instructing?

[Danger Banglington]

Is instructing the best way to find work and build up hours for low time pilots fresh out of flight school?

Ive seen people write "only become an instructor if you want to instruct".
which is fair enough, BUT
after doing the integrated course, having a basic CPL with NVFR and just over 180hours, the job prospects seem fairly limited, if any.

I noticed at the school i was at that there was a fairly constant turn over of instructors as they left for new jobs. leading me to believe that instructing is, for most, an hours building exercise that leads to quicker gigs in the future.

Im not particularly keen on instructing. but if it gets me the hours and fine tunes the knowledge, it seems like the better step to take.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Anyone, Bueller? OK, I'll bite.
Im not particularly keen on instructing. but if it gets me the hours and fine tunes the knowledge, it seems like the better step to take.
The fact you are not "particularly keen on instructing" will quickly become obvious to those you are trying to "instruct".
The last thing this industry needs is another "instructor" who's only motivation is building hours to go somewhere else.

[training wheels]

Where's the 'LIKE' button for Captain Sand Dune's post?

[Horatio Leafblower]

"2 people like this"

[Danger Banglington]

If other flight schools are like the one i went to. And you took all the hour building flight instructors out of schools. Would you have many schools left?

I'd still give it my fullest. and i know what not to do, thanks to a few of my instructors. (Theory lessons were spent reading from the text book) :zzz:

What other options are there for low time pilots?
flying for free to get the hours up? (known a few people to do that)

Jumping on the pilot trail to the top end and WA with all the other wanabe pilots that dont want to be instructors, filling up each town waiting to get a start?

Instructing seems like a better option

[beat ups are fun]

make that 3 likes for Captain Sand Dune.

I've always wondered why there are such high requirements for Chief pilots, C&T pilots and ATO's who do allot of check/testing flights, however when people what to learn to fly and they are young and most impressionable they can get in an aircraft and be stuck with a 200 hour Grade 3 instructor who is only there on an hour building mission. Surely there should be a higher requirements for instructors.

Don't go down the instructing road unless you REALLY want to do it. Your cash may be better off put towards a ME-CIR or other rating.

[wishiwasupthere]

flying for free to get the hours up?

I'll get the popcorn!

[mcgrath50]

It depends what you mean by 'not too keen on instructing'. Are you looking forward to spending 100s of hours in the circuit? No one does. Are you enthusiastic about imparting knowledge and experience and want to see your students improve? Then do it.

Instructing is no easier to crack than going up north but it can mean you stay in the city or at least regional centres closer to home. Most instructors I've seen will still head north eventually though.

Don't work for free.

[Danger Banglington]

haha wishiwasupthere, thought i'd stir it up a bit more with the flying for free comment.

[muffman]

Don't instruct unless you want to. It is unfair to your students, unfair to the reputation of instructors, and unfair to yourself because you'll hate it.

Why are you worrying about GA anyway? Just go straight to Jetstar...the new "up north"

[Oktas8]

I got into instructing because there were no real jobs around.

I have thoroughly enjoyed it, and have been an A-category instructor (similar to Grade 1) for seven going on eight years.

But that said, people who knew me well (parents), said that I would make a good teacher before I ever went into it.

So I think motivation is less important than many here have said, as a professional will do the job carefully regardless of preference.

Character and natural inclination are very important.

Good luck either way.
O8

[mrclumsy]

You rather fly for free n piss a few people of in Pprune than be a flight instructor when you don't really want to be one .. The worst thing you could do is be one of those sitting right hand seat n stare at the VDO n airswitch and wait for it to tick over.... And instructing is not the easy way to built hours ... As a junior grade 3 an effects of control lesson should take 45-50 mins long brief then 10 mins preflight demonstration then n hour flight followed by a de brief going through training record with student and providing him with study notes for next lesson. So you should be doing only 40 odd hours in a month ..... Or you could head to kunns wait a few months drinking beer and pump out 80 hrs a month Insted .... Ps you can't really say you are not keen on instructing and expect people to say go for it !

[anothertwit]

Just go straight to Jetstar...the new "up north"

with 180hrs he may be overqualified for the right hand seat of a 320!:E

[ThePaperBoy]

If...
you took all the hour building flight instructors out of schools


you wouldn't have pilots offering...

flying for free to get the hours up

allowing...

options...for low time pilots

who really wanted to teach people to fly and therefore offer an improved career path for instructors.

Danger, from the sound of this thread and the other you've started it seems you're pretty scared of the realities of finding that first job. There is no shame in that, I went through the same thing at the start of my career. You need to get out there and make it work for you, now, and not sit at home sending emails to Chief Pilots hoping for that big break. I don't know your background so I can't offer recommendations, but throwing $15K extra at an instructor rating doesn't sound like the right thing for you.

What ever path you take, it won't be easy. Finding work as a junior Grade 3 can be harder than finding that break up north, and almost impossible unless the school that provided your instructor rating hires you. About 25% of your work involves flying, how do you feel about spending the other 75% completing student paperwork and briefings?

Once you get that break and after a while become a Grade 2, the next challenge comes along. How does one build their multi-engine hours? I'll leave that discussion to another day, but I've seen instructors stuck for years unable to get that break into a twin.

[seavenom]

Been there, done that, got the teeshirt...lost the teeshirt off my back.:O

There are jobs up north, just get some command time in something with more power than a 172 before you go.

FAW53

[xquuizzit]

I got my CPL one month ago and did my MECIR which I finished 2 weeks ago.. although i came out of it all with 100 hours more than you as i did quiet a lot of mucking around and a few ferry flights for the company i learnt at..but i left for darwin 3 days later after mecir.. and now in NT and starting a job monday. Right place, Right time.(really luck tbh). Staying in a hostel with a heap of cool guys and im enjoying the NT experience at the moment haha.. Get out there!!

[Lasiorhinus]

There are some very good instructors out there who started off instructing.

But they are the people with a passion for teaching - people who really enjoy what they are doing. For the most part, doing an instructor rating and teaching when you have little experience flying yourself, is a disservice to your students. I learned to be quite picky about who I paid to teach me to fly, and instructors who "weren't that keen on instructing" never got any of my money or hours.

In the helicopter world, you must have 400 hours flight time in a helicopter before being able to get an instructor rating. It is possible to be issued an aeroplane instructor rating with 200 hours flight time - or 250 hours flight time with only 150 hours in aeroplanes. I cannot see a reason why aeroplane students are not afforded the same minimium instructor requirements as helicopter students.


If you are not that keen on instructing, don't instruct. You'll hate it, and your students will be wasting their money.

Go north, go to Broome or Kununurra or Jabiru or Horn Island.

If the idea of leaving the big city scares you too, then either deal with it and go anyway, or perhaps re-consider aviation as a career path.

[Danger Banglington]

Thanks for all the posts, most were very helpful.

Thepaperboy , you were spot on with being scared, just spent 55 grand on a piece of paper. Never see any jobs with my sort of hours advertised except for grade 3 instructors.

But also just being lazy, as I was thinking that instructing would be the easy option.

So! The plan is to get my financial situation looking somewhat healthy. Then pack the van and hit the pilot trail.

Thanks again,
Danger

[knox]

KGH:ok:

Can't agree more. Most training outfits have guys/girls that have barely got the training wheels off, teaching you.

kind of like a chefs apprentice teaching another apprentice how to cook.

Knox.

[airag]

While it is a nice idea that all Flight Instructors are only Instructors because that has always been their first aviation career choice , the reality is the complete opposite , the vast majority are Instructing in order to gain experience whilst doing ATPLs , M/E CIRs then applying to either Charter , Regional or Domestic RPT companies.

Which is not to say they are necessarily poor instructors , you will find the normal variation as per any group in any occupation .

But most do move on within two or three years and that depends entirely on airline hiring , and of those who remain instructing in the long term.... well they usually wish they had moved !

I reckon it's a very good thing if your instructor has actually worked outside the training environment for a period , be it Charter , airline RPT or any other commercial operation and can bring that valuable experience back into the flying school however it is a rarity .

[ThePaperBoy]

I reckon it's a very good thing if your instructor has actually worked outside the training environment for a period , be it Charter , airline RPT or any other commercial operation and can bring that valuable experience back into the flying school however it is a rarity .

Yes, it would be a good thing in some cases. Whilst instructing I had a number of ex-airline, turboprop GA etc pilots become flying instructors (for the first time or back for another shot). Things often started off okay, but it didn't take long for some of these experienced pilots to become jaded flying 'little' planes and pass poor attitudes on to students. Experienced pilots didn't always equate to good flying instructors, much like inexperienced pilots didn't always equate to poor flying instructors. Again, it was down to the individual, their motivations and stage of life, but why would a pilot want to drop down the ladder to instructing unless they were forced or wanted a seachange?

Personally I wouldn't want to go back to instructing unless I lost my job and had no other options. Don't get me wrong, I enjoyed teaching people to fly at the time but the state of flying school GA doesn't encourage anything but a mostly transient group of pilots. Why wouldn't I want to go back?

Even as a Grade 1, multi-engine instructor I'd be only earning 30-50% of what I earn elsewhere. Why would an experienced pilot become a Grade 3 instructor for only around $35K a year?
CASA have made a serious effort in recent years to destroy the souls of instructors during renewals/upgrades, and basically label anyone that didn't learn to fly in Chipmunks as terrible pilots. They expect you to know the square root of the pickle, which I discovered in the real world is never actually required. They don't encourage a culture of passing on 'real-world' experience but rather tick the boxes that make up the Day VFR Syllabus.
The flying to paperwork ratio would increase dramatically, not in flying's favour.
The constant stress of students being put up for flight tests. Again, ATOs with agendas and a RAAF mentality make life very hard for some. Not everyone has the ability to be an air force pilot - they shouldn't be assessed that way.
In the last 10 years I have noticed a greater proportion of student pilots become lazy and only put in minimal effort. Many students are there just to post on face book that they are a pilot, rather than having a true passion for aviation. This gets you down after a while.
There has been talk of increasing instructor minimums since I began learning to fly. But would this really work? Why would someone want to go back to flying single-engine Pipers or Cessnas once they've gained experienced and their career was advancing? Better pay and conditions would need to be offered to attract such pilots, which would have a dramatic effect on the wafer-thin profit margins of flying schools.

[Lasiorhinus]

But if the only people qualified to be instructors were the same pilots who could make a decent wage elsewhere, that would instantly eliminate the sham contractor flying schools who undercut the minimum wage and have their staff earning less than the dole, because there would be a sudden lack of inexperienced, hungry newbies.

[airag]

To clarify regarding Instructors returning to Flight Training , I did have in mind previously qualified instructors returning after a period of commercial op's , not starting as grade three !

[The Bunglerat]

I spent ten years instructing in GA before landing a gig with the majors. In between I did a tiny bit of charter & some search-&-rescue flying, but I would hazard a guess that instructing constituted almost 90 percent of my GA flying. Some things I pondered along the way...


I never intended to be a career instructor, but was a relatively late starter (married with two kids & another to come later), & as much as I would have loved to do the "up-north" rite of passage, for various family reasons we were committed to staying in the big city - so it was instructing or nothing.
During my ten year stint, I regularly heard people say that "you shouldn't instruct unless you really want to be an instructor", or "those that can, do, & those that can't, teach", or "instructors are useless to anyone outside of instructing", or "you'll never get into the airlines unless you grow some big brass ones & head north/get into some charter flying", etc, etc. After a few years it became very tiring to hear the same stuff over & over, & towards the end of my time as an instructor I must confess I was getting well & truly fed up with playing babysitter to the guy/girl sitting next to me - instead of just getting on the with the job of flying an aeroplane myself - but having said that, I never short-changed my students & always made sure they got the best I had to offer.
If I had to go back to GA instructing tomorrow, I would most likely pull the pin on flying - period. Over ten years it all but sucked the life out of me, & in the end I couldn't wait to get the hell out of it. Not just instructing, but GA in general. Nevertheless I still believe teaching of any kind to be a noble profession for those who commit to it as a long term career path. I was lucky that I got to do a lot of what I call "quality" instructing, i.e. multi-IFR/airline cadet & the like, as opposed to just bashing around the circuit for thousands of hours in a C152. In this regard, I think I developed skills that placed me well for a career with the airlines, as I was already familiar with multi-crew concepts & adherence to airline orientated SOP's (unlike the circuit bashers & guys flying single-pilot charter).


I'm not going to get into the old instructing vs charter debate, except to say that I eventually got to where I wanted to be - & coming from an instructing background never hindered my career anywhere near as much as many people thought it would. Granted, I took a bit longer to get there than I would have preferred, but again that was for personal reasons, not because of being an instructor.

Whatever works for you...

[dlx_xlb]

If your not too keen on instructing..

Then your not likely to get through an instructor rating and pass the test anyway..

[Clearedtoreenter]

Nothing wrong with hours builders who instruct - mostly they are very highly motivated and committed to their career goals, good at instructing and they make a valuable contribution to the schools they work for. They are often a big loss when they do move on. As for some of the ones who'd like to move on but don't...... SOME of them end up making excellent CFIs and ATOs.

Who in their right mind would seriously think of instructing for a living.? It might be a lot of fun but there's no money or real career future in it, is there? If the instructing step helps get you where you want to go and you're prepared to commit to it, even for a short time, give it a go!

[By George]

Hmmm... Interesting post. I have just retired from a 42 year flying career, most of it Airline. I am now 62 and bored. Thought I might renew my Instructor rating that expired in 1973 and try and get a day or two a week. (I have just renewed my Instrument rating in a light twin). Two outfits have said, "you will be taking work off the young ones, why not try golf or something". I have Airline training experience and understand some of the problems in the Industry, especially the low hour cadet thing. I am an aeroplane nut and love GA flying but I am now looking at aircraft ownership. GA seems to encourage the 19 year-old instructor syndrome. I am ex SQ and had to go at 62 the Ex-Pat retirement age. ( Just bought a set of clubs, I always listen to good advice, so watch out you low flying C150 types).

[Super Cecil]

Whats a jnr grade 3 earn these days anyway??

Yoo mean how much do they pay?

[Ex FSO GRIFFO]

I thoroughly agree with 'SOME' previous posters.....

'If ya heart ain't in it, then don't even think about it!"

At my time of learning at the 'Royal Aero Club of NSW', there were a couple of instructors I had the mis-pleasure (IN HINDSIGHT!!!) of flying with - who could NOT take their eyes off the departing / arriving RPT acft ex /into SY, and who gave me NO Value whatsoever as THEIR student....

HOWEVER - IF you HONESTLY reckon that you would give your students your FULL and undivided 100% 'Care and Attention'....then why not consider it??

Who knows, you could be among the 'last of the 'real instructors' who 'care'......

BUT - IF you stay in that mode too long, then you will never be 'well off' in terms of pay etc.

However (again) it can be a most rewarding career in terms of job satisfaction IF you can land a GOOD job at a GOOD school, where some Charter / MECIR / variations are available to you....

There's nothing like 'old age' to give one the 'proper perspective' on life.....

Cheers and Good Luck!! :ok:

[LexAir]

Here is the link to the Air pilots Award 2010:

http://www.fwa.gov.au/documents/modern_awards/pdf/MA000046.pdf

[LexAir]

Absolutely agree! May your New Year be a happy and prosperous one whatever direction you take.

Good luck

[Mr.Buzzy]

By George,
If I was looking for flying training and you were among the instructors, I'd ask you to teach me. The 18 year old can caddy for the golfers his CFI seems so interested in encouraging.
Do us all a favour and renew that rating. So much knowledge, experience and wisdom to pass on. Please don't be put off by a CFI that sees you as a bigger fish in his small pond.
Happy new year!

Bbbbbbzbzbzbzbbzzzzzzzzz

[Tidbinbilla]

Mr. Buzzy,

The problem here is that flying schools want their (largely inexperienced 150 hour) instructors to work for free, or at best, 1980's wages as illegal subcontractors, whereas By George probably (and rightfully) expects to be paid a fair and reasonable wage for his many thousands of hours experience.

It's a no-brainer for the flying school. They can make up any excuse they like to not employ someone like By George. Why would they pay for somebody with many thousands of hours experience and knowledge (exactly what the candidate needs), when there is an endless supply of increasingly dumber sprogs (taught by inexperienced sprogs) that will work for free.:ugh:

Flying schools in AUS (by and large) have no interest in furthering or up-skilling our trainees (and putting back into the industry) by utilising guys like By George, but every interest in making a fast buck.

In the end, it's our (and the industry's) loss.

Until such time as this is turned around by a change in attitude AWAY from the fast buck, and back towards QUALITY training, the flying training industry will continue to languish AS IT DESERVES.:ugh:

[Wally Mk2]

'By G' I think what yr facing is an age old problem these days, many years experience gained & unable to pass it on at the end of the day. When we really think about it after many years in the flying game what do we have to show for it? What can we sell? Nothing really other than pass on some of that experience by way of teaching & even that thins out in time. Unlike most other businesses where you work all yr life say building up yr own business & at the end of the day you have something tangible to sell, a pilots license isn't worth the paper it's printed on sadly!
Flying schools am sure would have to raise their prices a lot if the industry instructors where paid properly, then I guess the merry-go-round would come to a halt sooner than latter as no one could afford to learn to fly, bit damned if you do damned if you don't!

Well at least the George's of this world can perhaps leave a little of that wisdom behind by teaching/instructing even just one youngster & hopefully that will have the snowball effect:ok:
'BG' go buy a boat, still travels in knots so you will feel a little at home!:ok:

Wmk2

[Jabawocky]

By George

PM me.....I think I know where you could fit in.

I prefer the experienced folk...... I actually learn from them. Except when it comes to engine management......but that is a whole thread of its own:uhoh:

[By George]

Jaba I have sent you my contact details via a 'PM'. BG

[c100driver]

With motor skill training such as manipulation of an aircraft controls it is usually better to have an instructor who can explain the process from recent experience of having to learning it for themselves.

Most experienced pilots have honed those motor skills to the point that they no longer consciously have to think how to move a flight control to achieve an outcome, they just do it instinctual and automatic. How do you explain to a student how to do something that you have long since relegated to long term memory. This is where you can see the more experienced pilot become frustrated teaching something that they have long since mastered. It becomes difficult to break down into small teaching bites from first steps.

However when the new instructor with low experience comes to teaching non motor skills such as flight nav, weather interpretation, airfield inspection (airborne), airborne decision making, airmanship etc then they really start to struggle with the lack of real experience behind the teaching.

Best choice is a newbie to solo consolidation then an oldie for advanced cross country and navigation.

As for instruction as a stepping stone, I have found that as long as the new instructor can approach the job as a professional and give their best effort then they usually are always better off for the experience.

[43Inches]

With motor skill training such as manipulation of an aircraft controls it is usually better to have an instructor who can explain the process from recent experience of having to learning it for themselves.


Havn't seen this in practice, the new instructors will generally just parrot off what their instructor taught them. A lot can have trouble explaining why they do things a certain way, but can demonstrate and teach how it is acheived. These techniques may be correct or not, depends on the quality of instruction they received.

I do agree however that a lot of experienced pilots can have trouble explaining how things are done. If the experienced pilot is coached in how to teach (and has the temperament) they should be far better at passing on knowledge by understanding of the subject matter and how to approach problems/concepts from different angles.


The problem here is that flying schools want their (largely inexperienced 150 hour) instructors to work for free, or at best, 1980's wages as illegal subcontractors, whereas By George probably (and rightfully) expects to be paid a fair and reasonable wage for his many thousands of hours experience.



I think thats the exact problem.


Flying schools am sure would have to raise their prices a lot if the industry instructors were paid properly, then I guess the merry-go-round would come to a halt sooner than latter as no one could afford to learn to fly, bit damned if you do damned if you don't!



In the past 10-15 years aircraft hire rates have at least trippled whilst pay rates have remained much the same. GST, fuel and maintenance costs have all soared and the flying schools are still are there. The ones that went broke were the ones not willing to change with the times and had poor management. As with the rest of the aviation sector if schools invested more money in good employees they would pay for themselves and profit from the work that they attract.

A good instructor may save 10 hours training to a PPL, not good for buisness if looked at each individual case but, a good instructor though reputation will attract 10 times more through the door if marketed correctly.

[MetGirl]

I don't think you ever really know if you'll enjoy or be good at something until you give it a go. You may not want to be an instructor forever, but as long as you go into it with a positive attitude and enjoy it while you're doing it.

[Centaurus]

Your cash may be better off put towards a ME-CIR or other rating.

Better still, go to USA and get a Airbus or 737 type rating in the simulator for $20,000 USD then give another $25,000 USD to Eagle Jet Recruiting to place you in an Asian airline right seat for the 500 hours Agreement. Then for the modest sum total of around $55,000 USD you are ahead of the grade 3 still hanging around Moorabbin doing TIF's.

Mind you don't expect paid a cent for being a first officer in your chosen jet. Once you hack that first 500 hours RH seat, the world is your oyster. Hopefully, that is. :E