What a laugh... Flight Experience

[knox]

Couldn't resist.

Flight Experience simulator instructor (ad on afap):

Minimum Requirements:

Will hold (or have held) a Private Pilots License and has customer service / sales experience.
Desirable Qualifications and Attributes:

CPL, ME CIR, ATPL
Multi-crew experience
Flight Simulator experience
The skill and experience to deliver customer service excellence
A high motivation to meet and exceed sales targets and KPIs
A professional approach and positive attitude to your work
A team player and self motivated
Superior time management and ability to priorities multiple tasks
Sound problem solving and analytical skills
A genuine desire to work in a fast paced ever changing customer service / sales environmentMinimum Requirements:

Will hold (or have held) a Private Pilots License and has customer service / sales experience.
Desirable Qualifications and Attributes:

CPL, ME CIR, ATPL
Multi-crew experience
Flight Simulator experience
The skill and experience to deliver customer service excellence
A high motivation to meet and exceed sales targets and KPIs
A professional approach and positive attitude to your work
A team player and self motivated
Superior time management and ability to priorities multiple tasks
Sound problem solving and analytical skills
A genuine desire to work in a fast paced ever changing customer service / sales environment


May as well add 3000 hrs command on a 737-800 as desirable too:}


Knox.

[Anthill]

I think that you can tell simply by the add. that it wont be a nice place to work. Are you to be employed as an instructor or in sales?

[VH-XXX]

Why do you find this amusing?

There would be plenty of people out there who would be interested and would have many of not all of those qualifications.

eg. Someone whom has lost their medical might consider it.

[Ultralights]

and the fact that add comes up quite often, the staff they get build hours and simply move on to the majors :}

[Anthill]

Let's break this down:

CPL, ME CIR, ATPL

Multi-crew experience
Flight Simulator experience---Ok, obviously want someone with experience.

The skill and experience to deliver customer service excellence---They want some one who can relate well to customers and have them come back. Maybe even tell their friends.

A high motivation to meet and exceed sales targets and KPIs---Because if you don't you wont get paid? Right: here's the rub. Exactly how are they going to assess your salary?

A professional approach and positive attitude to your work---This should go without saying in this industry. Maybe the positive attitude refers to what you will need when you fail to meet the expected KPIs.

A team player and self motivated---Get out there and bring back some students. Network. Don't be upset when the students that you find end up flying with other team members. Like the owner.

Superior time management and ability to priorities multiple tasks
Sound problem solving and analytical skills---The business is chaotic and disorganised? That's how I read this. Be prepared to be f#$%^ed around by the manager/owner and if you don't meet unrealistic expectations, then it's your fault.

A genuine desire to work in a fast paced ever changing customer service / sales environment---Understaffed with high customer turnover. What they are selling and how they sell it changes on a weekly, if not daily, basis.

Nah...:yuk:

[Fubaar]

Is a fluency in the Arabic language an asset?

Think about it...

[PLovett]

For some here, it would pay to have a look at the company's website and see exactly what they offer. It may cause a change of opinion, and, no, I am not associated in any way with the company. :=

Having worked in something very similar for the last 12 months, now ceased, I can add that you can learn an awful lot about operating a B737-NG and considerable insight into multi-crew dynamics. Besides it can also be a lot of fun when you try operating into somewhere never intended for a Boeing. :E

I was fortunate enough to have unfettered access to the simulator out of hours where I could extend the type of flights into quasi-airline flights utilising all the features of the sim including the FMC which wasn't used for the majority of the customer flights. :ok:

[Delta_Foxtrot]

I did a couple of hours in a FE sim in NZ two years ago. The 'instructor' had 4000+ (self-claimed) hours in it and was adamant that LOC was LOCk, not LOCaliser. He honestly thought it 'locked' you onto the desired radial.:ugh:

[b_sta]

Just think, you get to wear a pilot's costume too :E

[remoak]

This would be the "sims" where pretty much nothing on the overhead works, it's all based on MS Flight Sim models, and the flight model is a work of fiction?

Don't waste your time!

[By George]

I agree, took a young bloke along in Singapore to the one there, not much worked and not realistic enough for me. The visual wasn't too bad but slid about in an odd way and more of a tourist ride than a sim.

[Gmac115]

Have used it a few times in Sydney and tried the one in Melbourne too.. Not bad for a quick practice before an airline interview or bit of fun but certainly not realistic..
I don't think it would be a bad job while your doing your training. ( Better then working at Woolies ). But CPL , ATPL? give me a break!

Its good for what it is.. I met a few different instructors at the stores in Syd and Melbourne and they seemed nice enough. All very open and honest about there experience ( or lack there of etc ). Except one young guy I flew with up in Sydney about a year and half a go. He was a complete tosser. He made sure he wore his 4 bars into the sim and wanted to tell me how to fly a 737 like Boeing does.. :yuk: Was good for a laugh afterwards though...

[ReverseFlight]

Many pilots work at Flight Experience as a "second best" alternative to actually flying for an airline. The irony is that they treat it like a real airline job, with swarms of wannabes sending in their resumes so that they can go to work wearing a pilot's uniform. They forget those are not flight hours which you can write in your logbook. Some even treat it as a step for launching into the right seat of jet, although in reality it may never happen. And the boss exploits this vulnerability and pay them peanuts. As for non-typed instructors, it's the blind leading the blind.

Not shooting down Flight Experience as an organisation - it's the pilots' attitude which is the main problem.

[NZFlyingKiwi]

I know a couple of people who worked for these sorts of operations - don't think it's so bad provided you recognise that it's basically MS flight sim with a fancy cockpit and don't expect to get a whole lot in the way of practical real life flying experience from it.

[PLovett]

I should add that the sim I worked in was not MS Flight Sim nor was it one of the sims operated by the company advertising for staff.

The program controlling the "aircraft" functions was a commercial program that had been written for a training sim and it accurately reflected the flight characteristics of a B738, especially the inertia which caught out a lot of GA pilots who thought they knew it all. About 90% of the functions were connected and operational and it was possible to do a "flight" from start-up to shut-down. From the instructors station it was possible to induce any number of system and engine failures.

The sim was also connected into the internet which made it very interesting when taking part in multi-player exercises as the vision system would show the other players and display the appropriate returns on the TCAS display. It was good fun, even if not real.

[Homesick-Angel]

I worked at flight experience a while ago.

Here's what I can tell you..

There are several FE Sims around the country.

The one I worked was operated poorly on a management level and the front of house system in the joint is shambolics. The "boss" was not interested in helping or acknowledging the staff's efforts, was constantly expecting unrealistic outcomes with exceptionally poor people skills and was only interested in sales, something that we actually had very little control over. Not a good mix.

The pay is worse than Sh1t.

I got my job there with minimal flight training(maybe before PPL), and was expected to undergo quite an amount of unpaid "training" to get up to speed with the Sim which is more operational than some of you may think. some details are here (http://australianaviation.com.au/2010/09/flight-experience-gains-casa-approval/)

On a "flying" level, It was actually a good learning environment, as there were pilots working there of many levels there from GFPT'ers to retired airline pilots and everything between.
The bulk would have been people finishing their CPL's or just finished.Many of us who were working at the time are now out in the workforce as pilots. You are required to fly accurately the approach and departure procedures from the jepp charts on the line flights. Not a bad skill to learn on someone else's coin. You need to be able to operate the FMC and manage some fairly complex navigation procedures (and often computer issues) all while giving the customer a good time.

The job was a pain in the ar3e in many ways(mainly because of lack of management and the disrespect of the boss), but one of the best things about the job was sharing the experience with people, and most of them absolutely loved it. This and setting up ridiculous situations for each other in the rare down time would be the highlights.Dealing with the bosses and straaaaange dudes who just came into the shop to talk and gawk would be the lowlights.

As in any organisation, there were a mix of personalities working there, but overall while I was there the other guys were a pretty nice bunch.

It is in short an elaborate show, but good fun for people who have not flown before(even some that have)

Do not work there unless you like being treated like sh1t.

[puff]

Crap pay and being treated like shi* - sounds like a realistic aviation experience !

[remoak]

Some of the FE sims were more complete than others, but NONE of them accurately replicate a 737, certainly not where the flight model is concerned. No wonder Mr Pero, in the link above, chooses his words so carefully. Size and layout are about the only similarities to the real thing. That, and the seats. I spent a lot of time instructing in the Wellington one (which seems to have disappeared), and just about the only thing that worked on the overhead was the light switch. The PFDs are generic, as are the FMCs. The thrust levers kept bending, a lot of the hardware was shoddy and the visuals... well... pretty grim.

It's not a bad entertainment tool for those who don't know any better, but not so good for actual pilots (once the "wow it's a jet" thing wears off, anyway).

I think the proof of the pudding is how many have closed shop...

[Tee Emm]

Candidates applying for Jetstar, Tiger Airways and Virgin Blue sometimes elect to undergo a practice 737NG flight experience session before going for the actual simulator test. Even though Jetstar and Tiger Airways candidates are destined to fly the A320 if successful, the initial assessment test as part of the interview process is done in a real 737-300 simulator at Ansett in Melbourne. Similarly, for Virgin Blue the assessment test is done in Virgin Blue's NG simulator at Brisbane or possibly their NG simulator at Ansett.

Either way the franchise "flight experience" Microsoft 737NG are certainly useful as far as cockpit familiarisation is concerned (and significantly less cost to the candidate) but just be aware the fidelity in some areas lacks that of real simulators. In particular, the steep turn manouvre, tested as part of the airline assessment in the real simulators, has a significantly different nose attitude than in the flight experience Microsoft trainer. None of the airlines concerned use the automatic pilot, flight directors or automatic throttle during the actual test in the real simulator.

[PLovett]

Tee Emm, Virgin actually gives the applicant the flight profile (with weather details and briefing notes) that they use in the sim. The sim company that I worked for actually programmed the flight into their sim.

We had a couple of bookings from people preparing for the interview and it was interesting to note their improvement over the course of a few hours. The steep turn manoeuvre was probably the most difficult especially as the whole flight (until the ILS) was done at flaps 5 and around 170 kts.

[prospector]

Obviously not an Ad from a New Zealand company, otherwise one of the essential requirements would be a "knowledge of the requirements of the Tiriti of Waitangi."

[Tiger 77]

I've been told by a mate that you get paid more at Flight Experience than you do as a Jetstar A320 F/O.

[Homesick-Angel]

I've been told by a mate that you get paid more at Flight Experience than you do as a Jetstar A320 F/O.

It would have to be really crap then..

Something I forgot to mention is that each FE is operated privately, so it is possible that things aren't as bad elsewhere as they were where I worked.:ugh:

[Dangnammit]

I went to the one in Melbourne with super cheap tickets. Nice bloke there with a ppl or spl (forgot which) to which I told him I held cpl. I controlled everything whereas my cousin (with zero hours or knowledge) was helped throughout.
Microsoft Flight Sim running the show with 737 flightdeck.
It's great to get under the Harbour Bridge followed with a beat up and then steep turns at 250' to follow some river to the airport.
Just a bit of fun. For real ground I.F time I jump in the trainer at the flying school.

I can see how flight deck familiarisation could be an asset to those moving up.

[Keg]

Just out of interest, what do they pay? Do they use casuals of full timers? How flexible are they with shifts, etc?

No, I'm not looking for a new job, just interested. Although if they're paying a decent amount per hour some extra pocket money a day or so a week may be handy. :ok:

[ZKSUJ]

I worked at the Wellington one for a stint a while ago when I was doing my CPL/MEIR. Me being employed then shows that you don't need a whole lot of experience/knowlege to do the job (I'm not saying I did it well). It was cool as I was doing my ATPL's at the time and things kinda made a wee bit more sense. It's like doing a trail flight in instructing. Make the customer think that they can do it all...

Regarding the guy from the WLG aeroclub with thousands of hours FE time, who talks about V-LOCK. He did end up going solo in a real plane during my time there... Though I hear he's got a kid now and had to get another job that pays better

[Captain Nomad]

Getting a backup plan ready for August 24 Keg? :E

[MTBUR]

The four-bar bloke in Sydney is still ploughing the virtual skies

[aussie027]

Hey Keg,

I inquired re a job here in Perth at FE when they advertised early this yr, late last yr.
Basically it was casual with only a handful of hours a week at about $20-25/hr I think it was. Had to be avail to work any day, 7 days a week from anytime between 10 to 10 daily. The length of the hours per day varied, maybe 2-4hrs. but it may only be 2-4 days /week depending on staffing levels ,bookings etc.
Other main problem was they only wanted people who could give a 6-12mo commitment I think it was due to all the training on the sim required. I dont think that was paid.

The long commitment for just a handful of possible work hours /week didnt make sense to me but it might be suited to some.

[Homesick-Angel]

The hours were inconsistent, but probably averaged to about 15 a week over the journey.
The pay was in the low 20s per hour.
The training was not paid.

Overall Im glad I did the job and somehow I did learn a bit, but when my time was up it was up.There was something about the place that could do your head in if you did too many hours. If the boss was easier to deal with it would have made it more enjoyable. How many TIFs can you do in simulator before you lose it? No air, no light, and the same act over and over again.. At least we got the four bars early. :}

[reverserunlocked]

Apologies for the holy thread resurrection batman, but I'm looking at setting up one of these 'Flight Experience' style sims here in the UK as unless you want to pay BA £500 for an hour in one of 777 sims then you're stuffed if you want to have a go on one of these. I'm pretty sure with the birthday, father's day and kid's market you'd have a reasonable business.

To the guys that instructed at these places, could you tell me - were they fully booked? Have many of them gone under? Would there be an initial burst of business only for it to go a bit quiet? I'm interested in getting the inside track on the logistics of a business like this.

Thanks in advance chaps,

RU

[Homesick-Angel]

Yes they were fully booked.
The set up cost is huuuuuge!
The advertising has be constant and unrelenting.
They crapped on that they weren't making much money. Maybe they were maybe they weren't. They were losing f¥ck all money on us.
The front of house system needs to be as slick as the sim, and it would be beneficial if you had an actual recognized sim as you could then cover pilot and non pilot clients.
For the benefit of all of us be a nice fella and pay well, and treat even the youngens with respect and you will go well. Happy staff your gonna laugh.. All the way to the bank. Remember it is basically a customer service role, if the staff are plotting ways to kill you while their "instructing" it can make for an interesting dynamic..

[reverserunlocked]

Cheers for the info. I will heed your advice mate!

[Mark1234]

reverserunlocked: you may want to google 'ipilot', who are definitely in the UK. Not that it necessarily rains on your parade, but knowing there is competition might be worthwhile :ok:

[reverserunlocked]

Hey Mark

Yes I know about ipilot, but they're only darn sarf thus far and to be honest their sim looks comically poor and the ambience of shoppers walking past (it's completely open to the shopping mall) hardly adds to the realism.

I'd want to be doing something more like the motion 737 sim at Lelystad in Holland.


Boeing 737-800 full flightsim Lelystad airport - YouTube

[Mark1234]

The flight experience stuff is pretty much in line with ipilot, although in melbourne at least, behind a door. Just so happens I've poked my head into both - and thought no way I'm paying *that* to play flightsim with some fancy knobs.. A 'proper' full motion sim would be much more interesting.

[reverserunlocked]

I quite agree. I was emphatically told by sim builders over and over again that motion was unnecessary - until I flew a level D sim with it. From the moment we started taxying I knew that motion was the thing missing from my life! :ok:

[SOPS]

It is interesting to read this page in 2017. I was offered a job at FE, as a very experienced airline captain and they were still offering $25 an hour. Why anyone would do it for that money is beyond me..and they still need you to spend endless free hours with them for "training"..Ummmm no...

[Brakerider]

I believe the young whippersnappers have to pay for their "endorsement" and free line training also! :ugh:

[ddoth]

FE wasn't a bad place to work provided you took it for what it was - a sim.

As the years have gone by, I believe they are all up to 4.5 standard (I haven't worked with them for a few years). The steep turns, as highlighted above, were always a little wacky, as were turns in general. These facts was always highlighted to pilots that came through to practice airline profiles, before their sim assessments. We always did our best to help with as many differences that were reported back to us. Different airlines use different sims, so it was always nice to get feedback.

I know during my time there that I did learn a lot and the few people I worked with are now all flying big jets around. By large they say the time they had in the sim, outside of working hours, helped a lot.

Not to say that the requirements are a little excessive all things considered but if you're flying casually in a major city, it is a good supplement to the income when every little bit helps (plus, it is aviation related in some way).