Is Australia its own Worst Enemy?

[nomorecatering]

Just watched a program on TV on great ships of the world. They highlighted a car ferry, a huge wave piercing catamaran. Lo and behold, it was built in Hobart by Incat. I;d heared fo them but didnt realise that they were such a big player in ship building, even building ships for the US Navy.

So it got me thinking.

Rivierra Yachts - world class high end boats for the rich.

Holden and Ford Aust build cars unequaled at the price point.

Qantas - used to be the world leader in service, route network, aircraft operations, IT etc etc.

Gipsland Aero, aircraft designed and built in out own back yard.

Medical technology, industrial technology. etc etc.

We Aussies are a pretty clever lot...........sometimes.

So why arent these sort of companies household names, and supported by the government. A government that actively encourages business development and the creation of wealth.

Look what brazil does with racing drivers alone. A third world country has the 3rd biggest aircraft manufacturer in the world.

And our beloved government....all it can do is introduce a carbon tax, something that we dont want, dont need, and wont workanyway, but with a huge beuracracy to nail companies who dont report correctly their emissions.$1.1 in fines for non compliance I'm told.

Maybe its time to abandon Australia and head overseas.

[OZBUSDRIVER]

Cultural cringe left over from colonial days. Basicly, we in the antipodes were only supposed to export raw materials...not new technolgy.Still goes on!:ugh:

[Fred Gassit]

Think you'd find that some of the companies you mentioned have been supported for a long time, by successive governments -a policy I support incidentally.

I would love to see us move up the value chain from rocks.

[bob johns]

Too many.left wing clapped out politicians go to Geneva after getting booted out of their electorates after normal elections .These turds do more damage to this country than can be immagined .In1999 there were something like 3000 UN declarations signed by these people into our law without reference to our parliament.Could we sack the UN? I think we must . I was a canditate for both state and federal seats in the late 90 s and asked the question ,is there in Canberra a department of Deconstruction.?
Who are our leaders (?)selling out to? I would support any govt that would put Australia First and to hell with the rest

[FinallyTheTruth]

So it got me thinking.

Rivierra Yachts - world class high end boats for the rich.
Holden and Ford Aust build cars unequaled at the price point.
Qantas - used to be the world leader in service, route network, aircraft operations, IT etc etc.
Gipsland Aero, aircraft designed and built in out own back yard.
Medical technology, industrial technology. etc etc.Shame it didn't get you Googling instead.

Incat - heavily assisted by state and federal governments for years.
Holden and Ford (both owned overseas and have been for years, but anyway) - heavily subsidised, as is Toyota and as was Mitsubishi.
Qantas - It was Government owned, for God's sake.
Medical Technology - You mean like Cochlear, or CSL, both of which get or got huge assistance from the Govt.

You don't need to like the Government - this one or any other - but don't write rubbish.

I'm sure Bob would like to see tariffs and a massive return to protectionism. I've not checked but that was the One Nation policy at the time as I recall. Tariffs cause trade wars, drive up prices, suppress production, and stifle capital infusion. But this was the same party that thought if we don't have enough money we shouldn't borrow - we should just print more.

We do export a lot of rocks - we have a lot of them to export. But our third largest export industry after Iron Ore and coal is in fact education (it bounces around a bit but is usually 3rd or 4th - depends on the value of gold). All those Indian students so derided in this forum and their mates from overseas coming here to study.

Don't abandon Australia just yet. Where would you go? The US? Greece? The UK? Spain? Where are their economies at?

Australians - all think this is the greatest country on earth, but everything is crap. Stop talking the place down.

[Rondair]

Touché or check-mate?

[onetrack]

You blokes haven't done much research in the boat-building dept, have you? Or is it that the Left Coast doesn't appear on the radar of Right-Coasters? - who mostly appear to believe that the Left Coast is a blighted, sandy outpost of civilisation, that sports a greater population of kangaroos and emus than people?

Look up Austal. Yes, that same Austal that is a world leader in ferry and large troop transport vessels. So much so, that the Americans beat a path to our door, and have given Austal a huge chunk of U.S. military ship-building contracts (Littoral Combat Ship).
A large number of the European ferries currently in operation, are Austal-built.

A company that has never had to rely on the Govt support tit for its existence. A company that stands head and shoulders above any other boat building company in the world, for its advanced designs and ideas, superior construction, and performance.
A boat builder that has now opened a shipyard in America to meet the requirements of the U.S. military contract. Lets hand out some well-earned kudos where they're due.
We don't just dig up minerals here in the West, you know... even though Australias balance of trade is looking VERY healthy because of it.

That same sneered-at "digging up rocks", just happens to support a large number of pilots... not to mention a vast array of support industries such as the locomotive and rail industry, vehicle suppliers, mining supplies, accommodation manufacturing, road builders, earthmovers, cleaners, truck drivers... you name it.
In my middle-of-the-road suburban (5kms from the city) residential street, at least 20% of the people in this street rely on the mining industry to pay their mortgage and feed their kids.
That's nothing to be sneezed at. A lot of people have got very wealthy just being involved in mining support industries.

The NW Shelf of W.A. is currently the largest supplier of Natural Gas in the Southern Hemisphere. Shortly, the NW shelf gas will exceed any other gas supply area in the world. We supply gas to the huge industries and populations of China, Korea, Japan and a dozen other SE Asian nations.
Australias balance of trade is also VERY healthy because of NW Shelf gas. This industry is also a huge supplier of wealth to Australians, in the same form as "digging up rocks".

Manufacturing is a fickle industry, that has never supported Australia. We rode on the sheeps back, and grain, for a hundred years.
Then all that changed, when the rest of the world became less dependent on us for wool and wheat, and farming came under huge economic pressure, along with droughts and floods.

Manufacturing played a modest role in Australia from the late 1800's to the 1960's. That was done on the back of high tariffs and Govt intervention... not to mention a massive inflow of foreign capital (mostly American).
International Harvester, Ford, Holden, Chrysler... all started with vast amounts of American capital, aided by Govt assistance. Yes, those big American companies got lots of Govt money, and the fat profits that went with Govt support, and pent-up demand.
All that's changed too. China is now the worlds manufacturer. Forget about large-scale manufacturing in Australia, it is a niche business nowadays, and will be for the foreseeable future.

Our foreseeable future relies on minerals and gas production, with agriculture lagging a very distant 3rd, and manufacturing a very distant 4th. We can produce technologically-advanced ideas... but the products will be built in China.
The Atomic Absorption Spectrometer was an advanced (for the time) CSIRO idea, and produced by us for the rest of the world. The time of AAS machines is now gone, bettered by newer and more advanced technology.
The world is a highly competitive, ever-changing marketplace, and communication of ideas is instant in this Internet age.
We will produce technologically-advanced ideas in the future.. but imagining that we will be able to build a huge industry and massive wealth around them is nonsense.

The greatest thing that any Aussie Govt can do is invest substantial capital and support into the CSIRO. Research support is what makes a nation stay ahead of the curve.
America and numerous other nations have invested heavily in research in the last 50-80 years, but America and many of those other nations have now reduced their support in research areas, mostly because they took the easy path, led by treasonous corporate leaders, and merely shifted their manufacturing, jobs, (and their technology) offshore... in the name of short term gain.
The hens are coming home to roost for those nations (America in particular)... but unfortunately for those myopic leaders, it's not hens that are descending from the sky... it's vultures...:suspect:

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Austal Ships is under one of the inbound points for Jandakot, I remember looking at that one they built for Greg Norman! :eek:

AS for this government they are not interested in creating wealth, they just want to redistribute other peoples'. Lucky they have Western Australia's "rocks" to prop the rest of the country up :mad:

[The Green Goblin]

Austal Ships is under one of the inbound points for Jandakot, I remember looking at that one they built for Greg Norman!

AS for this government they are not interested in creating wealth, they just want to redistribute other peoples'. Lucky they have Western Australia's "rocks" to prop the rest of the country up

Funny they used to call it shipyards, now boatyards. What do they build at Austal Ships? Boats or Ships?

:ugh:

[Hasherucf]

For all the the rock digging we are doing in northwest WA we arent putting much infrastructure back into it. Mining companies do most of the investing in such things as rail and road. Anyone who has lived up that way knows housing is expensive health care services are low , As the saying goes 'If in pain get on the plane'.Utility's are struggling to keep up with the pace of development.

Would be great to have an additional city in the NW where housing was affordable and we encouraged other industry's . So when the rocks have gone we have something tangible to hang our hats on..... other than holes in the ground.

[Frank Arouet]

A winner we gave away through lack of federal cash or enthusiasm to keep it in the country was Victa. given to the Kiwi's who then sold it back to us.

Why invest in industry in Australia when we can all dabble with "hot air shares" that don't really produce anything, employs nobody, except bureaucrats and sends our wealth overseas instead of giving it to the poor reffo's who come here for the freebies.

Anybody want to buy a harbour bridge? (or an airport).

[Wally Mk2]

I think we are all getting pretty annoyed at the way this country is being run but unless someone holds a gun to the heads (figuratively speaking) of those that take our money (taxes, the Govt) off us & spend it willfully then we are doomed as a strong long term healthy nation.

Australia really is the best country in so many ways but we only have one real asset.....POTENTIAL..........but we shall never realize it:sad:


Wmk2

[Frank Arouet]

It's because it's the best country in the world others would take it from us, by stealth or force, given half the chance.

But, like aviation, who cares?

[PLovett]

Frank Arouet, its far cheaper to trade than invade. The allies in WW2 required nearly 5,000 vessels to cross just over 125 miles of water to reach a part of France that was closely attached to the rest of the country. Take a look at what would be required to invade Australia. In reality you don't need to invade to control. All that is required is to control the trade routes, i.e. S. E. Asia.

[yowieII]

GG, I believe the name change was due to the large number of foreign students operating at JKT

[onetrack]

GG - Well, Austal used to just build boats... now they build stuff that's big enough to be called ships. Where's the "line in the sand" difference? Buggered if I know. Maybe Cap'n Drapes can fill us all in on the difference?

Hasherucf - You're spot on with your statements. With the wealth coming out of Australias ground, we should be building water and power infrastructure, cities, and all the long-term requirements needed for the expanded population in 50 years time.
I think it's disgraceful that the number of imported luxury vehicles has soared to vastly increased levels in recent years... this is just one of many indicators, that we are swapping our finite wealth, for manufactured disposable goods, that will be just landfill in 10 yrs.

Unfortunately, we have a country run by politicians, not Statesmen or Stateswomen. The difference between them? Politicians make ad-hoc decisions and plan on the run... with the Party faithful the primary beneficiaries... and decisions made with an eye to winning the next election. Statesmen and Stateswomen make sound decisions and instigate long-term plans, for the benefit of the country and its citizens in the future.

To put it into aviation context... if Australia was an aircraft, it would become airborne without a flight plan... take off without a meteorological check, be flown by pilots with little control skills (but smooth voices on the RC)... and the pax would have no idea where they will end up. Fortunately for the poorly-skilled pilots, about 30% of the pax are apathetic about their pilots skills, and their destination.

[bob johns]

This looks like a good thread.Finally the truth has all the skills of a clairvoint in deducing that I was a One Nation candidate in the late 90s as I use my own name and not a psudenym. Real rocket science mate. Two campaigns in 6 months,Gwydir and Barwon around 23% of the primary vote in each ,scared the **** out of both incumbents, but that ,12843 hrs in steam driven aeroplanes in 5 countries a master grade in many years of competition rifle shooting and 50 buck will buy a carton of piss in the bush where I now live trying to make a quid out of cattle Wasnt going to bad until some f---wit went and blew the live cattle industry up the spout . We quit wheat growing years ago when we decided we could no longer continue to donate 1000 ton of good quality grain to the AWB at .$100 a ton and see it sold in places like Iraq for $1400 US That is why I would like to see a govt in this country that will look to its own people first. I was always.taught as a kid that charity starts at home .Its all very well to look outside to help the less fortunate than we are but we must remember who produces the food and fibre for own domestic consumption because in my own experience ,mate .there aint any good samaratins in Asia

[JMEN]

:\ Not to mention GA not Aussie anymore...

Following the majority acquisition of GippsAero by Mahindra Aerospace earlier this year a great deal of progress has been made in all areas of the company and there will be a great deal more happening in the New Year.

I mean great with the new aircraft being built, however anything Aussie that makes it seems to disappear offshore anyway!

Aussie the land of opportunity, the land of the battler, the land of the can do, the land of huge taxes, of, well lets not get started shall we!

By choice I live OS and love it!

[Frank Arouet]

PLovett;

Invading Australia by force is not an acheivable option. You would require at least one Armoured Division and there is nowhere to land them plus maintain their logistical support. (I can debate this by PM if you like. I am a retired Army Officer).

I mentioned the matter to concentrate the mind on how serious our invasion by stealth is. And that is happening now.

control the trade routes, i.e. S. E. Asia.

You mean like the people smugglers routes?

BTW, I didn't think the Channel was 125 miles wide, but you do illustrate the point I made in para 1. It's not just the landing, but maintaining the physical lines of communication. Oh, and the last free sea lane left in the World is The Southern Ocean.

[HarleyD]

What a bunch of whinging, whining, moaning, paranoid xenophobic do-nothings you lot are.

If in doubt do not research anything, just Blame the Gummint, especially if it is a Labour one. Get on pprune and pillory whomever the Murdoch media has demonized recently!

Little Johnny did more than his fair share of sabotage to Australian manufacturing by removing R&D incentive (business welfare I think he called it) and signing us up to a Free Trade Agreement with the US. FFS! do you think that the yanks sign up to anything that is not absolutely in their interest. FTA is farcical when it come to Australian side. nothing fair or free about it.

Where is the serious investment in manufacturing by Australian corporates? - No where, short term optimized dividends rule with no vision for the future. any number of local corporates could have snapped Gippsland Aeronautics up for peanuts, but none tried, it was too easy to play short term paper games on other markets. GA needs major funding to dvelop and promote the foreshadowed product line, if redesin=gning and manufacturing the Nomad is still on the cards, as previously announced. Mahindra is a huge company who have made a serious investment for the long term according to the media releases of that time. At least at this point in time they are pouring money INTO and this Australian based company, not ripping it out. We will watch and see.

This is not a political issue as some self interested bigots would like to convince others of. Australia is f#ckin huge and has a few people living around some of the edge bits. Economy of scale is not favourable and the tyranny of distance is a serious impost on industry. The seppos have huge protectionism at every level in every industry, (a major form of socialism, although strongly biased toward their major industrialists), large population, major regional centres of population and industry/business and access to cheap energy and other resources.

Another thing that the yanks do is buy their local products and be proud of it! whet do we see here, especially on pprune is heavily biased, prejudicial statements about our local aviation products in particular, GA8 - slow, crap seats (safest ones in the world apparently, but that doesn't count) Nomad, slow, crap seats and .....wait for it....A Widdowmaker!!!.... the ABC and the murdoch press really did a number there. The biased, unfounded and dis/misinformative sound bites are is still regurgitated by others here, who know no better,on the Nomad thread.

The 'Government' can help foster Australian industry by just buying, or using, Australian in many cases, in fact it is about the ONLY real way to support local manufacturing, but we have such a hideous cultural cringe that we would rather sh!tcan collins subs, bushmaster vehicles and our own local aircraft amongst ourselves than to take the opportunity to push local products as a matter of course, and buy them whenever practicable. this promotes development and research and helps strengthen all these industries. This can then enable the local products to EXPORT, which is where the money really is. We do not have a significant local market to support manufacturing at competitive price but Australian ingenuity and inventiveness is a resource that is our biggest asset and is often well worth the money. Then it all comes back to the bean counters and people like GA, with their aircarft certified to the latest standards, have to compete with US manufacturers who are still building the same tired old designs to their old grandfathered, standards, but cheaply, cessna even manufacturing in china now. Projects like JSF and that stupid, stupid navy helicopter, as well as countless many other procurement debacles show that we don't always get such a great deal when we ask the USA to help us out. The South Africans, the Swedes and the Israelis develop and use their own products and as a consequence have innovative indigenous industries as a consequence, although for widely differing politico/economic reasons.

Use your power for the forces of goodness and niceness instead of the forces of vitriol and misery. Stand up for your local products, next tender you apply for, quote on a brand new Airvan (still a fully Australian designed and manufactured product), instead of a clapped out old 182/206 for that State Government contract, because the local product is better, safer and more efficient. Talk the talk and convince them that this is a better option, despite the higher associated initial costs.

I bet you don't. It is cheaper and easier go in with a cut throat price, whiteant the local industry and then blame the tree hugging, lefties in Canberra. Grow up, you are the problem, not the shining light with the solution. You are most likely driving a toyota, wearing chinese manufactured clothing and have a house full of imported appliances. Look around yourself, what are YOU doing to help ANY Australian manufacturing business? I will be happy to be proved wrong.

HD

[Frank Arouet]

FFS;

signing us up to a Free Trade Agreement with the US.

Who have this lot signed us up for? Since when did the UN become the World Government? Since when did Howard mandate a redistribution of the wealth? When did Howard do a 4000/800 swap in illegal immigrants? Who floated the Australian Dollar? Why do we have Dyslexics on Invalid Pensions? Who stopped the live cattle trade? Who wants to shut down all the coal mines? Who did a deal to govern illigitimately with a mob off red ragging commo's? Who agrees we need a licence to have a bet on the Melbourne Cup? Who..................

Oh! bugga, it's you isn't it?

Please come to our next Murray Darling water plan discussion. I'm sure you'll get your minute of fame. :yuk:

[Andy_RR]

One reason we have no manufacturing industry is our interest rates that are kept deliberately high to make the Aussie dollar valuable enough to the world for us to be able to afford our fancy BMWs, Audis and iPhones.

In any manufacturing industry that counts, you will invest several million dollars of capital per employee, so while you're competing with China, US, Japan, Europe in this sector, where their capital cost savings dwarf any wage cost differential, you have no chance in Australia.

Of course, wage costs and carbon taxes are also a negative factor, but are individually not the most significant factors.

[M14_P]

Hey you Aussies do alright. I mean, you came up with the rotary Washing Line, I mean, where would we be without those? :)

[Frank Arouet]

A bit of Baaaaaaaaaad luck you didn't think of it first.

PS.

Why can't I buy anything, like gum boots on Ebay in NZ dollars. Everything is in $AUS.

[bob johns]

TO J MEN come home if youv e got 250 hrs one of the majors might have an FO slot for you. On the other hand stay put in ME on mega bucks and good luck to you !.Harly D could .nt agree more Since flying gave me up I been eking out a living on the land and the only decent machine Ive got on the place is a Chamberlain tractor built in Welshpool WA in about 1965 .still runs 2ltr of oil in 12 hs running and 9 ltrs of fuel an hour .Taken over by JD years ago.And now in Australia we dont even make tyres to fit a bloody wheel barrow.God only knows that if the Chinks get the ****s with us is where the hell are we going to get socks and jocks for the troops not to mention other hardware that we made here 50 years ago Im sure someone will have a smart answer. for the old trogdilite dinosouar but dont rely on help from anyone but our own good .Aussie selves...As I mentioned somewhere earlier that there aint no good samaratans in Asia.

[jas24zzk]

Harley D..... Love your posts, always well thought out....

The murdoch press...hmm We buy the Herald Sun here, and I am no longer permitted to read it over dinner anymore, Unless I only read 50/50....something to do with anger levels.

I ain't left nor right, I swing my vote accordingly, much to the horror of my grandmother.

I love this country, but I often feel like packing up and shipping out. Our inane ability to denigrate anything Australian makes me very :mad: angry!

Look at the lambasting Christine Nixon is copping (....I can't stand her!!!) She did some great things in Vic-Pol, and some not so great ones, but at least she had the ballz to challenge the status -quo criminality that existed in the force. And for that she is copping it over the fires for doing her job the best possible way she could have......by making sure everyone was doing their jobs, had everything they needed (well where does one conjur up another 1000 firebombing a/c) and got the hell out of their way. No way in hell she could have stayed in the emergency centre and micro managed the affair, as it seems the murdoch press thinks she should have.


To the airvan/nomad doggers........... can you do better? go for it!. One guy picked on it for the trims coming off in the hot sun....hmm Someone please name me a type that did not have a quirk that wasn't discovered/rectified until many were in service, and some of those 'quirks' are dam dangerous (read..i am thinking crashna seat rails)

Dunno, but i always see great aussie stuff, pissed on by fellow australians until the point comes no-one wants to buy it and the company gives up or goes offshore.

Successive Australian Governments have supported the Australian Aircraft Manufacturing industry right up until the Nomad project went ballz up. Its a roll call of successful aircraft, if not designed here, at least purchased and manufactured here under licence, dating at least back to the Wirraway (i can already hear the screams that it was a diff a/c from the Texan/Harvard...but its design was such that licence fee's were still paid), P-51, Vampire, Sabre, Macchi, Mirage, Hornet....just to name a few. We all know the problems with the Nomad were not insurmounable......otherwise why would anyone wish to return it to production, but the media cry over its faults led to the projects downfall, and may yet again. We CAN do it in this country, but we as a whole won't let ourselves be successful....

rant on pause....


Jas

[HarleyD]

Hey, some of you guys just do not get it.

My politics is really of little concern, and i am absolutely not a card carrying member of ANY political party or organization. if anything i may be a centrist, but that is not of relevance here. In these fora it seems anyone that is not a hard over conservative must be a relative leftie and tarred as a commo. that is certainly not me. I said what i said to attempt a slight amount of balance due to the overwhelming preponderance of irrelevant political commentary that was hi jacking the thread. My background is in aviation and manufacturing, not placard waving and sound bite chanting. I have visited aviation and aviation related manufacturing facilities in several continents, and have some idea of the real issues.

When I say Government, I mean the Government, NOT the ALP. many governments of various ilks have come and gone, where is Australian manufacturing, struggling without a doubt, but with a few notable exceptions. They in general do not depend on the public purse to support them, they do it on their own.

None of the parties are snow white or have all the answers to the original question.... not labour .... not the Libs....not the nats....or (perhaps especially) the greens.. They are ALL self interested and despite the public mouthings, will follow their own agenda. If you think Super Tony will save the manufacturing world from the Evil Julia, you will be disappointed, or deluded,. as far as manufacturing goes they are interchangeable.

Julia is just a bus driver at the wheel of a bus full of noisy children, soon the bus will be driven by another driver with a different bunch of shouting, scuffling snotty faced children form another school, different color uniforms, but still just a bunch of self interested, self centered kids fighting over play lunch and their turn on the monkey bars. They are not interested in where the bus comes from or who built the bus. that would only happen when they have to walk to school, then they do a lot of complaining, until they get on the new bus.....then its back to what they know best.

The industry is the industry, stop blaming 'the government' for not saving an industry that can only survive on its merits..There will always be developing economies eager to exploit the low priced labor to which they have access, and to where our large corporations will ship out our manufacturing heritage to make their 'bottom line' look better for a few years. this trades on the established brand's reputation for a while, but ultimately the brand will fail as quality declines, though the retail price remains the same. others will just prefer to import cheap goods without an expectation of quality, and retail them cheaply, provided the consumer is happy with the perceived value for money.

If you want a strong and prosperous manufacturing industry here in Aus, buy Australian products, use Australian products, promote Australian products and encourage your sphere of influence to support our local products (and produce). don't say one thing and do the opposite.

If you want to discuss Australian products and manufacturing, do it, but to leap to the facile and simplistic conclusion, that this is all down to a particular political party gives them credibility for a level of control or influence that is way beyond the reality.

HD

[HarleyD]

Anyone who is interested in how the UK aircraft manufacturing industry went from hero to zero in less than 20 years may enjoy this:

Empire of the Clouds: When Britain's Aircraft Ruled the World: Amazon.co.uk: James Hamilton-Paterson: Books

I just read it on the way back from business in the UK and Europe.

HD

[Frank Arouet]

Julia is just a bus driver at the wheel of a bus full of noisy children

You forgot to add the bus is out of control, the wheels are about to come off and there is no willingness on her part to use the brakes.

The industry is the industry, stop blaming 'the government'

Industry has been throttled by government indifference, interference, bureaucratic red tape, over-regulation, "level playing fields" and globalisation. Now there is a hot air tax to include in staples and that concept alone forces us to trade with a handicap on a "less than level playing field".

No, you can't blame industry or Abbott for this mess. This happened because there is about 49% of the voting population appear to be ignorant to history associated with The Labor Party, their lies and monentary mismanagement.

The "buck stops" with this current government.

[Worrals in the wilds]

The State and local governments aren't helping either. Anyone else here who is involved with a small business (whether in manufacturing or otherwise) will know that the state charges have skyrocketed over the past few years, to the extent that a lot of businesses are becoming unviable.

The number of idiotic licenses you have to apply and pay for (paperwork and ready cash) to simply operate is staggering. None of them make anything safer, greener or more efficient, they're just money spinners for the States to cover their beureaucratic blow-outs.

There was something in the local paper this weekend about how less than fifty cents of every dollar allocated to Queensland health spending makes it out of George Street. Half the health money is funding flunkies, paperwork and beaureaucratic crap. No wonder there are no beds available and people spend hours parked in an ambulance before they can get into casualty.

[HarleyD]

Frank:

do nothing but moan whinge and cling to right wing dogma...:=...boring

Blah Blah Blah ...dooom, gloom. blah blah...bad julia, nasty julia Blah blah, blah blah global warming swindle...blah blah...stop the boats..blah ... Big New tax...blah blah.. musn't have super tax for huge profits on mining companies, that would not be fair on the multi billionaires blah blah... wheels falling off..no brakes we'll all be killed...blah blah I'm right - commo lefty Harley wrong, bad Harley, nasty Harley, should not disagree with Frankie..Blah Blah....frankie know everything..franki right - Harley wrong.... blah blah.. My preciousssss ....Tony oh my tony save us all from the reds.... and the yellows....and the ..blah blah blah :zzz:

record stuck mate, talk about the manufacturing industry for a change


HD

[onetrack]

I think you can pretty well measure the ability of an industry to survive by the amount of regulation, pettifogging rules, inspectors, and paperwork. We are rapidly becoming the biggest nanny state in the world.
From Internet censorship (thanks for imposing your domineering christian principles on us, Senator Conroy - and I use the small "c" on purpose), to restrictions, and vast amounts of paperwork on every single thing a person tries to do, when carrying out a business activity.

Inspectors get right up my nose. Every business has to put up with their share of Nazi-style inspectors who have exceeded their job abilities. From truck drivers who have to keep logbooks detailing every single thing they have done, every 15 mins of the day, to "chain of responsibility" laws that means that even checking a wheelnut involves more than one person and 15 mins of form-filling-in.

A bloke I know repairs boats. He runs a business with just him and his missus. He has an old Clark forklift that he uses to drag the boats around his level forecourt with, so he can work on them in the open when required. A Worksafe goon spotted his forklift and descended on him. No flashing lights, no machinery logbook, a handbrake that didn't meet efficiency standards. The bloke told him where to go in no uncertain terms, he's running a small business with no employees, and poses no risk to anyone but himself. The goon went ballistic and threatened to have him jailed over "major safety breaches". The bloke won the argument, and the goon got in his car and took off, aiming for some other operation, where he could find a major regulation transgression, where he could make a killing.

Another mate has a tyre shop. A goon arrived and wanted to inspect his air compressor, and started berating him over no logbook for the aircompressor, no regular inspection periods, and no current inspection certification for the pressure vessel.
The tyre bloke got stuck into him, and said - "If you want uncertified pressure vessels, come with me! - I have hundreds out the back!" He led him to the tyre yard, where substantial numbers of inflated truck wheels and tyres were. Yep, every inflated tyre on a wheel is an uncertified, unplated pressure vessel!

The stupidity of the pettifogging regulations and massive amounts of paperwork in businesses, is out of proportion to what is needed. While businesses are loaded down with this BS, consumers can do what they like. A home owner can build his own home-made dangerous compressor, with no regulation.
The average Joe can jump in his car and drive 3500kms in a weekend (yes, a mate with a car-hire business had this happen!), whilst a truck driver can only drive so many hours in a day, and so many hours without a break - and it all has to be recorded in infinite detail. Yet car drivers cause more accidents than truck drivers.

The over-regulation of businesses, industry and innovation is what will kill our Western societies. I read an item about ship scrapping in the last few days. The U.S. has a large number of ships that are in dire need of scrapping. The cost to scrap them in the U.S. (meeting all the myriads of safety & EPA regulations) is US$1.8 BILLION! Yet, they can send them to India, China or Korea, to be scrapped, and the cost will only be US$170 million!

This is where the carbon tax is wrong. It's just another impost on us, with dubious benefits, based on dubious science, touted by unelected powerbrokers (Garnaut is but one of many of these - and has anyone seen Garnauts record on pollution activity as a previous company director?)... and benefitting no-one, expect those in the financial cirlces who are rubbing their hands at the "profitable opportunities presented" by shonky carbon trading!!
Add in another looming massive bureaucracy to "oversee" the carbon tax scheme, and it's little wonder that industry in Australia is struggling, and that manufacturers find it easier to source products from countries that are not burdened by over-regulation, paperwork, and taxes.

[Frank Arouet]

franki right - Harley wrong

That's one part of your left wing rant that made sense.

And don't accuse me of doing nothing, whinging and moaning mate. I was manufacturing pressure vessels, employing over 40 people and trying to compete with overseas cheap imports in the late 70's. I've spent a good deal of my time antagonising CASA because it's a just occupation and have a letter from The Director of Aviation Safety apologising after a Commonwealth Ombudsman's report damned him and his fkuced out principality and now with the blood and bruises to give me the RIGHT to have a moan about a fkuced out political party I do so.

Oh, and I gave nearly 15 years of my life defending this country in The Australian Army so I have served under good and bad governments, (to whom the military pledge their support), and I can tell when I'm being shafted.

What a waste of time trying to reason with people who are so blind.

You're just one of the 49% I guess.

[Andy_RR]

What a waste of time trying to reason with people who are so blind.


Australians are mostly blind, Frank.

If you want to see how blind, just challenge them on the validity of their democratic right to vote, a right that they have no choice whether to exercise or not...

20-odd million uncritical thinkers in this brown land.

[JMEN]

Lots of good points.

Its a funny world, in Western Culture we find that "we" do not want to do the dirty jobs so employ foreigners, then we get all nasty when there are too many foreigners in our backyard. Simple answer screw the dole get of ya arse and get a job digging trenches or driving cabs, good enough for an immigrant good enough for you.

You know its not only a problem in the Western World, same same happens everywhere, cheaper labour floods across borders. Now you would have thought that the labour market could not get cheaper than a Thai labourer in Thailand, wrong, the Burmese flood across the border to undercut the market!

Middle East, don't even start without the plane loads of Indian and Pakistani workers it would all still be a sand dune.

Look at the Philippines, domestic helpers (maids) who live away from their family, working in Hong Kong, Singapore, etc are considered national heros' sending home upwards of $300 a month (their entire wage). You know what they are lucky to get a day off a month, again their work is considered too menial for a local.

Singapore fits more into the Western Country scenario, locals will not do the jobs considered **** and in come the Indians, Pakistanis, Chinese and a plethora of nations.

Maybe just maybe its time the national nation gets off its arse and does all the menial jobs to. At least in Aus there are jobs, there is a reason there are so many immigrants, there home land is well not as fortunate, there are simply no jobs.

Now I know this is not directed at aviation, but the thread is Australia its' own worst enemy :ugh: yep!

And before ya have a go, I worked my arse off to get where I am from diggen ditches, to fillen shelves and every form of menial work in between. As posted before I choose to live and work outside of Australia, yes I love to visit Australia for a holiday or an overnight but where I live I consider paradise. In fact this is semi retirement.

Each to their own! :ok:

[Slasher]

If you want a strong and prosperous manufacturing industry here in Aus, buy Australian products, use Australian products, promote Australian products and encourage your sphere of influence to support our local products (and produce)...


Empty-headed rhetoric. That worn out cliche doesn't work for
example with Australian based airlines, does it. Proof is in the
White Rat presently in the process of destroying itself (under
the efforts of a foreigner I might add) - one can fly QF every
bloody day for years, but its still going to turn to sh!t whether
the "buy Australian" idealogists like it or not.

[Deepsea Racing Prawn]

In these fora it seems anyone that is not a hard over conservative must be a relative leftie and tarred as a commo.

Spot on HD.

You're just one of the 49% I guess.

The world makes much more sense when you compartmentalize everyone.:rolleyes:

[HarleyD]

Frank, Slasher Andy RR et al:

You clearly all have a significantly better insight into innovative Australian design and or ability, or inability, to turn this into successful, locally manufactured products.

Frank, I would be honestly interested to hear you say something relevant to the experience that you had in the innovation, design and development, as well as the local manufacturing issues. seriously. I am so not interested in an ideological diatribe about Labour rooning the country.

I work in a successful manufacturing company that exports tens of millions of dollars of locally designed and manufactured stuff to all corners of the world. even with the little aussie battler at 1.10 USD we are making inroads into the north American market. I just left a meeting regarding FY11/12 business strategy and NOT ONE SINGLE REFERENCE to politics, either way, no new world order, or UN world domination conspiracy theories, no teaparty myopia, not even any vitriol about the beaurocracy that regulates the industry in which we live. just good sound business planning, responsible, prudent and diligent management technicues, vision and contingency planning, exchange rate outlooks, outsousorcing of processes and upgrading of plant belonging to us and our suppliers in order to meet budgetary and production targets.

The Witch or the Mad Monk will make NO DIFFERENCE, in fact the company that i am employed by, and many others, would prefer a greater level of stability and cooperation in government, and a lot less of the loose cannon talk down and the politics or wailing opposition that the so-called coalition is bombarding us with. if the shoe was on the other foot, things would still be exactly the same. you are kidding yourself if you think differently frank, but to hear anything you must remove the digits from your ear-holes and stop shouting that "the sky is falling", lest you start looking like Chicken Little, but with two right wings.

Slasher: I buy Australian when given the choice and product brand confidence. I rarely regret such purchases, especially compared with issues i have had with el cheapo imported crap, I buy Australian oranges (my family grew them for years.) and any other Aussie produce I can in preference to imported stuff. works for me and my family


HD

[Slasher]

I am so not interested in an ideological diatribe about Labour rooning the country.

Well bub you DEFINITELY SHOULD BE -

Gough Whitlam/Jim Cairns
Silver Bodgie
The Bogan/Lee Rhiannon/Bob Brown/Christine Milne/etc etc

Do you think I'd be still overseas and continuing to strongly
encourage talented mates (of various skills, not just pilotage)
to leave if these latest pack of dipsh!ts weren't running loose
ruining the country?

[Frank Arouet]

I hesitate to mention the word "protectionism" but why does the rest of the world have tariffs to keep their industries and farms and even airlines viable?

Can I also ask why we are linked to a OPEC price for oil when we are capable of producing all our needs without importing? Why do we sell our oil and buy back petroleum at Singapore spot price? Why don't we have more oil refinery's? Why don't we value add to our coal and iron ore and make steel here?

Joh Petersen and Lang Hancock saw a vision of a railway across the continent to take coal from Qld to the ore in WA and vice versa with manufacturing on bothe coasts. Instead we sell both raw items to China and import the finished product.

These questions are apolotical, but it's the current mob that not only ignore, but add to the woes by proposing a tax on CO2.

But I suppose Willy Winki, Oakshott, and Windsor have our interests at heart. God bless them.

[HarleyD]

I've had enough of this nonsense.

I do not wish to debate politics, As an Officer I was told that was not discussed at the table ( the assumption being that you were all ultra conservative in any case), I was seriously interested in a thread with professional interest, but have been told I am wrong about everything by the resident experts?!? , how and what i should be thinking, who I should be supporting politically, and how I should be conducting my employer's business.

Sorry F & S, but I will take my CEO's guidance in preference, and thus hereby withdraw from the utter farce that this thread has descended into.

Thanks for your profound and intelligent discourse. That was sarcasm by the way. Most people would comprehend that, but I thought that I might just need to point it out to you guys.

HD

- Not Left......... Not Right........ but a moderate pragmatist... (or commo as frank thinks), and No Frank/Slasher, I am not an fundamental Islamic Illegal boat arrival who is unmarried to a lesbian, conservationist indigenous whale, just a Ppilot.

[Frank Arouet]

Are you left handed or a vegan by any chance?

I note you are stuttering.

Or perhaps so blinded as to not see the wood for the carbon absorbing oxygen releasing trees and the elements table, obviously blind guessed ratio, of the atmosphere which we need to provide stimulus for the urge to breathe which is provided by CO2?

Have you ever hyperventilated? (no not on the dunny).

Have you ever dived in the real ocean?

Are you now getting dizzy?

Oh, and;

Just before you go, do you remember Compass Airlines? Their debts were as a result of unpaid Air Nav Charges, (a bit like a carbon tax, money for nothing), otherwise they were solvent.

How hard would it have been for the little silver bodgie to forgo his mates pleasure for his favours, and waive the charges to keep the airline and all it's employees in a job?

No, don't bother unless you are sincere about being a moderate pragmatist.

(something I pride myself on so we should be kindred spirits).

(And that's if your'e not offended by a subtle spiritual nuance).

(And that's if your'e still with us).

[Fubaar]

On (Melbourne) Fairfax radio today, supposedly from two separate sources, a backroom labor plan to leave la Gillard in place to introduce the unpopular carbon tax and then ditch her (a la South Australia, NSW and Federally) just before the election and replace her with.... Simon bloody Crean!!!

[Andy_RR]

Good on you HarleyD for doing your bit to fix up this country's balance of trade.

I agree with much of your sentiment - i.e. just get on and do something, however many Australians don't see it this way. Moreover, quite a few of them wish to put their hands in one's pocket to help finance solutions to "problems", at least as they perceive them to be.

There was an interesting bio in the Fin Review about Graeme Woods, the founder of Wotif and his penchant for supporting the Greens. Now, don't get me wrong - he's welcome to do what he wishes, but his motive is pure communist (i.e. "I'll commandeer your resources to fix up the world to my way of thinking"). He blatently proclaims that the millions he invested into the Greens election campaign has rewarded him with billions of investment in green energy technologies. (via Julia's Carbon Tax)

OK, so if he was a real captain of industry, rather than a one-hit wonder he appears to me to be, he'd be firing up his next business venture into green energy himself, getting private and institutional investors to back him, rather than holding a gun to the nation's collective head and forcing them to pay for it whether they believe in it or not.

See, that's the problem with government (and a big problem when it's big government) - you get bad ideas being funded out of political expediency (NBN anyone?) where good ideas would normally flourish and meet the real need.

Forget politics and the government - get rid of it altogether! (or at least as much as we can)

[Frank Arouet]

Fairfax radio today, supposedly from two separate sources, a backroom labor plan to leave la Gillard in place to introduce the unpopular carbon tax and then ditch her

NO, NO, No.

Gillard is the best assett the Liberals have.

Crean is just as mad, but more convincing that his presence may induce a Labor sympathy vote.

It's the GREEN's, (and a few mindless independents), that need political geonicide.

LEAVE THE WITCH BE.

[PLovett]

Gentlemen, if this thread was running on Jet Blast it would have led to the banishment of several posters. The rather ridiculous partisanship being shown has nothing to do with aviation in Australia.

Mark Twain once said that we get the government we deserve. It may profit us to consider that and reflect that we choose our governments. May I suggest that the politics be left out and the discussion and return to the character traits of Australians - not their politics.

[jas24zzk]

Plovett,
the character traits of aussies and our politcians are so intertwined that you cannot possibly have a discussion about one without talking about the other..,................


What would be nice tho is for people to manage their responses a little better to avoid personal attacks.

Sure state your point of view, ask questions, but avoid denigrating those that share a differing view. Often asking questions relevant to that opposing view will lead to some education on both parties account.


cheers
Jas


(ps I am a Virgo, i should be a pessimist, but i prefer to find the balance)

[sisemen]

Unfortunately PLovett everything that happens in this country, or any other, is inextricably linked to politics. This is particularly so when the politics of a country impinges so much on everyday life. It is even more so when the politics is in such a parlous state that it is currently in Australia and impinges to a huge degree on the way that each individual and business conducts their affairs.

It is unfortunate that the dysfunctional and incompetent mob who took over in 2007 (and that is not to say that the previous mob weren't heading that way) have polarised Australian political opinion to such an extent that the likes of HarleyD have pulled the pin on discourse despite being able to put his points across in a relatively dispassionate and well argued manner. Fortunately the goadings from the sidelines from the likes of Finally The Truth and Deep Sea Racing Prawn (fully paid up members of the ALP far left it would appear) have failed to ignite the hoped for stoush which would get this thread closed down in the same way as the Cane Toad Wheel.

So, yes, by all means concentrate on those things that we don't do well, and hopefully concentrate on those that we do do well but politics cannot be excluded.

[Deepsea Racing Prawn]

fully paid up members of the ALP far left it would appear

Far from it.....hell, I could even see myself voting Liberal if Malcolm was at the wheel.

[Frank Arouet]

This bloke is a serial "thread closer" from jetblast. I would suggest you ignore him and he may go away.

[C-change]

I find it interesting that the current Aus. Govn. is talking up a Very Fast Train project (East Coast only, Bris-Syd-CB-MEL) with costs around $106 Billion. A VFT will require a stack of electricity to run.
How will we provide the required power to run it, if the Greens/ALP no longer like coal fired power stations?
How can you introduce a carbon tax, supposedly to reduce Co2 emissions, then talk up a VFT that will use **** tins of electricity from coal fired stations ? Do they think the lovely wind turbines will run it?
Whats going on ? :ugh:

[bob johns]

AY .Frank do you mean the silver bodgie aka the foul mouthed sawn off womanising little drunk, who took twice as long to wreck the place as Goofy did or the other bloke?

[Frank Arouet]

The former. However I believe he simply continued what Goofy started. Actually everyone since Goofy seemed to be in a race to see who could do the most damage.

[Saltie]

Who was it who said on this or the other thread "What's the bet not one will ever be deported to Malaysia."?

Labor's Malaysia Solution all at sea as High Court action stops deportations | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/labors-malaysia-solution-all-at-sea-as-high-court-action-stops-deportations/story-fn59niix-1226110504615)

REFUGEE advocates last night struck a heavy blow against the Gillard government's Malaysia Solution, with Melbourne lawyer David Manne winning a High Court injunction to prevent the deportation of more than 100 asylum-seekers scheduled to begin today.
With the Australian Federal Police pooling their numbers on Christmas Island ahead of the deportations, High Court judge Ken Hayne granted an interim order preventing their removal from Australia.

Mr Manne's last-minute bid came as authorities hoped to fly 15 to 16 single men to Malaysia today and came just hours after authorities intercepted another boatload of asylum-seekers - the second to arrive since the government finalised its deal with Malaysia last Monday. At least four unaccompanied children were on the boat, in what will be the latest test of the Gillard government's promise that "no blanket exemptions" will apply to its policy.

"15 to 16" single men? On an A320??? Good to see someone in aviation is profiting from this sorry mess. I suppose all the other seats would have been taken up by the hundred plus Federal Policemen it would have taken to keep the "15 or 16" under control before and during the flight.

Someone has said it before me, but it's worth repeating - all the so-called "Malaysia solution" will achieve is Australia receiving 4800 extra refugees and asylum seekers, the 4000 Bowen and Gillard have agreed to take whatever the outcome of the swap (or non-swap) of the 800 ILLEGALS, plus the 800 (and who knows how many more) who will never be sent to, or accepted by, Malaysia.

The Cassanova Government indeed.

[aeromariner]

Either you Mr Moderator fix this, or I'm off along with HarleyD

[sisemen]

Fix what??? An exchange of ideas? Not happy that someone disagrees with your line? Want to shut down criticism of this dysfunctional government?

Or is it a plea to merge two similar threads?

[Ovation]

Either you Mr Moderator fix this, or I'm off along with HarleyD

In this forum an essential ingredient for a robust debate is reasoned intelligent comment "on topic". Attempting to stifle this debate will usually be viewed as an inability to debate alternative points of view, something akin to Gillard saying "the science is settled" on AGW.

And for those who follow the polls, our preferred Labor PM's are Rudd at 30%, Gillard at 12%, and at 11% who would have guessed, Malcolm Turnbull.

source: Essential Media

[Deepsea Racing Prawn]

"An exchange of ideas?"
"Robust debate"

You wont find any of that in this 'cauldron of conservatism'.

Anyone who has a view that differs from the hardline right-wingers is simply shot down in flames, not debated rationally.

This thread is entertaining, but there are much better sites to visit for constructive debate on these issues.

[dat581]

Hard line right wing is hardly the case, more like centre right. The problem is the creeping socialism which infects the west has dragged public perception too far to the left.

[Frank Arouet]

It's difficult to have debate with anybody who believes they can argue credibly for this illigitimate Labor Government who have achieved nothing, wasted much, and driven people to despair with idiotic agendas which are thinly veiled raving ratbag left green/ red ideals. Something embraced in a desperate attempt to grab and hold on to, power.

In aviation matters, for instance, I believe both Minister and Shadow Minister for Transport are as bad as each other with one subtle difference.

The megalomaniac Labor Minister is currently in power.

[Andu]

Good to see the Usual Suspects (if under new identities) following their tried and true practice of attempting to get any thread that doesn't agree with their personal political bias closed down - as they so successfully did over on JetBlast.

For those who say that this thread lacks meaningful aviation content - if the current political situation continues on the path its on at the moment and this country ends up in the state that the Reds a.k.a. Greens want it to be, there'll be precious little aviation content anywhere in Australia!

[T28D]

Sometimes it needs a bit of a look outside to get perspective, I have just come home from Scandinavia and Russia, note there are NO GENERAL AVIATION aircraft in the sky, avgas is $5 AUD a litre and Mogas $3 AUD a litre, Deisel a very close cost as well.

We WILL FOLLOW this trend if we are not careful, at present we live in a protected society, everyone needs to be really careful we don't slip down the Europen slope of social Brussels Burearocrat Engineering.

IT SIMPLY COSTS TOO MUCH

Am I shouting, yes because I don't personally think Australians are savvy enough to understand that it is not "peak Oil" that is crippling Europe, it is rampant bureacracy that has not been controlled and is eating the once stable "mother of civilisation" !!!!!

Bureacracy has no viable parents, it is a cancer that is self sustaining and very destructive.

[Worrals in the wilds]

But like cancer the question still remains... How do you get rid of it?

[sisemen]

This thread is entertaining, but there are much better sites to visit for constructive debate on these issues.

Away ye go then Jimmy. You probably won't be missed.

[Deepsea Racing Prawn]

illigitimate Labor Government

If Oakeshott and Windsor had decided to fall in line behind Tony Abbott would you have regarded the resulting Coalition minority government to be illegitimate too, and if not, why not?

[Frank Arouet]

rampant bureacracy that has not been controlled and is eating the once stable "mother of civilisation"

And soon to be exponentially cloned with a new regulatory body to police and promulgate laws for a "carbon trading/ tax." Probably as dangerous as CASA and Human Services, to name but two, and as useless and intrusive as The Bureau of Statistics.

EDIT to add: I can't think of anything nice to say to the live prawn bait, so I won't say anything. People who engage him will soon see why similar threads have been closed on jetblast.

[Andu]

You raise a very good - and very pertinent - point there, Prawn.

I think Tony Abbott says and extra decade of the rosary :) every night to thank God that Oakeshott and Windsor took the course they did in supporting Gillard, for his (Abbott's) attempt at minority government with independents and the Reds/Greens holding him over a barrel at every turn would have been (in my opinion) even more disastrous than what we've seen since last August.

Why? Any policy Abbott tried to enact would be far, far more removed from what the Reds/Greens want thn Gillard's have proven to be, so there really would be substance in a Greens' threat to stop backing him if he didn't deliver their brand of goods, (unlike the situation Gillard finds herself in - but doesn't realise it - where any such threat by Bob Brown is total bluff with absolutely no substance).

Rather than rampart bureaucracy, I would characterize the situation in Europe more as approaching the end game after fifty+ years of the Welfare State, where the majority of citizens have become used to living on government handouts of one description or another, to the point where the current generation's sense of entitlement has become inbred in many if not most from birth. The system has worked wonderfully well - so long as there was other people's money to finance it. However, that money has not only run out, the European governments have borrowed much, much more money - money they can never hope to repay - to maintain the illusion, and illusion that has caused tens of thousands of people from Africa, Eastern Europe, India and all points in between to flock there to enjoy the fruits of the seemingly endless gravy train. (And when the gravy train turns out to be a little less appealing than the illusion, we see the result - the anarchy of the last four days in the streets of UK cities.)

And what is the Gillard government doing with its endless promises of "compensation" (or should that be "compeynsaychion"?) or even over compensation for the poor and not so poor for every ridiculous tax they propose to impose? Unbelievably, after seeing it doesn't work, they're following the European example.

[sisemen]

If Oakeshott and Windsor had decided to fall in line behind Tony Abbott would you have regarded the resulting Coalition minority government to be illegitimate too, and if not, why not?

Windsor got 61.9% of the vote having been a previously centre right supporter. Labor + Greens + other assorted left wing ratbags got 11.7%. The remainder of the right parties (Nats etc) got 26.4%. That's 88.3% of the electorate putting their vote to what they thought was a centre right supporting candidate.

Oakshott got 47.1%, again, having previously been a centre right supporter. The assorted left wing ratbags combined got 17.8% and the right wing parties 35.1%. Thats 82.2% of the electorate putting their vote to what they thought was a centre right supporting candidate.

And that, for the slow of learning and hard of understanding, is why, had they sided with Abbott, it would have given him more legitimacy in forming a government than the current situation.

Anyone not understanding that very very simple truth should think hard before trying to debate on here rather than spouting unthinking party dogma.

And that's why it is unlikely that Oakshott and Windsor will survive any future election. And speaking of oblivion, I thought you said you were off Jimmy??

[Deepsea Racing Prawn]

I can't think of anything nice to say

You don't have to say anything nice, just a constructive response like Andu's would suffice.

[De_flieger]

Thats one interpretation of the results sisemen, another one is that given the option of voting National, which is a vote for Abbott and the coalition, or voting for Windsor, 61.9% of the electorate did not vote for the coalition. As there was the option of voting coalition, independent, alp or green, 61.9% choosing independent shows that the electorate wasnt that keen on an Abbott government either. The coalition ran a candidate in Windsors electorate, and he didnt get elected, by a fairly large margin.

The same thing occurred in Oakeshotts electorate, where a coalition candidate contested the seat against independent, greens and labour, losing by a fairly substantial margin. That hardly shows that either seat was secretly barracking for the coalition and someone else got in by stealth against the will of the populace.
I dont think the coalition was helped by Barnaby Joyce appearing on tv on election night and insulting the independents who would be necessary to form a government either...

[Ovation]

If Oakeshott and Windsor had decided to fall in line behind Tony Abbott would you have regarded the resulting Coalition minority government to be illegitimate too, and if not, why not?

Deepsea Racing Prawn

(while I was composing this response others were obviously at it as well)


The MP's are elected to represent the will of the people in their particular electorate.

In Windsor's electorate of New England in 2010, the people voted 8.13% ALP, 3.57% Greens, 25.22% Nationals, and 61.88% for Windsor IND. Windsor himself is (or was) a conservative himself in a typical conservative country electorate.

Therefore, twice as many voted for the coalition (25.22%) as did for the combined ALP and Greens (11.7%). On these figures the seat of New England is definitely not an ALP stronghold, and Windsor supporting Gillard has ignored the conservative nature of his electorate.


In Oakeshott's electorate of Lyne in 2010, the people voted 13.49% ALP, 4.29% Greens, 34.39% Nationals, and 47.15% for Oakshott IND. Twice as many voted for the coalition (34.39%) as did for the combined ALP/Greens (17.78%), and the argument for Lyne is equally as valid as for New England.

Similar to Windsor, Oakeshott's political career until 2002 was conservative, and by supporting Gillard has ignored the wishes of his conservative electorate.

Bottom Line? When (and if) Oakeshott and Windsor face their electorate, they'd be lucky to get into double figures, and I'll bet Bill Shorten's house that Windsor will be too chicken to stand again. Anecdotal evidence is both their electorates have been buying baseball bats in anticipation.

Moving forward to the question of illegitimacy, by supporting an un-elected Prime Minister in a minority government, Oakeshott and Windsor, ensured the supremacy of the Greens when it came to policy development.

I personally don't think they should have supported the coalition, given that for these troubled times we need strong decisive government, and it would have been better to go back to the polls. The cost of another Federal election would have been peanuts to what its costing the Nation to have such incompetence and "thought bubble" decision making from Gillard et al.

And in keeping with this thread, YES, there will be carbon tax on AVGAS.

Gillard did solemnly say just 5 days before the 2010 election there wouldn't be, but in a typical "Bait and Switch" we now know she's a fraud.:ugh:

I could never forgive Gillard's behaviour, and Craig Emerson's ex-wife probably wouldn't either.

[sisemen]

Fully agree with what you say Flieger but one other element which cannot be discounted is that an electorate tends to stay with the incumbent and like it or like it not both Oakshott and Windsor had, up until that point, built up a faithful 'conservative' following.

What is uncontestable is that both electorates have historically been centre right - ergo, to support a left coalition with the ultra left Greens was a denial of the electorate's wishes.

And given the uncanny ability of this present government's ability to screw up everything that they have turned their hand to that is why there is so much angst about the illegitimacy of this dysfunctional bunch of ratbags.

[Wiley]

Anecdotal evidence is both their electorates have been buying baseball bats in anticipation.I've just spent the last few days in Rob oakeshott's electorate of Lyne and while there, asked a number of people how they regard their local federal member. Leaving out the many words in their replies that would get me banned from this and many other sites, suffice to say that I found no one - and I mean not one person - with a good word to say about the man. I'm sure there must be some who still support him, but many of not most people there are not happy with him.

Apparently, he has been almost unseen in and around Port MacQuarie since 'that' infamous seventeen minute speech, only surfacing at a public event in the Port in the last week or so, one that was decscribed to me as 'unavoidable'.

If what I heard from the admittedly small number of people I spoke to is any indication, his numbers will not be good at the next election. However, what surprised me was that two people I spoke to believe he is so thick-skinned (some would say 'out of touch') that they both believe he will stand again come the next election.

[Frank Arouet]

If Oakeshott and Windsor had decided to fall in line behind Tony Abbott would you have regarded the resulting Coalition minority government to be illegitimate too, and if not, why not?

It is my belief that Abbott would have seen the folly of trying to govern with a minority government and called an immediate election, (ala' ante Whitlam/Kerr), to legitimise his position.

To this end he would have bounded in and we would now be complaining about Truss as Aviation Minister and wouldn't have The Greens to cause us grief because they would have "vaporised" into oblivion like The Democrats, (God bless them).

But we won't know for sure because someone else beat him to the position of illigitimate government and refused to confirm "HER" mandate (?) to govern with an election after MISREPRESENTING, (LYING) to the PUBLIC COMPANY SHAREHOLDERS she now Chairs.

ASIC would have shut any other Public Company down immediately.

[Andu]

Given that the US national debt translates to approx $43,000 per citizen and the (much smaller, we are always assured) Australian national debt translates to approx $52,000 per citizen, the clip below probably applies no less to the Australian voter than it does to the US voter.

YouTube - Brother, Can You Spare A Trillion?: Government Gone Wild! (http://www.youtube.com/embed/VtVbUmcQSuk)

I see another boat containing 100+ asylum seekers arrived today... having what effect I wonder on our national debt?

[sisemen]

Wayne the Dunce must be worried. With a new recession on the skyline and having spent up big time and exhausted the coffers left behind by the previous Government he's got nothing in the pot to fund another cash splash if this government needed it.

And is it me or does Chris Bowen look even more like a rabbit caught in the headlights nowadays?

[Frank Arouet]

Has anybody written to Honorable Warren Truss, National Party, Shadow Minister for Transport to voice their concerns?

I did, and he can't be bothered to respond to my concerns. (fkucing bigshot)! Even my local Member can't be bothered to respond despite his Nats credentials and my being a constituent. (another idiot that won't get another vote from me).

Get rid of the Labor freak show, but plan for the arrogance of the new encumbancy which we "WILL" inherit absolutly, ( a word I hate), for the next term.

If we don't put the next mob on notice, once again, we will get the government we deserve.

Use your anger wisely.

[PLovett]

Don't any of you lot understand that ALL politicians, no matter what their party affiliations, are the same. There are no differences. The nature of politics today ensures that they are only concerned with the swinging voter and with modern media that is a matter of a video/sound bite. There is no substance. The situation will remain unchanged until there is a widespread voter revolt at that form of politics. :mad::ugh:

[ReverseFlight]

Baillieu rails for Avalon (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/baillieu-rails-for-avalon-20110812-1ir2g.html?from=age_sb)
Melbourne Airport is the nation's second busiest, handling about 28 million passengers on 200,000 thousand flights a year, while Avalon sees six Jetstar flights a day now that Tiger has pulled out from operating there. State aviation minister Gordon Rich-Phillips justified putting the Avalon rail link first on the grounds it was easier and was a long-term investment, while routing a train to Melbourne Airport was complicated by surrounding urban development. ''Avalon is a clearer project than Melbourne in terms of the logistics associated with doing it,'' Mr Rich-Phillips said.I reeled with disbelief when I read this. Why would you think Mr Baillieu suggested this ? For exactly the same reasons as his proposals to extend the Mornington Freeway: Study eyes Peninsula freeway (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/study-eyes-peninsula-freeway-20110809-1ikvn.html)
VICROADS has begun a study to look at traffic and safety on the Mornington Peninsula, which could result in the peninsula's freeway being extended from Rosebud to Blairgowrie ... The Baillieu government has committed $200,000 to a congestion study for the peninsula.Clue: Mr B is an architect by profession and his family's real estate firm is Baillieu Knight Frank (source: Wikipedia).

[Andu]

Hamid Karzai signs law 'legalising rape in marriage' - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/asia/afghanistan/5080797/Hamid-Karzai-signs-law-legalising-rape-in-marriage.html)

And our soldiers are dying to allow this man to establish his government in Kabul.

[Frank Arouet]

And Qantas in now renamed 立派なカンガルーの航空会社

Go to google translation if you don't know the lingo mate!

[Slasher]

Hamid Karzai signs law 'legalising rape in marriage' - Telegraph

It appears to be just his move to get shias onside before the
presidential poll - politically speaking its really no different to
Gillard's carbon tax (itself a form of legal tax rape) so as to
keep her green commie partners and their associated hordes
of useful idiots onside.

Idealogically speaking, in both cases the masses will end up
unfairly fcuked one way or another.

[Frank Arouet]

Tokyo Rose, Goebbels, and Lord Haw Haw, were pissants compared with the propaganda arm of the Australian government. (The ABC). The bias is now so entrenched they are an institutionalised Labor fact of life. There is no comparisson with past Liberal governments. No, none as bad.

A pox on the ABC.

Poor bloody Harry Jenkins, (Lab), is more of an unbiased source and will be worth reading his memoirs if and when he publishes them.

Meanwhile the Irish appear in charge of removing, (burning), public accountability from a taxpayer owned Australian icon to constructing corporate bridges that replace that responsibility to a shareholding minority while Gillard "fiddles".

A pox on Gillard and her fiddle.

EDIT: Karzi will go the same way as Gillard, Brown, Wong and the whole bloody awful lot.

A fatwa on them all.

[flying_a_nix_box]

Is Australia it's own worst enemy?? In short, HELL YEAH!!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Frank are you suggesting Gilliard, Brown, Wong et al will be assassinated by Pashtun Tribesmen with AK47s?

What a nice thought...I will sleep better:ok:

Maybe for those of you who have been living in Australia hence haven't noticed so much (death of a thousand cuts type thing)...or for those younger than 30-35...you cannot believe how much Australia has changed in the last 25 years that I have been an expat. Its still the best place on this earth but its a VERY different place to the one I left in the mid 80s.

VERY obvious to those of us overseas when we come home on holidays...sad.

[Wiley]

I had a very similar reaction after returning home two years ago chimbu, (after ~20 years OS). However, I think we have an uphill battle convincing people who've endured the changes from within of the fact - they're a bit like frogs in a slowly heating pot of near boiling water.

For a nation that exists on the myth (for today, myth it definitely is) of the Outback and larrakins who thumb their noses at authority, we've descended complacently into a Nanny State that some Brits would say is right up there with the UK for mindless Political Correctness overriding common sense.

The only people I see displaying any semblance of the so-called Aussie larrikin streak there days are the buggers trying (in the main, thanks to our new-found Political Correctness, very successfully) to sneak into the country by the back door via Christmas Island. Forty years ago, the vast majority of Australians would have seen this for what it so undoubtedy is - a pisstake and a scam of grand proportions at our (the Australian taxpayers') ongoing expense, and would have howled it down and TOLD the politicians to put a stop to it and give the fair go to the poor bastards who deserve help rather than these middle class economic migrants.

Admittedly, there are a few who are crying out for something to be done, but for the life of me, I can't see a politician on either side of the House I'd want to put my trust in to take the bin out on Thursday night, let alone run the country. I cringe, (before I start screaming at the screen) whenever I see that misbegotten excuse for an oxygen thief Sarah HansenhyphenYoung sprouting her arrant nonesense at a camera. Can the woman - or any of the adoring media who stick the microphones so readily in front of her nose - really believe any of the rubbish she comes out with?

As for that other woman... I simply hit the mute button whenever her face appears on screen, (and am surprised at the number of people I speak to who tell me they do exactly the same thing whenever she appears). Surely to God that fact must be showing up in the Labor Party polls?




Rant off. I feel better now.

But I think I'll still take a Bex and have a good lie down... (another comment the under 35s won't understand).

[Andu]

I'll bet this came as a great surprise to everyone - NOT!!

MP Craig Thomson paid to save Julia Gillard | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/sydney-nsw/mp-craig-thomson-paid-to-save-julia-gillard/story-e6freuzi-1226116308634)

EMBATTLED federal Labor MP Craig Thomson is in further strife after breaching strict parliamentary rules relating to his financial and pecuniary interests.

The Government MP last night updated his register of pecuniary interests, notifying the House about a $90,000 legal bill paid for by the Australian Labor Party in May of this year.

But Mr Thomson - who is alleged to have misused union funds to pay for prostitutes - breached the rules requiring him to update his register within 28 days.

"In May 2011 the Australian Labor Party (New South Wales Branch) paid a sum of money in settlement of a legal matter to which I was party," Mr Thomson wrote, in his letter to David Elder, Register of Members Interests.



Prime Minister Julia Gillard yesterday expressed her confidence for the NSW backbencher.

"I have complete confidence in the member for Dobell," she told Parliament.

[Frank Arouet]

And a fatwa on him too.

And it's a "Pashtun tribesperson" with an unloaded stick. (to be politically correct).

[sisemen]

With the state of the governing party as toxic, corrupt and dysfunctional as it is, the main forum on pprune for highlighting these abuses and incompetencies was closed on threat of permanently banning should anyone have the temerity to resurrect the poor old cane toad. Go figure.

Perhaps Australian politics is too rough for the gentle souls in the hierarchy :}

Like a plume of cigarette smoke which starts smooth and orderly, then gradually wobbles and finally descends into chaos so it is with this shower of the proverbial.

[Pinky the pilot]

"I have complete confidence in the member for Dobell,"

Isn't that what they always say shortly before the knife goes in?:confused:

Frank are you suggesting Gilliard, Brown, Wong et al will be assassinated by Pashtun Tribesmen with AK47s?

What a nice thought...I will sleep better

Gold Chuckles. Pure Gold.:ok::D

[Chimbu chuckles]

Ha I was banned on jetblast by the PC tree hugger mods AGES ago - did you guys know it actually VERY difficult to get permanently banned on Pprune:ok:

The world is turning though...even Graham Richardson reckons the next Fed election will be an absolute blood bath of NSWellian proportions for Labor.

Did anyone else hear Barnaby deconstruct some stupid ABC radio presenter from Canberra yesterday? Twere very awesome and most excellent:D

[maralinga]

Chimbu, Wiley, et al.

Also being an Expat for many years it is heartbreaking to see the direction in which Australia is heading. Akin to being hypoxic, the change has been so insideous that when living back home it would be difficult to notice.

Living outside the country allows the perspective of objectivity. And objectively Australian takes for granted what it has, fettering away its advantages, which took years to bulid and develop for no return whatsoever, to fulfill some shallow ideology. Our country is being overtaken so rapidly that mining is all we have left. Australia would realise that the world is not as nice and generous as we would like it to be if only the confabulation would stop.


Australia doesnt know poverty, doesnt know hardship, living with tyranny or fiefdoms beacuse of our geography and fortune. Perhaps our "leaders" should live in Mumbai, and not at the Marriott, for a year as a prerequisite to be eligible for candidicy.

[aroa]

Far from it Maralinga. As one who hasnt been an expat for a few decades, I have railed... with many others, for ages, at the subtle /freedom restricting regs and 'laws' that bureaucrats continually spew upon us.

Read the history of rising Adolfs MO and its just the same ...little by little the regs are altered, the norms eroded until you can have a regime that will brook no opposition, and have "laws' to back in up.

Trouble is in this small d democracy there's not enough true Democracy. While we might hate the pollies, unelected bureaucarts rule. And they know it
See the famous CASA statement.. "Ministers and pollies come and go,, but we go on forever' And you know where that has got us.

Right now, I believe were are on the totalitarian road.

Locally 86% were against Shire amalgamation. We got it anyway... and in spite of the 'it will be cheaper' spin..its cost millions to burden the ratepayers.
What about the voice of the majority.? Stuff the peasants, what do they know.,! Sound familiar? :eek:
Its just not good enough to say we can have paper vote flutter in 2 years..so theres yr bloody democracy, live with it.
Major decisions like the C tax, NBN, etc that affect the well being of society should be voted on, by the people, for the people.
Whatever you may not like about the old USA,(and theres many things I dont), they do have more democracy in their Democracy. They can vote expenditure proposals in or out, elect school boards, sack police chiefs and etc. :ok:
In laid back old Oz, we are just expected to live with it and not complain.

We need a bit more Arab spring in our step. There's been some pretty drastic statements in this thread... but if those at the political level are not listening and continue to deny the will of the people, the we WILL make the changes, not them.
Blood on the wattle?... I hope not. :=

[sisemen]

On the eve of COAG:

Coalition Premiers: We have a problem with the Carbon Tax and the Federal Government's non discussion with the States.

Juliar: I would hope that COAG does not deteriorate into petty party politiking (Interpretation: Do as I say, I don't need hassle)

---------------

Juliar: in referring to Coalition statements about the possible job losses on the introduction of the Carbon Tax

"these 'so-called' models"

Juliar: in referring to the Carbon Tax

"The science is settled. The models show....."

:yuk:

[Pinky the pilot]

even Graham Richardson reckons the next Fed election will be an absolute blood bath of NSWellian proportions for Labor

Ah yes; Mr Graham 'whatever it takes' Richardson.:mad: Every time I see or hear him I always think of the Alpine* Printing business 'scandal.':hmm:

This time however I agree with his observation, but also pray fervently that the next election is a double dissolution. That way we may also be permanently rid of the Watermelon party.

We can but hope.




*Think that was the name.

[Ovation]

This was posted on the Andrew Bolt blog today and needs no further explanation.

http://blogs.news.com.au/images/uploads/thoi_thumb.jpg

[Ovation]

Ah yes; Mr Graham 'whatever it takes' Richardson. Every time I see or hear him I always think of the Alpine* Printing business 'scandal.'


Try this one Pinky:-Offset Alpine Fire (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Offset_Alpine_fire)

Two close associates of Offset Alpine (Rivkin and Adler) were jailed for other corporate crimes, and Mr "Whatever it Takes" would have been wondering about his fate over his (apparent) reluctance to disclose his secret stash in a Swiss Bank.

In January 2006 after a two year legal battle, ASIC gained access to the relevant Swiss banking records. In September 2006 it was revealed that Richardson had almost $1.5 million in Swiss accounts which he had failed to declare to the Australian Tax Office

[Frank Arouet]

Listening to the feeble spindoctoring by Gillard, Carr and Swan today regarding the Bluescope steel debacle, I would suggest the house of cards is starting to topple.

How are they going to fix the "problem"?

Chuck money at it of course.

Question time has just begun, it should be interesting.

[bob johns]

Craig Thompson? Cad and a bounder he would appear to be but at least He is sc-----g women

[M14_P]

Aussie is just a smaller version of the US....

[Worrals in the wilds]

Craig Thompson? Cad and a bounder he would appear to be but at least He is sc-----g women I thought union honchos could usually scrounge enough freebies without having to pay for sex. That said, if it had been the BLF or similar, escort services are probably on the approved expenditure list anyway :ooh::E...

[bob johns]

.WiW .What I could have added while I care not for him or his scabby incestuous, party at least he aint battin fer the opposition ,if yer gits me meanin!

[Andu]

The Bluescope boss was on the ABC (Illawarra) a couple of months ago warning that this was on the cards. Someone mentioned it on one of the Canetoad threads and the Usual Suspects howled him down saying the Bluescope boss was issuing "empty threats".

[T28D]

How on earth can Australia compete with A manufacturing powerhouse like China, there are more people in Shanghai City than the whole of Australia Shen Zhen is a modern "miracle".

China was the centre of manufacturing in the 1400 century, and political division cut it away from the world, now 2011 we see a new dynamic, China owns the bulk of the US debt , fundamentally the U S defence budget.

Can we compete, hell no, we are good at commodity export, we are a clean green food producer, we mine profoundly large natural surface resources.

We ca't compete as a manufaturer, we shouldn't try.

Just get better with the tools we have, " off the sheeps back" to use a previous commoditised catch phrase.

Rant over, air beef from Whyndam for aviation content, my grandpa was into it !!!! Bristol Frighteners, Centaurus Engines, unlimited Oil W100

[Frank Arouet]

Strike me pink! I went from Cristchurch (Wigram), to Chatham Islands in Freighter. 1970 from memory, it took all day, or most of it.

The spin about Bluescope exports is a furfy. They exported fcuk all except roof iron to detention centres. $1Billion loss in 12 months vs Gillard's $100 million to fix the problem. Work to welfare- everyone is dependant upon the government- great socialist dream pulled- wanked- and dusted down in Johnsons baby powder. Feel good stuff.

Just a wild suggestion, because it's been done before. Why can't this mob of fiscal geniiiiiii devalue the dollar or impose tarrifs on inports we grow- manufacture- produce here to make us at least locally competetive.

This government is an alarming misadventure. At best a product of dysfunctional voters from a memory lapsed dysfunctional population possibly too young to remember previous Labor "experiments".

[Slasher]

How on earth can Australia compete with A manufacturing powerhouse like China,

The problem with present Oz politics (and the US and Europe
I might add) is that the wrongest people imaginable are in
power at a somewhat critical time in history.

Ozland could have risen tremendously by taking the obvious
advantages that opened up to it in April 2008, and become a
extremely influential regional economic power with a trade
surplus that would've even been the envy of China on a GNP
basis. But of course that never happened, and a safe bet it
won't happen should the opportunity ever arise in the future,
if the locals continue to be influenced by idealogical left wing
crap instead of sheer hard-nosed no-nonsense pragmaticism.

[bob johns]

Bulls eye Slasher this once foreward looking country is turning into a city centric,media/soapy/sport/ Hollywood obsessed hedonistic basket case ,where our (?)leadership insist on more unskilled immigrants to do jobs our own unemployed wont do,when a lot of kids leave school unemployable,without basic literacy and numeracy, to go where ? on the dole ,breed more illierates while 3rd world immigrants are brought . in to jobs Aussies wont do?This is what the Brits did and look at what that has done.If someone decided to go on with another project like the Snowy Mountains scheme( and there is one badly needed and that is the Upper Clarence Diversion as envisioned by Dr Bradfield in the 1930s)some citycentric clache of squealing greenies would find an endangered wood louse to protect scupper the whole project and the rest ..of us would yawn ,wonder what was on tv and may be put pen to paper and have a grizzle about it and-do-nothing .Rant over.

[Wiley]

I don't know whether this bloke is a con artist or the real deal, (he can certainly 'talk the talk'), but just imagine how things could be turned around if: -

(a) he is the real deal and ,

(b) we had a political leadership in this country with the nous, brains and courage to follow his lead and implememt even 10% of what he espouses here - Gunter Pauli: The Blue Economy - Science and Technology - Browse - Big Ideas - ABC TV (http://www.abc.net.au/tv/bigideas/stories/2011/08/16/3293620.htm)

[sisemen]

The cops have now got the bite on Craig Thomas so we may be getting a little closer to the end game (and hopefully an election) a bit sooner than we thought (or the ALP planned!).

Someone mentioned it on one of the Canetoad threads and the Usual Suspects howled him down saying the Bluescope boss was issuing "empty threats".

Yep. It's funny how unerringly accurate the Usual Suspects were in their analysis of political events :}

[Frank Arouet]

Craig T... now asked about in The House of Representatives if his "donation" to keep Gillard in POWER was taxable as income. The thing is, I believe, a government Act of Grace Payment is not reportable, but a Union payment is not so protected. (details under the secrecry act is claimed).

So who runs the Country?

BTW, Albanese showed what we can expect by way of his input into aviation matters yesterday. The Trucks of disadvantage now re-named the convoy of no consequence.

Brave words from a transport minister/ (and person off small stature), aspiring to greater heights in the Qantas lounge gold key ****ehouse.

What a prat!

[Ovation]

As a rule, I don't pass along these "add your name" lists that appear in emails, BUT this one is important. It has been circulating for many months and has been sent to millions of Australians.

It's important not to lose any names on the list, so just hit forward and send it on. Please keep it going!


To show your support for Prime Minister Gillard and the job she is doing, please go to the end of the list and add your name.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
.
1. Tim Mathieson
2.

[flying_a_nix_box]

Well I do think that this article is inline with this discussion Mining Boom | High Dollar | BlueScope To Sack 1000 Workers (http://www.theage.com.au/opinion/do-we-need-industry-when-we-have-a-mining-boom-20110822-1j6sm.html#poll). Soon we will just be China's mine and nothing else......

[Andu]

(In my best Martin Luther King voice) "Ah have uh dream..."


... that the Member for Dobell is impaled on his own appendage and is forced to vacate his seat in Parliament.

... that the resulting byelection goes the way most consider it will and Labor loses the seat to someone other than the Watermelon Party.

... that this results in the fall of the Gillard government.

... that Tony Abbott does NOT try to govern with a majority of one and constantly massaging the Three Amigos, but calls for a new election PDQ.

... that Gillard loses her 'safe' seat and we never have to hear that dreadful bloody voice ever again.

... and that the half Senate election sees the Libs win a majority in the Senate large enough to consign the Greens to having no power to affect any vote so we never have to hear Brown's drone, Milne's oh so similar drone, or Hansen-Young's puerile(ette?) ramblings ever again.

... and most of all, that the Libs, if they get into power, don't do as many fear they might and screw it all up.

Ah do indeed have uh dream...

[Pinky the pilot]

Second the dream Andu but with one amendment.

That Tony Abott does attempt to pass some legislation in a majority of one Government which the Watermelon Party in the Senate is guaranteed to reject. He then makes two more attempts.

After three rejections he then has grounds for a double dissolution and we can get rid of all the Watermelons at once.:ok:

[Slasher]

... that Gillard loses her 'safe' seat and we never have to hear that dreadful bloody voice ever again.

Or that arse-ugly bloody mug of hers too! :yuk:

I pity you poor bastards down there in Oz copping that
bogan in your faces 24/7. At least around here we are
spared!

[Worrals in the wilds]

... and most of all, that the Libs, if they get into power, don't do as many fear they might and screw it all up.


That's the problem. It's a bit like saying 'Who is the most attractive Biggest Loser candidate?' At a pinch and after consuming a proscribed amount of rum and coke everyone can come up with one, but it's between a 2/10 and a 3/10...'cause basically the available options are all feral uggers. :}

This is where the Watermelons and the Mad Katters get an unfortunate amount of credibility, because when both major parties are uggers people start looking at the minor players/independents, which has proven to be a largely futile hope in recent times. Unfortunately with the exception of Senator X the minor players seem to be inflicted with the same 'look at me' disease as the major parties. :yuk:

It's a pity there's no ballot paper option where you can tick 'You all suck. Find some pollies with a degree of integrity, intelligence and fortitude who can run the show without resorting to chimpanzee politics. Ta. In the meantime we're withholding our taxes'. :{

[Andu]

It's a pity there's no ballot paper option where you can tick 'You all suck. Find some pollies with a degree of integrity, intelligence and fortitude who can run the show without resorting to chimpanzee politics. Ta. In the meantime we're withholding our taxes'. WitW, there is such an option. It's called the Informal Vote, where the voter submits a blank voting slip or in some way defaces the slip so as to register a protest vote by voting for 'none of the above'.

A friend told me he was one of the ~5% of voters who did this at the last election, as he didn't want his vote going towards supplying funds to any Party (as he was so disappointed in all of them).

(Some may not be aware that each Party receives public funds based upon the number of votes they receive.) At the time, I thought he was misguided, but I suspect that many traditional Labor voters, unable to bring themselves to vote for either Abbott or the Watermelons, but unable to vote for Gillard, will take this option in the next election - whenever it may be.

[sisemen]

I am astounded at the degree of politicking, obfuscation, lack of morality, sleaze, bloody-mindedness, and spin surrounding the piece of dog turd that comes in the shape of Craig Thomson.

If there is anything that demonstrates that Gillard has no moral compass and is in it purely for the ego trip and power then this is it.

Whilst I accept that the basic tenet is "innocent until proven guilty" this little shennanigen is going beyond the pale.

Let's hope the cops don't get dragged into this politically tainted **** fight and, with due diligence, come up with something soon.

[Frank Arouet]

Gillard has no moral compass

Her soft Tasmanian penile parietal partner in politics is her moral compass, but she is rudderless except for some misguided University agenda based on a redistribution of my wealth. (for what that's worth these days).
Harry Jenkins is the only person giving any credibility to this debacle, but he is showing his red undies much too often.

The Mr T matter is grubby.

No doubt many will go immediately on the attack, but we should ask about now, where is the moral compass of The Governor General?

Swinging to the left perhaps?

Talk about an absence of checks and balances.

EDIT to add.

Trying to stuff marshmallows into a money box conjures up images when thinking of Brown and Gillard. (so I'm a sick puppy).

[Pinky the pilot]

Question time in the house today was worth a listen to, provided of course, that one could stand listening to the donkey-like braying of Juliar as she ducked, weaved and avoided actually answering any questions put to her.

Lost count of how many Opposition members found themselves asked to leave the chamber under rule 93A but was at least three.:(

Frank; I don't think that there is anything the GG can do. Not yet anyway, and I suspect there won't be in the future either.

[Frank Arouet]

The Governer General will never interfere with Labor goings on whilever she remains Bill Shorten's Mother in Law or by some strange chance of nature the incoming Liberal Government re-appoints her to the position.

BTW, I saw Michael Jackson in Woolworths today.

[Andu]

The answer to everyone's queries as to why Juliar and co. are backing Craig Thompson to the hilt is in the size of the credit card bill he (or the "unknown man who stole his credit card" - yeah, right) signed at "Blond Babes" and other similar establishments back in 2005.

It's a given that, given the size of the bill, (in excess of two thousand dollars for one night's "escort services", I understand), more than one lady of the night provided her services to (quite a few) more than one gentleman client... and therein lies the reason Labor is so keen to see this go away.

Who, a disinterested (or, equally so, a not disinterested) observer might ask, might time prove those other gentlemen to be apart from Mr Thompson? (Or, let's give Mr Thompson the benefit of the doubt - whose entertainment did he or the unknown thief sign the credit card bill for while not enjoying those services himself?)

When the answer to that question comes into the public domain, (as I assume it eventually will, despite the Labor Party's faceless men's best efforts to keep those names under wraps), I have a strong suspicion that Labor's current parlous hold on legitimacy in government will look positively rock solid in comparison.

[Slasher]

Saw this on Bolt's blog in today's Australian -

labor_needs_a_new_leader (http://blogs.news.com.au/heraldsun/andrewbolt/index.php/heraldsun/comments/labor_needs_a_new_leader_to_restore_order_on_this_rabble/#commentsmore)

If you voted for the ALP in the last election to prove you are
a green-sympathising latte-lapping "alternative", then in the
next one you'll be proving whether you're a total fcuking idiot
or not.

[Dark Knight]

It's not all bad news for the Australian Labor Party.

At least one of their members can organise a root in a brothel.

[Pinky the pilot]

she remains Bill Shorten's Mother in Law

Oh yes, I forgot about that!:O

Good one DK.:ok:

[Worrals in the wilds]

ROFL, Dark Knight. :)
It's just a pity they never mastered the ancient Chinese art of Paying Cash. :suspect:

[Pinky the pilot]

It's just a pity they never mastered the ancient Chinese art of Paying Cash.

Exactly,Worrals. Quite seriously though, what I find more than startling is the thought that this clown may have apparently believed that all his mis-doings etc would never come to light? Do they really think that no-one would eventually find out?:confused:

The stupidity of some members of society in positions of 'authority' never ceases to amaze me.

Lord Acton was quite correct now, wasn't he!

[Frank Arouet]

Not generally able to comment on the fiscal goings on at a brothel, I do understand some have EFTPOS facilities for those who want to pay in cash. Strange even that you would consider this outlet as normal on your monthly statement.

Thinking as a sensible pervert, one would imagine he would get cash from a hole in the wall to pay for services rendered such that it doesn't leave a paper trail.

To leave an uncovered paper trail points to arrogance, not stupidity.

EDIT to add, his "proof" has now evaporated into the ether with claims of being in Perth at the time "someone" "borrowed" his credit cards, licence, etc and replaced them.

I've seen better looks on Kiwi Ewe's with their heads stuck in the fence.

[sisemen]

It really is about time that this government, this stinking cesspit of corruption, ineptitude and masters of inconsequential spin were turfed out on their collective ears and never allowed to come anywhere near public office again.

[Andu]

I wonder if someone hasn't started a pool betting on the identity of the man (or men) Craig Thompson's union credit credit card paid to be entertained back in '05?

[sisemen]

So what's with Windsor today? Why choose now to bring out a story like that?

TONY Abbott yesterday denied telling independent MP Tony Windsor he would do anything to become prime minister and joking he would give serious consideration to "sell(ing) my arse".

It really does say more about Windsor than Abbott. Presumably it's because of the latest "focus group" speil that Labor is so far behind the eight ball that the only weapon they think they have is that Abbott is still unpopular. So Windsor is an ALP patsy after all.

I don't think he needs a dirty shovel at his door. He must realise that he dug his own political grave a year ago.

[Saltie]

'The Australian' has pulled today's Glen Milne article on Our Joolya's past associations with dodgy union secetaries (or one in particular) and apologised to the PM, so I'd be guessing Joolya's old employers and partners, Slater & Gordon, have been busy with threatened libel suites today.

[CoodaShooda]

Interesting too that Bolta has declared his blog to be "politics free" while he considers matters of principle. As he was running the same story as Glen Milne, I wonder if the lawyers have also got at his editor.

Most surprising, however, was last night's 7.30 Report, which ran a story highly critical of Labor's Fair Work reforms. Included one comment to the effect that most economists agree the strongest influence that helped Australia weather the GFC was Work Choices. Had to double check I was actually watching the ABC. :eek:

[konstantin]

It seems that anything pertaining to Gillard/Wilson over the last day or two on AB`s site has been removed. This may be worth a read

Gillard calls; Murdoch paper sorry | theage.com.au (http://m.theage.com.au/national/gillard-calls-murdoch-paper-sorry-20110829-1jig6.html)

[Andu]

Quite some years ago now, a lawyer pointed out to me that Australia endures - or enjoys, depending upon where you're coming from - some of the most draconian libel and defamation laws in the world, a legacy of some of the very shady colonial era politicians in NSW and Victoria, who introduced those laws to protect themselves. (I understand that the NSW parliament once had a murderer as Speaker of the House.)

In Australia, he said, the truth is no defence - unless that truth can be proved to a degree acceptable to a court of law.

Not, of course, that I am in any way implying that there could be even a skerrick of truth in these outrageous allegations about our Prime Minister in her "naive young girl" period, which I understand followed her "shy schoolgirl" period.

[konstantin]

This is, ahem, an article by one G. Milne, would appear to be publically available on the www it seems

https://www.fac*book.com/notes/john-howard/glenn-milnes-retracted-article-in-the-australian-290811-pm-a-lost-cause-for-warr/10150308979968566 (https://www.facebook.com/notes/john-howard/glenn-milnes-retracted-article-in-the-australian-290811-pm-a-lost-cause-for-warr/10150308979968566)

Wonder if any pressure can be successfully applied to this particular fac*book page owner to remove it?

[Do the usual "*" thing...]

[Wiley]

When Kathy Jackson called in the wallopers, the stakes were high. Because a federal defeat for Thomson and his allies would enhance the power base of Victoria’s two other factional king makers, Bill Shorten and Stephen Conroy who are both aligned with the new guard in the HSU. And we all know what Shorten’s ultimate ambition is.

What a tangled web we weave especially when you consider Thomson is married to Zoe Arnold, a former Transport Workers Union official and adviser to former NSW Health Minister Reba Meagher. Alex Williamson, daughter of HSU national president Mike Williamson, is an adviser to Gillard. And, of course, as mentioned, Kathy Jackson, who blew the whistle on Thomson, was married to former Victorian state HSU secretary Jeff Jackson.

Truly the NSW Disease has arrived in Canberra.
Bloody hell! Is 'incestously nespotic' a tautology - or simply 'business as usual' for the ALP?

When you add the fact that the Governor General is Bill Shorten's mother in law, the whole sorry exercise becomes surreal.

If you were a novelist and submitted a plot line like this to a publisher, you'd be laughed out of his office, told it was impossibly contrived and to 'get real'.

[CoodaShooda]

Oh well. That's the Malaysian Solution scratched then. :E

[sisemen]

And the cosy deal with Telstra over the NBN which freezes out Optus over cable vision which the ACCC have deemed illegal. The whole thing will now threaten the business case for NBN.

Can this government get anything right?

Even their much vaunted ability to survive the GFC is now being put down to Howard's Workchoices legislation and the financial whizzes are saying that they spent recklessly and to no effect on the stimulation package and should have sat tight and waited the crisis out.

What does it take to get rid of this shower of schiessen? Armed revolution??

[Al Fentanyl]

The union movement and the ALP is not and never has been about 'workers looking after each other'; rather its about the power clique at the top looking after their mates who put them there for that purpose.

One CRITICAL point to bear in mind with this whole sorry tale:

NO POLITICIAN, ONCE IN POWER, WILL EVER GET A BETTER JOB; ERGO THEY WILL DO ANYTHING TO STAY IN POWER.

Principles, policies, integrity, ethics..... forget it.

[sisemen]

The High Court decision on the refugee situation is not something that Gillard and Bowen can sweep under the mat as just "one of those things". This is an international embarrassment and shows this bunch of incompetents just how incompetent they really are.

What with the experts saying that the Howard policies on Nauru and Workchoices were streets ahead of anything this ratbag bunch have ever come up with where does the Lady Liar turn now? She's even managed to put the unions off-side.

In some respects it's a pity that the 'dear departed' are no longer with us...it would have been interesting to see how they would defend the indefensible and a government that sees its end and political oblivion looming closer and closer.

Perhaps we ought to start running a book on when they will do a U turn or scrap NBN, the Carbon Tax and the Minining Resource Tax.

[Slasher]

Not so funny now is it.

G57SURE2FK0

[Pinky the pilot]

A comment from the Immigration Minister that he was not ruling anything out was rather interesting in that most of the Journos have assumed that to mean that processing on Nauru and Temporary Protection Visas (ie John Howards 'Pacific Solution') may be re-introduced.

Now wouldn't that be a bitter pill for this blitheringly incompetent shower of manure Government to swallow! Most observers would assume then that Labor were admitting that JH had actually got it right!

What does it take to get rid of this shower of schiessen? Armed revolution??

Better get the tumbrils out of storage first.:eek:

But who was it that said words to the effect; 'Come the revolution, first shoot all the lawyers.':hmm::confused::eek:

[MTOW]

Juliar was on the radio ("rayyydieo") today saying that the High Court decision puts the Australian (illegal/irregular, call it what you will) immigration situation into a completely new light, which translates into "I'll be able to spin (yet another) policy shift tomorrow that I couldn't possibly have attempted to get away with yesterday".

While Nauru might now be back on the (very edge of the proverbial) table, I think that Labor still recognises it, no matter how much sense it may make, as absolute political suicide. For that reason, I think they'll opt for onshore processing ahead of Nauru. Even though that will be (yet another) unmitigated disaster, as once the economic immigrants are onshore, David Manne and his team will be able, at taxpayers' (great) expense, to use every trick in the book to extend their stay here.





Ministerial responsibility seems to be a tradition no longer in place in Australian politics. If it was, Chris Bowen would have fallen on his sword yesterday, within minutes of the High Court decision being made public. But then again, he should have done that on about six occasions since he became Minister for Cassonova*.

(*Completely f***ing up everything he touches.)

[Al Fentanyl]

Can anyone explain to me, in simple terms, why - having fled their homeland in fear of life from religious or political nutters (fair enough) - these 'refugees' do not stop in the first safe place they come to, but continue on through several countries that are signatories to the UNHCR accord to Australia?

Is it the guarantee of free health care, legal aid, resettlement, education, unemployment benefits, pensions / disability payments etc?

Doesn't that make them 'economic' rather than genuine refugees?

A genuine question, not a redneck sh!t stir.

[sisemen]

Doesn't that make them 'economic' rather than genuine refugees?

Probably.

However, anyone taking bets as to how long this government will last? The Prime Minister challenging the High Court Judge. How close to the abandonment of democracy and the rule of law does this shower want to take us?

It's fortunate that, at least, we are able to discuss this on DG&P. This is, I suspect, one of those 'Whitlam' moments that we will be talking about for decades to come. Shame that the Cane Toad Wheel is no longer in existence.

[CoodaShooda]

How close to the abandonment of democracy and the rule of law does this shower want to take us?



Well we seem to have quite a few new detention camps springing up around the place.

If GetUp adopts a brown shirted uniform, I might just start worrying. :E

[Worrals in the wilds]

Separating the genuines from the economics takes time, trained staff, overseas criminal checks, intelligence and liaison with relevant ethnic groups ('Al Fangi isn't an Afghani because his accent's wrong and he doesn't know what colour the boat shed in Kabul is :}'). All very boring stuff that costs money, something the current government has been loathe to commit to border protection, particularly when it attracts little publicity.

Despite media stunts and telly shows, the fact remains that the border agencies have been chronically understaffed and under-resourced for years. The High Court has decided that shoving the problem out the door hasn't worked and the government's just got to deal with it.

They can hardly argue that the current High Court is anti Labor :E.

The Prime Minister challenging the High Court Judge.

She can whine all she likes, the High Court is not answerable to her or anyone else. They're the High Court, the last avenue of appeal. Any Australian (including the PM) can take a matter to the High Court but they have to wear the decision.

In a 6-1 decision it seems petty to attack one of the six. The whole thing is very uncool.

[MTOW]

Surely to God if there's a law in the statute books that prevents a soverign government from having any say as to who enters or does not enter that country then that law must be rescinded without delay.

If it is not, for all intents and purposes, we may as well dispense with all immigration facilities and border protection and 'welcome' everyone who wishes to come live here.






The prime Minister keeps rattling on about destroying the people smugglers' business model. For the life of me, I can't see why she doesn't simply say "Apply for asylum at the first Australian Consulate or Embassy you pass after leaving the country in which you were persecuted and your application will be dealt with; present yourself UNINVITED at our border having bypassed even one of our embassies, be it in a boat or a plane, no matter how worthy or deserving your case may be, it will NOT be dealt with and you will NOT receive permanent residency under any circumstances."

End of story.

[Worrals in the wilds]

The issue is the UN Convention relating to the status of refugees, which Australia is a party to.

[VK2TVK]

^^^^ agree totally! ^^^^

[sisemen]

Trade Minister Craig Emerson described Ms Gillard as “a strong leader”, saying that was what Australians wanted.


“They expect leaders to make tough decisions even if those decisions aren’t always popular in the short term,” he told ABC Radio.

“If you just got up, rolled out of bed every morning, checked the latest opinion polls then that is itself a betrayal of the Australian people.”

I thought that was what they had been doing.

Chief government whip Joel Fitzgibbon dismissed suggestions Ms Gillard lacked authority.

“Julia Gillard enjoys the support of caucus and will lead the party to the next election,” he said.



Ah well, that's official then. They're well into the process of selecting another leader.

http://www.hotink.com/wacky/mfiles/m-ani.gif

[CoodaShooda]

And Bill Shorten has declared his support for Ms Gillard.

She must be worried. :E

[Worrals in the wilds]

...:uhoh: Do Simona do a range of corporate suits with body armor inserts? Best she order one :}.

I'm blown away that there appears to have been no backup plan. They seem to have just assumed the High Court would fall in with them to the extent that no-one came up with a Plan B. The arrogance and/or ineptitude is absolutely staggering.

[CoodaShooda]

I thought Malaysia was Plan C after the East Timor plan B fell over. :confused:

Plan A was the dismantling of the Libs Pacific Solution; authored by one
J Gillard.

[bob johns]

Opt out of UN and make decisions for the good of Australia and to hell with the rest.

[Pinky the pilot]

The South Aussie 'Advertiser' newspaper today has quoted an un-named Labor Politician as saying that they should never have changed/abandoned Howard's Pacific Solution as 'nothing has worked since.':rolleyes:

Trade Minister Craig Emerson described Ms Gillard as “a strong leader”, saying that was what Australians wanted.


And Bill Shorten has declared his support for Ms Gillard.

Anyone else hear what I hear? The sounds of knives being sharpened.:uhoh:

And Craig Emerson only got it half right.:rolleyes:

[Andu]

I wonder if the Liberal Party's number crunchers have looked into how many votes they'd actually lose* if Tony Abbott announced tomorrow that if elected, he would withdraw from the UN Refugee Convention?

(*i.e., how many of the latte-sipping voters, [I accept there'd obviously be quite a few], who would doubtlessly be outraged at such a move, would have voted for the Libs in the first place [if he did not take that radical course of action]? My guess would be close to zero.)

On the other hand, I suspect it would win him a large number of votes from the traditionally Labor-voting outer suburban electorates where many of the economic refugees are settled in (for others) hard to find government housing.

Now that the 'welcome all' mat has been well and truly put outside our front door, any bets on how long it will be before we see a larger ship (or multiple smaller boats travelling in company) with a far larger load of economic immigrants aboard than the 50 to 100 that's become the standard load? (It must have crossed the minds of both the people smugglers and their clients that 500 to 1000 arriving in one hit at Christmas Island would force the Australian government to move them elsewhere immediately, and now, 'elsewhere' is only one place - the Promised Land.)

To give an aviation analogy, does this High Court decision usher in the Jumbo era of irregular immigration?

[aroa]

the Jumbo era has been here for years. I read that there are many 1000s who fly in and "disappear".. into the kitchens, building sites, orchards, wherever. 'Agents', lower wages and all.

Boaties get the publicity, so its an upfront issue. And it doesnt seem like any goverment in any country can effectively deal with it.
Remember, the UNHCR says there are about 50 million out there on the move, for one reason or another.

Nice to see the 'Minister of No Consequence' getting a touch up the other day...problem with these political apparatchiks (?) its all like water of a ducks back to them.
Their concrete brains have set. and we the people have to suffer for it. :uhoh:

We need more Arab spring in our step.:ok:

[Frank Arouet]

Shorten and his Mother in law, (GG) represent a serious conflict of interest. His ascent to PM would be catalyst, (bordering on incest), for another High Court challenge.

This grubby mob of Republicans, including The Queen's Representative are so arrogant, they feel it is their right to interfere with the separation of powers when it suits them, but only last week Gillard was bleating about NSW Liberal's allegedly breaching that same divide when State Police were involved in the sleazy goings on of Mr T.

Albanese today defended the right of protest by radical left wingers, yet damned some truck drivers from doing the same.

His Liberal equivalent would have been lynched.

A pox on the lot of them!

[LeadSled]

Well we seem to have quite a few new detention camps springing up around the place.

If GetUp adopts a brown shirted uniform, I might just start worrying. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

CoodaShooda,
Maybe we should be honest and call them concentration camps!!!???
Tootle Pip!!

[Worrals in the wilds]

the Jumbo era has been here for years. I read that there are many 1000s who fly in and "disappear".. into the kitchens, building sites, orchards, wherever. 'Agents', lower wages and all.A lot of them are Poms, too. Overstayers are a far bigger illegal immigration problem in terms of numbers than irregular arrivals (whether by sea or air) as was the case even before the Howard solution. The difference is that there's not a lot of political mileage or news-as-entertainment to be made out of Joe Smith who arrived on a tourist visa in 1995 and never got around to going back to the UK.
Boatloads of swarthy looking people are more newsworthy than middle aged Poms, Indian cabbies and female Korean 'students' with interesting night jobs in the entertainment/service industry (Maybe Cert IV in 'Busty Jap, natural DD, friendly, I/O calls' should be VTEC approved?) :ooh: :}

[CoodaShooda]

Concentration camps LS.

Designed by the Brits

Refined by the Germans

(Inevitably) F**ked up by the modern ALP


It will be interesting to see how governable Australia remains after the New Labor experiment at state and federal level has run its course.

[bob johns]

A pox on the UN A known travelling cocktail party at best or a sink of 3 rd world despotic corruption at worst. What does Australia owe this sewer? Nothing! They suck on the tit of.perceived, Western guilt when the corrupt scum of the leader ship of the recipient nations piss it all up against the wall. In 1973 I was flying a light aircraft.in Bangladesh for a maritime salvage co.(BWCC)Ship loads of relief .supplies.were. held up until import duties were paid and any new contracts needed 10%over the top for Dash !I was at a social function one night ,glass in hand as you do,when I was approached by an official of the UN( an Indian sahib )who seemed amused at my .Aussie accent.We chatted about nothing in particular for a few minutes then he almost spat out You people down there dont really think you can keep that continent.all to your selves do you? Because that when Rhodesia is gone and South Africa is crushed you lot are next.My non diplomatic reply was, in Australia we shoot on average 5million kangaroos and ferals a year most Aussies have got a rifle ,gun controls wont work so come and have ago you bl--k c--t. I then picked up my dummy then went home. He was right ,aided and abetted by our own leadership the UN are shafting this country as no declared enemy country ever could. We have to get rid of them and make our own bloody decisions to suit us.

[Worrals in the wilds]

It will be interesting to see how governable Australia remains after the New Labor experiment at state and federal level has run its course.
It'll be governable in the same way an accident site is manageable. Situation? Casualties? Rescuables? Unavoidable losses? Ugly all 'round and bound to be a fustercluck.

As for states, ours is easy. It's broke. Absolutely frigging broke. Call anyone you know in any state department and the answer is the same; 'We'd love to help but there's no money. You'll just have to sacrifice the koalas :}'. A fine predicament for the Sunshine State that's full of mines and happy fruit like pineapples and bananas.

That's what years of Labor and equal years of dysfunctional opposition brings. I blame both sides equally, because I firmly believe that Queenslanders would have thrown out the ALP years ago IF there had been a viable opposition. There hasn't been, so the ALP have limped along recklessly spending more money and stuffing up more departments through partisan senior appointments and grovelling middle managers.

Now the Flood Report's out and guess what, Bligh; You :mad:ed it Big Time! All the TV crossovers in the world to you in your moleskins aren't going to trump the footage of the Wivenhoe less than a metre below the fuseplug walls. Have you read about what happens with a dam overtop, Bligh? Have you read the uncensored version of the Dam Operating Manual where it talks about how Australia's third biggest city would completely lose its CBD and several inner suburbs to a wall of water and debris, how the power, comms and sewerage infrastructure would be destroyed beyond reapair, how one million people would be left with a few days' water that was in the pipes and absolutely nothing else? The inquiry did you a favour and nikko penned the contentious bits with the nasty fatality type stuff in the interests of 'counter terrorism'. Isn't that nice? Do you realise how :mad:ing close it got or did your flunkies hide that from you in the interests of 'warm and fuzzy'?

Have you read about the impact of twice as much water as Sydney Harbour hitting Brisbane at speed plus the debris from the dam wall itself, and we're not just talking about rubble but big friggen boulders and chunks of concrete? You nearly cost the cities, guys. You nearly destroyed Brisbane and Ipswich through your ineptitude, lack of foresight, lack of balls/ovaries, policital motivations (We Believe in Water Conservation because the Courier Mail's Bogan Response Unit tells us to :yuk:) and sheer inadequacy as leaders. You couldn't even spend New Year's Eve in Rockhampton when it was devastated by floods because Joolya sent you an invitation to the Sydney Fireworks. No floods there, never mind that one of Queensland's bigger cities was underwater and might have enjoyed some fireworks and celebutards too.

It didn't happen and you have the gall to pat yourselves on the back for the "Flood Response" that came from ordinary citizens while you were posing for the :mad:ing cameras. Then you had the gall to means test donations that were made in good faith so your feral supporters were covered and wage earners were left high and muddy. If I had ever known what was going to happen to the Premier's Flood Appeal fund I would never have advertised it on Jetblast. I would have suggested (as wiser and more cynical posters did) that donations should go to Vinnies or the Salvos where political mileage is not such a priority.

Anyway, rant over but to comment on your State level New Labor, I f:mad:ing hate them. I hate them more than any Queensland government that has existed in my lifetime, even more than Joh who was likeable in a mad uncle kind of way. I hate them because I believe that they fiddled while Rome flooded, because they appointed their little mates to positions of power regardless of competence (throughout the public service in health, legal, envrironment, libraries and countless other important areas), because their ineptitude nearly destroyed the two cities and most of all...because they don't even have the decency to admit to it and still gob off on the telly about how great they are. :yuk::yuk::yuk:

You may have already gathered that :}.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Worrals I guess the difference is that visa overstayers at least had a visa one upon a time and don't have access to public funds, medicare and endless free legal advice. Doesn't make it right, but surely a refelction on a dysfunctional system if they can get away with it for so long.

I'm no fan of detention centres (by the way Northam is still just a patch of cleared bush and no more, flew over it yesterday) but do think TPVs made a lot more sense and kept us in line with the outdated UN convention, which as I understand it was for people fleeing from Communist eastern europe, if they survived the border crossing; and defecting ballet dancers and acrobats! Completely out of date now, another road to hell paved with good intentions.

I was nearly sick when I heard the "lost opportuinty" speech on the radio. A lost opportunity for this Fabian communist to do the decent thing and resign. But I guess she would like to do to the High Court what her mate Blair did to the House of Lords before she goes.

MEanwhile how many opportunities is Australia losing every day while this lot are in power. Still, it defelects attention away from the stench of the Craig Thompson scandal!

I am reminded of how she said she had more chance of playing in an AFL team than being PM etc etc etc. :zzz:

[Andu]

Whew! I'm near exhausted after reading Worral's carefully considered post! Try cleaning that up a bit, Worrals, and post it on Tim Blair's or Bolta's blogs.

I think the one big difference between the many overstayers and the irregular arrivals is the one CFI has already pointed out - an overstayer lives among us, making a living (perhaps holding down a job that might have gone to an Australian, but at least supporting him/herself).

An irregular arrival, on the other hand, is usually a forward scout for his extended family, the first of ten or more he/she will bring out under the family reunion scheme - and, if the report released last year is to be believed, he/she and the nine or ten who'll follow him/her into the country, in four cases out of five, will all still be firmly sucking on the public teat five years (and who knows how many years afterwards?) after 'irregularly' arriving here.

The elephant in the room, (make that 'the mammoth'), that David Manne, Sarah Hansen-Young and co. never address, is, (unlike the vast majority of overstayers), how many of these irregular arrivals have no ability - and even more importantly, no intention - of ever fitting in to our society except to know intimately the inner workings of the CentreLink system. They arrive and, to the very best of their ability, set about re-creating the society they 'escaped' from within Australian society - and demanding that Australia and Australians roll over and comply.

Some will recall that the father of the little Somali (now Australian) girl mauled to death by a pit bull terrier last week was back in Somalia 'visiting' when his child was attacked. Has any journo asked how long he'd been back in Somalia 'visiting'? (You know, Somalia, the country that was so dangerous for him that he had to escape from it with his family.)

I've heard of cases like this on many occasions, where Dad returns home to take up his business again after depositing the family in Oz, where Mum, with none or minimal English, remains with the kids. (And, five will get you ten, NOT relying totally on Dad to send funds from the old country every fortnight to survive!)

Another report last year said that 80% - eighty ***ing percent!!!! - of Tamils given permanent residency in Australia after escaping persecution in Sri Lanka return there for a visit within 12 months of receiving Australian residency.


TPVs really need to be re-introduced.

[jas24zzk]

We should all be aware, that the smugglers have embarked on a boat replacement scheme.

With the courts ruling, they have have been emobledened enough to begin phase 2.


ImageShack® - Online Photo and Video Hosting (http://imageshack.us/photo/my-images/827/indiax.gif/)

[Worrals in the wilds]

Worrals I guess the difference is that visa overstayers at least had a visa one upon a time and don't have access to public funds, medicare and endless free legal advice.Fair enough, I hadn't considered that. They also have to fly under the radar and behave themselves, because a lot who do get caught (and subsequently deported) first come to notice after being arrested for a minor offence, getting a parking ticket or similar.

I had no problem with the TPV system. FWIW I do see a lot of African refugees in Brisbane working, integrating and generally settling down. It's not across the board of course and it may be different in other cities, but no immigrant group is going to be 100% squeaky clean (as anyone who's dealt with Irish backpackers knows only too well, mad brawlers the lot of them and that's just the girls...:eek:).

I'm no fan of extended welfare for anyone, whether they're new to the place or 5th generation Aussies. As long as there are enough learn English programs and stuff to get people settled (and there are quite a lot of support agencies and programs that go unnoticed by the media) there should be no reason for most refugees to be out of work.

Thanks, Andu! I feel better now...:O

[bob johns]

Does anyone remember the Goofy one trying to give all of the Torres Strait Islands to PNG (All North of 10 degrees South?) I also seem to remember old Joh B-P scuppering Goofs plans by declaring the Torres Straits a municipality which are outside of Canberras sphere of influence,. therefore holding onto Aussie land rather than cede to a soon to fail state. Love the old goat or hate him at least old Joh had Australias welfare as a first priority.And I also understand when he went Qld was in the black financially..

[Andu]

Asylum 'kids' in last-gasp bid for smokes | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/asylum-kids-in-last-gasp-bid-for-smokes/story-fn59niix-1226128447894)


ASYLUM-SEEKERS claiming to be minors among the group spared deportation this week are so frustrated by a ban on smoking they are considering changing their stories to say they are adults.

Some of the 57 "unaccompanied minors" are addicted to smoking and increasingly irritated by a ban on cigarettes within their detention compound on Christmas Island, sources say.

Asylum-seeker adults are allowed to smoke by the Department of Immigration and Citizenship but this is not the case for the unaccompanied minors, with the department applying Australian laws to the group.

The source, who does not want to be named, said there were some among the males who were clearly children but others who were obviously over 18.

[MTOW]

Does this look familiar, in anything from NBN, Global Warming a.k.a. Climate Change, pick any one of our recent Defence (non) purchases, GFC bailout?

Dunning (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dunning%E2%80%93Kruger_effect)

The Dunning–Kruger effect is a cognitive bias in which unskilled people make poor decisions and reach erroneous conclusions, but their incompetence denies them the metacognitive ability to recognize their mistakes.[1] The unskilled therefore suffer from illusory superiority, rating their ability as above average, much higher than it actually is, while the highly skilled underrate their own abilities, suffering from illusory inferiority. Actual competence may weaken self-confidence, as competent individuals may falsely assume that others have an equivalent understanding. As Kruger and Dunning conclude, "the miscalibration of the incompetent stems from an error about the self, whereas the miscalibration of the highly competent stems from an error about others" (p. 1127).[2]
The effect is about paradoxical defects in cognitive ability, both in oneself and as one compares oneself to others.

Maybe it could take on a sub title for us antipodeans: The Dullard-Duck Effect.

[Andu]

Juliar Gillard's refusal to stand down has been likened (on the Andrew Bolt Blog) to Peter Seller's stellar 'death scene' in his very funny movie, 'The Party'. The 'death is long lasting, if not quite as long as a Rob Oakeshott would have stretched it. :)

Worth the watch (whatever your politics). Very funny.

The Party, Peter Sellers - YouTube

[sisemen]

With the continuing nosedive of this incompetent government one wonders whether the sitcom about Joolyar and Tim due to be shown on ABC1 on Thursday will get pulled at the last minute?

I suspect that the ALP fan club at the ABC probably thought that it might give Joolyar a bit of a lift in the ratings if we, the great unwashed, were able to see her in a humorous light.

Trouble is, with a totally dysfunctional government, making a comedy about the Prime Minister is likely to backfire ....big time! Just points up the fact that she is a big joke.

[Andu]

On the ABC news this morning: "New asylum seekers to be processed in Australia".

MTOW had it right a week ago - (see post 146):

While Nauru might now be back on the (very edge of the proverbial) table, I think that Labor still recognises it, no matter how much sense it may make, as absolute political suicide. For that reason, I think they'll opt for onshore processing ahead of Nauru. Even though that will be (yet another) unmitigated disaster, as once the economic immigrants are onshore, David Manne and his team will be able, at taxpayers' (great) expense, to use every trick in the book to extend their stay here.On the same ABC bulletin, it said that 12% of Australians approve of the way the ALP is handling the asylum seekers problem.

Put in non-ABCspeak, that means 78% of Australians disapprove of Labor's handling of the current self-imposed asylum seeker debacle.

The boats arriving at Christmas Island are soon going to look like finals on 27R at Heathrow.

[VK2TVK]

Interpret that as "12% of Australians are too probably stupid to be allowed to vote" :)

[Pinky the pilot]

An article in The Australian stated that the Solicitor General gave advice that the High Court's decision has effectively prohibited 'offshore processing.'

Is that the same Solicitor General who previously gave advice that the 'Malaysian Solution' was good and sound policy?:confused:

Interpret that as "12% of Australians are too probably stupid to be allowed to vote"

Indeed! One day way back in the Whitlam years I remember some politician, name now long forgotten, who stated in a long rant that some of his ilk treated the average voter as blithering idiots.

My now late Father upon hearing that comment quietly remarked,
''That's because some of them bloody well are!'':hmm:

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Taanks for that youtube clip Andu! :D

[aroa]

The Labour Party?

Great job by Pete there, of doing a death throes skit on the demise of the ALP.! :D

Thanks for the laugh..!

[Frank Arouet]

The "dying swan" routine most favoured by the end procession at the Gay Mardi Gras in Sydney is probably a more accurate act describing the death throes of The Australian Labor Party.

Peter Sellers gets 100% for effort, but only 95% for artistic value.

I'll wait for Bob Brown's performance before giving any more accolades. I doubt even The Simpsons could better that or the "independants" Shakespearian rendition.

'et tu brute':D

[Worrals in the wilds]

I don't think they read Shakespeare.

"Keep thy foot out of brothels, thy hand out of plackets, thy pen from lenders' books, and defy the foul fiend."
- William Shakespeare, King Lear, 3.4.96 :}
(Plackets mean either slits in a skirt or pockets. Both make sense in this context :E).

P.S. Great clip, I'd never seen it before. Funny, funny man. :ok:

[Cactusjack]

The Labour Party?
Great job by Pete there, of doing a death throes skit on the demise of the ALP.! :D Sure it isn't Peter Beattie? Recent rumour was that this a#sclown was going to take a crack at Federal politics! His claim to fame? Leaving Queensland in the hands of Anna Bligh, and also doing absolutely nothing for 10 years, spending not a cent of Queenslands mining royalties on infrastructure then pi#sing off and leaving Bligh a poison chalice when the cracks started appearing.....Fools.
As for federal Labor in general, I used to be a stalwart Labor supporter, it ran through my veins. But now you have a bunch of incompetent numbnuts lead by a red haired a#sclown loyally followed by Swanny, the 'faceless men' and a handful of former Union heavyweights who I voted for without a second thought, what a letdown. The stench around Labor is more putrid than what wafted around two of the greatest fukcfaces of all time - team Howard and Costello, the pompus arrogant trash. Dont mention Bob Brown and his hippy followers more concerned about the quality of fertilizer around Parliament house and what color the fu*king daffodils are !!

Unless Labor can get the red haired clown to resign soon and re-appoint Ruddy they are done for. Swanny doesnt have the testicular fortitude and Smith has the personality of a wet fart.
Either way we are up sh#t creek without a paddle. Decades of debt in front of us and the only Australians who truly benefit are the Political turds themselves or people like Clive Palmer, Dick's Smith and that greedy blood sucking parasite Gerry Harvey.
Now, who wants to debate the Australian cricket team..........

[Andu]

Unless Labor can get the red haired clown to resign soon and re-appoint Ruddy they are done for.I cannot believe how short people's memories are for ANYONE to say they'd like to see a Krudd return. Anyone who had forgotten how truly cringeworthily awful the man is need only to have watched his performance during the recent visit to Australia of Ban Kee Moon. The faux 'blokeiness' and his truly awful use of nicknames for the man he hopes one day to replace was cringeworthy in the extreme.

Rudd managed to complete only one thing successfully during his (thankfully short) sorry reign - he said 'sorry', twice!, for things that neither he nor anyone else either alive or not long retired was in any way responsible for.

Similarly, Gillard has achieved only one thing of a positive nature since her coup - she has done the near impossible, and something I for one thought no one could achieve. She has managed to make Rudd look good.

[Pinky the pilot]

She has managed to make Rudd look good.

Struth! She's even made ol' Goof's administration appear halfway competant!:ooh:

Then again, that was 36 years ago and memory does fade.:}

I wouldn't worry too much about a possible return of Kruddy. According to various un-named Labor MPs quoted in the media, the only person who wants him back is Krudd himself.:*

Labor would look completely desperate and without any clue if they ditched Juliar just to return the one she knifed.

[Ovation]

Ozone created by electric cars now killing millions in the seventh largest country in the world "Little India" formerly known as Australia.

Tasmania executes last remaining Greenie.

White minorities still trying to have English recognised as Australia's third language.

Children from two-parent heterosexual families bullied in schools for being 'different'. Tolerance urged.

Gay Marriages now overtake heterosexual marriages as preferred 'lifestyle' choice.

Kookaburra and platypus plague threatens North Western Australia crops and livestock.

Melbourne schoolgirl expelled for not wearing Burqa: Being a Christian is no excuse says school. Sharia law must be enforced.

Japan announces that they will no longer consume whale meat as whales are now extinct and the scientific research fleet are unemployed. Australian Government has told the Japanese that Cane Toads taste like whale meat.

Australia now has ten Universities of Political Correctness. Professor Goldman of ANU says there is still a long way to go in the fight to stop people saying what they think.

Australian Deficit 10 $Trillion dollars and rising. Government declares return to surplus in 100 years which is 300 years ahead of time. Prime Minister Mohammed Yousuf claims increased growth through more immigration is the secret to success.

Wall Street banks merge to form new super bank, Goldman Rothschild Ebeneezer Epstein Drescher (GREED): Huge bonuses paid to executives to celebrate launch.

Baby conceived naturally ! Scientists stumped.

Iran still quarantined. Physicists estimate it will take at least ten more years before radioactivity decreases to safe levels.

France pleads for global help after being taken over by Islamic Countries. No other country volunteers to come forward to help the beleaguered nation ! Serves them right.

Castro finally dies at age 112. Cuban cigars can now be imported legally, but President Chelsea Clinton has banned all smoking..

Jose Manuel Rodrigez Bush says he will run for second term as US President in 2032.

Australia Post raises price of stamps to $18 and reduces mail delivery to Wednesdays only.

After a ten year $75.8 billion study, commissioned by the Labor Party: Scientists prove Diet and Exercise is the key to weight loss.

Average weight of an Australian drops to 115 kgs.

Global cooling blamed for citrus crop failure for third consecutive year in Victoria India and New South Iraq.

Japanese scientists have created a camera with such a fast shutter speed they can now photograph a woman with her mouth shut.

Senate still blocking drilling in Canberra even though petrol is selling for 5,000 Rupees per litre and petrol stations are only open on Tuesdays and Fridays.

Supreme Court rules punishment of criminals violates their civil rights. Victims to be held partly responsible for crime.

Average height of professional basketball players is now nine feet, seven inches.

New federal law requires that all nail clippers, screwdrivers, fly swatters and rolled-up newspapers must be registered by January 2035 as lethal weapons.

Australian Tax Office sets lowest tax rate in decades at 75 percent.

Carlton won this years National Footy final beating the Hindu Hornets 20-11 to 13-18

Southern Asia (formerly Northern Territory ) voters still having trouble with voting machines.

If you're still around in 2030, I bet some of this becomes reality.

[Fubaar]

After Ovation's offering, I think we all need a bit of cheering up.

This dog is cool (no pun intended [see the middle bit]).

Surfin´ Bulldog (Beach Boys - Surfin´ USA) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch_popup?v=cqxTUxzOceE&feature=youtube_gdata_plaJ)

[Worrals in the wilds]

According to various un-named Labor MPs quoted in the media, the only person who wants him back is Krudd himself.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/bah.gifAnd the Courier Mail for some reason. :hmm:
Rudd still has a support base in Brisbane. I'm not one of them.
Bob Brown and his hippy followers more concerned about the quality of fertilizer around Parliament house and what color the fu*king daffodils are !!
True. They certainly don't make much noise about environmental issues. The recent swag of disasters up here had an enormous environmental impact, but there wasn't a chirrup to be heard from the Greens. Guess they're too busy running the country to be worried about rare frogs and dugongs.

[sisemen]

Watching the arrival ceremony of Her Imperial Majesty Juliar in New Zealand I am sure that the rest of us, like me, thought "why doesn't the tatooed bloke with hardly any clothes just follow through with the spear?"

Woulda saved us a lot of bother :E

[Captain Sand Dune]

Gee, the Usual Suspects have been quiet of late!:E

[Pinky the pilot]

Gee, the Usual Suspects have been quiet of late!

Yeah, funny 'bout that!:}

Got a surprise reading yesterday's Australian; Saw the article written by that 'tired old leftie' (as I once saw him decribed) Philip Adams entitled
'Let Rudd resume rightful role' and started with the words
Julia, resign.

Anyone else a bit surprised over that? I mean, whoda thunk it??:ooh:

[Captain Sand Dune]

Yes, surprising that!

IMHO, after Keating (like him or loathe him) the ALP have not had decent leadership. They have relied on their rusted-on hard core voters and lots of spin and scare-mongering to stay in power. Which implies that your average Australian voter is pretty dim, I guess. Which is also why I disagree with compulsory voting.

[CoodaShooda]

Adams' piece was surprising until you remember that he's a good mate of Kevin 11. :ooh:

Has Laurie Oakes joined the chorus yet?

The leadership debate is a pleasant distraction but I fear that we are about to have unleashed upon us the mayhem that we predicted several years ago on the cane toad wheel.

Gillard and Brown will be rushing through as many of their progressive reforms :yuk: as they can in the time remaining to them.

[sisemen]

Gee, the Usual Suspects have been quiet of late!

Now they might not have been too gifted in the intelligence department but, credit where credit's due - even they have the sense to desert the sinking ship. :}

[Worrals in the wilds]

Gee, the Usual Suspects have been quiet of late!http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/evil.gif

I think we've been written off as a lost cause. The dwindling faithful are certainly busy saturation bombing all their Fakebook 'friends' with propaganda :zzz:. I've got a couple of well meaning but deluded leftie mates who are about to be defriended if they keep it up. I guess once the newspapers, TV, radio and even crusty ol' bulletin boards are onto the fact that the federal ALP's going to need a decompression chamber to recover from this debacle, annoying people on Fakebook is all they've got left.

If even Adams has been publicly critical (even if it's due to his mate Rudd, and IIRC he didn't stand up for Rudd at the time of his overthrow) I think the rusted on supporters are rapidly flaking off. Oakes is still toeing the party line and starting to sound really silly.

[sisemen]

Dr Death, aka De Facto Prime Minister, aka Bob Brown (now is that a good name for a gay or what?) reckons that the majority of Australians support the Greens policy on asylum seekers.

Oh boy, is he in for a shock at the next election.

[CoodaShooda]

Par for the course for Brown and his somewhat tenuous grip on reality.

This is the man who thought Darwin was the best place to launch the Greens' anti-fishing and anti-hunting policies during the last campaign.

A real local vote winner - not.

Up here, the only time you're not out fishing is when you've taken the dogs out looking for pigs.

[Andu]

I see Jools is back from Auckland (early) with an agreement to allow Pacific Islanders to come to Australia to work on farms.

Hmmmm.... a few years ago, they had another name for a similar scheme of 'hiring' Islander labour.

It was 'Blackbirding'.


I wonder if any of the cartoonists will pick up on that?

And I still struggle with the idea that we pay (quite a few) people long term unemployment benefits and then *****ing blithely announce we're IMPORTING labour from overseas.

[Captain Sand Dune]

And I still struggle with the idea that we pay (quite a few) people long term unemployment benefits and then *****ing blithely announce we're IMPORTING labour from overseas.
Your average Labour voter is quite happy with the concept! Bring on non-compulsory voting.

[Andu]

I should have said "And I still struggle with the idea that we pay (quite a few) people long term unemployment benefits and then *****ing blithely announce we're IMPORTING unskilled labour from overseas."

[Worrals in the wilds]

Some of our long term unemployed are pretty much unemployable.

Some years ago I had experience with several 'work for the dole' people in a (non aviation) small business. They were basically free labour but even then only two out of six were keepable. The other four were so incompetent that their actions cost us money and we had to cancel the deal. The worst of it was, they all wanted to work but were such operational hazards that you just couldn't take the chance. This was basic unskilled office work; filing, answering phones, putting stuff away etc that the average ten year old could manage if you showed them how.

I didn't realise how stupid some people are until that experience. I'm not generally a fan of long term benefits, but with these sort of people, I dunno what else you could do with them unless you want them living in boxes on the street a la India.
Of course they all have a vote, too. :E

[Andu]

New asylum-seeker boat a sign of things to come? | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/immigration/partnership-tested-as-julia-gillard-rejects-bob-browns-asylum-attack/story-fn9hm1gu-1226133220344)

72 more happy campers.

I don't know why we don't just start charging the 'irregular immigrants' a visa fee on arrival.

...oh, that's right. We can't, because they don't have a passport to put the visa stamp in.

[sisemen]

Dump Jooliar and bring back Kevin 747? Smaaart move. The level of intellect that produced this one is stellar.

http://www.hotink.com/wacky/mfiles/m-ani.gif

[bob johns]

Been away from informed comment for a few days.Does anyone know exactly why UN sec general Ban Kai Moon (or what ever ) was in Australia last week ? Was it to stroke the Duds ego ? or to give the Red Whore her instructions for the next sitting?I would like to think that it was to oversee Australias withdrawal from that sewer of corruption but as I just saw a dozen pigs over fly the woolshed I would have to live in hope.

[sisemen]

Foreign Minister Kevin Rudd flies out to Mexico and the United States on Wednesday amid reports he has set a new international benchmark for travel.Mr Rudd will make his first bilateral visit to Mexico before attending a forum advancing the Australia-US alliance.

....Also on the agenda are more lobbying for a seat on the UN Security Council.

.....The foreign minister's travel bill topped $1 million in his first nine months in the job. Mr Rudd had now eclipsed his global counterparts, including US Secretary of State Hillary Clinton, as among the world's most travelled foreign ministers

.....He has not travelled to Malaysia, he hasn't travelled to East Timor, he hasn't travelled to the region

This bloke's making hay while the sun shines ... at our expense. He knows that the ALP is fcuked.

[Andronikos]

You're all class Bob.

Why don't you pour yourself another bourbon, load the 12 gauge and return to that rocking chair on the porch.

[Metro man]

New asylum-seeker boat a sign of things to come? | The Australian

Time to tear up what ever convention was signed years ago compelling Australia to accept these people. The country just can't afford to provide first world welfare benefits to illegal third world immigrants.

Only 9% of Afghans and 12% of Iranian adults have jobs, even 5 years after arrival most speak little or no English. Denmark found migrants from non western countries cost $3.5 billion a year where as those from western countries contributed $450 million in taxes. (Brisbane Courier Mail 8 May 2011)

The immigrants Australia needs are skilled, English speaking, law abiding and whose culture and religion don't pose a security threat, they must be able to integrate and contribute or it's best they are sent back.

[sisemen]

Hey, Jooliar....

Temporary - not forever, finite end date and can be rescinded if you don't play the game.

Protection - we'll abide by the UN diktats and give you protection from the nasty people that you say that you are escaping from. But protection does not equal a bottomless pit of largesse courtesy of the Oz taxpayer.

Visa - allows you in with a stamp of approval but that stamp must go in your passport or other approved set of papers. Visa can also be overturned. The visa also states that your entry is into a country called Australia; fit in or find somewhere else to your liking. Don't try and impose your values on us. You're the guest - remember?

...do you get it Jooliar???

[Frank Arouet]

She failed "plasticine" in kindy.

What was the question again????

[Dark Knight]

I really cannot stand the voice and can only watch for a few minutes before dry retching sets in.

Saw her on the 7:30 report this evening and she cannot, will not or is unable to answer any questions thinking we do not see thru her deception, devious spin, lack honesty and truth.

The body language shows it all saying I am not telling the truth again.
these are obviously her good points!

JULIA GILLARD - HOW SMART DID THAT LOOK? TRUER WORDS NEVER SPOKEN! - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=mLypjJBvbmI#t=5s)

[Captain Sand Dune]

You're all class Bob.
Why don't you pour yourself another bourbon, load the 12 gauge and return to that rocking chair on the porch.

Well I for one, would happily join Bob in a bourbon or three and practice some target shooting using faces of ALP members.
And Andronikos, ol' mukka - there's plently more of us out there! They're called "average Australians".

[Andronikos]

No Capt, they're not called 'average Australians', they're called Rednecks.

[Andu]

The title of the tread is "Is Australia its own Worst Enemy?"

I fear that the real enemy is the persons (or possibly person SINGULAR who appears here in multi guises) with an apparent aim of descending the debate into a personal slanging match - a place the moderators have shown in the past they're not willing to allow the debate to go.

A disinterested observer might be tempted to opine that this person of many guises wants the thread closed down (as he [or they] managed to do with earlier threads on JetBlast).

With Juliar hellbent on pushing the Malaysia 'solution'(:confused:), I have a question for anyone (one of those superior intellects who's not a 'Redneck') who thinks this is a good idea. If the Malaysia 'plan' proceeds, what will happen when asylum seeker #810 arrives at our shores?

For those who missed it, here's an example of the poor oppressed asylum seekers presenting themselves at Christmas Island. Detainee emails claim 'assaults' - The West Australian (http://au.news.yahoo.com/thewest/a/-/breaking/10252012/detainee-emails-claim-assaults/) ...who make thinly veiled threats that 'something will happen' if they're not treated better.

[404 Titan]

I smell a troll. He signs up only this month to post his grand total of two idiotic posts here on this thread. This nupty wouldn’t know a real redneck if it struck him in the face.:ugh:

[CoodaShooda]

Andronikos

How about trying reasoned argument rather than relying on personal abuse to present your case?

It's its use of the latter strategy that has helped Labor to achieve its current rating in the polls.

Signs in Parliament today of a shift in the government's approach; which, if continued, may see labor bounce back in the polling. They actually tried to put some substance into the normally vituperative invective. (Although this may have been an unanticipated side effect to Harry Jenkins laying down the law on what is or is not permissable in questions and answers.)

Naming a number of the 1 in 6 conservative MP's and Senators who have bought shares in mining and resource companies since Abbott claimed the carbon tax will destroy that sector was also a good move.

Wonder if the Libs will counter by taking the debate back to the original claims for the need to act on climate change. It wouldn't hurt to point out Prof Flannery's purchases of waterfront properties after he claimed climate change would see massive rises in sea level.

And I wonder how many labor MPs have bought shares in resource companies, secure in the belief that their reforms will offer solid returns.

The real problem for the libs is that they are only closet sceptics and they are trying to appeal to sceptics and warmists alike. They'll end up looking phoney to both sides if they maintain this strategy.

I'm starting to think Abbott may be gone as leader before the next election, unless he adapts to the changing circumstances.

What really surprised me was the over the top reaction and attempt to kill off a tame question from my local MP; who asked why, if the Government's policies were going to finish off the illegal boat arrivals, why was the government building an additional 1500 bed detention centre in Darwin?

Albanese worked very hard to have the question ruled out of order but failed and the PM gave the usual, uninformative non-reply. They seemed determined not to talk about the centres.

Perhaps they are being built to house the right wing journos and bloggers who are being targetted by the Conroy/Brown media enquiry. Just what we'll need - re-education camps. :E

[Andu]

The real problem for the libs is that they are only closet sceptics and they are trying to appeal to sceptics and warmists alike. They'll end up looking phoney to both sides if they maintain this strategy.I fear you're pretty close to the money with that comment, Cooda.

I see Obama is coming out for two days in November (to watch the ****ing golf!!!! - which tells us where Australia stands in his priorities). Will this be the modern day equivalent of a Royal tour a la Bob Menzies in the 60s? If the Australian public falls for it and allows Juliar to bask in Obama's reflected glory, I've lost hope. I'm cringing already at the thought of what - and how - she will say at those photo ops with Bazza.

..small mercies though. Imagine how incredibly more cringeworthy the speeches and conversations during those photo ops would be if KRudd was to be back in the PM's seat come November.

[sisemen]

One wonders whether Obama will actually make it. Don't forget he has cancelled twice on the most flimsiest of excuses. And that was almost certainly down to the intelligence (a la Wikileaks) that Rudd was doomed. If the same intelligence is being passed about Jooliar then he won't want to be seen to be giving support to her.

And I think that everyone is on the money about the latest contributor to this thread.

[Worrals in the wilds]

No Capt, they're not called 'average Australians', they're called Rednecks.

The difference being? :E
Actually I don't agree with a lot of Bob Johns' posts, but he's 100% entitled to make them. Freedom of speech and all, which of course is not guaranteed in Australia as there is nothing in the Constitution or federal legislation to do so. The ALP is certainly not a fan. :EIf you don't like a poster's opinion the accepted academic protocol is to post 'Well actually Bob, [reference][reference][reference]. BTW, as per the aforesaid references, I think you're wrong'. Welcome to PPRuNe by the way. You are 1. working in aviation 2. interested in aviation 3. an ALP lackey employed to troll the internet 4. some random poster who came to an aviation bulletin board and was suddenly motivated to be politically aware. Either way, welcome with a big pile of cookies. :}

That's from a redneck from Redneck land aka the Sunshine State. BTW, Bananas are back, people! Buy some and help the producers, they've been having a rough time of it. :ok:

On the off chance the Usual Suspects are right (and they usually are right ;)), LL/RTB/BS/BC whatever user name has gotten through the system...let's support some great Australian music... :}
-9JtRyW2Bps

[Ovation]

The latest revelation on the Carbon (dioxide) Tax is the poison pill in the proposed legislation. If passed, any future government would have great difficulty repealing it because it would be deemed an acquisition of property and "permit holders" would be able to sue for damages.

Here is the link to the article in the Australian: Labor plants poison pills in Carbon Tax (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/labor-plants-poison-pills-in-carbon-tax/story-e6frgd0x-1226138227483)

It becomes easier to understand why some folks at the big end of town want this tax - nothing to do with the environment and all about money :hmm:

[Andronikos]

Point taken Worrals.

Mr Johns, whilst I'm not a huge fan of Julia Gillard, your reference to the PM as a "Red Whore" was cheap, vulgar and insulting to all women.

[sisemen]

"Red whore"? Intemperate and, maybe, over the top but insulting to all women??? It was in context and referred to one woman only.

Given a reading of the link in Ovation's post then one can understand the hatred of the majority of this country to that woman. The woman who glibly said that there would be no carbon tax under a government that I lead. The woman who the majority of people in this country would like to see knifed in the same manner as that which she knifed Rudd the Dud.

What a pity that we cannot charge such people with treason.

the betrayal of a trust or confidence; breach of faith; treachery.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

I wasn't insulted by the comment at all. I loathe the woman too. Though calling anyone a whore is a bit unnecessary.

What I find insulting is that she assumes we voters are all too stupid to see through her fabian ideology and talks to us as if we were primary school children who need to be brainwashed into believing complete nonsense (Santa Claus, religion, the carbon tax will save the world etc) .

Loved the story about her not being able to get on the bus with the other "leaders". Medal for the bus driver! hahaha

[Ovation]

The post by Andronikos expressing outrage at the description of Gillard appears to be an attempt to wind up the regulars (as opposed to the trolls).

Perhaps Andronikos could educate himself by searching on Wikipedia where he'll find quite a lot about Gillard she'd rather not be published such as:

Living with a corrupt Union official and her affair with another Labor parliamentarian is in the public domain, and may (or may not) be the tip of the iceberg.

Gillard also expresses full confidence in an MP who is now alleged to have received secret commissions.

You have to ask yourself:

Is Gillard a moral and ethical person?

Has she demonstrated she is trustworthy?

Does she deserve the confidence of all Australians"?

[Captain Sand Dune]

Whore (noun) [hawr] (insult)

1. an offensive term for a prostitute

2. an offensive term for somebody regarded as being sexually indiscriminate

3. an offensive term for somebody who is regarded as willing to set aside principles or personal integrity I order to obtain something, usually for selfish motives

Yep, reckon Bob got it right first time.

[sisemen]

In a recent speech outlining her "Labor vision" the red w....ooops...Jooliar said

"I am here today to say to you, that fashionable thinking is a mistake - indeed a grave error," she said.

Presumably she meant to add "with the exception of climate change and carbon taxes"

[Frank Arouet]

THE HEALTH SERVICES UNION TODAY SEVERED TIES WITH THE ALP.

Tick Tock, Tick Tock..............

[bob johns]

I .knew this thread was going to be wortwhile. I for one have gained a lot of information that I would missed out on otherwise.If I wished to be a smartarse I could ask Andronikos if his psudoym came from the coffee cup he was taking his latte from but I would nt do that as it may lessen the tone that, generally occurs in this thread. Having said that does anyone forget the vile invective poured on Pauline Hanson ,not only on threads like this one,but on mainstream print,TV and radio? Redneck?I suppose that not being an inner city greenie latte type ,you are spot on ,and about 12years too late for that one..I am not the slightest bit insulted .But if you think that Iam going to stop being rude about the destruction of my country you are quite wrong. Now can you kindly piss off and allow people who REALLY care about our country to get on with discussing how it can be put right .Like a good chap.

[Andu]

Interesting article.

Labor plants poison pills in carbon tax | The Australian (http://www.theaustralian.com.au/national-affairs/opinion/labor-plants-poison-pills-in-carbon-tax/story-e6frgd0x-1226138227483)

IT was Mark Dreyfus QC, Parliamentary Secretary for Climate Change, who let the cat out of the bag.

Once the carbon change legislation is in place, he said, repeal would amount to an acquisition of property by the commonwealth, as holders of emissions permits would be deprived of a valuable asset. As a result, the commonwealth would be liable, under s.51(xxxi) of the Australian Constitution, to pay compensation, potentially in the billions of dollars. A future government would therefore find repeal prohibitively costly.

That consequence is anything but unintended.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

The Fabians are getting a lot less subtle these days, aren't they?...communism to be gradually established avoiding direct confrontation/revolution...?
Is she just one of the stupid ones, or is this the next step towards the New World Order?

[Andronikos]

I could ask Andronikos if his psudoym came from the coffee cup he was taking his latte from

Incorrect assumption Bob. I live in a town of 5000, 10 hours drive to the nearest Gloria Jeans.

but I would nt do that as it may lessen the tone that, generally occurs in this thread

With the possible exception of your previous post.:rolleyes:

[Andu]

communism to be gradually established avoiding direct confrontation/revolution...? This would be in keeping with a long standing tradition in Canberra in everything from education systems to major defence purchases - Canberra's unerring tradition of looking overseas and buying, usually at great expense*, a system that has been proven not to work overseas, the theory apparently being that, despite all the ample evidence to the contrary, WE will get it right.


* If anyone thinks the current Rudd/Gillard 'experiment' isn't going to turn out to incredibly expensive to this nation in the long run, I have this really great bridge you might like to buy...

[Towering Q]

Thanks for the link, CFI.

I'm always getting them confused with Thespians.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Australian Fabian Society - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Australian_Fabian_Society)

[Wiley]

I saw this very droll comment today on the Andrew Bolt blog.

If the Gillard government falls on the Pokie issue, it will be the biggest jackpot payout in Australian history.I couldn't have put it better myself.

[bob johns]

Andronikos.!! So you do forget the poison poured on the other Red Head? As I said on my last posting ,kindly Piss off until you can contribute something positive to get this wonderful country back on track , like a good chap.

[bob johns]

Adding to my recent post I am not going to respond further to that goose . A total waste of space and time . How ever I remain Tenax In Fide to my country.

[Worrals in the wilds]

This would be in keeping with a long standing tradition in Canberra in everything from education systems to major defence purchases - Canberra's unerring tradition of looking overseas and buying, usually at great expense*, a system that has been proven not to work overseas, the theory apparently being that, despite all the ample evidence to the contrary, WE will get it rightWhichever collection of dorks is in charge Canberra usually can't run a bath, so why would a covert Communist takeover be any different? :{
They're like a really lousy small town business that survives purely because they're the only hardware supplier in (let's say) Tamborine. They don't have to be particularly competent because they know that if you need a hammer and you live in Tamborine, they're the only place that sells one. Might I add that the Tamborine Mitre 10 is popularly known as Mitre 5, because it's only got half the stuff you need :}?

No-one's going to launch a takeover bid, because in both cases (the Australian government and Tamborine hardware supplies) the profit/hassle equation doesn't come out in favour of it. Therefore we're stuck with cruddy governments and a lack of decent hammers. Of course you can drive 40 minutes one way down a mountain road to Bunnings and/or move overseas to do business, but both Mitre 5 and the Australian Government know that most people aren't going to do that often enough to put them out of business.

In a way, Tamborine is a microcosm of Australia. Pretty place, nice to live in and lots of tourists visit and say 'Jeez, what a great place. I'd like to come here'. When you point out to them that it's small, inbred and very parochial, all three levels of government will conspire against any real business opportunity, property/infrastructure prices are massive and there is a very small and finite target market, it suddenly looks less attractive. Nice place though, if your actual income comes from outside the area. Try the cheese :E.

[jas24zzk]

This would be in keeping with a long standing tradition in Canberra in everything from education systems to major defence purchases - Canberra's unerring tradition of looking overseas and buying, usually at great expense*, a system that has been proven not to work overseas, the theory apparently being that, despite all the ample evidence to the contrary, WE will get it right

And here my anger rises. I often look back on australia's history, esp aviation production. Our penchant for reinventing the wheel leaves no stone unturned.

Lets have a look.

Wirraway...licenced production of the harvard/texan (whatever name you want to give it today). So heavily redesigned that we should never have needed a licence anyway.


Vampire. So many Aussie only inclusions again....

Canberra...we probably altered that a ****load too.

Sabre.....hell not even the yankee engine was good enough!...another one worthy of its own type certificate.

Mirage....our own spec again...it even almost ended up with a Pomme engine...hybrid just for us.

F-111. C model, only came about because we decided to merge the navys long wing with the USAF's long nose....good thing the yanks thought it was a good idea and kept our costs down.

F/A-18. WE had to have the attack capability....good thing for us the USN also thought it was a good idea.

Lynx. Great off the shelf product. We had to modify it so much, that the requirements for contract were unachievable and we wasted billions on something we don't nor will ever have.

I probably missed some....


TV. PAL.....HA we are compatible with singapore! :mad::mad::mad::mad:

Mobile phones...if Fanberra had its way, when you went O/S you'd have to buy a new handset as yours would have only worked here.

I bet your new digital radio won't work O/S!.....its made to an 'australian (government) standard'

...end rant

[Andu]

PM - Likely new High Court immigration challenge 15/09/2011 (http://www.abc.net.au/pm/content/2011/s3319766.htm)

A group of Legal Aid lawyers says it's preparing for yet another possible High Court challenge to the immigration regime. It could be one more spoke in the wheels of a Federal Government struggling to resurrect its Malaysia Solution plan.

Lawyers in four states and the Northern Territory are now cooperating in an effort to free about 350 alleged people smugglers who face mandatory prison sentences in this country. They're all watching a case which is soon to be heard by the Victorian Court of Appeal.

The lawyers there will argue that, if it is legal for people to claim asylum in Australia, then it shouldn't be illegal for people to bring them here. They say that whatever happens in the Victorian case, it's all highly likely to end up in the High Court.

[Andu]

Julia Gillard to get spin classes after PM sends SOS to image expert | thetelegraph.com.au (http://www.dailytelegraph.com.au/news/gillards-spin-classes/story-e6freuy9-1226139976016)


JULIA Gillard has enlisted the help of an image consultant and media training guru to sharpen up her public performances.

The Sunday Telegraph can reveal the Prime Minister has undertaken intensive coaching at Kirribilli House with a renowned "leadership skills trainer".

Ms Gillard, who has struggled to translate her feisty parliamentary performances into convincing interviews and speeches, took the crash course ahead of two major prime ministerial addresses.

Image Media Services trainer Mike Macnamara met with Ms Gillard just days before she delivered her nationally televised address to the nation spruiking the carbon tax.

The lesson also came on the eve of the PM's speech at the NSW Labor conference in July.

Despite Mr Macnamara's expertise in "media interview technique and stand and deliver presentation skills", Ms Gillard's televised address received mixed reviews, with some labelling it wooden and overly scripted. And her speech to the party faithful was also oddly subdued.

[Worrals in the wilds]

Don't you normally do that before you take a job that comes with a lot of media exposure? :hmm:

[Frank Arouet]

We should be reminded what Gillard is proposing with her proposed legislation to give unfettered power to The Minister of her Executive and preventing High Court interferrence which to my way of thinking is "unconstitutional".

Australian Constitution/ Separation of The Powers;

Fact Sheet 35 Separation of Powers | Students | Parliamentary Education Office, Parliament of Australia (http://www.peo.gov.au/students/fss/fss35.html)

In Australia, the power to make and manage federal law is divided between three groups: the Parliament, the Executive and the Judiciary. This division is known as ‘separation of powers’ and is an important principle in Australia’s system of governance.
History has shown that checks on the use of power, such as this, are important for preventing misuse of power. Separation of powers avoids a monopoly of power by any one group. Each group works within its area of responsibility and also keeps a check on the actions of the other groups.
The following table shows the role of each arm of governance and their composition:
Power

Role

Composition

Parliament

The Parliament makes and amends the law
The Parliament (also referred to as the Legislature) is made up of the Queen (represented by the Governor-General), the Senate and the House of Representatives
Executive

The Executive puts the law into action
The Executive is made up of the Prime Minister and ministers
Judiciary

The Judiciary makes judgements about the law
The Judiciary is made up of the High Court and other federal courts
Responsible government

In Australia separation of powers works together with another principle known as responsible government, to guide the way law is made and managed. The implementation of separation of powers is not exact in Australia because the Parliament, the Executive and the Judiciary are not entirely separate. For example, members of the Executive are selected from the Parliament and High Court judges are officially appointed by the Governor-General, who is a part of the Parliament.
‘Responsible government’ means that a party or coalition must maintain the support of the majority of members of the House of Representatives in order to remain in government. This provides another check on the Executive, ensuring they remain accountable to the Parliament and do not abuse their power.

[Charlie Foxtrot India]

Agreed, particularly in aviation... GFPTs, 150 hour CPL courses, student pilot licences, ASICs, until recently GAAPS, a 10 hour Night VFR course, in-house CPL testing, no prerequisites other than a wodge of money to start an instructor rating etc etc etc....

Still, maybe it will take as long as CASA's
"regulatory reform process" for Juliar to get her communist manifesto through "parliament" and we might have all died of old age before she closes the country down for business.

[Frank Arouet]

Another thought on the Gillard proposed changes.

Would taking such action be an amendment to The Constitution? If so, it must go to a Referendum. No?

[LeadSled]

And be passed by a majority of voters and a majority of states !!
Tootle pip!!

[Frank Arouet]

Gillard appears to the average Australian what Chamberlane was to England.

An ignorant, naive idealist with no ability and an inflated ego that exacerbated a serious situation into all out war. So far we are only out by $billions. Lets hope no lives are ever lost because of her stupidity.

Those who ignore history are bound to repeat the same mistakes.

[bob johns]

Yes Frank I couldnt agree more ,but Chamberlain had a Winston Churchill to bail them out. Id like to think Abbot is our man but whether he has the statesmanship to do it remains to be seen.

[MTOW]

I wish I could agree with your Neville Chamberlain analogy, Frank. But I can't. there isn't a skerrick of naivete about Gillard - she knows exactly where she wishes to take this country, and that's to a place and a system of government that's anathema to me (and, I suspect, a majority of Australians who actually work for a living rather than sponge off 'the System' as a selected way of life).

[sisemen]

It would appear that the chorus of complaints against the ABC programme "At Home with Julia" is growing. It apparently shows the Prime Minister "no respect".

No **** Sherlock!

Once she starts showing the people of Australia some respect by not telling outright lies then maybe it will be reciprocated.

(Still surprised that the ABC is showing it though :D)

[Frank Arouet]

MTOW;

I was tempted to reply to your last with reminders about;

1) cash for clunkers".
2) The BER.
3) Pink Batts.
4) Green loans.
5) Timor solution.
6) Malaysia solution.
7) No Carbon Tax lies.

But you are right. Everything this person has done has turned to $hit. Dollar sign ($) intended because it has all cost us heaps.

This one individual, possibly helped by a strident need of Unions to have power at any cost, is a pathological "wrecker". Wants to wreck our way of life to support her, and The Greens, loopy left agenda

I note ABC TV news has been underscoring their bulletins the words "National interest" all day and those same words would need to be recovered from Hansard for every time that phrase was used in Question time today. Probably hundreds of times.

Never let it be said, The ABC is not the propaganda arm of the ALP.

It, the ABC, has never been so abused so by the opposition when they had office.

[Avgas172]

I thought union honchos could usually scrounge enough freebies without having to pay for sex. That said, if it had been the BLF or similar, escort services are probably on the approved expenditure list anyway ...



no, no .... seriously this thread is better than the Jerry Springer show :}