB etc.), all these lesser yield routes not currently operated, all on 'W' Patterns, from PLH, NQY and CWL also, PLH could adequately justify atleast 1.5 Do228's operating 6.5 to 7 days per week.

[footster]

Phileas I did hear that apparently airlines where interested but the scale of clauses SHH were puttting on them were totally unacceptable and unworkable. Someone really needs to dig deep and exspose this shambles fopr what it is SHH flexing its muscles and getting what it wants which is the land.

[JSCL]

footster

Why do you want to know who tried to buy the operations?

[footster]

JSCL as this site states it is a rumour network it would be just be intersting to have the knowledge of having the meat put on the bones. I have no other interest other than that. I for one would like to see the airport stay as i have visited it regularly for nearly 41yrs and it is my beleif with what ive read from SHH and others and the rumour network that this is a big con by SHH so it would be nice to actually read what has been said.Im afraid it seems apparent to me SHH have been a bit busy with Pengellys City Council and other vestid interested parties in making sure they have their way.

[JSCL]

Let me fill you in.

Lead researcher at Berkeley Hanover is blood relative to one of the leaders at Plymouth Chamber of Commerce.

Plymouth COC had no interest in serious interested parties and just wanted to put on a front, PCC had no vested interest and told parties to just combat SSH and SSH refuse to let parties past the secretary for anyone seriously interested.

Just names and copies of emails used to put together a total number of interested parties and just rubber stamp it as people were interested but clearly decided it has no future.

[Phileas Fogg]

Footster,

But Roborough would always be handicapped by it's short runway, airliner operations shall, literally, always be restricted to a home based, or local, operator and every other airliner, biz jet, or whatever that goes to NQY or EXT because they cannot operate in/out PLH shall always be lost potential and lost revenue.

If there really is a requirement for an airport in the region then someone should buy up some land, with planning permission, nearer to sea level, perhaps to the east or south east of Plymouth, where nobody wants to build houses, and build a circa 6,000ft runway airport from scratch.

[footster]

I agree Phileas but this is just a case of SHH being greedy and using under handed tactics to get what they want. Its the way they going about it I dont like.

[JSCL]

Or is PCC being clever? 3/4 of revenue from the housing - use that to build a more suitable airport...

[Helen49]

Phileas

Isn't there one there already.....called Exeter?!!

[footster]

JSCL knowing Pengellys City Council like I do that is definately highly unlikely.

[Phileas Fogg]

Helen,

Everybody loves a smart backside however check your geography, I said east or south east, I didn't say north or north east of Plymouth.

Indeed the airfield to the east of Plymouth is mid point between Yealmpton and the A38 and nowhere near Exeter!

[oldpax]

If you have a flight to catch from LHR or GTW early in the morning then you must stay near the airport overnight OR hire a car and leave about 4 AM OR if the sleeper train still runs catch that(about 6 hours!!).So its going to cost you money whichever method you use.I used to hire a car .Of course at one time you could fly into LHR and then BA ran Brymon long enough until they could grab the slots then they got rid of Brymon/BA to South West ,clever ploy!I no longer live in Plymouth but would still like the choice of flying there than travel Great Western on a crowded train where you must stand for 3 hours!!!

[Devonair]

There is an alternative flying from Bangkok to Exeter with Etihad via Manchester. I used it last year from Sydney and found it a great service. Flybe's codeshare with AF may also allow connections to SE Asia via Paris CDG.

[Phileas Fogg]

EGHQ,

For some 30 years, that I have been aware of, the biggest offput to punters has been these two stage flights and it was only because Brymon, then ASW, had a 'DHC' qualified maintenance dept, DHC6 then DHC7 then DHC8, which ultimately proved to be their downfall, there are 30 (ish) seater aircraft out there .... "Can't consider those, they're not manufactured by DHC, we'd need to pay for new maintenance approvals and training".

If anyone is on local BBC please make a point that the supposed appointed experts could have learned more just by reading a spotter publication ... only 2 airliners, capable of PLH operations, currently in production ... my ass!

[Peter Gristwood]

Good luck with the Save Plymouth campaign.

I do have one thought, though. If it is to become a GA centre, the airport does need to be rather more customer-focussed and less bureaucratic than it has been. I have always enjoyed visiting the area, but the airport is not exactly welcoming.

The restaurant is more like a station buffet and the need to go through a full-blooded security check on departure was a real irritant.

That said, there would be a lot of goodwill towards the airport if it became a real GA-friendly site

[footster]

It seems that in the last hour PCC have agreed to SHH closing Plymouth City Airport.

[TSR2]

Rumour on the ground is that we could be winning it!

The problem with rumours is ....... some are sound and some are .....

It seems that in the last hour PCC have agreed to SHH closing Plymouth City Airport.

[JSCL]

It seems that in the last hour PCC have agreed to SHH closing Plymouth City Airport.

Not true at all.

[footster]

JSCL i had a phone call from someone at the council meeting and they confirmed it.

[JSCL]

I know the contents of the meeting - it is said that unless an new operator is found by December, it will close.

Plenty of time to find a new operator and they are hunting.

[PlymouthPixie]

I know the contents of the meeting - it is said that unless an new operator is found by December, it will close.

Plenty of time to find a new operator and they are hunting.

Not true at all.

[footster]

I have been in contact with at least one operator who would like to take up Plymouth and possibly run the airport but SHH timescale is rediculous so as no deal can be done

[jabird]

footster,

We know ASW / T3 have left a gap in the market at PLH. One of the oldest sayings I learnt in business was 'there might be a gap in the market, but is there are market in the gap'?

Of all the airlines I know of with UK passenger ops, there are very few who have a business model based on aircraft small enough to squeeze into PLH. Airlines don't need much notice if there are rich pickings to be made.

Airlines and airports are separate businesses - I don't think they usually work well when both have the same parent - but again, if the airport was a going concern, there has been plenty of time for another operator to express interest.

I'm also sceptical about an operation using twotters, or similar sized aircraft - they are great puddle jumpers, but how can they compete over land which is relatively well traversed by (non-APD paying) road and rail links?

[Phileas Fogg]

The only reason to operate an unpressurised and noisy Twotter in the south west is if ISC is on one's route network ... if one has no plans to operate to ISC then operate something pressurised and with wheels that go up and down. :)

[footster]

With the little knowledge I have of SHH's financial woes without including ASW and the airport they were in trouble. It seemed that the airports lease left them a big get out of jail clause which was why everybody down here were scepticle when the announcement of the lease was publicised and those rumours still hadnt let up untill they came clean with the closure proposal. And as they say there is no smoke without fire and now we have the fire.

[Groundloop]

Have you approached Martin Halstead? He can usually come up with weird business cases for niche market airlines that some think are believable.:ok:

[jabird]

Phileas,

Those twotters are a lot of fun :8

But as we know, the airline business isn't about fun, it is about taking people where they want to go, and generating suitable yields in the process. Sorry, even that is the wrong way round!

[Phileas Fogg]

jabird,

Twotters are not fun if one is trying to hold a conversation nor have a sleep nor when transitting thru cloud nor when an engine disintigrates and the Captain makes mention of something like "Mayday" before doing a dirty dive in to RAF Odiham :)

But it was quite fun, in the old days, riding around in the RHS's of Brymon Twotters, I recall one summer's afternoon, still air conditions, some 12 fare paying pax down the back, the Captain needed to bounce us to a condition of airborne off the old ISC grass runway that had a hump in the middle, then we did a low level flyby past my uncle & aunt's cream teas cafe on the Helford river, and basically did a tour of the beaches all the way to PLH where the Captain disregarded the tarmac strip in favour of the grass'.

The fare paying passengers loved it :)

And then there was an incident involving the PLH firemen, the 'steam rollering' of the PLH tarmac and the tail of a, dry leased to Brymon, Loganair Twotter ... Bill Bryce was on crutches after surgery at the time, the gear stick of the roller came off in the fireman's hand, he jumped for his life, as the steam roller chimney went clean through the underside of the Twotter tail, Bill Bryce went so ballistic he jumped up, forgetting he was meant to be on crutches, and promptly fell ass over tit.

And we got paid for this entertainment. :)

[jabird]

They are one of the few aircraft where pax can see right through the cockpit and enjoy the view ahead. When landing on a postage stamp like SAB, that is a pretty major bonus. But even if that route does attract a few spotters, its main reason for existence seemed to be to serve locals jumping between the two islands so they could save on their car tax!

[Phileas Fogg]

jabird,

Yes I don't fault the Twotter for less than 800m and/or unpaved strips and in the old days, with PLH's then 2,500ft (ish) or less runways, they needed DHC products.

But PLH has long since been a longer runway and able to accommodate the likes of ATR42's, Do328's, Do228's and so on.

Trouble is that ASW stuck with DHC 50 seaters, probably because the beancounters figured they were cheaper, per seat, to operate hence the combined PLH/NQY services ... if only the beancounters had listened to the public grumbles of the last 25+ years, to the effect, that they'd rather take the train than route, as applicable, via PLH or NQY en-route.

[jabird]

Yes, but a smaller frame still takes up one slot on LGW's busy runway, and there is still the journey into central London to consider. Less of a concern at other UK / IE airports, but I'm not sure PLH could have survived without LGW?

[GROUNDHOG]

I fly on a twotter several times a year, going on it again soon and it doesn't need any runway at all! It could easily land at Plymouth, don't need the airport. Oh and it could land in the middle of Cardiff, do a service to Pembroke, maybe St Catherine's Dock in the centre of London.... etc etc....
Now that is my kind of airline.....

[Phileas Fogg]

jabird,

In the old days LGW was served by Brymon Twotters, not only from/to PLH/EXT but also from/to BHX and EMA.

I recall being in the RHS on finals for LGW one day, we had a screaming headwind, it seemed to take us ages just to fly past the staff car park ... but we were able to do a PDQ exit at the 2nd turn off after landing.

Just as an example, Scot/Suckling Airways seem to do very well with 30 seaters in/out of LCY, KLM were operating F50's in/out of LHR on the RTM route and I'd suggest a 50 seater at LHR to be more outrageous than something like a 19 seater at LGW.

[Phileas Fogg]

GROUNDHOG,

A Twotter couldn't land in the middle of Cardiff ... It could land at EGFC though :)

[JSCL]

A problem I see now are too many amateurish individuals and or groups hoping and expecting PCC to hand them the lease with council support on a plate, it's not going to happen. We need less unsupported proposals and a big support for a realistic supported and well funded proposal.

If PLH is going to be saved, let's save it for the long term future.

[GROUNDHOG]

The second sentence of Jabird's post 42 is spot on.

I can think of several 'airports' that are quite profitable with barely any movements at all...the airport and any airline based or flying into there are not the same thing at all.