Martin Baker Rides at Farnborough

[Buster11]

Mods please feel free to move elsewhere if thought appropriate. However, I suspect some senior PPRuNers will have recollections of the following.
At SBAC shows at Farnborough in the ‘50s I recall that Martin Baker had a rig consisting of one of their seats on a lattice tower maybe 30 feet high. The punters were queuing up to be strapped in and fired up the tower, before being winched down to ground level. I don’t recall people being carted off with minor injuries, nor do I recall any smoke or much of a bang.
What was going on here? Was this purely a MB PR device for public entertainment or was it something they also used for a serious purpose? Would ‘de-tuned’ pyrotechnics have been involved? Can anybody shed light on the rather dim memories of a teenaged Farnborough attendee?

[tristar 500]

One of our chaps on the Vanguard at Brooklands has just produced a personal film of the Farnborough Airshow from 1957 to 1966 which he took with a cini camera.

The event you talk about is on there, he even remembers the chap he has filmed having a go.

tristar 500

[Canadian Break]

Buster
I recall undergoing a similar experience at North Luffenham with a single charge in a Mk 3 seat in the early 80s just prior to the start of BFT at Linton. So, perhaps it was something they had produced for u/t pilots to use and had taken it along to an air show for the puiblic to have a go? CB

[Fareastdriver]

They had a rig at South Cerney in the early sixties. Everybody had to have a go. It was quite peculiar; one sat in it and pulled the blind and you were then nearly at the top of the tower with little or no sense of acceleration. One of our Malaysian students, five foot nothing, hit the stop at the top.

No bell, unfortunately.

[D120A]

It was also at the Battle of Britain displays at RAF Biggin Hill in the mid 1950s. I saw one or two punters have a go on it, and to a 12 year-old it make a heck of a bang. I have often wondered since if it caused any spine damage. Health and Safety nowadays would have a fit.

Ditto I seem to remember the parachute school tower, where punters were encouraged to jump off the top with only a minimum of instruction on how to land. And the stock butts, where you could fire the guns of a Meteor 8 while having your photograph taken...

Those were the days, folks.:ok:

[Pontius Navigator]

FED, indeed you are right. The other thing was removing the face blind at the top and looking over the hangar roof.

I was watching 'Officer and a Gentleman' the other day with the cadets using a dunker. They were strapped in, dropped into the water, then pitched upside down.

At first I thought that was a bit extreme, then I got to remember our training undergone with fortitude, dunked in the freezing channel, dragged behind 4-ton trucks, swimming 150 yards, made hypoxic, banged to 56,000 feet, para training, jungle survival etc etc. Bear Grylls eat your heart out.

One 'benefit' of the V-force was we were too precious to to anything really dangerous so our annual survival exercise consisted of erecting a paratepe at Folkingham airfield using the same rock, same lanyard, same tree and same tent pegs as the year before and getting a coke fire going using the same radio crate and coke stached from the year before. The DS couldn't work out how we had a shelter erected and a brew up withing 10 minutes of arriving on location.

[Q-RTF-X]

Hazy memories of a day out at Farnborough in 1958 as a Boy Entrant and seeing the rig in action, cannot remember what Mk of seat, might have been a Mk 3 but could have been a Mk 2, not sure. Anyhow, I quickly joined the queue and in no time at all was briefed, strapped in, and after a final posture check up I went. I was told that a reduced charge cartridge was used for these demos and there would have been no secondary cartridge(s) used, so all in all quite a step below the real thing. Nevertheless, it was quite a sprightly trip up the rig accompanied by a small noise and a small wisp of blue smoke. The team operating it was a couple of uniformed RAF guys and the rig, if I remember correctly, all folded away into a converted “Queen Mary”. I was lead to understand the unit toured around various stations and other locations as a demo and familiarization for ejection seats, and occasionally as a draw to recruiting stands. I cannot though recall ever seeing the unit again, anywhere. The team running the rig were very professional and their input along with the reduced charge made for quite an interesting experience with little or no discomfort; they had a well practiced routine and a pretty nippy turnaround.

[foxvc10]

The Americans where doing it at one of the Alconbury shows early 80's. Never had a go myself...

[teeteringhead]

Also did it as a baby pilot - before they ever let me near a real one! As already remarked, it was used at Town Shows and similar, and was very popular with Joe Public.....

...... was also rumoured to be popular with Josephine Public for a different reason ...... 'twas alleged - how shall I put this - :O that the acceleration had been known to .... :O err ... speed the arrival of a welcome guest who was unaccountably late that month :O:O Don't know the truth of that one, but was certainly strongly rumoured at the time.... maybe why they stopped it. ISTR similar arguments being used against the use of female FJ aircrew ....

And Pontius - you don't have to be American to be "dunked"!:uhoh:

[Ali Barber]

It used to be part of the Av Med course at North Luffenham prior to BFTS. Supposedly 1/3 or 1/2 charge, but with a long delay from pulling the seat handle to firing, which was to encourage you to not look down. Inevitably, one of our course looked down, at which point it fired. He damaged his back and lost his bang seat cat before he'd ever sat on a real one. I understand it stopped being used soon after that.

[chevvron]

I think there is still a 100ft test rig on the Qinetiq site. It used to be situated close to the runway centreline on short final for 25 (now 24) until 1982 when the Director RAE at the time, Tom Kerr, himself an ex TP, told the 'boffins' it had to be derigged when not in use. I never saw it used in 34 years, and they moved it to Pyestock in order to keep it elevated 'just in case' they needed to use it.

[foldingwings]

They had a rig at South Cerney in the early sixties.

From where it moved to the Aircrew Officer Training School at Church Fenton where I rode it (along with all the other would-be aircrew) in 1969!

Foldie:eek:

[SLLC]

Can anyone recollect having done the training and then used the real thing? It's just I can't imagine what use the training would have been given that the whole process even then was largely automatic once the handle was pulled (notwithstanding the various failure over-rides etc). I doubt withdrawal of the training had much impact (no pun intended) on any subsequent ejection experiences - would be interested to hear otherwise though.

[Chris Kebab]

Agreed SLLC, having done both I defy anybody to claim the rig had any real value apart from helping to shift any residual Ruddles gas blockages. As I recall it was a slack session at North Luff which was a hoot at the time but of zero real training value.

Concur with Ali - it was probably early 80s when somebody was injured and I think it all ceased soon after.

[Fareastdriver]

The rig only had a half or a third charge in. In the 60s there is now way it could prepare you for a Mk 3 seat with three cartridges accelerating you from zero to eighty feet/second in eight feet.
The wimps have it easy now with stabilised rocket seats.

[Chris Kebab]

..a slight nerdy aside but does anybody else remember that massive crane that could be seen from the OM thirty odd years ago - seem to recall it was the biggest in Europe at the time, if not the world.

[bowly]

The rig was still being used in the early 1990's at North Luffenham as I used it on my pre-BFTS AV Med course. Great Fun but glad I never had to use one for real. I think it was stopped with the demise of the JP as the JP was probably the only cartridge seat left, with the exception of the maybe the Canberra. Might be wrong though...

[ACW418]

I used the rig as an Officer Cadet at South Cerney in 1962. My memory is of a very long pause between pulling the face blind and the bang but it was actually just the usual one second delay to allow the canopy to go. As for its training value I never felt concerned about using an ejection seat after having experienced the rig but I never had much imagination so it may just have been useful to me! It was definately mounted on a Queen Mary.

ACW

[Max Reheat]

Chaps...

I've got a picture of it from when I did the initial avmed induction at Luffenham, but I am a numbnuts and cant get it onto here. Any techies prepared to give me a clue?

I'm using a Mac. Pprune keeps asking for a URL but it's just in my iPhotos library.

[henry crun]

Max Reheat: This link tells you how to post pics.

http://www.pprune.org/spectators-balcony-spotters-corner/203481-image-posting-pprune-guide.html

[SLLC]

The wimps have it easy now with stabilised rocket seats.
Far East Driver - I'm sure you realise that these things are relative - they are still rocket seats and although I'm very grateful personally for having had the 'luxury' of a real ride on one, I would not recommend parachuting with a fractured spine to anyone! Certainly better than the alternative, and MB have my eternal thanks, carts, rockets and all!

[Lightning Mate]

The wimps have it easy now with stabilised rocket seats.

What kind of crass comment is that?

(Martin Baker Tie Member).

[Fareastdriver]

People can't take a joke any more.

[Haraka]

IIRC from my days at IAM Farnborough in the late 60's, the rocket in the seat was primarily designed to continue lifting the seat to clear the aircraft, post the initial "triple bang" charge to get the occupant out of the cockpit. The rocket doesn't contibute much to the initial cartridge vital acceleration, close to the spine's limits, to get you out ASAP and on your way, (hopefully, upwards) although it can help with vectoring you skywards in more modern ( e.g ACES) type seats.
So basically the opccupant of a rocket seat does not get an easier initial ride than his or her (non-Rocket) predecessors.
I did go up the seat training rig when it visited Cranditz in '73: the big lesson to me seeming to be be how long 0.6 of a second takes when one is waiting for something to happen.


But then again,those who have done it for real.............

[Herod]

They had a rig at South Cerney in '65. One chap had the misfortune to suffer a misfire. While they sorted it out, he loosened the straps and leant forward. The subsequent firing damaged his back and, despite his and the medic's best efforts, he never finished flying training.

Dunker. Ah yes. Those of us of a rotary persuasion enjoyed the rig at Portsmouth, courtesy of the RN. The Whirlwind cabin was suspended over the tank, with the landward end of the boom attached via a bevel gear. When the crane "let go" the cabin sank, went nose-down, and rotated, ending up inverted. Interesting watching the water approach from different angles. Amazing how a person wearing a waistcoat dinghy can get out of the tiny windows in a Whirlwind.

[Lightning5]

At Tengah early 60's OC tech got everyone down on the football field to demonstrate the effect of an ejection. We had the Jav's (60 Sqn.) equipped with MB seats, having replaced the Meteor 14's with no ejection seats.I guess the idea was to make aware of the implications of pulling the wrong handle to maintenance crews !!! The seat was fitted into a rig (local manufactured) and the handle tied to a rope and pulled from a safe distance of course ! The result was quite sobering and dramatic. From that day, I always checked the pins and climbed into many cockpits for many years afterwards very gently!!!!!

[Fareastdriver]

What kind of crass comment is that?


My jocular statement having been taken the wrong way I will now have to justify it. A bit of research revealed a fasinating Martin Baker website.

Martin Baker - Ejection Seats (http://www.martin-baker.com/products/Ejection-Seats.aspx)

Of all the seats the Mk3, the one I was referring to, packed the most punch at 80ft/sec.
The Mk9, Harriers and Jaguars, left the gun before rocket initiation at 64 ft/sec.

As described in the preamble the Mk3 was designed for high tailed aircraft like the Javelin and the V aircraft. An early Valiant test flight ended in with fatal results when one of the ejectees hit the tailplane with a lesser powered seat.

Some interesting facts one discovers. The Mk 3 seat had a minimum weight requirement of 70.4 kilos/155lbs; so as I then weighed 145lbs in my flying kit and lifejacket I was below the permitted weight to fly in the seat. I wonder how many lightweight co-pilots like me knew that; and how fast would we go off the end of the gun?

I believe there was a quasi official procedure on the Javelin. Because of its high tail and delta wing control could be lost in the pitching plane. In the ensuring superstall or spin the navigator was ejected and with luck the recoil would push the nose down sufficiently to restore clean air to the tailplane.

I know of an occasion in India where this was successful.

[DeepestSouth]

- and here it is in use at Church Fenton in 1971. I was there and watched this but I am not one of the studes who tried it out. Someone may recognise themselves. Sorry I couldn't copy the images so you'll have follow the link. Some nice YUAS Chipmunk photos too. Ah, the memories! The big red handle on the right was, IIRC, to wind down the poor sod after he'd been fired up the rig.

::: rafchurchfenton.org.uk ::: (http://www.rafchurchfenton.org.uk/index2.htm)

Go to Photo Gallery and Yorkshire UAS/9 AEF Part 3

[moggiee]

Buster
I recall undergoing a similar experience at North Luffenham with a single charge in a Mk 3 seat in the early 80s just prior to the start of BFT at Linton. So, perhaps it was something they had produced for u/t pilots to use and had taken it along to an air show for the puiblic to have a go? CB

Ditto - around the same time. Great fun!

[John Farley]

Here they are DeepestSouth

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/johnfarley/1.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/johnfarley/2.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/johnfarley/3.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/johnfarley/4.jpg

[olddog]

Amazing!! He changed his boots for the official items on the way up!!!!

[petermcleland]

In my experience we pilots queued up in fear and trepidation as we anticipated our turn. Each chaps "Bang!" made us feel a little worse. Then after strapping in and getting ready, pulled down the blind, hardly heard the bang and then heard the "click..Click..CLICK" of the ratchet as the seat slowed to a stop near the top of the tower. Moving the blind off the face revealed a great view and one would then wave to the chaps below in the queue. Then.....

Most of us queued up again to have another go...this time the queue was full of animated happy chatter!

I was on Venoms at the time and we only had the one cartridge on our seats as there was no high central fin to clear...The training seat cartridge was the same as the Venom's.

[30mRad]

SLLC and Lightning Mate

Not withstanding the excellent website referenced by Fareastdriver, and others, although arguably slightly off topic, I (for one) would be interested in hearing how you got your respective ties. With 3000 hrs on bang/rocket seats and no ride, I have often wondered what it actually is like, the thought process to pulling the handle, and memories of the whole thing.

Are you happy to share, either on this or thru' pms?

30 mRad

[Vortex what...ouch!]

Some interesting anecdotes for you to be getting on with 30m. http://www.ejectionsite.com/estories.htm

Agreed would be educational to hear some first hand stories about the thought process leading to pulling the handle.

[Pontius Navigator]

And Pontius - you don't have to be American to be "dunked"!:uhoh:

TH, what I meant was that Hollywood's idea of rigorous training seemed quite extreme until I remembered being dragged behind a 4 ton truck over snow or behind an ML until told we could release etc etc.

While we remember the lessons we tend to forget the pain :)

[Schnowzer]

Did mine at North Luffenham in the 80s. We had a game going at the time where everyone on the course had an ace and if anyone showed it everyone else had to within 10s or it cost a round.

The look on one mates face as he pulled the handle just as everyone got their aces out, as he got to the top of the tower he was wriggling like bu@@er to get the card out of his pocket. A top few pints in Oakham followed.

[Pom Pax]

I think petermcleland reply sums it up best
pulled down the blind, hardly heard the bang and then heard the "click..Click..CLICK" of the ratchet as the seat slowed to a stop near the top of the tower.
Though I would have said clack rather than click and about 7 of them then clunk. I can barely recall any bang but all the clacks from my ride at Thorney circa '58.
I think sitting on something live focussed one's mind on the procedure rather class room talks. Keep your elbows tuck in! Perhaps I didn't keep my head pressed firmly enough back which might explain later cervical problems.

[newt]

The thought process goes something like this.................All of a sudden the earth gets very big and one gets very frightened!

Oh S**t I think its time to leave!!:ok:

[Fareastdriver]

Some of us had to ride it all the way to the bottom and make the inevitable crash as survivable as possible, twice.

[Jig Peter]

Coming up to 56 years since my "live ride" out of an on-fire Venom 1. As far as thoughts and procedures and so forth go, when that big RED light comes on during aerobatics, you get right way up smartish, do the checks (equally smartish) and then - if it's time to go, it's time to go Smartish too.
That do you, or do you want more psychological 'elf 'n safety analysis stuff ? Didn't have any of that then, and I'm always grateful to the people at MB ...

[petermcleland]

The Venom FB1s that I flew had no bang seats...We had to wait for the Venom FB4s for those. Our Venom FB1 procedure was to undo seat harness, jettison canopy, invert the aircraft and shove the stick violently forward. You then hoped that you would not hit the tailplane. Our first Venom FB4s had an early bang seat but the separation from the seat after ejection and the chute deployment was not automatic...You had to do that manually. Later the seats were changed for the more automatic models.

[SLLC]

30mRad I (for one) would be interested in hearing how you got your respective ties. With 3000 hrs on bang/rocket seats and no ride, I have often wondered what it actually is like, the thought process to pulling the handle, and memories of the whole thing.

I guess it's going to be different for everyone. My experience was out of a Harrier; engine issues which led to a terrifying minute or so fighting the hell out of the machine. I think I had just about every major caption to deal with from the initial (apparently) minor-ish issue, to total loss of primary engine control (over-ridden and got back manually - only a short respite), mechanical failure, fire (briefly in an after-burning Harrier - flames out back beyond the tail from the nozzles), doomed attempt at re-light with left hand as right hand went for the handle.

At that point, with wingman screaming at me and going down very quickly, I was pointing at a village. Full left aileron and went for the handle. The decision making process was immediate and I guess that in the preceding minute or so, the thought that this was not going to end well had obviously already occurred to me. In fact the tapes show I warned ATC that I may be leaving shortly.

The experience itself I have always struggled to articulate. I remained conscious and remember the splatter of MDC on the visor. The other thing is the enormous noise as it goes and the smell of things exploding too. After that, the only thing I can really say is that it seems amazing that the human body can survive it - just extraordinary force in a really short period of time.

I remember the seat falling away (the pin had been bent through about 80 degrees as I was holding onto the handle for dear life!) and still seeing my jet airborne before it crashed (weird sensation) - thankfully just outside the village. The main thing then was noticing that I could not breath, nor could I look up to check the chute as per the drills. One short attempt to stop the PSP swinging and then landed in a heap having not even inflated the LSJ. So much for all those drills; thankfully they don't train you to do them with a fractured spine.

Then lay there I guess in shock and honestly not believing it had happened. Rescued shortly after and the rest is a very long story. So for me, as I am sure every other tie owner would say - I can never thank MB enough. But it is genuinely not something I would recommend to anyone.

[AvMed.IN]

Finding this discussion interesting, including the 'fear and trepidation', as expressed by some, I strongly feel that practicing ejection procedure (along with the rocket propelled seats (http://www.avmed.in/2011/05/eject-eject-eject-current-ejection-systems/)) definitely saves the spine (http://www.avmed.in/2011/05/eject-eject-eject-potential-for-ejection-injuries/). Having seen the spinal injuries caused by the older generation Russian seats (KM-1), I suppose MB still leads from the front in saving lives and spines, though the latest Russian seats are as safe.
One may like to read the more about ejections at Project Get Out and Walk (http://www.avmed.in/2011/01/project-get-out-and-walk-a-story-of-perseverance/)...
Happy Landings :-)

[Tailspin Turtle]

I qualified on it in 1970 or thereabouts to fly right seat in the Army Test Board OV-1C and D. If I remember correctly, the rails went up about 30 feet and it was only a quarter charge. It still hurt my back a bit. The nasty part about the seat was that it was like sitting on a wooden church pew with no ability to shift position. You weren't supposed to have a cushion between you and the seat because if you did, on ejection with the real charge, your butt would essentially stay in place until the seat got to it. The seat would have accelerated quite a bit by the time it compressed an inch or so of cushion and arrived at the base of your spine. We were sitting on the thing for three or four hours on an inertial navigation test mission between strap in and get out. The other problem was the inertial reel on the shoulder harness was tightly wound. I had to periodically punch buttons on a test panel that was far enough away that I had to lunge forward, strain against the straps for a couple of minutes, and then be yanked back into an upright position. I'd have black and blue marks on my shoulders for a few days after one of those test hops.

[HappyJack260]

SLLC - thanks for sharing your experience. I'd be interested to hear what spinal injuries you had and what your recovery has been like. Do you still fly FJ?

I had a burst fracture of my L1 vertebra in a take-off crash following loss of power at low-level in a Siai Marchetti, 10 years ago. I still fly, but suspect that with my bolted together spine, an ejection would now be pretty bad news.

[SLLC]

HJ 260 - that sounds painful! For fear of this thread morphing into an injuries competition... I got 3 thoracic vertebrae changing shape - wedge fracture around T6 and micro-fractures throughout. Also something called Schmorls nodes which I had never heard of before! Only 'interesting' thing to look at really was as my calves and feet turned blue then black over the following days - I believe the leg restraint D-rings went into the bone causing the bruising. I did go back to it after about 6 months, but after another 3 months decided in conjunction with the medics to call it a day, lost my med cat and that is another whole story.

And back to the thread - it appears that since the practice rig was withdrawn, no-one appears to have missed it. Or put another way, were really glad they had done it when it came to the real thing. On the other hand, it clearly was another one of those 'experiences' one has in the military that you could not have anywhere else and that people remember with 'fondness' - bit like the dunker.