Project Sirius - Divisive or what?

[Whenurhappy]

Those still serving will have received (I hope) a briefing on Project Sirius which, inter alia, established a Main Stream and an Executive Stream for each branch (excluding medics, chaplains etc). In essence if you are selected for ACSC you are elevated to the Executive Stream and do shorter, career enhancing tours, whereas the Main Stream do 3-5 year tours, for 'stability and continuity'.

Although I will be leaving shortly (and thus beyond this malarky), I do have some concerns about Project Sirius. Will the Main Stream (which thins out at Wg Cdr) be essentially looked upon as the Mong Branch, whereas the Executive Branch will be the Chisellers? Will it also mean that Mong, sorry, I mean Main Stream officers become increasingly inelligible for CEA, for example? I suppose one could argue, would they need it? What about overseas NATO appointments? These are generally not regarded as career-enhancing so will Mongs be sent abroad for longer tours and thus our best and brightest do not get the international exposure? What about very average Sqn Ldrs and Wg Cdrs (and believe me, shock! horror! they do exist) stuck in jobs for too long and doing too much damage. There are also probity issues of some personnel in procument related posts (especially where money is involved) spending (geddit?) too long in post.

Will the knives be out amongst the Sqn Ldrs to ensure they are selected for ACSC and therefore possible promotion to Gp Capt? What will it do to espirit de corps amoungst our more junior officers?

I can't help but think that this is a Staff College solution to a problem that doesn't really exist; instead it will create a degree of career apartheid that isn't very helpful in a shrinking service.

Thoughts?

[Old-Duffer]

Until the late 1960's, the RAF operated 'General' and 'Supplementary' Lists. Those on the General List were graduates of the (then) 3 year cadet course at Cranwell, together with officers selected to be transferred from the Supplementary List because they were thought to 'have the right stuff'.

Supplementary List officers were only guaranteed a career to their 38/16 year point but could be 'assimilated' to serve beyond 38/16. Promotion to squadron leader was usually (but not always) accompanied by a transfer from one list to t'other.

For aircrew, a range of short service commissions existed IIRC; 5, 8 or 12 years. Serving airmen/women under age ?? were commissioned into the Supplementary List but over that age they became 'Branch officers' and their promotion was generally limited. Specialist aircrew came along during the '60s, I think, but before then, if you were aircrew and reached age 47, horrible things would happen to you, like your flying pay went down or you lost the lot and became an air trafficer!!

The separate lists were seen not to meet the requirements of a modern air force and they were merged in circa 1969/70. The 3 year Cranwell course was discontinued in about 1972, the graduate entry scheme was all the rage at this time and it was to graduates that the remaining bits of 'preferment' were given.

Sorry for the history lesson - but what goes around comes around. Would be interested to see the rationale for this latest change.

Old Duffer

[high spirits]

To play devils advocate, there could be those who are quite happy to settle in an area and school their kids without having to up sticks every 2 years. Wife could get a job and make up the difference. Could even be tax efficient if one remained just below 40% threshold.

Meanwhile, all the career knobbers could carry on working stupid hours, disappearing up their own jacksies doing secondary duties etc. What that option doesn't solve is the accountability of someone who comes in and screws everyone over for 2 years to make him/herself look good and leaves a goat for the next poor sucker to take over.

[Grumpy106]

I think another thing which needs to be taken into account for the Main Stream is whether they even have an option to opt in or out of the Executive Stream. If not, your Desk Officer is effectively telling you to give up all hopes of a career and just take the money! The plum jobs will be filled by the Exec stream, leaving the naff ones for everyone else. In addition, what if you are posted to a job which you did not want, in an area which you did not want to be posted to and are told to suck it up for 5 years! You would surely have to opt in to such a scheme to be prepared for such an eventuality, rather than be at the whim of a incompetent desk officer who sends you to, say Lossie, for 5 years because he either ballsed up or couldn't be bothered; 'Service need, get on with it'. May lead to a lot of PVRs (or is that the point......?)

[Old-Duffer]

I forgot to mention that a retired AVM had an office at Cranwell and spent an awful lot of time reading 1369s (of fond memory) to pick out the really high flyers from their confidential reports.

What happens when an officer in the Executive stream fails? Does he get pushed into the mainstream?

Will the Executive Stream contain a certain percentage of the Main Stream?

How will the system cope when the guys in the Executive Stream decide that it's not for them anymore and leave/PVR?

In my experience any formal segregation into streams will be divisive. Everybody knows that the desk officers and their bosses know who the stars are and manage their careers accordingly. We also know that there are some who are groomed for stardom and then something happens and they fall by the wayside.

I'm not sure the current system of open reporting is conducive to producing reports of sufficient objectivity and two other points: first, the manning plot never works out as planned and there are spikes and troughs which will thwart (as they always have done) any attempt to be too precise about the numbers game and secondly, are there sufficient jobs to allow the streaming system to work across the current Branch structure because it will certainly cause problems with 'best boy/girl for the job' when you get to top echelons.

Old Duffer

[Whenurhappy]

High Spirits - there will be those who are happy not to progress beyond Sqn Ldr for personal (and professional) reasons and spouse income/career will probably be a major driver. But I think that a lot of driftwood will be depositied in the shallow estuaries of main stream posts.

Grumpy - I share your concern that the duff jobs will be left to the duffers, and that the choice will be substantially reduced. I enjoyed my tours in Town and I would urge any officer from Sqn Ldr up to not to be put off by the naysayers about MB tours. But from 1 Sep, these will largely be the province of the Thrusters.

[Really annoyed]

duff jobs

You never know somebody might want become Duff Man one day. Somebody will have to do it when he retires.

[high spirits]

WNH and O-D,
There are (sadly) a lot of sh1t jobs for officers in the military. As for failure in the exec stream, what is that? Surely there can be only one, or 2 ( if we get a CDS) who haven't ultimately failed the career game. I'm 50:50 on this, it's a bit divisive I agree but we do not live in an ideal world. If we did, I would be 2i/c to Hugh Heffner with no career competition....

[Willard Whyte]

More important to have a laugh than walk around with a corn cob up one's ass.

Which brings us back on topic - I'd rather be a mong than a chiseling toss-pot.

[VinRouge]

Any word on non executive stream getting stuck in a bounty desk role and losing fp after year 2? Seems a no brainer. Doss round, fly loads, pvr to the airlines or even management. Sqn ldr pay... Pah. Not worth half the stress IMHO.

[high spirits]

There are of course the people that decide on a late career push. They would be disenfranchised under the new system as they would already be in the mong class.

[sidewayspeak]

So if you find yourself in the Retard stream, then you can just be a retard:


I need a paper on blah by COP. Err, no. I'll draw you a few pictures and thumbprint it, but that's all.

I need a volunteer to be PMC. Err, cluck off.

I need you to draft me a policy on blah. OK, here a load of tosh blah, best I can boverred to do.

We need someone to attend the AMP dinner in the mess. Nope, not me thanks.

Sorry, but if I'm going to be a retard, then I'll be a retard. :E

[Herc-u-lease]

I don't really understand what the difference is from today except for the idea of labelling someone as ES or MS. We all know if you want to get on, you have to strive for ACSC and if you don't your chances of promotion are more limted, especially if one is aiming for stars.

The only advantage i can see is it makes the desks' job easier in by identifying ES only posts vice MS only posts. It also will add greater granularity to promotion boards:

Chairman of the Promotion Board: "well, now we've done the ES OJARs I suppose we should look at the MS dossers"

The other advantage is it's easier for desky to explain to someone why they've been looked over for promotion again, despite being very experienced and performing well in post:

Desky: "It's becasue you're MS not ES"

Let's just see if the MS/ES is applied to allowances or any other items, or if it's confined to career management.

H

[Always a Sapper]

ROFL... you couldn’t make it up if you tried, no really you couldn’t.

Wait out for the first 'disenfranchised' mong/retard to save up enough milk tokens* to sign up Kermit chops (wide eyed frog… remember her? Wife off the now ex dear leader) and take it to the European Court of ‘uman rights.


* I would have said beer tokens, but it’s quite obvious only the righteous few under this scheme would be allowed to have anything to do with beer.

[sidewayspeak]

Let's just see if the MS/ES is applied to allowances or any other items, or if it's confined to career management.

I'd like to book a room in the mess please.

Certainly sir, Exec or Mainstream?

Err, main stream.

Oh. Sorry sir, no rooms available. (snigger) But we do have the mong's cowshed out the back.

Excellent. I love my job.

[Jumping_Jack]

Trouble is that the 'continuity' they are taking about for MS is 3-5 years. That ain't settled and does not provide for continuity for children in schools (which appears to be part of the point of this). So, all you will have is a pissed off cadre who know they won't get promoted and will get all the sh!te jobs....don't forget the CinC and CDS value us (we have been told over the past 2 days....)! :hmm:

[Lima Juliet]

Project SIRIUS and its potential on my job fullfilment, flying pay and CEA was a major factor on my sourcing another job and starting Early Termination. It was the final, and possibly deepest, of a thousand cuts that told me "enough is enough".

My Immediate Pension lump sum will pay for the nipper's education and I have a £45k per year job in the bag plus my pension, which means that I am back on what I was on prior to leaving. Less stress and doing something I ENJOY, it was no-brainer!

Shame really, as up to that point I thought I had a career still to play for. With a B+ "Yes" on my last OJAR and less than 3 years in rank, I thought I might be in with a shout for a flying-related command tour. But without ACSC and Project SIRIUS pushing me into Mong Stream, I realised it was game over. Also, CEA and a loss of flying pay a distinct possibility to boot.

As I said on the other PVR thread - it has been a death of a thousand cuts for me.

LJ

[high spirits]

If you get on mong-stream early enough, can you get a bye from ICSC. No point wasting 2 months on that hoop for the inept surely?

[Melchett01]

If you get on mong-stream early enough, can you get a bye from ICSC. No point wasting 2 months on that hoop for the inept surely?

If only! ICSC should in theory be done in the first 12 months of being a sqn ldr - yes I know that many try and put it off for as long as possible. However from a recent briefing from Manning, selection for Brown Nose stream is done through the same board / at the same time as the wg cdr / ACSC board so you will have to have done ICSC to even be in the running for a career.

If you are a sqn ldr selected to become a Brown Nose, you will go off to ACSC, possibly get promoted to wg cdr if they can find a job for you (apparently there are no guarantees that all of the next bunch going through ACSC will get wg cdr due to the cuts), and then have 9 years to get promoted to gp capt. You get a review at the 5 yr point and if you haven't picked up by the 9 yr point you get chopped and go back to being a Mong.

So in theory, you could give it your all, sacrifice family life etc for a shot at a career only to be knobbled by the numbers game and sent back to Mongdom, all for nought. You can imagine how that conversation will go with the family when you get home having found out you have given up almost a decade of family life for nothing. Alternatively you can VW from being a Brown Nose and go back to shovelling sh!te around an open plan office somewhere. Attractive options eh.

[Just This Once...]

Apparently I am a mong too due to time in rank. The bloke I sit with is the same age and joined at the same time as me but got promoted later; so with less time in rank he made the chiseler list. He laughed at me and I laughed at him.

So for the briefest of moments the new system brought a welcomed moment of mirth whilst Rome continued to burn around us.

[Clearedtoroll]

Oh well, not sure it'll make much difference. The chisellers will still be chisellers, those destined for CAS will still be CAS, and I'll still prop up the bar at happy hour and drink too much beater, and be quite happy...

[Wensleydale]

No-one has mentioned the name Sirius yet.....

So are you a star or the dog....

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I know I shouldn't laugh but from a baldrick point of view this is as funny as ****, the notion that the vast majority of the officer cadre are going to officially be labelled as mongs.......

Please, don't shout but if you look at it from outside the box its 'kin hilarious :p

[Odigron]

This MS/ES is not really a change, it's how your Appointers have been operating for ages. They have simply put it down in writing and now all have a better understanding of where they really sit - no bad thing and it'll help many make decisions with more realistic information. There will always be problems and issues with this system, as with any other, but at least you all know where you stand.

[fin1012]

I think this just formalises a system that has been in place for a long time anyway. During my recent trawl for an interesting next posting I found a range of jobs that I was both keen to do and eminently qualified for. Each one had either already been reserved for a new ACSC Grad (as opposed to an old one like me and regardless of the actual experience or quals required), or was 'too punchy' for my profile. Sirius simply acknowledges how things really work and is, I think, more honest. I was, though, very disappointed that it seemed the only criteria as to whether I was suitable for a job was if my posting date coincided with the new post's availability date. My previous experience and/or aspirations never came into the equation and were not mentioned. If that is how the Main Stream is going to be managed, then I don't have a good feeling that it is going to work.

I decided there was no point being bitter - we are in a tough profession with tough rules. I consciously decided not to jump through some of the hoops placed in my way and I have to accept the consequences. As a result I can still face myself in the mirror and look colleagues in the eye with some element of self pride. I have had a great time overall and when I leave I will look back on my time in the RAF with nothing but pleasure

I think a more interesting question is - is the system fit for purpose in terms of producing the kind of leaders we need in the modern world? For a few years now, the more I have seen of very senior officers, the less I have liked them. They seem to be overwhelmingly driven by self interest rather than that of the Service or even the country. It's quite a while since I came away from a close encounter thinking 'wow! I'd like to work for them'. All the good guys are either applying for redundancy, taking options, or PVRing. If things go on this way, there will only be 'chisellers' left. And they don't care about the rest of us, and the backstabbing as they fight each other for a chance at the top is going to be awesome.

Fly safe.

[blagger]

Watch out for more things coming out with '9 years' mentioned. I hear the 'new employment model' is going to be 9 years extension of service on promotion and in that time you are either Promoted or it's the highway.

[fin1012]

Blagger

I too have heard that rumour, but I just don't see how it will work. Who will do the essential but non-career enhancing jobs? That said, attitudes to careers have changed markedly since I joined and many now aren't actually interested in staying in long term - it's more like getting the life experience tick for a few years then moving on to something new.

[The B Word]

It does change a big thing in my opinion. I was promoted to Wg Cdr without going to ACSC - so were quite a few of my mates. That is, quite simply, not going to happen anymore.

The new SIRIUS system as I read it is:

ACSC + Wg Cdr = good chance of further

ACSC + Sqn Ldr = fair chance of further

No ACSC + Wg Cdr = no chance but a reasonable pension at 55 (and this will no longer happen)

No ACSC + Sqn Ldr = do not pass Go and do no collect £200 - you're f^cked

The B Word

[2Planks]

Sirius - "The Brightest Star in The Sky". I have one comment in a John McEnroe kind of accent:

"You cannot be sirius"

[Old-Duffer]

Given the recent news about a greater use of reserves, is there a hidden agenda in here somewhere?

At present, there are four (?) classes of reserves FC, HC, LC plus the Class CC, the latter being paid as civil servants but still holding a commission and being gazetted. Many Full Time Reserve Service posts are filled by guys and gals who still want to be in 'the business' but on terms which suit them.

It seems that many more posts might be designated for FTRS candidates and this would reduce the size of the Main Stream pool.

I do, however, think it dangerous to compartmentalise people. I know of many who are good leaders but hopeless staff officers and others who are the reverse. I also have a concern that, at present, there are insufficient ACSC places to service the need for Executive Stream appointments.

Given the overwhelming problems being faced by the armed forces at present, I would urge caution about introducing a new career grading system just now.

Old Duffer

[Odigron]

Old D,
Your concern is well stated; however, the system already employs an ES/MS structure in all but name. When the ES barrel runs dry, they will find a keen MS body to fill the slot - just as they do now.

[Whenurhappy]

I haven't had such a good laugh on a Service matter for a very long time! The responses have been superb.

I think we all accept that a 2 or 3 stream system has been operating for many years - indeed, in the past more formal that perhaps this Serious (oops! Sirius) plan. We all know officers who wouldn't cut the mustard in senior staff tours and vice versa. I'm sure most of us also remember bright young things who, as junior officers, were clearly destined for a bright future and rapidly outstripped their contemporaries. However, what I suspect officers will object to (and it is a human behaviour thing) is to be labelled as 'special'.

Desk Officer: 'Sqn Ldr Bloggs. I regret that you were unsuccessful in your last look at AST because of your age of 43 [can I say that?] so that means you are Main Stream now. Don't worry, we've got a really good job supervising the digitising of historic engineering records at Llangolligoch. You'll be happy there - at least 5 years - that means your [spouse/civil partner] can settle down and get a low-paid job as a care worker.'

'But wasn't I being boarded to be Assisitant Air Attache in DC?'
'Ahh yes, we thought about that, but I am afraid that's a thruster's job thus you are no longer suitable for it'.
'Any other news?'
'Well, funny you say that, we are looking for a chap with your experience to help the Afghan Air Force digitize their Soviet-era records. Kabul's not a bad place, you know, and this tour would look good on your profile.'
Why the need to label otherwise enthusiastic, loyal and probably still-ambitious officers? It's like being given news about a slow, linger but ultimately terminal disease (and I should know). 'You might make it to Wing Commander, but chances are pretty slim these days'.

[Odigron]

Whenurhappy,

You too are right, but this is what happens now:


Desk Officer: 'Sqn Ldr Bloggs. I regret that you were unsuccessful in your last look at AST because of your age of 43 [can I say that?][system now considers that you are relative slow runner - but you don't know it officially]. Don't worry, we've got a really good job supervising the digitising of historic engineering records at Llangolligoch. You'll be happy there - at least 2 years - that means your [spouse/civil partner] can't settle down and get a job'.

'But wasn't I being boarded to be Assisitant Air Attache in DC?'
'Ahh yes, we thought about that, but I am afraid that's a thruster's job thus you are no longer suitable for it'.
'Any other news?'
'Well, funny you say that, we are looking for a chap with your experience to help the Afghan Air Force digitize their Soviet-era records. Kabul's not a bad place, you know, and this tour would look good on your profile.'

With the new system, you will be better placed to make life decisions.

[Red Line Entry]

How many times on this website have we seen people complain that they are being moved too frequently? Either it screws up their personal circumstances or it screws up continuity for the post itself.

As has been pointed out, there always has been an unofficial 2-tier system. If you didn't know which tier you were in, then you were in the lower one! But the RAF continued with the pretence that everyone had a fair shot at being CAS and thus needed to be moved every 2 years.

This seems a genuine attempt to give people stability, while still providing the rapid movement that is deemed essential for those destined for the top (tho' I'm not convinced such rapid rotation makes for a good senior officer - maybe that's why so many of them just go round in circles).

Yes, some people are going to be hacked off with being labelled. But hang on, the first thing we do when we meet someone new is look at their shoulders and then look at their chest (unless she's female, in which case the order is probably reversed). We've then instantly pigeonholed them anyway!

Ultimately, the idea's not a bad attempt - a solid B+, Yes. But the real judgement on whether this is a Mong or a Chisseler of an idea will be based on the detail of its implementation.

[Willard Whyte]

As far as I can see the only people who need to dry their eyes are the mongs who are deluded enough to want to be a chiseler or think they already are one.

[Bismark]

ACSC + Wg Cdr = good chance of further

B Word

There is one you missed out:

ACSC (pass - C & below) + Wg Cdr = really f$%^ed

[dctyke]

The desk officer will not be interested at all, after all.............. he will be a mong:rolleyes:

[Jabba_TG12]

"Who will do the essential but non-career enhancing jobs?"



Historically, thats always been the dubious pleasure - nay, the raison d'etre, even - of the non-commissioned/oik side of the house... :E



The "9 yrs to get to the next rank or GTFO" has been a pleasure known to them for years. Granted they then get 13 years to get to Sgt or GTFO, then another 7 to Flt Sgt or GTFO and so on... but the principle remains the same.

Or rather they used to when I was in... :oh:


Then again, considering how many of 'em are being outsourced to BAe or Serco/made redundant in order to create McJobs to keep the local knuckle draggers/sorry, Labour voting client state/Civil servants off the dole, maybe these pleasures will then fall into their laps instead...

[fabs]

As far as I can see the only people who need to dry their eyes are the mongs who are deluded enough to want to be a chiseler or think they already are one.

WW hits the nail bang on the head and there are plenty of them (I know I am firmly ensconced in the MS). But those people still have hope, a cursory look at who's attended recent ACSCs would suggest that one or two slip through the net.

[Fire 'n' Forget]

istorically, thats always been the dubious pleasure - nay, the raison d'etre, even - of the non-commissioned/oik side of the house..

The difference is all the mong/chiseler's get promoted to SL and suddenly get vision's of grandeur and a career. In reality it's the first 'earned' promotion they have had and some think they are on the fast track to CDS! It is the equivalent to the 'oiks' Cpl a rank where you learn not to be a plank for the future :cool:

[Could be the last?]

As Sirius is implemented, I hope that those officers on the ES stream who are selected as a Sqn cdr don't forget that it is a privilege! Moreover, if the honour to command men on operations becomes just a stepping stone to the next rank, then I think we may have truly lost the plot!

[DITYIWAHP]

Fast jet mates stand by. Our future leaders will need to fly in fast jet cockpits so that they can prove their mettle; if you are on the B stream then you will have one shot and then probably be sidelined. Stand by for lots of "but now you can only fly as an instructor at EFT or on a UAS" followed by the offer of a less than ideal ground tour, unless you can argue that you need that fast jet cockpit to enhance your career. This probably applies to those who are on PA Spine as well, come to think of it.....!

[sidewayspeak]

I understand that the intention is for MS to spend 3-5 years on a tour providing stability for the also rans. That's great if it's in a location that suits. But what about if you're spammed with that amount of time away from home - living in a 12x6 box several hundred miles away from the family. 2 years, maybe... but up to 5? Absolute pile of poo.

[Tourist]

As someone who joined under just such a system, I have to say that I thought it was far better for everybody.
The RN had SL shags, and GL w@nkers. Everybody knew who was who, and everybody was happy.
The current system just makes lots of people who are really shags at heart try to become w@nkers just because it is a challenge, even though they know that they are happier with friends and a life.

[Halton Brat]

Jabba

I am on record on this forum as a defender of the concept of mutual respect, regardless of individual Service history; check out my posts if you will. The use of the term 'oik', in the manner in which you have used it, is not acceptable, and will be viewed as offensive by many amongst this community. I expect better than this from a holder of the Queen's Commission.

For your information, NCO's also once had a 'career development path'; we were not simply there to wipe the backsides of a never-ending stream of cherubic Cranwell graduates.

HB

[foldingwings]

Is this not just a minor extension of the change that took place about 6 years ago when the GD Branch became open to every officer when he/she reached wing commander and the old GD Branch became the Flying Branch.

Just seems like a variation on an already existing theme to my mind!

Foldie:ok:

[teeteringhead]

I've just come to this thread having been on the road for a few days, so will chuck in a couple of comments.

Agree with O-D that it's in many ways a return to the old GL/SL route which we used to have - perhaps we should bring back the B exam and get 38 yo Fg Offs again.

The "fast runner" system which was used when I was a desky was purely age-on-promotion based, with no sign of an eminence grise retired AVM. IIRC if you were a Sqn Ldr before 30, Wg Cdr before 35 and/or Gp Capt before 40 you were a "fast runner" - which means if nothing else you had the time to make 2-star.

So you could get on or off the list by being promoted or not at a given age. people could (and did) fall off it and climb back on again. In practice it meant that postings had to be approved one rank higher than normal. I used to post sqn ldrs, whose posting was normally approved by the DD (a gp capt). For a fast runner it had to get the one-star tick. I believe that mutatis mutandis this system (2 ranks up for normal, 3 ranks up for "FR") continued up the system, so a fast running wg cdr would have his posting approved by Air Sec and an FR gp capt by AMP.

And another thing O-D, on your mention of reservists various! There are some RAFR (CC) remaining - ;) - but the branch is no longer recruited to, so will in due course wither on the vine......

...and finally ...

dctyke The desk officer will not be interested at all, after all.............. he will be a mong ... checked the C-in-C's CV lately .....?

[Old-Duffer]

TTH,

Shock, Horror, Probe!!! No more RAFR (CC) :{ That could mean that the last one gets stuffed and mounted in a glass case at the RAF Museum ......

I wonder who that will be? :)

Old Duffer

[teeteringhead]

I wonder who that will be? ...as there is no longer a proper Air Force List it is difficult to judge the field in order to run a book ....... :(

[Jabba_TG12]

H-B:

Please accept my apology if I offended you, that was certainly not the intention. I can confirm that if nothing else that my entry was meant to be self-deprecating as I completed my service without ever holding the Queens Commission (I left as a Cpl because of dead mans shoes promotion in my trade), although this was indeed the career path I originally intended to follow. As I have said before on deep reflection, there is very little if anything at all that I would change about my time in the RAF, apart from making better use of the educational facilities earlier, but in all honesty, I got out what I put in. And for that, I have absolutely no complaint whatsoever because it has stood me in good stead compared to my non ex-military peers.

Such is the dark humour of the Other Ranks sometimes (particularly of my Cold War generation), but again, I assure you, no slur or offence was intended.

I can assure you my tongue was so far into my cynical cheek that it has indeed finally given me a mouth ulcer. Maybe there is such a thing as Karma after all. ;)

And as I've said on another post, what with 7000 civilianised posts going, maybe a lot of these things are starting to come back full circle. The next few years to 2020 are going to be.... interesting.

[Halton Brat]

Jabba

This is clearly an oik own-goal.

I could spit.

Take a week's bedpacks.

HB

[Jabba_TG12]

Certainly H-B.





Where would you like me to take them to? :}

[Father Jack Hackett]

Essentially, getting on the promotion ladder for an RAF pilot (I guess ES from here onward) is like investing in a pyramid scheme. Statistically you may realise a profit over the long run, but unless you're very smart/lucky, the odds suggest you are most likely to take a financial bath compared to what you might have earned in that second career you could have had with the airlines.

I'd be interested to see the comparative remuneration (including pension) between leaving at 38 and going to a major airline versus staying in and seeing how far up the greasy pole you could climb. At a rough guess you must need to get to Gp Capt as a minimum to realise the same sort of money?

Anyone done this calculation?

[2Planks]

FJH - I think that's about right - unless the Gp Capt has 3 kids on CEA and then you would need to be a Fleet Manager to earn the equivalent.

[295A]

Wow, such vitriol. Man up guys. In any professional environment you will have those who are career driven, ambitious and talented and who seek promotion/elevation. They are supported by the majority of others who work within the organisation who are not looking for similar roles. If you are good and ambitious go for it; if you are neither find a niche in which you are happy. Every large commercial organisation I know operates a scheme for talent identification (even bad schools separate the able from the less able) and most use lateral entry and specialist recruitment. If you want to career press - get yourself to Swindon polytechnic for the 11+ for ES otherwise work hard and enjoy the PS for as long as you can stand. The New Employment Model work may, if not treated the same way as the Bett Report (remember that?), offer a dramatic change to terms and conditions of service along with new career structures and management processes. Just remember one thing folks - little changes for the better!

[Whenurhappy]

A Gp Capt with three kids on CEA, overseas posting, mortgage, car loan etc...likely to be near backrupt!

Back to the topic - do posters beleive that this new system overs any clear advantages to anyone?

[Wander00]

Especially if a Staion Commander and expected to"entertain" on naf-all entertainment allowance. I have seen a couple of COs nearly go own tha pan that way.

[cornish-stormrider]

Well all you Crandistan escapees are to be known as chisellers or mongs -
Us oiks have similar names or worse for you....

Sadly I met far too many chisellers and not enough mongs.
If you want to be a mong - be a mong and have fun - being a chiseller is just not worth the extra garbage...

[Wander00]

"Chiseller" and "mong" are new to me: it's an "age" thing I expect. Anyone care to enlighten me (and, no doubt, others)

[FODPlod]

I believe they are members of a popular music band, M'lud.

[Willard Whyte]

Is that the same as a 'popular beat combo', m'lud?

[Red Line Entry]

Now that Sirius is meant to be in full swing (I think), has anyone started to see DOs offering 3+ year tours for PS?

[SOSL]

Re your last post -Do you mean like spec aircrew?

Rgds SOS

[Twon]

SOSL,

Spec Aircrew clearly only works for, erm, aircrew! What about all the other branches where MS officers could now find themselves on level 9 for a considerable number of years. Hold that thought, maybe NEM will see MS officers chopped at the end of the level 9 year as a new method of outflow!?

[Courtney Mil]

Part of a big drive that's been going on for many years. It's just that now is not the time for this obviously devisive (as the OP said) 'new' iniciative. It keeps going down hill.

[Grimweasel]

The system will not work in my eyes. Too divisive and there are not enough positions available for the Exec stream to make it all viable. I can see a situation where a so called 'mong' who's happy say in his OC BSW job at RAF Snoring, where manning said he could be for 5 years, being moved on by an Exec stream needing a promotion tick.

It will create a 2 tier air force of haves and have nots. The whole manning system is opaque and the rules seem to change as personalities change.

The pyramid only allows for a few jobs at the top and desk officers should have should have a better system for identifying those people. Reporting officers need to be more realistic and honest when writing reports instead of blowing smoke up people's ar$es. There is too much weak leadership where 'mates' fail to report on their subordinates correctly as they don't want to upset the apple cart or face any conflict - so they usually capitulate.

There are too many people vying for the same top jobs when that prospect is untenable to most. If manning were able to give people realistic career ceilings and guidance - ie, "you are 34, you have not done an op tour, you don't have a Masters, you have not done any professional development and your reports are average - you only have the max reach for Wg Cdr in your time left' then I'm sure that the workplace would develop a much better and more amenable culture. This would, in turn, produce a Royal Air Force that was able to meet outputs without breaking the moral contracts that it has with its people. Fewer people would be gunning for promotion courses and 'one-upmanship' over their peers, and maybe then they might concentrate on their day jobs and managing their personnel.

Still, I'm glad to be leaving it all behind...

[Easy Street]

maybe NEM will see MS officers chopped at the end of the level 9 year as a new method of outflow!?

I've definitely seen a Powerpoint slide somewhere that shows promotion to Sqn Ldr giving service to 38, Wg Cdr to 44, and Gp Capt to 55. Up or out... can't remember what the 'codename' for it is, but it's on the table somewhere!

[SOSL]

Dunno. I was Eng (AS).

Anyway, I said "like" spec aircrew. "Like" used as an adverb approximately means "approximately".

Rgds SOS

[teeteringhead]

I've definitely seen a Powerpoint slide somewhere that shows promotion to Sqn Ldr giving service to 38, Wg Cdr to 44, and Gp Capt to 55. Haven't the RN been doing this for years - or something similar??

One knows of an RN Cdr who was "binned" under this rule a few years ago - and promptly transferred as a Spec Aircrew Sqn Ldr!! ;)

[Courtney Mil]

Interesting for the Exec Stream officer that has his OJAR written by a Mainstream chap who feels bitter about being passed over. Or will the elite only be written up by their fellow elites?

[Big Unit Specialist]

SOSL - Yes I do indeed mean like Spec Aircrew. As alluded to by other posters perhaps this will be used as another manning lever; certainly the prospect of stagnant pay for rather a long time does not fill me with joy. Another bad joke in the long running comedy that is RAF Career Management.

I wonder how long this new system will survive contact with the real world and whether the Mainstream branch will be expected to cope with the churn of Elites/Executives thundering past on their path to glory? My experience in the past with such 'chosen ones' points to the fulfillment of my supposition.....

[The Nip]

With an increasing number promoted to SO2 in the late 20s, early 30s, how are these pers going to be usefully employed until they are 55?
Not many will progress, through no fault of their own in some cases. So for over 20 years they will move along from one desk to another producing ......?

[Pontius Navigator]

Round and round went the ruddy great wheel

In and out . . .

. . . the prospect of stagnant pay for rather a long time does not fill me with joy

Back before about 1971 there were two pay scales for officers. Your General List man as a flt lt had just 6 increments before he pay stagnated whereas the Supplementary List man had 16 or more every year to age 38 (and out).

With the advent of the Single List the AFPRB recommended doing away with the 16 increments and stagnating flt lt pay after just 6 as they expected flt lt to be picked up to sqn ldr after 5 increments. This was great fror us with TOS to 38/16 as at a stroke we all moved to top flt lt increments if we had done more than 6 years.

I believe similarly sqn ldr and wg cdr increments were also reigned in and flying pay for wg cdr was cut after the 2nd tour point and the same for gp capt.

What you appear to be saying is that the full career increments for Mong should be made, or are you suspecting it will just freeze?

[Easy Street]

With an increasing number promoted to SO2 in the late 20s, early 30s, how are these pers going to be usefully employed until they are 55?

SO2 is not a rank, it is a staff position!

I don't hold that an increasing number of youthful promotions is a problem; they allow Manning to identify career high-flyers early, and give a chance to leave at their mid-career option for those who fail to shine at Sqn Ldr level. That 'chance' might become enforced, as automatic service to 55 for Sqn Ldrs is pretty much guaranteed to disappear in the next few years, IMHO. Some will be 'assimilated' at age 40 but I would expect others to get the boot at that point.

[Melchett01]

That 'chance' might become enforced, as automatic service to 55 for Sqn Ldrs is pretty much guaranteed to disappear in the next few years, IMHO. Some will be 'assimilated' at age 40 but I would expect others to get the boot at that point.

Not entirely sure how that one will work if people are already serving on T&Cs that guarantee them employment to 55 without some sort of payoff. Unless you make future promotees sign up to the principle of up or out by 40 when they accept promotion to sqn ldr, I think that any half decent employment lawyer should be able to challenge such a change to existing T&C.

That said, there will probably be quite a number where the idea of stagnating in rank / pay for 15-20 year isn't appealing and they go of their own volition, so 'bed blocking' might not be an issue. The issue, however, will be how to retain those individuals with critical skill sets and Qs, QWISR for example given the rapidly rising importance of ISR, or those in the more specialist branches which even on a good year don't have rapid promotion. In those cases, an up or out policy might well prove detrimental to the overall capabilities of the service.

[Pontius Navigator]

Surely the condition is in the next few years. Offer of promotion to sqn ldr may not include automatic assimilation to age 55.

It may be made with no suggestion of any increase in time to serve or maybe with an offer of assimilation to some time in the 40s.

As Melchett says, this may serve as a driver to get people to jump.

[SOSL]

Easy Street makes a good point about SO2 not being a rank. I served as an SO2 in uniform and then served as an SO2, as a contractor, in pinstripes.

The difference was, when I was in pinstripes, I was paid shed-loads more for an easier job.

I don't complain because the extra dosh helped me to enjoy my retirement (IIRC!!).

However, it seems a shame that the MOD lays off good, talented men and women, under whatever the latest scheme happens to be and then employs old snakeoil salesmen, like me, at twice the pay.

I agree we're not twice the cost; but even so ....

Rgds SOS

[Al R]

RAF - SDSR - Personnel (http://www.raf.mod.uk/news/sdsrpersonnel.cfm)

Changes to career plans include a new package for junior ranks being introduced under Project APOLLO, a move away from the list-based appointment system for WOs and senior NCOs under Project ZEUS and the creation of an executive stream for those officers with the most potential under Project SIRIUS.

Part of NEM I suppose - what will Apollo and Zeus look like?

[Melchett01]

Whilst SIRIUS is a nod towards career management, from the briefings I sat in on, I'm just not sure how well received it will actually be once implemented. We were briefed that individuals would go on to the Exec Stream at some point during their time as senior sqn ldrs. Once on there, subject to periodic review of continued potential, individuals would be bounced around Defence every 2 years to enable them to get the requisite skill sets and career profile to make it to the highest ranks. Those on the Main Stream would be offered longer postings to give a degree of personal stability and professional continuity, but there may be some 'Main Stream' posts which by their very nature, would attract the high fliers e.g. procurement on longer tours.

However, this still raises a number of issues which I'm not convinced have been, or will be resolved.

An individual on the Exec Stream can be 'demoted' back to the Main Stream after I think it was something like 9 or 10 years (or earlier at their request) if they hadn't picked up. Fair enough, give someone else a chance. However, that means the deck is massively loaded in the Service's favour. How many people would willingly - and enthusiastically - sign up to a scheme whose T&C were basically:

"right Blogs, this is your chance for glory. We're going to thrash you for the next 10 years. Your wife will barely see you, and when she does she will complain about your 3rd move to the other side of country in 6 years and the kids becoming increasingly maladjusted. However, at the end of that 10 years, or sooner if we deem it necessary, we'll just demote you back to MS and you can get on with life. You might get promoted, but then again as the Service is shrinking, you probably won't. Sign here, here and here, oh and here's a good number for a divorce lawyer".

or:

"right Blogs, well done. You've taken everything we can throw at you for 10 years and as a reward, we've earmarked you for the highest reaches of the Air Force. You have bags of potential and really get the job done. There's just one little thing however, we notice from your file that you aren't a pilot and all the jobs we were considering for you need a pair of wings, or at a pinch, an Chartered Engineering status. Terribly sorry old boy, but that's just the way it goes. We might be able to get you to Gp Capt, but afraid that will be it. Thanks for trying though, you've really helped us through a sticky patch in getting Project X up and running. So sorry to hear your wife ran off with the tennis coach by the way "

Either of those sound vaguely attractive to any sane individual who would like a semblance of a normal family life outside of the Service? It's effectively Russian roulette with careers. Some - a very few will win - but for a lot it will be messy and lead to bitterness when it goes wrong. Somehow however, I really can see both those scenarios playing out at some point in the not too distant future.