Learning - City v Country Airfield.

[VH AGB]

Hi all,

Just interested in peoples opinions on learning to fly in Controlled City airport or a small country airport.

I've noticed the cost can be alot lower at country airfield.
I am looking to Complete my CPL as I'm not happy at my current school.

I am in Melbourne if that helps!

Cheers,
AGB

[WannaBeBiggles]

If you're happy with your current school, then stay.

There are pros and cons with each and everyone is going to have their own opinion about each, but most importantly is being happy with your school and instructors.

[VH-XXX]

When I used to hang out at a country school there used to be a poster on the wall with 10 reasons to fly from XXXX school.

It was something along the lines of:

- No landing fees
- No transiting to the training area; you are already in it
- Less traffic in the circuit
- Learn quicker, no ATC to deal with
- Short taxi to the runway
- Close to CTA for when you are ready
- Reduced costs, we're not paying a large corporate for the use of the field
- Safe, flat and open areas surrounding the field

etc.

I recall when the instructors came over from a "city" airport, they thought the TACHO's on the aircraft were faulty as they kept coming in from their lessons with .6 on the clock, not realising that the .4 was wasted taxiing to the runway and transiting to and from the training area.

So in summary... you may get better value unless you're talking about being an hour from CTA.

[VH AGB]

Country wise it will be likydale or coldstream.

[QFF]

I agree that cost is a driving factor in the city vs country debate.

But I also believe in the laws of primacy, i.e. people are more comfortable and revert back to the situations they were first taught.

I learnt to fly from a busy international airport in the UK and was quite happy doing circuits, fitting in amongst 757s & 767s. Coming to Oz, I was actually more afraid of flying to regional airports without a control tower.

So I guess training in the city is a good introduction to controlled airspace and R/T procedures. But if you're just going to be flying recreationally OCTA then why waste your money?

[Fondair]

Just going to add, stay away from Lilydale, very unprofessional mob.

[VH AGB]

Really? How so? Have you been there? I've heard some good things ??

[RENURPP]

Make your choice based on WHO will be instructing you.

The extra $$$$ savings by going country v city may be doubled or disappear completely depending on the quality of your instructor.

A shiny bum grade 3 that hasn't left the training area themselves should be avoided at all cost and the CFI should also have some serious experience as he/she will oversee the whole operation.

Experience is not purely hours in a lg book, it's more "worldly" than that. Ask some questions of them.

[VH-XXX]

There aren't that many "country" fields near Melbourne in reality.

Lilydale
Coldstream
Tyabb
Melton
Bacchus Marsh
Point Cook? (almost country in terms of airspace)

Sunbury aren't doing GA any more.
Not sure about Grovedale. A long way out of Melbourne anyway.

Recommend visiting them and seeing what you think. If you talk to the boss and he seems like a smart-a*rse, then make up your own mind!

[MajorCorporalArse]

I'd stay away from any country training school, I started in a country training facility (one of which you mentioned) and it was a waste of 12 months, they take you for an extra 50 hrs (200hr RA Syll. for CPL) plus the instructors they have aren't as good as YMMB or they lose the decent instructors because of the way it is run.

I switched to YMMB - Planes are in better condition, the cost is so similar in fact it works out cheaper as I don't pay any landing fees at any destination it's built in the cost. Lilydale for instance you have to add it in and it does work out to be the same if not more.


But the main thing I've found - Instructors are more professional and you learn more out of each session than a country ALA.

Also Lilydale is run like an RA school for oldies who want to waste money on a small hobbie and that's exactly what it feels like, they also suck money out of you (drag it out)

I'd suggest looking at places like Oasis FT, MFT, MFS they are at YMMB - Much more professional, better cost effectiveness in the long run (learn the procedures properly and that's what you need for CPL)

YMEN Is good to learn at although costs are more than YMMB obviously.

GL
TLDR: Stick to YMMB - Better bang for your buck, Better training, Better Aircraft.

[VH-XXX]

So what are you Major, 5 hours into your GFPT?

That's the trouble with these threads AGB, you've got no idea who is offering the opinion.

they take you for an extra 50 hrs (200hr RA Syll. for CPL) plus the instructors they have aren't as good as YMMB or they lose the decent instructors because of the way it is run.

Some pretty bold statements there.

The 200 hour comment for starters - only if the school doesn't offer the 150 hour course; plenty do.

Newer aircraft --> much higher rates!

You can't have your cake and eat it :=

[zappalin]

I wasn't aware the 150 hour course pilots are in that much more demand than 200 hour pilots! It's experience you'll have to gain anyway, and with some smaller operators the cost for the full 200 hours will be less than fancy pants schools giving you 150 hours!

However, as far as structure and a sense of order, I'd say some of the schools at Moorabbin may be better. The problem with flying schools is that most pilots have only ever been to one.. You've got to worry about someone who has been to quite a few! :E

[MajorCorporalArse]

Plenty do offer it but won't tell you about it. Especially when you are new to the industry which is what happened to myself.

I'm not far away from CPL at current, It's my experience i'm not saying every country flight school isn't good to go to Just one of the two he mentioned i'd steer clear of.

The rates were something like $15.00 more per hour... that includes landing fee's, re-fueling etc.

After my experience, I'd be going to YMMB and researching the schools avail.

I'll have my cake and eat it, might even share it with some people too.

[VH AGB]

What about coldstream? Did a new school just open up there?
Does anyone fly out if coldstream?

[kimwestt]

Learnt to fly there, excellent crew, loverly area, CTA right next door, used to have onight accom if you needed. Might have changed, but still worth a call.
THE MOST IMPORTANT BOX TO BE TICKED IS THAT YOU MUST BE COMFORTABLE WITH YOUR INSTRUCTORS/SCHOOL. I've had your question asked of me hundreds of times, and the previous comment seems to be on the money.

[Old Akro]

I can think of six reasons in favour of a country school, but only half a dozen in favour of a city school.

Seriously, start by thinking about what you want out of the CPL. If its a career, then a "name" school with credentials may have the edge. Also, where are your skills weak? If its CTA procedures, then that points to a city school. If its shorter strips, crosswind, etc then think about a country strip.

Above all the most critical thing is doing it with an instructor with whom you have a good relationship, who you respect and operates at the level of discipline & professionalism to which you aspire. You may also be looking to this person to give an insurance company a reference on your flying. So, a CPL instructor needs to be a reasonably heavy hitter. Especially if he/ she doesn't have a brand like Oxford behind them.

This is an opportunity to do some deep thinking about your objectives, strengths / weaknesses and make a strategic choice.

[superdimona]

Did anyone hear that whooshing noise?

[VH-XXX]

Isn't Grovedale closed or closing?

Last I heard someone landed there and CASA was rung because it was closed.

[airag]

My own training was a mix of country and GAAP and have since instructed in both locations as a junior and senior instructor.

A small country airport will usually have a single runway , often unsealed and narrow when compared to a typical GAAP ( Now class D !! ) layout of multiple wide sealed runways with towers to match , therefore you will learn crosswind technique quickly , you will learn what rudders are for when on the roll , all often without realising it and will be comfortable flying into and out of CTAFs on PPL Navexs.

Taxiing time will be minimal and as mentioned no transit required to the training area, plus lessons commence without constant radio and traffic distractions such as occurs in busy GAAP environments both outbound and inbound to the airport.

Circuit training will be far more efficient as there will be less cct traffic and nobody should be flying the B-52 ccts as seen at YMMB which can reduce the hourly total to as little as five circuits per session when busy.

Therefore for ab-initio and PPL training I would recommend a good country school , provided of course it's within reasonable distance from home , and for CPL etc perhaps transfer to YMMB in order to become more comfortable with class D and nearby class C in EN .

And I have seen plenty of poor instructors at MB so don't believe otherwise !

[A37575]

#9 (permalink)
RENURPP

Join Date: Sep 2002
Location: Darwin
Posts: 1,086

Make your choice based on WHO will be instructing you.

The extra $$$$ savings by going country v city may be doubled or disappear completely depending on the quality of your instructor.


True enough. Generally country hiring rates are cheaper and you get more actual flying (versus excessive taxiing and holding on the ground) that say Essendon or Moorabbin. Essendon is out unless you have money and time to burn. This is due to excessive overheads and travel time to the training area.

If you are able to take say two weeks from work then go to a country airport such as Shepparton and fly every day at least until you are solo. It is solo time that gives you real experience - not dual time, no matter how much the instructor will tell you otherwise. Whichever way you choose city or country, you must keep a close eye on the dual v solo relationship. Unfortunately some instructors, whether festooned in gold bars and big wings, or just plain clothes, can rip you off by excessive dual when you should be doing solo.

One country operator (no names) will not send you on your first solo under 25 hours of dual and sometimes a lot more. But that also happens in the city airports where another will flog you for at least a minimum of 20 hours before reluctantly sending you solo. He calls it "situational awareness experience' in the Baccus Marsh training area. Against the country choice is the additional costs of travel and accommodation. But it may be still worth it as long as you can assure continuity of training and you are blessed with the right instructor.

One country operator for instance (often a one man operation) skimps pre-flight briefings and certainly no decent post flight briefing. He will say "there's the aircraft over there. get it ready and I'll be there when you are finished". No briefing of course Then you find yourself into your 15th period of circuits and still haven't done engine failure after take off or crosswind landing or practiced the inbound call because he does it all himself. He makes his money on dual.

It is very much a case of Buyer Beware in learning to fly.

[seavenom]

YEP!:ugh:
I blame american TV humor. Kids these days just don't understand understatement.