MERGED: Alligator Airways Grounded [Archive]

Nose wheel first

13th Jul 2011, 10:50

There has been 3 engine failures over the last 2 months and repeated breakdowns with the most recent being a twin loosing all it's oil from its starboard engine in-flight!!!!

I'd love to know how many of these were reported to the ATSB & CASA.... if past form is anything to go on none of them would have been! How many of the pilots who had the engine failures in the last 2 months were fired like last time? "Im telling you... I do class A maintenance so it's not my fault. Its because pilots don't know how to fly ma planes"

Tiger Airways has nothing on this mob.... Alligator poses FAR more of a threat to safety than Tiger ever have. Short of a change of ownership (fat chance of that happening) Alligator will never improve.

"I'm telling you.... I will own Skywest by next year and all their planes will have Captain Croc painted on the side"

Horatio Leafblower

13th Jul 2011, 11:21

I'd give a carton of beer and a kilo of prawns to know what Craig and Gail are thinking... but I wouldn't give back the (admitedly short) time I spent working for them, not for anything. :ok:

Nose wheel first

13th Jul 2011, 11:32

Funny you should ask that question Horatio.... my Mrs and I were just having the same discussion!

You'd have to make sure the carton was VB stubbies though... no cans. Good old RAS might get deeply offended.

The place is a far cry now from the days Craig owned it. We all bitched about things but man, we had a great time! Hangar parties, carton fines for spieling on CTAF, carton fines for wearing pluggers in the hangar :), carton fines for not returning aircraft in a servicable state, UPPER cartons for not returning the aircraft at all :E:E (that one was used at least once while I was there)..... locking the apprentice engineer in a prop box and the nose locker of WOY....

Yep, that was when Gator was a good place to work!

Gotnogoals

13th Jul 2011, 11:47

dont forget the the all day waste at bellburn in 40deg temp.
im still using those pink pens.

Captain Cockhead

14th Jul 2011, 03:43

" Im telling you, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care,
I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, You're fired!, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, Where's Shane??? I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, Im gonna own Skywest by 2010, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, Pork rashes, wheres my pork rashes?? I don't care, I don't care, I don't care. I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, I don't care, Has anyone seen my Franklin??????

SEE YA LATER ALLIGATOR!!!!

Nose wheel first

14th Jul 2011, 05:53

HAHA Capt C... that is hilarious.

I'm telling you, just fly my plane. Do it now..... and take Waterbaby.

The Green Goblin

14th Jul 2011, 15:28

Sounds like the culture is a far cry from when I were there.

Working under Craig we had a ball.

I couldn't get my head around running the cans at 80% power with a 300 hour pilot at the helm. The TIO-540 is a great engine and will make its TBO if you look after it and run it at 65%. Running it in the tropics at 80% to get an extra bungles a day in tha thermal turbulence is madness in my opinion.

I suppose RK knows something that lycoming and Gippsland don't know hey?

Perhaps CASA need to do what they did to Ordair, only approve resumption of operations if the owner has nothing to do with the management of the place.

27/09

14th Jul 2011, 21:43

What I've never been able to figure out is what's so great about the Bungles that there's enough punters to have even one flight per day to look at them, let alone several operators doing several flights per day. :sad:

Before you ask, Yep I've seen them, I didn't have to pay to seen them and if I did would have asked for my money back.

However the trip up the Ord River and seeing the bats fly just on sunset at Kunnas is another thing, worth every cent.

hugh_jorgan

16th Jul 2011, 00:01

CC LMFAO

The only way that they should be permitted to get back in the air is IF the current owner is removed from the equation. He would have to be the most arrogant person I have come across in GA. The contempt he shows for his CP, pilots and the rules/regs is disgusting. Stand up to him by refusing to bend the rules and you are dismissed on the spot...where is the support from the CP ???? hahahahaha

The CP resigned 3 weeks ago. His approval was not revoked as he informed CASA he wanted nothing more to do with the company
About time MB grew a set!

Now it is time for CASA to start getting serious about making aviation in the kimberlies a safer place. All they would have to do is seek out some of the ex CPs and pilots that have worked there in the last 3 years. Some of the stories they could tell...

SEE YA LATER ALLIGATOR!!!!
Love it

Nose wheel first

16th Jul 2011, 00:48

All they would have to do is seek out some of the ex CPs and pilots that have worked there in the last 3 years. Some of the stories they could tell...

Spot on Hugh.... I wonder if they will.

FOD_Hazard

16th Jul 2011, 01:14

NWF........tell him he's dreamin.

As if CASA would ever think to do that. Lets hope they take the time to read this forum and take notes. Suspect there is a long list of ex Gator people that would like to tell their story.

Toothfairy12345

16th Jul 2011, 03:25

I suppose RK knows something that lycoming and Gippsland don't know hey?

Love how 100hourlys only require an oil change as well, I'm telling u just fly it "but Rk...." I don't care just f$ckn do it or your fired!

AussieNick

16th Jul 2011, 07:52

Down in Halls Creek the other day and noticed the Alligator boys doing scenic's, I take it they have their CP issues sorted out then....

that guy

16th Jul 2011, 08:14

Ahh the memories..... every time i hear the phrase "I'm telling you" i still hear that :mad: Rhodesians voice :yuk: also the hilarious impressions, which still appear on occasions when sharing war stories with fellow ex pilots over a quiet brew or 7, with the stories that come from that place, we could (and do) go on for hours!

But seriously I am still astounded at the level of malpractice and negligence that has continued there completely unchecked. It was bad when I left, but it seems to be even worse now.
Now my opinion may be slightly biased, as I am a member of the illustrious "sacked by RK for no apparent reason whatsoever" group (as I'm sure many of my fellow pruner's are) But the man is egotistical, idiotic and down right dangerous to pilots and punters alike, his association with any aviation in Australia cannot end soon enough in my books. My only hope is that ending doesn't involve someone getting hurt.
On a lighter note, I had a great time during my stint at gator, and I put that down to a great bunch of fellow pilots and a good CP. It is sad to think that it could be a fantastic place to work and cut your teeth in this game, if only it was run by the right people

TG

Nose wheel first

18th Jul 2011, 10:09

So, are they back in the air yet?

MakeItHappenCaptain

28th Jul 2011, 04:07

Yup. With one of them following me onto 12 and another two rolling with 5-10 kts behind them on 30 as we're turning downwind.

And all of us departing in the same direction.....:rolleyes:

XX-ANY

28th Jul 2011, 09:25

Correct they don't want to wear the tires out taxing to 12 so the sop's are to use the opposite runway to everyone else and plus they save that little extra fuel for the flight to Wyndham.

ContactMeNow

28th Jul 2011, 15:08

I hear the CP is now only limited to FIXED gear aircraft :D

mrclumsy

28th Jul 2011, 21:23

Bahahahahahaha ..... CP limited to fixed gear aircraft !!!!! More people would find this funny if they have met the CP and had a had a conversation with him

Nose wheel first

28th Jul 2011, 22:55

Fixed gear only???? HAHAHA that is funny.

I don't know the new guy.... wish I did. I could do with a laugh today!!!

Lucky they didn't get rid of good old IXE. Unless that Islander is actually flying it will be the saviour of the premium twin side of the operation :}

RK will be crying that "No-one can flaa maa Aztec". Or his PA31 ... because "I'm telling you, they are the BEST planes".

Watch out Gator pilots..... you'll see an edict come out that the Seneca, Aztec and Chieftain are still to be flown..... but only with the GEAR DOWN! That way they'll be in compliance with the limitations CASA has imposed on them.:}:}

"I'm telling you..... "they will all faa faane with the gear down. It will just add 15 minutes to a Kalumburu trip. Go and flaa maa Aztec with the gear down. Do it now! I will pull the Circuit Breaker for you and sign it off as fixed undercarriage" (or maybe mini-me will)

The Green Goblin

29th Jul 2011, 02:41

What did Matt do? Land gear up in the Chieftain or something?

I 'spose CASA can't really point the bone. After Craig refurbished a C206 Amphib (after it had done a gear down landing on water and flipped) CASA decided to do the first test flight. Of course they landed it with the wheels down on Lake Argyle too :}

Craig was pretty pissed!

After that, there was no more Amphibious aircraft in the fleet, only float planes. :D

P.S I heard Rob wants to put floats on a fleet of ex Rhodesian airforce Aztecs and do RPT to Kalumburu. Reckons he'll bankrupt Skywest within a year. Any truth to this one? :D

mrclumsy

29th Jul 2011, 23:14

Y the aztuk over the other a/c he's got ???

mtrench

31st Jul 2011, 08:58

Hahaha. Good times. Hangar parties, bellburns and hitting town. However, never been happier to leave a place than Kununurra!

Im telling you, the aztec is the best plane ever.

cartonfined

31st Jul 2011, 10:42

I hear a jobs are on the chopping board at the moment; not being allowed to fly half the fleet must be taking its toll; that or the GA8TR 207 vanity plates on RK's new car cost too much. :mad:

russianthru_thesky

31st Jul 2011, 23:58

I hear the CP is now only limited to FIXED gear aircraft :D

Bahahahahahaha ..... CP limited to fixed gear aircraft !!!!! More people would find this funny if they have met the CP and had a had a conversation with him

Fixed gear only???? HAHAHA that is funny.

I don't know the new guy.... wish I did. I could do with a laugh today!!!

Go down to Albany and have a look at the scrape marks on the runway from 6 weeks ago, then go have a look in West Stars hangar at the 210 with its guts scraped out. The thing didnt even get to do 100 hours after coming in from the states before it was gutsed.
That and maybe the 310 he gutsed a few years ago and CASA probably decided welded gear only is the best option for this bloke :E

The Green Goblin

1st Aug 2011, 01:00

Quote:
I hear the CP is now only limited to FIXED gear aircraft Quote:
Bahahahahahaha ..... CP limited to fixed gear aircraft !!!!! More people would find this funny if they have met the CP and had a had a conversation with him
Quote:
Fixed gear only???? HAHAHA that is funny.

I don't know the new guy.... wish I did. I could do with a laugh today!!!

Go down to Albany and have a look at the scrape marks on the runway from 6 weeks ago, then go have a look in West Stars hangar at the 210 with its guts scraped out. The thing didnt even get to do 100 hours after coming in from the states before it was gutsed.
That and maybe the 310 he gutsed a few years ago and CASA probably decided welded gear only is the best option for this bloke

Actually it's because when CASA did the CP check flight, there was no servicable retractable aeroplanes available. The most complex aeroplane available was an Airvan :D

Didn't know about GS's little belly flops, I'll have to give him a call and give him some stick!

Having him appointed is a very positive thing. He will be able to stand up to the owner and mentor the 200 hour new hires.

I suspect compliance with flight and duty times will now become mandatory rather than pencil whipping exercises :=

mrclumsy

1st Aug 2011, 02:33

GG are u saying that MB as a chief pilot is a positive thing ? Or the new chief pilot for gator cause the rumor was or is that he is leaving

cartonfined

1st Aug 2011, 05:50

I suspect compliance with flight and duty times will now become mandatory rather than pencil whipping exercises :=

If it hasn't yet with GS as the chief, I doubt it will. It'll just become more creative on how they hide it.

FOD_Hazard

1st Aug 2011, 06:38

Having him appointed is a very positive thing. He will be able to stand up to the owner and mentor the 200 hour new hires.

I do hope you are correct GG but there is a long list of ex gator pilots that have been dismissed over the last few years for refusing to bend rules or fly aircraft that they deemed unsafe...including ex cps.....Why should the new CP be any different?

I suspect compliance with flight and duty times will now become mandatory rather than pencil whipping exercises

I hope you are right but I doubt very much that RK will want someone who is only going to allow his slaves to work for 90hrs a f/n.

More than anything the place needs a new owner. A CP that is willing to stand up for the boys and lead by example is a good start but I'm not really sure if that is what RK wants in a CP.

russianthru_thesky

1st Aug 2011, 06:48

Who's this GS bloke? Last I heard CE was doing his CASA checkride to be chief at the 'gater. Did that fall through?

lethalw

1st Aug 2011, 10:00

If it's the GS that I know - a fairly seasoned GA individual, with stints at a few organisations at Jandakot as Chief Pilot, RFDS and Regional Airline experience to boot.

I don't know too many CP's, or in fact anything about the "up-north' scene or Alligator, but if anyone could turn things around in an organisation, I'm pretty sure GS has the experience to do so....

Nose wheel first

1st Aug 2011, 10:43

but if anyone could turn things around in an organisation

Past Chief Pilots have tried to "turn things around" ..... it's not for want of trying! Unfortunately there is this teeny weeny problem of the owner trying to make his own rule book (which is vastly different to the regs) and then getting rid of anyone who values their life enough to stand up to him and tell him no.

Past CP's and line pilots alike have been given the flick because they questioned (and rightly so) maintenance standards, aircraft servicability, flight and duty breaches, pressure to operate well outside the regs etc etc etc.

Make no mistake, Alligator has the potential to be a VERY good company. The problem is that it's not being allowed to realise it's potential because of the owners arrogance, skewed ideas and mismanagement.

Towering Q

2nd Aug 2011, 01:12

If it's the GS that I know - a fairly seasoned GA individual, with stints at a few organisations at Jandakot as Chief Pilot, RFDS and Regional Airline experience to boot.

Gawd....don't let him read this, we'll never hear the end of it!

Go down to Albany and have a look at the scrape marks on the runway from 6 weeks ago, then go have a look in West Stars hangar at the 210 with its guts scraped out. The thing didnt even get to do 100 hours after coming in from the states before it was gutsed.
That and maybe the 310 he gutsed a few years ago and CASA probably decided welded gear only is the best option for this bloke

....not the work of GS.

Having him appointed is a very positive thing. He will be able to stand up to the owner and mentor the 200 hour new hires.

I hope this turns out to be the case, he definitely has a lot to offer the company. (It will be interesting to see how he handles his first wet season.:eek:)

The Green Goblin

2nd Aug 2011, 01:31

GG are u saying that MB as a chief pilot is a positive thing ? Or the new chief pilot for gator cause the rumor was or is that he is leaving

I'm sure MB did his best, at the end of the day though he was a pawn of RK from all accounts.

A little bit of unethical Bongo flying sealed his ultimate fate - silly bugger!

GS is one of the good guys and being a friend of RK, RK will listen to him. If GS does not agree with what he is being told he will leave. As can be attested why he left Cobham. He will stick to his guns.

I also heard he is being paid quite well with a house, meals and perks to boot!

Pity about leaving Perth for Kununurra though, perhaps he just needed to escape the bull****! :ok:

Towering Q

2nd Aug 2011, 05:42

I also heard he is being paid quite well with a house, meals and perks to boot!

Is there anyone he hasn't told?:hmm:

Cessna 180

2nd Aug 2011, 08:22

Whether MB did his best or not is one thing, but he was quite happy at the time to buddy up with RK to sneak in the back door and bone N O whilst he had his back turned.

The Green Goblin

2nd Aug 2011, 11:27

Whether MB did his best or not is one thing, but he was quite happy at the time to buddy up with RK to sneak in the back door and bone N O whilst he had his back turned.

And they were supposedly mates, and living together which made it even worse :=

Karma has a way of following you in this game.

mrclumsy

2nd Aug 2011, 13:28

GG agree with you there .... I hope the attitude at gator does change .. Its good that it's a stepping stone for cpl holders to get a start and learn how the industry works but treating jobs as a lotto draw and how pilots work all hours of day is not the way to go ... I hope the new cp makes some good changes .. Well he can't be as bad as MB even if he tried ...

GedStreet

6th Sep 2011, 01:48

Thanks Lethal! :-)

Super Ord

6th Sep 2011, 02:16

Hey Keg...when are you coming home for a visit?

GedStreet

6th Sep 2011, 02:20

Gee... I never gave PPRuNEe the time of day until now. Had one of my crew come in, concerned about what 'they' are saying about Alligator. Generally I can't abide people who hide behind pseudonyms and then make accusations. I had enough of that kind of thing fighting DS over NAS 2b. But, thank you to those who think the new team can turn it around. We can! And we almost have to CASA's specifications. Then, we embark on re-writing the Ops Manual to reflect the new systems.

I'm sad to say I inherited a litany of neglect and inaction. The crew were afraid to approach me at first and were amazed (visibly) when I told RK to knock before entering my office - I mean jaws hit the floor! My goodness, what kind of systemic brow beating did these young bucks go through before? Not all from RK I am learning. And the crew are already showing their appreciation. They love some advice and guidance made freely available to them. Isn't that what the CP is for, guidance? Seems to be a new concept to the crew.

Yes, I will approach the wet with caution and if I say no to RK, he knows its NO! At least he doesn't go behind my back as many owners I have worked for have before. My reputation in the Industry is the thing I value most and nobody will force me to jeopardise that or my license, which is my livelihood. In turn I will protect my crew to the best of my ability.

Alligator has turned a corner.

Thought du jour: Never tell a Training Captain he couldn't train a train up a track. Walk if you must!

Stay safe out there!

Ged.

GedStreet

6th Sep 2011, 03:08

Dunno Mate, planning an OS holiday at Xmas, come too! Thanx TQ although, you know, you may never hear the end of this! ;-) Thanx to GG too, you are right, I don't risk my reputation, license or livelihood for anyone even a friend - or should I say, especially a friend!

Super Ord

6th Sep 2011, 03:49

Can't come...won't be allowed any leave. Handed in notice with S's yesterday. New job starting in october.

Qantas787

6th Sep 2011, 14:15

GS will be good for gator as long as he can keep standing up to RK's nonsense.

I know MB and he has admitted that he wasn't the right person for the job and didn't want to risk his career resulting in him handing in his resignation in June wanting to leave the company for good. He regrets the way he was placed as CP at gator and never wanted to burn any bridges with NO as that was not his intention.

Unfortunately it seems the attitude isn't changing, at least 6 newbies were made redundant and offered a spot next year and seems like there will be a few more to follow shortly, not only that but the Chief Engineer has also resigned from the company. Most of the pilots working there are all searching for new jobs and don't want to be with the company and this has nothing to do with GS as they all commend him on the good job he seems to be doing.

With no twins online still, how is GS going to say no to RK if GS is away on an OS trip at xmas?? Only having newbies and no senior pilots who have experience in wet is going to hurt the company a bit i think.

Ged you have a huge task ahead of you and I hope you can get the company back on track and keep Mr CASA away...

Towering Q

6th Sep 2011, 23:55

See Ged....pprune's not all bad!!:ok:

Woohoo, 1000th post for me!! (It's only taken 11 years.):hmm:

notaplanegeek

7th Sep 2011, 02:28

I dare somebody to print this forum off and leave a couple of copies scattered around the alligator office :cool:

YPJT

7th Sep 2011, 06:18

I dare somebody to print this forum off and leave a couple of copies scattered around the alligator office and just what would that achieve? :ugh: If you think it is such a great idea and so important, why not print out a copy and personally present it to RK yourself? I can tell you now that he, like many others in this game who have had their character assassinated by anonymous unsubstantiated malicious gossip, probably doesn't give a frig.

The Green Goblin

7th Sep 2011, 10:56

Thought du jour: Never tell a Training Captain he couldn't train a train up a track. Walk if you must!

Problem is when you stoke that boiler, there is a lot of steam.

It's a lonely walk up them tracks. I prefer to be on the train.

Pineapples, watermelons or grapefruit, it all bloody hurts!

The boys are in safe hands, not the girls though :D

FOD_Hazard

7th Sep 2011, 22:50

YPJT. Clearly you have never worked under RK at Gator. There has been nothing posted on this thread that is incorrect or misleading about the attitude of the owner. Even after the new CP posted the following comments

My goodness, what kind of systemic brow beating did these young bucks go through before?

you seem to think RK is one of the good guys. There is definitely a bully culture at gator and at a conservative guess at least 90% of it comes from the top. If you want specific examples feel free to PM me as I do have a limit to what I will post on a public forum.

787

He regrets the way he was placed as CP at gator and never wanted to burn any bridges with NO as that was not his intention
That just proves how stupid and naive he is then. Lying to your CP and going behind his back to replace him and then still expecting to be mates. HAHA

I know MB and he has admitted that he wasn't the right person for the job
he was still quite happy to take the pay cheque for 12 months before coming to that conclusion. It was quite apparent to all under him that he was not the right man for the job from the start.

Good luck to you Ged, I sincerely wish you luck with it all. Gator has been in want of a strong willed, experienced CP for the last 2 years. Someone who is capable of standing up for what is right and having the necessary knowledge and skills to pass on to the newbies. 787 said it best Ged you have a huge task ahead of you and I hope you can get the company back on track and keep Mr CASA away... I do suggest that you watch your back though.

Qantas787

8th Sep 2011, 04:15

That just proves how stupid and naive he is then

I wouldn't call him stupid and naive maybe a lack of judgement on his behalf.

There is definitely a bully culture at gator

I agree, but theres more than a bullying culture. There are safety issues which stem from other cultures in the company and Ged needs to get on top of this fast, and by the sound of it he is getting there but it will take time. RK is always going to be pushing to get his planes in the air and flying and now Ged is enforcing flight and duty over time RK will start to get fed up with it as he is employing more pilots and costing him more money!!!! From a maintenance side of things there Chief Engineer has resigned and leaves soon, the only other person qualified......on paper is RK and who knows what will be missed or not done properly????

It was quite apparent to all under him that he was not the right man for the job from the start.

What do you mean by this? All the newbies that were put on had each others back and even MB looked after them when RK wanted to fire them for stupid reasons.

As I said before Ged has a huge task ahead of him and I hope he can stay there long enough to get the company on track and an enjoyable place to work again, however it will take quite some time.

FOD_Hazard

8th Sep 2011, 07:21

787 check your PMs. some replys are not really for a public forum.

GedStreet

10th Sep 2011, 02:46

Yes, changing a culture does take time. Rectifying systemic neglect takes time too. Re-qualifying every crew member, twice - lots of time. Good job I'm an instructor, poor old MB would have not been qualified to do what CASA have made me do.

Close circuits and glide approaches over an aircraft that didn't quite make it, is a bit of salt to wounds I didn't want to have to apply but CASA made me do it. Developing a good working relationship with our competitors, that takes time and trust too.

Dipping the poor buggers in the pool (and trying to make it informative for them. At least we got to shoot a few cane toads with an expired extinguisher) that's more time. CASA coming back half way through... Sorry, no it's not finished yet. You are flippin lucky I've had just enough time to fly with everyone. DFT8 takes 3 weeks to get here. Yes this is Kununurra not a capital city. Everything takes time at this corner of the globe. But that's apparently not part of CASA's pre-ordained agenda. Anyone got a job? 8.5K hours 1000 jet. Who knows? About 16 CIR renewals... G1 multi. maybe MB was right.

Towering Q

12th Sep 2011, 09:44

Give Chuck a call....that 1000 jet has gotto count for something.:E

litechop

12th Sep 2011, 13:09

I think I'm going to throw up

ContactMeNow

13th Sep 2011, 03:35

Azzure

13th Sep 2011, 10:12

Does that Jet happen to be of russian origin? :E

ContactMeNow

14th Sep 2011, 01:20

Does that Jet happen to be of russian originIf by jet you mean turbo(jet)-prop then yes. Next door is also telling me some Swiss form of a turbo-prop:}

A little bit of urine came out of me once I heard the news :E

YPJT

14th Sep 2011, 02:27

I think I'm going to throw upgreat first post.:rolleyes:

lilflyboy262

14th Sep 2011, 09:17

And it nearly took him 4 years to make that first fantastic post...

5th wheeler

14th Sep 2011, 12:23

I hear chartair have taken on AA's ex cp mb, must be desperate!

dreamjob

14th Sep 2011, 16:21

Why wouldn't you, 65k is good coin.

GedStreet

14th Oct 2011, 05:58

If anyone is still interested, I am pleased to announce that CASA have re-issued my Chief Pilot approval and have deleted further expiry restrictions. A few conditions were appended which we are already compliant with and I can certify to them. Now it is back to business as usual - but improved and MY way!

MB sincerely wished me luck with CASA. MB, sincerely - thank You!

Towering Q

14th Oct 2011, 07:52

Good for you Ged.:ok:

What's next....Kununurra citizenship?

cartonfined

14th Oct 2011, 08:18

After seeing how gator pilots and RK have recently been conducting theirselves, you're right Ged; it is back to business as usual....like nothing's changed....

At least you're trying. :ugh:

aero junkie

3rd May 2012, 23:15

Well this did pop up on AFAP yesterday, and now today they are grounded:confused:

3 May 2012

http://www.afap.org.au/files/nrteUploadFiles/32F052F201213A293A22PM.jpg

Chief Pilot

Applications are sought for the position of Chief Pilot of Alligator Airways.

Alligator Operates a fleet of 5 multi-engine piston aircraft and supporting single engine aircraft with seasonal crew compliment reaching approximately 20 pilots. An Instructional background may also be advantageous in the future.

Appropriately qualified applicants should send a letter and CV to; [email protected]

tmpffisch

3rd May 2012, 23:21

Is this what happens when you do it your way Ged?

No real fault of yours I guess. Glad to see you may have decided to get out early, smart move. Just should have been a year ago; we all saw it.

Nose wheel first

3rd May 2012, 23:27

GT is slightly off the mark when he says they operate float planes..... they haven't operated them for around 3 years. I hear someone with access to a float plane was trying to twist RK's arm into restarting the float operation..... Good luck with that!

3 engine failures in as many weeks (so im reliably told) clearly points to maintenance issues. To deny that is simply burying your head in the sand.

I'm sorry for the guys and girls who will be out of work if this one sticks but I have to say, the Kimberley skies will be safer without RK's aeroplanes.

The Green Goblin

3rd May 2012, 23:51

My premonitions on here were in fact correct.

CASA would ground them in the busy season when rob was trying to stoke up the bank account to get himself sorted.

If they make it through the dry, they certainly won't make it through the wet.

I hope with fingers crossed that Craig comes back, gets the place cheap as chips and builds her up again. It would be a shame to see alligator itself go, but many of us will be celebrating to see Mr Aztec and his personal
problems dissapear.

You reap what you sow.

It's a disgrace to see what's happened to the place since Craig departed. The good old days hey! Hangar Beers and BBQs, team work, comradere with the troops. Monty stories. Man it was fun!

Aviation is like a brick wall. You can pull a few bricks out here and there and the wall will still stand. Pull too many out and she will come a tumbling down.

80% power in the vans was the catalyst. Said it many times on here but engineers always think they know better than the pilots who operate them!

Glad to see Ged has seen the writing on the wall and is out of there. I wonder if anyone is brave enough to step into his shoes?

perth.pilot

4th May 2012, 02:20

Any news on whats happening down at Alligator now? How long the suspension may last etc etc? Great time to be up here in Kununurra looking for a job!! :ugh:

CASA website
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Alligator airways operations suspended (http://casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_100911)

Ex FSO GRIFFO

4th May 2012, 02:29

Rec'd this morning at 8.27 WST....

The CASA 'blurb'.....

Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Alligator airways operations suspended (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_100911)

:ok:

Hasherucf

4th May 2012, 04:12

Does this have something to do with the Theeda (spelling?) Station incident ?

tmpffisch

4th May 2012, 04:23

Theda would have been one of them. One of the pilots almost crashed conducting a turnback after takeoff last weekend.

Looking at CASA's press release, I'd bet that they're not only going to go after Alligator, but they'll look at suspending or prosecuting some of the pilots working there also. :confused:

splinter11

4th May 2012, 05:59

Surely this would have to be the final straw for Alligator. If CASA has any balls whatsoever they would apply to have the suspension extended and they would do everything in their power to shut the place down. RK has had misdemeanor after misdemeanor after misdemeanor, and treated it like it is a game with CASA. Well i think the game is now up and it looks like the regulator will finally win. If they are allowed back in the air and then there is a fatality, it will go down as one of the biggest errors in judgement that CASA has ever made, and it will infact make them look more inept than Kendrick himself.

that guy

4th May 2012, 07:48

Here's hoping casa gets it right and RK finally gets what he deserves...

tinpis

4th May 2012, 09:29

I hope with fingers crossed that Craig comes back, gets the place cheap as chips and builds her up again.

Well...its novel...:hmm:

wawa yaka mynmak

4th May 2012, 12:34

"See ya later, alligator!"

Ex FSO GRIFFO

4th May 2012, 12:58

Hey Aeropelican......# 79 dated 4/5/12......

Perhaps you should have said ......

May the 4th be with you......

:ugh::{:yuk::yuk:

Nose wheel first

4th May 2012, 18:28

I hope with fingers crossed that Craig comes back, gets the place cheap as chips and builds her up again

I don't think that'll happen GG.... it took Craig long enough to sell it... I can't see him wanting back in only to go through all that trouble again.

80% power in the vans was the catalyst

That may be part of it..... but that doesn't explain C207 issues. Nor does it explain the issues with the twins that have led to them not flying for months.

The problems are far more deeply rooted than 80% power on TC Airvans.

Kharon

4th May 2012, 22:08

Discussed in depth at the Barroom Barristers convention (pub last night), CASA got the primary sympathy vote (4-2), industry the preference vote.

This sort of stuff leaves the regulator with little choice it's 'iron fist' (or Bar if you prefer) time, it's not on, and both suffer. It's a sad thing for all involved.

It is a very easy thing for an operator to intimidate, bully or fire one pilot for refusing to fly an aircraft which is not up to snuff. If everyone said – 'No way Horse' then it becomes a difficult matter.

A Chief Pilot has some heavy duty backup available if the operator won't play nice; CASA supervised operations for a month or so would very quickly get the message across

Could this all have been prevented ?, it certainly appears so.
Just my AUD 00.20, no steam.

thorn bird

4th May 2012, 22:59

"A Chief Pilot has some heavy duty backup available if the operator won't play nice; CASA supervised operations for a month or so would very quickly get the message across"

If it was the FAA that is the more likely scenario.They are always reluctant to shut down what could be a viable business and throw innocent parties out of work.
It would be a brave chief pilot in OZ who sought CASA help, because they'd crucify him as well as the company.
CASA simply dont give a toss, we are all criminals anyway, as long as they get their bonuses, promotion and at the end a fat super, why would they be interested in fostering the industry they get paid whether their competent or not.

Sonny Hammond

5th May 2012, 11:06

Does this mob own WNI, a 210M?

Nose wheel first

5th May 2012, 13:26

Yes, Alligator do operate WNI.

She used to be a nice plane to fly... Even the locals in Kalumburu had a name for her... Nyum Nyum

Kharon

5th May 2012, 20:23

TB - If it was the FAA that is the more likely scenario. They are always reluctant to shut down what could be a viable business and throw innocent parties out of work. Sorry mate – RCS syndrome; thinking more about how the whole mess got to this stage, more than the old enemy. Yup – agreed but without an accurate picture and based only on what has been said here, it's hard to decide what an honest, proactive regulator would (should) have done. One thing is certain things would never had got this far.
TB - It would be a brave chief pilot in OZ who sought CASA help, because they'd crucify him as well as the company. Sad and very nearly true again – but a half way decent CP, not some CASA yes man and a competent FOI should be able to sort it out, quick smart. All the toys were there, numerous complaints etc. etc. Just tell the man – "We won't do it; not legal - mate cooperate or they will shut you down". With a "lightweight" CP and a junior crew it was always going to end in tears. However, as you can see (my bold) :-

FOD #14 - the fact casa approved such a young and relatively inexperienced pilot as the cp only compounded matters.

NWF #15 - I'd love to know how many of these were reported to the ATSB & CASA.... if past form is anything to go on none of them would have been! How many of the pilots who had the engine failures in the last 2 months were fired like last time?

GG #21 - I couldn't get my head around running the cans at 80% power with a 300 hour pilot at the helm. The TIO-540 is a great engine and will make its TBO if you look after it and run it at 65%

HJ #23 - Stand up to him by refusing to bend the rules and you are dismissed on the spot...where is the support from the CP ???? hahahahaha - # 23 - All they would have to do is seek out some of the ex CPs and pilots that have worked there in the last 3 years. Some of the stories they could tell...

TG # 28 - But seriously I am still astounded at the level of malpractice and negligence that has continued there completely unchecked. It was bad when I left, but it seems to be even worse now.

FOD # 43 - More than anything the place needs a new owner. A CP that is willing to stand up for the boys and lead by example is a good start but I'm not really sure if that is what RK wants in a CP.

NWF #46 - Past CP's and line pilots alike have been given the flick because they questioned (and rightly so) maintenance standards, aircraft servicability, flight and duty breaches, pressure to operate well outside the regs etc etc etc.

AP # 79 - “These incidents involved forced landings where CASA believes employees of Alligator Airways were aware of significant defects affecting the safety of aircraft prior to flight,” CASA said.

TMP #86 - Looking at CASA's press release, I'd bet that they're not only going to go after Alligator, but they'll look at suspending or prosecuting some of the pilots working there also.
My bold.
The word No remains one the most positive words in the English language, easy enough to understand.

That the culture of fear is deeply entrenched and well proven; but here you always come back to how was this mess allowed to continue without mutual positive intervention. It always leaves the messy problem of who can be relied on. If CASA was always 'honest' and the motives clear there could be a different take, but alas, instead of being able to applaud a shutdown after much effort, we end up back at the same old place.

But still, it seems (IMO), at face value that the regulator had little choice in this instance. If only 'they' could be reported to and trusted, if only they'd reported, then maybe, perhaps.

thorn bird

6th May 2012, 09:25

Kharon, I assume your “Quote” is from a previous thread. If the contents are true then it beggars belief that this company wasn’t shutdown long ago.

Then again one could perhaps ask how did it get to that stage in the first place?

A “proactive” regulator like the FAA are reluctant to shutdown what could be a viable business. They step in long before it gets to that stage and via mentoring and supervision restore a company to compliance and safe operation, and if management still dont get the message?? Hello FBI..Hello Perp. walk.. Hello comfy cell in a federal prison.

Our “reactive” regulator, piss ass about until it gets to the stage where either someone gets killed or serious questions may be asked as to ‘Why” they hadn’t done anything? Then step in and shut the business down with all the social and economic consequences entailed.

WHY???

For two reasons amongst others:

1. Our Regulations are a crock of Shyte and impossible to comply with.

2. “Foster and promote” is not in CASA’s Charter.

“Rules are for the obedience of fools and the guidance of wise men.” (Douglas Bader)

If CASA is permitted unfettered and unchallenged to continue with its bowling ball approach to compliance with nonsensical regulations, is this the vision for aviation in Australia?

Dateline Australia 2030 or even sooner. (Headline) “Australia an Aviation desert.”

Private Aviation ?
The last Australian certified aircraft was farewelled today on its way back to the USA to its new owner who plans to restore the vintage machine to its former glory.
All recreational aviation in Australia is now confined to ultralight and homebuilt aircraft which, being self administered are outside Australia’s draconian regulations.
Charter ?
There are no charter aircraft operating in Australia today.
Since the collapse of the general aviation industry only certain “Charity” organisations are still operating aircraft but require heavy subsidization and are prohibitively expensive.
The last privately owned charter company was shutdown three years ago unable to meet the costs of compliance with the new suite of Australia’s unique regulations.
CASA was successful in redeploying most of its redundant FOI staff into Chief Pilot positions with the new government financed agencies set up maintain essential services. These services are notoriously unreliable, cost ten times the equivalent cost overseas and do not have a very good safety record.
As a result most ad hoc charter in Australia is operated by New Zealand companies.
Flying Training ?
The last flying school in Australia shutdown two years ago.
The Australian license is no longer accepted overseas and the cost of obtaining one has lead to an exodus of potential commercial pilots to new Zealand, China or Thailand for training. An internationally recognised license can be obtained there for a third of what it would have cost in Australia.
It is also recognised that as there is no possibility of employment in aviation in Australia an Australian license is somewhat pointless.
Business Aviation ?
The level of business aviation in Australia has remained fairly static except for the large volume of aircraft taken off the Australian register. Its of interest that all advertisements for pilots for Australian business aircraft now require an FAA or other foreign license.
Airlines ?
Since the demise of QANTAS and the sale of JETSTAR to Asian entities, most pilot positions in Australia are filled by foreign pilots who by far make up the majority of 457 visas issued.
It has been reported that Fair Work Australia is about to hear an application for industrial action by foreign pilots demanding overseas basing as they are unable to exist on their salaries living in Australia.
Us old Farts ??
Slippers…warm fire…glass of superb vino…and a lot of memories of how it was, one thing the a…holes can never take away…may they rot in hell.

diddly squat

6th May 2012, 09:45

who owns the Gator these days?

Back in the early 90's WNI used to be lovely, with only a few hundred hours in her log book.

FRQ Charlie Bravo

6th May 2012, 15:34

I am genuinely surprised at the lack of chatter on this matter. Surely some of you folks up in PKU have some thoughts on the matter.

Watching with interest and hoping for the best outcome for the profession,

FRQ CB

PS Yes I am aware of the forum Alligator Airways temporarily Grounded??? (http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/457141-alligator-airways-temporarily-grounded-5.html)

WannaBeBiggles

6th May 2012, 21:58

Does anyone know how many guys and girls are now out of a job? I know they generally have 15-20 people, but am curious how many newbies and experienced drivers are no looking elsewhere or are most waiting it out?

kingRB

6th May 2012, 22:44

dunno how reliable the info is but someone I know in Kunnas said most of them left for Broome or Darwin already

cartonfined

6th May 2012, 22:45

AFAIK Biggles, there was only one pilot there (aside from GS) that had flown in the area longer than 3 months. GS resigned yesterday and is heading home; which will make things that one bit harder for AA when they go to court.

It is disappointing to see a bunch of newbies out of a job after they put a bit of effort into getting up to Kununurra. I guess it just goes to show that however much money mummy or daddy have, it can buy you a lot....but not an AOC.

Nose wheel first

7th May 2012, 01:10

FRQ CB, I wonder if the reason there isn't so much chatter on this issue is that there have been a number of posters who have, for some time, discussed the very issues that CASA have included in their reasons for the grounding. So whilst I think there is still a lot more that could be said on the topic it's not like it's snuck up on the industry. Also, a number of the RK supporters on here have been rather silent on the issue therefore there is little debate happening.

WannaBe, I don't know how many pilots were employed at Gator last week but I suspect not many. They have been operating with a severely reduced fleet for months and the recent spate of engine failures has reduced it to two or three. Usually by this time of the year they would have around 13-16 pilots with another 5-6 starting over the next 2-3 weeks..... and a fully servicable (or as near to as possible) fleet of about 15 aircraft.

There are a number of pilots on this forum (and a great deal many more industry wide) who got their start in the industry at Alligator. Under the previous owner, CM, the business was well run. It wasn't without its faults by any means but it would never have come to this. NEVER! Gator started it's decline a few months after the current owner took over. There are a number of the behind-the-scenes reasons that should not be discussed on here but there are enough that are pubicly known that by themselves would have brought it to it's knees.

Am I sad to see Gator as it is? You bet! Do I believe CASA have made the correct call in this case? Absolutely! Would I like to see Gator flying again? Yes, so long as the management was different, maintenance was conducted properly, the CP was allowed to do his job unhindered, complying with the regs was a matter of normal every day business, not a joke, and people were allowed/encouraged to speak up when they felt safety was compromised (for whatever reason) without fearing they would become the next firing statistic. (That list could go on...)

Alligator was a great place to work a few years ago and whilst we worked hard, we enjoyed it. Many of us flying around today owe our start in the industry to Gator. The Bungles and long hot days at Bellburn (as it was called then) got a bit old after a few hundred trips, but works tours up the Kimberley coast, days at the Kalumburu mission with the cancer man and the TV being changed to ABC news at 12 o'clock sharp regardless of what you were watching, cricket bats being thrown at your aircraft by angry locals at Oombi, freight runs to Balgo in the wet season, overnights at Truscott etc were all part of the fun. Not to mention the BBQ's and the nightly ritual of sitting around the hangar with someones carton fine being consumed at a great rate whilst the sun set in the west and the mozzies came out to play.

The Green Goblin

7th May 2012, 04:44

Quote:
80% power in the vans was the catalyst
That may be part of it..... but that doesn't explain C207 issues. Nor does it explain the issues with the twins that have led to them not flying for months.

The problems are far more deeply rooted than 80% power on TC Airvans.

Yeah we all know there were more systemic issues with the place, but there was cash flow to plug the holes in the dam wall when needed.

Once the vans started going u/s they stopped making money with engine issues. During the peak of last season sometimes there was not a single Airvan servicable.

As a result money got poured into the vans, the rest of the fleet got pencil whipped and run down. Engines were not replaced , aircraft parked against the fence etc and over the wet the money was not in the kitty to get ready for the dry. They were teetering on the brink at one stage to even pay the staff.

At that stage the CASA wolves were also circling causing problems for cash flow and as I said back then, keep away this season to the new fellas as this would happen no doubt at peak season.

If RK had of listened (listen, I'm telling you this now) and ran the airvans as per the POH, or even better, stuck to IO-540s, the aircraft would have performed as per every other season and he'd have the money in the bank to weather the storm and operate to whatever standard CASA made him.

I doubt he will survive this. If he does, he will have to listen to people for a change instead of thinking he knows best.

splinter11

8th May 2012, 03:03

GG, running the airvans at reduced power was the least of his problems...

Anyway 5 days is up, anyone know if CASA has had the suspension lifted?

LeadSled

8th May 2012, 04:02

----and ran the airvans as per the POH

80% power in the vans was the catalyst

GG,
Are you saying that they were doing "reduced power" takeoffs??
Were the engines being cooked, if this is what was happening, why is anybody surprised there have been engine problems.
Sounds like "False Economy for Beginners 101".
Tootle pip!!

The Green Goblin

8th May 2012, 04:19

No they were doing normal rated takeoffs however in cruise they were running at 80% power to operate an extra bungles a day. Historically 3 scenic slots a day were booked. By running at a higher power setting, RK in his wisdom deemed due to the higher TAS they could offer a fourth flight a day and not bust flight time limits for the crew.

Add inexperienced crew to the mix, shortcuts on maintenance, apprentice engineers maintaining the fleet without supervision and RK himself and his personal problems and you get what we have here. It only took him 5 years to destroy what CM built up in 25.

It turned out after extensive research by lycoming that the higher power settings caused issues with the harmonic balance of the engines causing issues with the fuel distribution from the engine driven pump and the subsequent burnt pots and cyclinders. Or so the story goes.

RK was in the hole over one million or so as rumour has it in lost business and engine repairs. He also voiced his pending litigation to lycoming (good luck).

Splinter, yes I agree, there are other major issues with his safety culture however had he not embarked on this self induced destruction, he may have been able to recover the operation.

Back to the brick wall analogy, (or the Swiss cheese) quite simply he removed too many layers of safety built into an avaition organization, and as a result he is not financially sound to fulfill the obligations of his AOC.

CASA deem this as not being a 'fit and proper person'.

I hope the staff are not left in the lurch and find other avenues for their career.

I also hope CASA don't destroy the careers of the small folk who don't know any better. Namely the junior pilots and apprentice engineers.

Guys, I'd join the AFAP ASAP if you have not already.

Jabawocky

8th May 2012, 04:45

No they were doing normal rated takeoffs however in cruise they were running at 80% power to operate an extra bungles a day. Historically 3 scenic slots a day were booked. By running at a higher power setting, RK in his wisdom deemed due to the higher TAS they could offer a fourth flight a day and not bust flight time limits for the crew.

Add inexperienced crew to the mix, shortcuts on maintenance, apprentice engineers maintaining the fleet without supervision and RK himself and his personal problems and you get what we have here. It only took him 5 years to destroy what CM built up in 25.

It turned out after extensive research by lycoming that the higher power settings caused issues with the harmonic balance of the engines causing issues with the fuel distribution from the engine driven pump and the subsequent burnt pots and cyclinders. Or so the story goes.

RK was in the hole over one million or so as rumour has it in lost business and engine repairs. He also voiced his pending litigation to lycoming (good luck).

GG

Most likely I can guess how they were operating :ugh:

Have you any intimate knowledge of the method of operation? If you want to keep this out of this thread PM me, I have no axes to grind but the lack of education among CPL's and piston operators.

FRQ Charlie Bravo

8th May 2012, 16:44

days at the Kalumburu mission with the cancer man and the TV being changed to ABC news at 12 o'clock sharp regardless of what you were watchingNW1st,
I thought it was The Bill that came on when the cancer man came in???

I really am sad to think about all of those young guns with their first aviation kick in the teeth. In five years of GA I was laid off twice from companies closing their doors and it is never easy to get back on the horse (not for lack of motivation mind you but sheer economies of labour).

Of course there must be a void left behind but if the writing has been on the wall for some time that void will have been slowly filled over the past few months anyway. Who are the winners (besides the travelling public)? Shoal Air, Sling or maybe one of the non-SWEK imports like Kimberley Skyways, Northwest, King Leo, BAS etc?

Damn that sucks for GS. Such a good instructor; he would have made a great CP with the right management. Bit of a run of bad luck for him a few times over the past few years but not for lack of competency or trying.

FRQ CB

Kharon

8th May 2012, 20:04

The Paul Phelan piece is here. (http://www.aviationadvertiser.com.au/news/2012/05/another-ga-operator-under-the-microscope/)

The article raises some valid points regarding the administrator needing to provide anything resembling 'proof' before shutting down an operation. But after reading the article, through the posts here and making a few phone calls, this case could become a textbook example of 'how not to do it'; for all involved.

Wish I had a beer in the fridge for every time someone involved has thought "If only I'd done that differently". Who knows, CASA may have gained a modicum of respect and the operation may well still be ticking over.

It's almost a classic comedy of errors, 'cept it ain't funny.

splinter11

9th May 2012, 03:19

FRQCB, The Bill came on after the ABC news so it was a full two hours of torture!

Nose wheel first

9th May 2012, 03:51

Splinter, you beat me to it. ABC news, then the The Bill..... and if you were really lucky in the wet season, a dirty big CB would unload right on top of KAL just as The Bill was ending and render the TV sat connection u/s, thus meaning you had no entertainment for the rest of the afternoon.

FRQ Charlie Bravo

9th May 2012, 04:03

and if you were really lucky in the wet season, a dirty big CB would unload right on top of KAL just as The Bill was ending and render the TV sat connection u/s,
I had one of those very FRQ CBs roll up on Good Friday once, had to stay the night unexpectedly so what else could I do for entertainment other than go to Good Friday mass sitting next to the Japanese bullet holes? Later treated to dinner at the mission sipping Coca Cola next to Brother John who was enjoying his home brew in 50 year old bottles the Army had left circa 1950s.

Not that any of that has anything to do with 'Gator (who I have never worked for).

FRQ CB

Cessna 180

9th May 2012, 07:20

I used to quite enjoy sharing a coffee and cancer stick with Michael on the verandah and then going for a drive around the traps with him in time to be back for the abc news!!
Does anyone know if Michael and Brother John are still in attendance at the mission?
Also unlimited Mango's in November!

thorn bird

9th May 2012, 07:43

Oh man the mango's:O!!!
We had a nice little trading scheme going way back when.
Buckets of kentucky fried from PH swapped for boxes of mango's returned to PH and converted into the best Mango chutney you've ever tasted by a yound Sri Lankan and his wife,which was traded around the place for other stuff ah!! they were the days.

tmpffisch

9th May 2012, 08:36

Yeah Cessna180, they are.

Nothing's changed....

Ex FSO GRIFFO

10th May 2012, 02:05

6PR Perth reporting that Alligator has failed in its attempt to regain licence, in ML Court this morning.

AussieNick

10th May 2012, 04:48

From Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Alligator airways suspension continues (http://www.casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_100919)

An application by West Australian air operator and aviation maintenance organisation, Alligator Airways, for an order to remove CASA's suspension of its air operator's certificate and certificate of approval was heard in the Federal Court in Melbourne on 9 May 2012.

The Court did not grant the order sought by Alligator Airways.

CASA made a separate application to the Federal Court for a prohibition order for up to 40 days.

That application has been listed for hearing in the Federal Court in Melbourne between 15 - 17 May 2012.

This means the suspension of the Alligator's air operator’s certificate and certificate of approval will continue at least until the Federal Court hearing

nz200lr

17th May 2012, 04:16

So any news on the hearing?

AussieNick

17th May 2012, 06:21

Doubt anything will be heard until next week

bunglesboy

19th May 2012, 18:21

I have been reading the previous posts with a sad heart. To read about what will be the demise of Alligator Airways is truly sad. Without Alligator many young new pilots will never experience the opportunities that were afforded to me during my years at Alligator. The memories and friendships that I gained working up in Kunners will be with me until the end of my days. It is a shame that we get these people who think they know better than everyone else, buying well established and proven companies that have been around for over 25 years and destroying them in just a few years. Unfortunatly no matter who owns Alligator, it will always be linked the Craig and Gail Muir. For years they built that company and it must be heart breaking for them to see it's good name be trashed like this. I feel sorry for them. Without Alligator I wouldn't be where I am now.

Rest in peace Captain Croc. Thanks for the memories.

GolfTangoVictor

21st May 2012, 04:36

Here here, bunglesboy.

A sad day for what proved to be an amazing start in GA for many of us.
Indeed- a bevy of true mates made.

Unfortunately, the ego got in the way of the hard work needed to keep the fleet going, and rk just wouldn't hear logic.

RIP captain croc

Ex FSO GRIFFO

29th May 2012, 04:50

I hear that management up there tried to claim some engine failure(s) 'under warranty' - and then produced the 'recording card' from the engine management system (JPI?) as 'evidence'....

Only to be told......
Here is the evidence of misuse.....
'You can't operate an engine at 110% all day...' or words to that effect...

So I hear....:sad:

Nose wheel first

30th May 2012, 11:58

I've been told they were put into liquidation this afternoon. Locks changed and all.

Thanks for the memories Alligator... over 2000 hours flying around the Kimberley in RAS, WOY, WOU, WOT, DMS, WOV, WOG, RTS, HQE, WOS, WOQ, IXE, FAP, KWP, RDA, BJN, EDE, WNI and a few cross hires too.... The flying was AWESOME!!!

Horatio Leafblower

30th May 2012, 12:11

WOT... no WOG?

WOG, RAS, DMS, WOY... never lasted long enough to get onto the twins. :{

Would love to know what Craig thinks.... :oh:

Josh Cox

30th May 2012, 12:11

MWJ, MXU, TUD and PQJ.

Nose wheel first

30th May 2012, 12:16

Would love to know what Craig thinks.... :oh:

I was thinking the same Horatio.... I know he was glad to be able to get out after so many years of VERY hard work... but im sure he's more than a little sad. It must be heartbreaking seeing something you spent years building up run completely into the ground in under 5 years.

tmpffisch

30th May 2012, 12:37

Quick look at the ASIC register confirms...

30/05/2012 7E4487868 Notification of Appt of Administrator Under S.436a, 436b, 436c, 436e(4), 449b, 449c(1), 449c(4) or 449(6) (505U)

Hopefully something is done quickly (AFAP?) to ensure that their employees receive their entitlements. Somehow I think it's unlikely....

Nose wheel first

31st May 2012, 01:27

tmpffisch. I don't think there were any employees left there. My information is that they shot the gap a few weeks ago. Anyone closely associated with Alligator would have seen the writing on the wall the minute CASA closed them down a month ago.

The business itself was quite a money spinner and there were quite a few assets (including some busted old 207's). I wouldn't think it'd be too hard to get a fair bit of money out of the place. Problem is, who's going to want to buy flogged out 207's and Airvans. The twins weren't in too bad shape (except they haven't flown for nearly a year)
But yes, if there are any employees left there I hope they get what they are entitled to.

It's upsetting to see what was (under Craig and Gail) a great business run into the ground by complete mismanagement and arrogance!

The Green Goblin

31st May 2012, 01:38

RIP The gator.

Sad reflecting on its history, not surprised considering the direction the current owner took it in.

If he stuck to the tried and tested formula and didn't think he knew better, this would not have come to pass.

I wonder who will fill its sizable boots?

Looks like Slingair and shoal air has an opportunity awaiting.

FRQ Charlie Bravo

31st May 2012, 12:59

From ABC Kimberley

Alligator Airways faces administration (http://www.abc.net.au/news/2012-05-31/alligator-airways-faces-administration/4044592/?site=kimberley):

Updated May 31, 2012 13:47:34

An East Kimberley airline has gone into administration, after nearly a month of being grounded by the aviation watchdog.

The Civil Aviation and Safety Authority (CASA) banned Alligator Airways from flying because it had serious concerns about the airline's safety record.

The company had taken on a new chief pilot and was set to resume flying when the ban was lifted this Monday.

However, Alligator's lawyer, John Maitland, says administration papers were filed voluntarily due to the company being unable to trade.

Interesting that the ban was actually lifted (not that they had a CP which CASA knew of course). Did they actually nominate a new Chief Pilot designate or just hire somebody with the intention of nominating?

It is a terrible time to be selling aeroplanes at the moment (i.e. good time to buy them). With so many operators in the local area I daresay some of the better ones will be snapped up to continue in a similar line of work. (Just don't mention the engines.)

FRQ CB

PS Without getting into whether it is right or wrong, it is truly a very powerful stick which CASA can wield in terms of the hearts and minds of the public. How robust are the external and internal checks and balances in terms of ensuring the power is not abused or misused (and no I don't mean fighting the suspension in the Court)?

Ex FSO GRIFFO

4th Jun 2012, 10:00

As of Mon 4/6/12....
"
Civil Aviation Safety Authority - Alligator airways remains suspended (http://casa.gov.au/scripts/nc.dll?WCMS:STANDARD::pc=PC_100947)

See Yas....
:}

The Green Goblin

4th Jun 2012, 11:00

It's of no consequence.

CASA won, the wolves will circle and make a buck stripping and selling assets. Then the show will go on, same aeroplanes, different livery and AOC. I wonder where RK will surface next? Maybe back to the Rhodesian airforce and his beloved Aztecs?

It will be interesting what's reported when the 07s are dissected by a new maintenance organization.

Up-into-the-air

4th Jun 2012, 12:40

Read this for a "double speak" spin:

Alligator airways remains suspended

The suspension of Kununurra-based air operator and maintenance organisation Alligator Airways is continuing.
The Civil Aviation Safety Authority suspended Alligator Airways’ air operator’s certificate and certificate of approval on 3 May 2012 because the company's conduct of operational and maintenance-related activities was seen to pose a serious and imminent risk to air safety.
On 18 May 2012, the Federal Court granted CASA’s application for an order to prohibit Alligator Airways from operating until 4 June 2012.
This prohibition order allowed CASA to finalise its investigations into a range of safety issues, including two recent serious incidents involving aircraft operated by Alligator Airways.
Under the Civil Aviation Act, once investigations are completed, CASA has up to an additional five working days from 5 June 2012 to issue a show case notice if CASA believes there would still be a serious and imminent risk to air safety if Alligator Airways was to resume operations.
If CASA does issue a show case notice the suspension will continue while the matters raised in that notice are addressed and a final decision made whether to vary, suspend or cancel the certificates. This could take up to 33 days.
Alligator Airways would remain grounded during this period of time.

Media contact:
Peter Gibson
Mobile: 0419 296 446
Ref: MR5112

Teal

9th Jun 2012, 01:02

Some coverage in the Fairfax papers today on the airline, as well as video:

The law of the Bungles grounds unruly Alligator (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/the-law-of-the-bungles-grounds-unruly-alligator-20120608-201bm.html)

blackhand

9th Jun 2012, 01:47

In his full decision, published yesterday, Justice Murphy found, ''I am satisfied that there are reasonable grounds to believe that Alligator has engaged in, is engaging in, or is likely to engage in, conduct that constitutes, contributes to or results in a serious and imminent risk to air safety.''

Wait, that can't be right. The mighty Kharon and his doppleganger reckons it's all CASAs fault

Sarcs

9th Jun 2012, 03:22

http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff498/004wercras/5705741267_e28a7062f3_m.jpg

http://i1238.photobucket.com/albums/ff498/004wercras/161524891_dont_feed_troll_122_450lo.jpg

DanArcher

9th Jun 2012, 03:41

Anyone out know what the legalities are regarding the media publishing a pilots full name either online or in print?

What I'm concerned about is the potential damage to a pilots career & future employment prospects after some halfwit journo names them in a inaccurate article forgoing facts to dramatise a story.

Is it time to start using a alias when dealing with pax?

Pinky the pilot

9th Jun 2012, 03:48

names them in a inaccurate article forgoing facts to dramatise a story.

Possibly cause a picnic for some Lawyer if the article is defamatory. But using an alias could hint that there is something to hide, because eventually you would be found out!:hmm:

Nose wheel first

9th Jun 2012, 04:22

DanArcher. I would suspect that there is no issue with using the pilots names as they would have been made a matter of public record during the court proceedings.

tmpffisch

9th Jun 2012, 05:06

All the pilot names involved are all public in the federal court rulings.

The video clearly shows the pilot having a laugh and big grin when offloading the pax after the incident. Hopefully no-one in the industry forgets his face and name.... and surely CASA will be revoking his licence (even temporarily), as has happened to other pilots through KNX. Rumours are around regarding CASA leading towards criminal proceedings.

Gotta have something special about you to try to laugh this incident off, especially when you knew you were flying a aircraft with a defective engine! (We all warned these guys this year; take the job at Gator and you'll be gambling with your career...hate to say told you so).

zappalin

9th Jun 2012, 06:04

I don't particularly want to comment on a business I have no specific inside knowledge on...
However! ALL young guys and girls should have a look at that video! When you're starting out you might not be brave enough to say no to the boss, indeed maybe lose your job if you do. But that video shows a comparatively GOOD result of what may happen if you fly an aircraft that might not be up to scratch.

Certainly had me leaning forward in my seat watching it!

baron_beeza

9th Jun 2012, 06:10

Hopefully no-one in the industry forgets his face and name....

Surely after a display like that he would be well out of the industry, at least in this part of the world.

I am sure many here are flabbergasted and at a loss to understand why CASA didn't pull the key from the ignition and toss it away... on the spot.

How he didn't kill all on board I am not sure. He certainly had a good go at trying to.

I normally feel media reporting is crap, I find it difficult to defend that video though. I feel for the pax and now look at the exposure the rest of the public are getting.

I was under the impression the new CP was going to sort that mob out.

I only hope all this has not damaged the industry too much.

FRQ Charlie Bravo

9th Jun 2012, 09:00

Incredible video (http://www.theage.com.au/victoria/the-law-of-the-bungles-grounds-unruly-alligator-20120608-201bm.html), thanks for sharing.

Without commenting on the other aspects I would like to point out that we should not judge the pilots big grin too harshly. Along with other seemingly inappropriate actions giggling is a natural response of somebody in a state of shock. Not only would he still be in default host/tour guide mode he would have been very very pleased to be alive!

from an article in PsychologyToday.com:
Why We Laugh: How laughter can help build resilience (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/happiness-in-world/201101/why-we-laugh)
We're signaling (sic) ourselves that whatever horrible thing we've just encountered isn't really as horrible as it appears, something we often desperately want to believe.I would say that perhaps every pilot should remember this part of the video and try to ensure that after an incident like that they realise that the emergency is still not over and that leading the evacuation is still part of their duties. Perhaps a FA might have some sort of insight. (Actually, I should think that as the PIC this guy had even greater emotional liability (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pseudobulbar_affect) and therefore more of a natural tendency towards nervous laughter.)

Food for thought,

FRQ CB

PS I know that this is common practice but it worth noting that "The six [passengers] were driven to the airport... by [the] pilot" (from the article). Just another overworked, underpaid and under-resourced casualty of the industry.

kingRB

9th Jun 2012, 09:02

How he didn't kill all on board I am not sure. He certainly had a good go at trying to.

Very disturbing video. The AoB that close to the ground, with equivalent engine failure...Well, I dunno if its a bad camera angle, but it gave me the chills. If I didn't know the outcome of the landing I would be waiting for wingtip to impact the ground and game over. Can't see the scenario or options from the pilots seat, but whatever was in front of him must have been certain death to prompt a maneuver like that. Not sure if it was skill or just sheer luck that didn't result in the deaths of everyone on board. Scary scary stuff.

The Green Goblin

9th Jun 2012, 09:03

Fark me,

It suddenly got real.

Before you hang the pilot out to dry you need to understand the culture that he was operating in. He was greener than an everglade, operating an aeroplane that is luckily very forgiving. It would have ended very badly if it were the 207. English is his second language and the turbocharger from what I understand was servicable prior to dispatch, however there had been reported problems with the waste gate. The owner didn't in fact tell him to dispatch it with an unserviceable turbocharger, but said if it did become unserviceable in flight, it would still fly.

Unfortunalty it failed on takeoff from what I have been informed. Read into that as you will. If it were Craig's aeroplane, he wouldn't have sent it out until he inspected it. If he did, it certainly wouldn't have been with a 200 hour pilot at the helm.

A 200 hour pilot Unfortunalty doesn't have the wisdom to say no when they should. Now with thousands of hours of hind site, guys like me would have refused the aeroplane. Would you have refused it after being told by the head engineer/owner that is was safe to fly after a brief discussion? Guys had been sacked for less. One for making a comment after being made to do the gardening springs to mind.

I also don't think that grin was a pilot who was proud of himself. That grin to me is a pilot who is living on adrenalin and probably about to come down real quick, despair would be displayed shortly after entering the pig pen.

So don't hang the guy out to dry. He was operating in an environment that under its duty of care should have nurtured him. Unfortunalty the system failed and the result is what's in the video.

It's a sad day to see this and really, those poor passengers. They are the ones who suffered. They are the ones who were let down by everybody concerned. Everyone concerned should have known a hell of a lot better. I watched that clip with my heart in my mouth.

I ashamed at ever having anything to do with the place, even though it was earlier last decade under completely different management.

Frankly I'm disgusted.

tmpffisch

9th Jun 2012, 09:44

TGG and FRQ, I may have been prematurely harsh on the pilot's reactions after the incident, however I was quite disgusted by his reaction; I hadn't considered it being due to shock. I would hope the pilot would have recognised early on that they were at higher risk of an incident, and had put some thought towards how to handle passengers post incident, and to continue duty of care even while you're struggling yourself.

There is no excusing the fact of course that he took WOV flying that day.
After reading the court ruling, it reads that the pilot was aware the turbo had failed prior to take-off, rather than it failing during takeoff. If the ruling is infact incorrect; based on reports I've had from onlookers what witnessed the incident, there was ample time to abort the landing, even after you factor in generous reaction time.

Interestingly, the ruling also shows that Gator would dismiss employees post incident, in an effort to 'wash their hands of it'...which we all knew took place. Strange how that didn't hold up in court though.....:ugh:

The Green Goblin

9th Jun 2012, 10:13

TF

You can rehearse to your hearts content on how you react under emergency conditions.

The only time you learn, is when it happens to you. Thankfully sims teach you a lot about yourself concurrently with the aeroplane these days.

Never judge. It could have been mine or your face at that door or anyone.

You can generally tell the experience of a pilot by the way they cast their stones.

learn from it and hope that if it happens to you, from this pilots misfortune you have learned something valuable.

Horatio Leafblower

9th Jun 2012, 10:25

So don't hang the guy out to dry. He was operating in an environment that under its duty of care should have nurtured him. Unfortunalty the system failed and the result is what's in the video.

Well said TGG :D

There is some culpability on the part of the pilot but IMHO the environment created by RK (which has been the subject of many many posts on here over the last 3-5 years) is what truly caused this event. :suspect:

The Green Goblin

9th Jun 2012, 11:10

I'd also say the decisions made by this pilot were made from a long chain of bad ones made by others.

Aeroplane changes, commercial pressure, maintenance issues, rushing, self imposed pressure, client pressure, it all lined up on this occasion to produce an undesirable outcome.

At the end of the day this poor fella was just trying to get a leg up like all of us in the industry and got himself in a bit of a bind.

I know for a fact that at 200 hours I would have discussed the same issues with the same engineer and been in that same seat after hearing the same responses to my raised concerns. Does that make me a bad pilot? No. It makes me an inexperienced one. Experience comes the hard way in this game.

When he opened the door he was probably putting on a brave face, trying to salvage what was left of his, and the companies credibility. You certainly wouldn't open the door in tears.

So if you see this poor bugger who is down on his luck looking for work, buy the man a beer and give him some words of encouragement. I certainly would.

And CASA, (i know youre reading this) instead of going after him, how about showing him some compassion and help him. It may be a chance to actually engage with industry and show that you are not after the little guy. You are there to support and educate them. You know, safe skies for all?

Perhaps some free briefs on EFATOs and a one hour lesson on them would be some good PR.

See these guys need protection from the industry just as much as the public. It's like going after the guy with a drug addiction instead of the dealer.

Food for thought?

Clare Prop

9th Jun 2012, 11:37

So many things wrong with that article and how it is written, including those adjectives straight out of this:

The Lazy Journalists Plane Story Generator (http://radans.net/jens/planestory.html)

Seems an important factor was a misunderstanding of English among many other things. I thought that was supposed to be addressed with the ICAO english language tests. Big diffference between being able to continue flying if a supercharger fails, and continuing a take off wihout take off power when there is enough runway to abort.

This video would be good for education about the old chestnut of not turning back after EFATO - shows what it actually looks like. :eek:

A good case study for the swiss cheese principle... no winners out of this situation. :sad:

FJ44

9th Jun 2012, 11:52

It's like going after the guy with a drug addiction instead of the dealer.

That's all they'll ever do, go after the easiest target.

Checkboard

9th Jun 2012, 12:02

Given the (presumed) error in getting airborne, I thought he did a pretty good job. A finely judged bit of flying, under conditions of considerable stress.

Soft failures can be the hardest to deal with.

morning_glory

9th Jun 2012, 13:08

GG, I will go one further. I actually think that CASA need to take someresponsibility for what has been going on in the East Kimberly the last fewyears. If CASA had not approved such low time inexperienced CPs over the2009-2011 period then Maybe RK would not have gotten away with as much as hedid, for as long as he did.

Ultimately it is the CP that is responsible for ALL flyingoperations and crew rostering conducted within a company. Owners/management maybe able to try and make pilots fly poorly maintained aircraft, fly overweight, totallydisregard F&D times or sack pilots thatrefuse to fly aircraft they deem unserviceable but NO CP should stand by andknowingly let any of this happen. Yet this seems to be exactly what has occurred.

CASA approved CPs that met the absolute bare minimumrequirements to hold the position. Pilots with minimal leadership andmanagement experience, poor communication skills, the inability to lead byexample (as their professional knowledge and industry experience was totallyinadequate) and most of all the inability or total lack of desire to carry out themost important role of a CP, mentoring, guiding and generally looking out for thepilots they are in charge of.

Maybe I am missing something but I do think the regulatorshould take a long hard look at itself. Maybe if they considered working withthe industry rather than against it then they might develop some trust. Maybethen pilots that encounter operations like Alligator would be more inclined tospeak up and report them rather than worrying about any repercussions forthings they were made to do while employed (ie bust F&D, fly overweight etcetc).

Nice to see CASA finally catch up with RK, I have beenwaiting a very loooong time for this day. Pity Gator had to go bust but it was reallythe only way that it was ever going to end.

RadioSaigon

9th Jun 2012, 13:23

FrqCB -incredibly well spoken. You've hit all the points worth considering. Fair to say my arse was puckered watching that vid. It speaks volumes of the culture this pilot was operating within.

TGG I often have issue with your contributions and attitiude, but this time you've hit the nail. CASA paying attention tho? Good luck with that. They'll go after the easy-beat every time.

PinC responsibility in this age of PC and automation must be reinforced and emphasised until it engrained.

baron_beeza -generally concur, but to hang & dry the PinC without consideration of his experience, the culture of his environment and the operational conditions of the day would IMO be inappropriate. We both know better -and have seen it happen.

Horatio -of course there are errors of judgement by PinC, and I agree, there were deeper issues underlying this... but still attempting a 2nd departure with a known serious fault... wow.

There's plenty of blame to be laid about in light of the apparent evidence... who knows what else lies about?

Damn MG -that's a broad brush you're painting with! I flew with Ged only briefly over the space of only a few days -not weeks- but was impressed (and occasionally frustrated) by his professionalism and adherence to promulgated procedures. I have no doubt that his standards were challenged by his employer, having followed the discussions here with interest.

FRQ Charlie Bravo

9th Jun 2012, 14:05

Thanks RadioSaigon,

You are very right in what you are saying about JS (like hundreds of pilots here I have dual time under him and found him to be a wealth of information and a beacon of the rule of law).

However to be fair to MG I think that it's important to note that MG did specify 2009-2011 which is outside of JS's time at Gator. (That's not to say that the rest of the post could infer culpability on JS so your post is not inaccurate nor misleading.)

FRQ CB

FRQ Charlie Bravo

9th Jun 2012, 14:08

As an aside,

I will not speak ill of the past CPs from Gator because I never had negative [professional] dealings with any of them however I knew three of them professionally and I can say that as an impressionable junior pilot I always respected their position.

I do remember a Gator CP turning down a flight due to DG concerns which we ended up taking on (in this particular instance with this particular model we were in receipt of a differing opinion from a Perth-based DG education provider). This was a profitable run and there were idle Gator aircraft and aircrew sitting ready for work so it spoke highly to me of that particular CP's gumption with sticking to what he believed to be an illicit flight.

Props to that pilot.

FRQ CB

FRQ Charlie Bravo

9th Jun 2012, 14:23

Checkerboard,

I thought he did a pretty good job. A finely judged bit of flying...
Soft failures can be the hardest to deal with.
Hear hear! Give me a clean cut hard failure over a soft failure any day. (Just ask the crew of British Midland Flight 92 (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kegworth_air_disaster) who had a clean failure but still fell into the classic traps of the soft failure.)

FRQ CB

morning_glory

9th Jun 2012, 21:48

If CASA had not approved such low time inexperienced CPs over the2009-2011
period

CASA approved CPs that met the absolute bare minimum requirements to hold the
position. Pilots with minimal leadership and management experience, poor
communication skills, the inability to lead by example (as their professional
knowledge and industry experience was totally inadequate)

Does any of this sound like I was referring to GS? I apoligise if it does but I thought it was pretty clear that he is not any of the above. Appointing someone like GS a few years earlier might just have saved the company, unfortunately by the time he arrived the company was way beyond repair.

baron_beeza

10th Jun 2012, 02:15

RS is right about my earlier comments. We have both been there and done that with similar companies back when.

I appreciate the demand placed on these junior pilots but that is where the CP is the captain of the ship.

I thought the video was scary... perhaps a lot worse than what the pilot was seeing out the windscreen.

What I was amazed at was the ease these blokes accept an unserviceable aircraft and then load fare paying passengers onto it.

Speaking as a LAME now..

I am a little confused over whether the pilot knew the Turbo was dodgy. From the comments made by the reporter I assumed he thought he could take off with it U/S.

To me that come down to procedure, was the defect written up. Was it cleared in an acceptable manner. Was the aircraft suitable for the task ?

I think we can all guess the answers.

If the defect was not written up then who's fault is that ?
Was that the culture ? report a defect and you are down the road..

I also worry about who told him it was ok to fly. Was it a LAME ?
How did he declare the aircraft serviceable ?

Why did the engineers not demand defects to be reported...

The biggest question perhaps should be why CASA didn't act sooner.

blackhand

10th Jun 2012, 02:41

CASA approved CPs that met the absolute bare minimumrequirements to hold the position.

What else should CASA do when an applicant for a document achieves the requirement to hold that document? Add further requirements because you want to. I was issued my AME licence when I reached the minimum requirements, using your logic I shouldn't have been.
The biggest question perhaps should be why CASA didn't act sooner.
Gday Baron Beeza, in what way could they have acted earlier?

baron_beeza

10th Jun 2012, 03:02

Gday Baron Beeza, in what way could they have acted earlier?

A good question and one for which I have no answer.
In NZ a company attracting comments on a public forum such as this one would have had at least one visit from a CAA audit team.
Similar events here have often reflected poorly on all involved, the Air Adventures crash on approach to ChCh comes to mind.

Was Alligator under close CASA scrutiny at the time ? I am imagining that they would have been..

I see many young pilots trying to take unserviceable aircraft flying, when the question is asked some have replied that it is serviceable until they are told otherwise. I always thought the C of A was subject to a satisfactory pilot's pre-flight inspection. Many of these guys may just be checking oil, fuel and air in the tyres.

While I am still coming down hard on the pilot, because I understood he knew the turbocharger was faulty, I am worried about the others.
Chief Engineer, Chief Pilot and Ops Manager, Owner etc.

If it was a culture issue then how was this Pilot allowed to take a defective machine whilst under CASA scrutiny ?

Who here would deem that aircraft airworthy and proceed to load passengers onto it.... fare paying or otherwise ?

Nose wheel first

10th Jun 2012, 03:40

While I am still coming down hard on the pilot, because I understood he knew the turbocharger was faulty, I am worried about the others.
Chief Engineer, Chief Pilot and Ops Manager, Owner etc.

Three of those mentioned above were the same person and therein lay a fair bit of the problem. (CP was the odd one out)

blackhand

10th Jun 2012, 04:04

While I am still coming down hard on the pilot, because I understood he knew the turbocharger was faulty, I am worried about the others
Gday Baron Beeza, whilst you and I know the implications of a faulty turbocharger I have my doubts that a pilot would, especially when the CE/Ops manager/Owner told him it wouldn't be an issue.
Having worked for similar organisations in Australia and the South Pacific I know that it is an up hill battle to get these organisations to maintain their aircraft safely.
Cheers
BH

RadioSaigon

10th Jun 2012, 04:24

whilst you and I know the implications of a faulty turbocharger I have my doubts that a pilot would...

jeeez REALLY??? You don't think failure to deliver max-rated power when the throttle was opened would have been any sort of indicator??? THAT was the last line of defence and when the departure should have been aborted, given the obvious failure of all other defences.

morning_glory

10th Jun 2012, 04:26

BH

What else should CASA do when an applicant for a document achieves the
requirement to hold that document? Add further requirements because you want to.
I was issued my AME licence when I reached the minimum requirements, using your
logic I shouldn't have been

The Minimum requirements for CP for that type of operation is 1000hours including 200 in command of M/E. 12 Months experience in commercial operations. Maybe that type of experience is acceptable for a 1 or 2 plane operation but when you are looking at operations where 15-20 low time pilots are going to be placed under your command and a fleet of up to 15-20 aircraftdo you really thisnk that is acceptable. Would you consider your experience as a maintainer after 12 months in the industry would have been sufficient for you to take on the role of Chief Engineer with 15-20 apprentice AMEs working under you??

According to table A in CAO 82: 2000 hours and 400 command on M/E for which 2 or more flight crew are required and 2 years industry experience is all that is needed to become CP of QANTAS. Hey might put in my app when I hit those minimums, you reckon I should get the job?

Gday Baron Beeza, in what way could they have acted earlier? It has been widely known for quite some time about some of the antics that have been going on in that place. Posted almost 12 months ago. Now it is time for CASA to start getting serious about making aviation in the
kimberlies a safer place. All they would have to do is seek out some of the ex
CPs and pilots that have worked there in the last 3 years. Some of the stories
they could tell...

flying-spike

10th Jun 2012, 05:10

Firstly, let me say I am not an instructor but I was an ATO and my CPL was issued 25 years ago.
I n this day of HF and CRM at what stage is this sort of scenario (resisting pressure/resolving conflict) covered in CPL training? If it isn't covered why not? As just about every contributor to this thread has said, this scenario is not a novel one especially when operators balance on the edge of financial viability. What training is given to pilots at the entry stage to equip them to cope with this sort of situation, to be the final barrier?

blackhand

10th Jun 2012, 05:37

@RadioSaigon
You obviously know the implications and what it means if the wastegate is intermittant, I have seen low time pilot not realise he was down on power when the turbocharged
engine only made 29 inches on ground check.
@Morning Glory
Agreed, but the difference is that when a candidate is presented to CASA who fulfils the regulatory requirements they are obliged to approve them.
CASA hands are tied until they have prima facia evidence of the infringement - and happy I am for that or else I would have lost my licence on more than one occasion.

Hasherucf

10th Jun 2012, 09:14

How many LAME's did they have over the last year ?. The Owner/Chief Engineer/Ops Manager (same guy) was the only one ? I know of two engineers that did work there and have both washed their hands of the place.

This may come down to the issue of engineers VS aircraft ratios.

michael36

10th Jun 2012, 10:02

What it could possibly come down to is whether the turbocharger was Ground or Altitude Boosted. If it were an Altitude boosted turbo it would not cause a problem as it only aims to maintain MSL power up to a specific altitude. I'm assuming that the turbo fitted on this aircraft was ground boosted and that is the reason why there was insufficient power.
Could it be possible the engineers/pilots thought it was altitude boosted? Because in that case the aircraft could fly it would just never get to its service ceiling but still be quite capable below 10 000ft.

baron_beeza

10th Jun 2012, 11:15

Could it be possible the engineers/pilots thought it was altitude boosted?

A strange question... they would have to be the most incompetent about..
Very few here would have any doubts about it.
I have never worked on the type but I had a fair idea what power he should be seeing during the take-off.

Turbonormalizing Vs Turbocharging

There is normal take-off figure of 38" mentioned in the TCDS. .....300hp@2500rpm/38"

www.casa.gov.au/casadata/cota/download/VA503.pdf

The video seemed to show a dramatic power reduction though, - the aircraft was struggling to remain airborne.
I have not seen the report. What power setting did he actually achieve ?

I like what RS had to say.
You don't think failure to deliver max-rated power when the throttle was opened would have been any sort of indicator??? THAT was the last line of defence and when the departure should have been aborted, given the obvious failure of all other defences.

The Green Goblin

10th Jun 2012, 11:23

What the problem is here guys is you are reading the news article claiming he took off with a known faulty turbo charger and are believing it.

I'd eat my hat if any pilot was that stupid.

From the inside , I have heard that there was previous complaints from other pilots with the waste gate.

This was discussed with RK by the pilot concerned and the pilot was informed that if the unit failed, it would still fly and he would be able to land it safely.

Now who wouldn't have taken it at that level of experience?

Unfortunalty the unit failed on the takeoff roll and the end result is the video.

Yes the pilot didn't make very good decisions, but he probably got involved in risky shift and a willingness to please his new boss who is a known toe cutter.

Now can we get past this "took off" with a known failed turbo charger?

Alligator was the problem not the pilot.

RR69

10th Jun 2012, 11:32

RadioSaigon

10th Jun 2012, 11:59

I'd eat my hat if any pilot was that stupid...

...sauce with your hat?

:eek:

baron_beeza

10th Jun 2012, 12:10

Civil Aviation Safety Authority v Alligator Airways Pty Limited (No 3) [2012] FCA 601 (8 June 2012) (http://www.pmflegal.com/blog/index.php/2012/06/08/civil-aviation-safety-authority-v-alligator-airways-pty-limited-no-3-2012-fca-601-8-june-2012/)

28 April 2012 – Emergency landing aircraft VH-WOV

The last of the recent incidents relied on by CASA occurred on 28 April 2012 when the single engine Gippsland Aeronautics GA8TC Airvan registered VH-WOV carrying six fare paying passengers suffered a failure of its turbo charger. The failure was noticed by the pilot prior to take-off from Kununurra Airport but he still attempted takeoff. While the aircraft was able to become airborne it could not climb above 30 feet, and then suffered a further loss of power so that its height was about 5 to 10 feet. The pilot attempted to slowly return to the airport rather than landing in adjacent paddocks. It was difficult to do so because the aircraft could not easily be banked without risking a wing touching the ground. The pilot was eventually able to land the aircraft on the rough ground beside one of the taxi-ways at the airport.
Video footage of the flight taken by a passenger was admitted into evidence. It provided a chilling insight into the unfolding of this incident. The video showed that when finally about to land one wing of the aircraft came within about 2 feet of striking the ground.
Again, Alligator did not deny this concerning event. It did not attempt to argue that taking off in this aircraft was not a serious risk to air safety. Mr Street’s evidence was also that the pilot’s decision to attempt to return to the airfield rather than attempting an emergency landing straight ahead in the adjacent paddocks, involved an incredible risk.

Jabawocky

10th Jun 2012, 12:32

Turbo Scarecan needs minimum 38 inches for take off, he had 29 and still took off with plenty of rwy avail to pull up (probably by the first taxi way) and 2 gauges clearly showing the fact. When interviewed and asked why he did it he couldn't answer, he knew he needed min 38, took off with 29 - pilot error regardless of the maintenance issues that were at gator.

You can blame the pilot for sure, that goes without saying, however, the culture that allowed this kind of pilot error is clearly evident and that is a systemic problem wouldn't you say?

Going out on a limb here, but any pilot who thinks this way, clearly does not understand his powerplant. And why? Because PPL/CPL training contains no really valuable powerplant training. Sure some of you will argue this, but I doubt less than 1% can prove they actually received any, unless they went and learned it themselves. There is none, and CASA do not require any. The theory books are riddled with lies and crap, so what hope is there. I was a victim of this system too, just lucky it never cost me anything.

This outfit had Whyalla Airlines written all over it......sheer arse it did not have the same result.

The Green Goblin

10th Jun 2012, 12:45

I would also go out on a limb here.

Was he mixed fleet flying?

Did he fly the 207/210 also?

How many hours did he have in the can?

Was he taught to check manifold pressure? Or just firewall it and do the old "airspeed live, rpm stable, ts and ps green?

If he was mixed fleet flying and had flown a naturally aspirated aircraft prior that would probably make around 26 inches or so on takeoff (certainly kess than 29") was he seeing what he expected to see?

Did he realize there was an issue prior to rotation?

I doubt he would have committed to the takeoff if he had of realized what was happening.

The only reason I became conscious of manifold pressure in piston powered light aircraft was when I started flying PA31s. I wasn't neccesarily checking how much it was making but more that it wasn't over boosting. From memory it was around 46". I was more interested in the single piston powered days of RPM and how the aeroplane "felt".

At 200 hours I didn't really know what is was supposed to feel like, so alarm bells might not have been ringing and I may have been in the exact position this poor soul found himself in.

This is called experience. Hopefully the folks reading this, gain some from this example.

GedStreet

10th Jun 2012, 14:42

All were reported. It's on public record.

GedStreet

10th Jun 2012, 14:50

Yes, they had and have a Chief Pilot in place - me. And a brave man ready to take it and CASA on because he's been on the inside. He is not me.

Children, go to Federal Court, then stand in front of CASA dudettes for a day. Hold your head up high, afterwards... You have no idea.

Yet for the grace of God go You!

Stick together, be strong, together - they pick off the weak. Think - who is next?

expressinginterest

10th Jun 2012, 14:52

Might be a bit harsh on that call 'tmpffisch';
It's true people are human and we all make mistakes.
Zeroing in on an individual is dangerous.
Zero hour for him and he messed up, big whoop.
If you follow, think wisely about what you say...

Very very small industry..

:ok:

GedStreet

10th Jun 2012, 14:57

Let me put it this way: if you opened the throttle and didn't get the required power setting, what should you do? Close the throttle and taxi off... Insinuated commercial pressure or no pressure.

For God's sake lives were at stake! You, as Pilot in Command are responsible and the Chief Pilot's last line of defence to know you know your stuff and will defend your passengers as I strove to defend You.

I asked the PIC, what power setting do you require for takeoff. Answer, 38 Inches. Next question, what power setting did you have? 29 inches. Third question, why did you takeoff? ...No reply.

I re-checked his questionerre - yep, 38 inches. He knew also that 29 inches was our cruise power setting. Not even our climb setting - let alone takeoff.

He's a lovely guy.

CASA in Court challenged me - he didn't understand English. I said, you gave him a level 6 English pass - satisfying CASA that he did. Shot themselves in the foot.

You will read CASA findings in the future - they all represent CASA's point of view and defend only their case. In short, they are biassed. It has been interesting to see how they work, up close. Ask yourself, what tangible benefit has CASA given to safety, lately? I asked them for help - none!

CASA were determined that we would not sucseed. They told me at the CP interview that, "the easiest way for us (CASA) to stop an operation from flying is to remove the Chief Pilot" and that "we (CASA) may have handed you (me) a poisened chalice".

When the CASA machine's mind is made up - they have no choice but to take it all the way. Very few have enough money to prevail against all of your tax-payers dollars.

GedStreet

10th Jun 2012, 15:16

I am incredulous how you rumour networkers, hidden behind your pseudonims provarocate. Its easy when you hide.

Do not ever pretend to know what I think and did.

You can ask me: [email protected]

Re-publish it here, if you see fit, but better under your own name - it shows some professionalism.

Thank you.

GedStreet

10th Jun 2012, 15:19

Next.......?

jas24zzk

10th Jun 2012, 17:11

Thats almost a topic closer.

But i'll bite.

Very nice to see you threw one at CASA that they couldn't rebuke...a small victory for the lil guy.

I don't think anyone here has directly attacked your efforts as CP. More to the point is that they feel you never had the chance to effectively do the job you were employed to do. All of that is time based for 2 reasons, 1 you needed to appease CASA, 2 you needed to convert your employer so that you could appease CASA.

I don't think any future employer will take the Alligator experience as a negative on your resume. If they do, then they are dumb. Many earlier posts in this thread were positive to your appointment.

As for our 'rogue' pilot taking off without the turbo doing its job, I have to agree with Jabawocky. The pilot clearly did not understand what he should have seen on the MAP guage. This isn't the fault of the CP, as Jaba says, its a fault in our syllabus. The CPL syllabus and exams ask some questions about turbo's but they are generic, and the required learning BARELY tells you the truth. You can actually pass the exam without knowing the difference between turbocharged and turbo normalised. Just another CASA crock!. (pun intended)

That pilots flying, after he realised it had turned to crap, is sensational! Pure low flying, he kept his wits about him for a good result...plenty of guys about couldn't fly that!

GedStreet

10th Jun 2012, 17:30

Oh dear, that flight should have ceased on the runway - prior to any attempt at rotation.

Thank you for your support but - far out, i can't be in the co-pilot seat for all flights and that PIC had done a handsome number of flights for us before that day, 5+ hours with me too and a number of solo revenue flights, quite sucessfully.

Why did you take off - no reply...?

I'm as puzzled as you.

At our meeting, that evening the PIC got a ripple of applause from his fellow pilots. I said NO! You must realise how close this was to a disaster. It wasn't clever. It wasn't good flying - it never should have happened.

Airmanship appears to be dead.

GedStreet

10th Jun 2012, 17:45

Oh and that wasn't the only one I threw for the lil guy.

Kicking goals from the back line was our Solicitors comment and, cogent and compelling was the Judges comment on my testimony. Very well defended, he went on to say but he couldn't be held to account for letting Alligator fly again.

A consevative judgement. He did not want to be accused of being brave.

baron_beeza

10th Jun 2012, 20:49

Thanks for the various replies Ged. I have never worked in Kununurra but have been involved in GA in the surrounding regions.
I have also plied my trade about the world and been a junior pilot in NZ, Africa and the Pacific regions. As a LAME/ Chief Engineer in many other parts of the world I have also seen first hand how some of these companies end up trying to operate.

We can all see you have been through hell and back. Not one person on this forum has knocked your name, - I think to the contrary you have attracted much admiration for your approach.

I realise the media reporting and even the court events may not be entirely accurate as we view them.
You were a brave man taking that task on and I now realise you had little support in your role. My experiences have been that the Chief Engineer is not beyond laying down the law... to any within yelling distance. That would be junior pilots, Chief Pilot, Ops Manager, owner and even the regulators.
You at Alligator were missing that vital back-up.

There will be many young pilots reading this. There will also be others in GA that will also be learning and hopefully relating events to their own personal circumstances. Something positive has to come out of this mess.

Many of the NZ'ers here will remember United Aviation at Palmerston North.
For me this is a major case of deja vu. Their demise was in 1997 and was brought about with the loss of a Baron and pilot.

The accident/death/Police/manslaughter scenario is very real...... some here have been through the process before. Some more than once.

I believe you were lucky to have been spared that on 28th April.

The Australian regs are not the easiest in the world, the regulators perhaps not the friendliest or most helpful about.
If nothing else there is an industry protocol and most companies and participants within the industry can live with that.

My plea here is to get across to inexperienced pilot's that you are not engineers... You have no knowledge, or right, to declare a U/S aircraft fit for flight.

The system is there for everyone's safety. The video is a classic example of what can happen when things do go off the rails.
That one flight cost many people a lot of money.

It could have been a whole lot worse.

RadioSaigon

11th Jun 2012, 02:50

Comprehensive replies Ged, thanks. I concur, you can't be in the copilot's seat for every flight, the pilot must bear some responsibility for the events of the day. As you state, he was able to verbalise and record on training documents the MP he should have expected to see that day -but still persisted with an attempted departure despite the obvious shortcomings in performance. Those that suggest "mixed-fleet" flying as a defense/excuse... puhleeze! The pilot would have been approved to fly that (turbocharged) aircraft as well as any normally aspirated airframes and would have been well aware of the differences in performance of the turbocharged airframe. On turbo'd airframes I have flown, you will comfortably hold the aircraft on toe/park brakes up to about 29"MP... but once the turbo kicks in, she's going somewhere, regardless of what restraint you have trying to hold her. It just ain't possible to mistake the difference between a functioning or non-functioning turbo.
The suggestion posted earlier that "the aircraft will still fly without the turbo" (or words to that effect) I believe may refer to an aircraft already airborne (in the cruise?) at the point of turbo/waste-gate failure -assuming of course that the failure is not catastrophic, throwing red-hot bits of high-velocity metal all over the place. Certainly not a "take it flying without the turbocharger" situation.
Those suggesting this was a "soft" failure -wow, I just don't get your reasoning. There's not a great deal more attention-getting than an airframe not performing to expectation under full-power conditions IMO. I have aborted a departure in a BN2 with a 2-3" discrepancy in MP between the engines at full throttle once. It could have been attributed to instrument discrepancy in an old airframe, but she didn't sound/feel right. BB probably remembers that incident -it turned out to be a carb-air box that had worked its way loose. Another time a former CP aborted on a very short runway with a full load under similar circumstances, also in a BN2. That time it was a mag-switch failure. If something doesn't feel right, sort it out!!! Your arse is a pretty good indicator of trouble -as well as being what you are putting at-risk (as well as any others attached to your airframe) if you don't.

Keep up the good work Ged, fight the good fight. I believe there is beaucoup industry support for you, personally and professionally, not to mention sympathy for the circumstances thrust upon you.

NIK320

11th Jun 2012, 03:17

Those suggesting this was a "soft" failure -wow, I just don't get your reasoning.
The term 'soft' failure is just a way of saying partial system failure.
The engine was still producing partial power. Not enough for takeoff, but in flight it would have at the very least given you more forced landing site options.

The Green Goblin

11th Jun 2012, 03:31

RS, I agree with your sound reasoning and yes, some pretty poor form was displayed.

However, to defend the indefensible he had less than 20 hours on type. He probably didn't know enough to know it didn't feel right. When did he look at the MP? Once airborne?

From a turbocharged background I always waited to feel the surge as the turbochargers boosted up before checking the MP. Did he know enough to know it didn't feel right? Was he expected issues with the waste gate?

There is more to this than just the plain old blame the pilot for being a unit.

I commend Ged for the effort he put in, but CASA had already written alligators history. With or without Ged the end result would have been the same.

RadioSaigon

11th Jun 2012, 03:32

I'm aware of the definition of a "soft" failure NIK320, but thanks... however my point remains, there was nothing "soft" abut this failure under discussion IMO.

baron_beeza

11th Jun 2012, 04:04

I have to ask GG. What is the primary display of power indication in a constant speed equipped aircraft ?

In any take-off the pilot has to be satisfied the engine is making power.

This engine most certainly was not and he would have been well aware that the aircraft was still on the ground at the normal lift-off point.

So not only did he ignore the available instrumentation but he chose not to abort the take-off and instead persevere with what he had available.

He was very lucky to get off as lightly as he did.

Battle of Britain - You can teach monkeys... - YouTube

Alligator representatives at the hearing said they could not defend the indefensible. The judge did not believe removing the pilot from flying was the fix to some of the culture issues.

The Green Goblin

11th Jun 2012, 04:12

Obviously the MP BB.

Look, I'm not saying the pilot is an angel, I'm saying he was/is inexperienced.

Thankfully he wasn't flying an Airbus A320 while he learnt this lesson hey :D

Jabawocky

11th Jun 2012, 05:25

Look, I'm not saying the pilot is an angel, I'm saying he was/is inexperienced.

Thankfully he wasn't flying an Airbus A320 while he learnt this lesson hey :D

GG

You could start a whole new thread on that topic alone.

thorn bird

11th Jun 2012, 06:08

"CASA were determined that we would not sucseed. They told me at the CP interview that, "the easiest way for us (CASA) to stop an operation from flying is to remove the Chief Pilot" and that "we (CASA) may have handed you (me) a poisened chalice".

Ged,
would you say now, from your experience with CASA and the way they operate, it is a classic example of why you'd be out of your mind to accept a chief pilots position under the current regime in CASA??
Who the hell would trust a back stabber.
The Skull has form for that, "star chamber" and all.

Denys

11th Jun 2012, 06:43

Hi Guys,
I am Denys Sergieiev, pilot of WOV on the april 28th.
I don't want to make excuses, just want to clarify some things.

About my smile on video, I was in shock till the rest of the day this is uncontrollable reaction.
I didn't know that something wrong with aeroplane before I applied full power on the runway.
Yes I did have a time to abort take off, this mistake looks incredibly simple and my action incredibly stupid, but you know facts what you don't know is the emotions attached to this decision. Unfortunately ability to resist emotions only comes with experience which I didn't have. At the time I believed that I can go with 29 inches and I was under pressure to go because flight was delayed by two hours and after that I had another one.
I know that I did wrong and no excuses for me.
Do I suffer after this? Yes I do, and it will be with me till the rest of my days.
Did I learn from this? Yes I did. This is kind of lesson which you don't want to learn hard way.
But life is going on and I can't just lie and die regretting about what happened.
I determined to continue flying and be much safer pilot than I was before.

tmpffisch

11th Jun 2012, 08:28

Denys,

Good on you for jumping on and standing up for yourself, it's clearly worked well for Ged as well. As I have said, I was quite shocked at your physical response after the incident, and I do apologise as I hadn't considered it was due to shock.

I hope all new pilots have followed the Alligator saga, or will hear about it in years to come, as there are so many lessons to be learned.

baron_beeza

11th Jun 2012, 08:50

Hi Denys. Welcome to the forum and it must have been a gruelling first up post for you.

As you have no doubt gathered, several of the pilots here think you are extremely lucky in a way that you didn't write yourself, the plane and the pax off.

You seem convinced that you could go with 29 ", - that is the problem with an operation where local rules start getting made. Bar talk and hearsay can start over-riding the manuals.

You are not alone in doing something incredibly stupid.. yours was just so dangerous and public that it was the final straw in bringing down an airservice operator.
Many operations fail after a crash, the publicity and loss of confidence by the public means that the revenue loss is unacceptable.
I can rattle of a string of names of junior pilots who have not only killed themselves but often their passengers and the company in the process.

You were very fortunate in a way.. then again if was mortified to see Ged report your fellow pilots' take on the events.

At our meeting, that evening the PIC got a ripple of applause from his fellow pilots. I said NO! You must realise how close this was to a disaster. It wasn't clever. It wasn't good flying - it never should have happened.

Airmanship appears to be dead.

Perhaps it could have happened to a number of your peers.... you may have just been the unlucky one in the batch.

Some of you guys need a cranky Chief Engineer to ream you out..
;)

You will soon stop the cavalier approach to defects and the reporting of same.

The moment that engine did not get above 30" on the take-off the aircraft was no longer airworthy.

I have never bought into the argument that a 200 hour pilot has not got the experience to realise that. The rules are very clear and it is not difficult to teach.

RadioSaigon

11th Jun 2012, 09:25

Greetings Denys

That took guts -logging on here & posting as you have. Well done. On viewing the video, I understood the nature of your smile. I don't think that there are many that would have reacted significantly differently when faced with a similarly trying situation, whilst maintaining a semblance of 'professionalism' for the fare-paying punters in the immediate aftermath...

I understand only too well the pressures you perceived and given the obvious culture of the organisation stemming from the owner/ops manager/chief engineer, it's a wonder that the organisation escaped without fatalities.

At least you kept your head and kept it together upon realising the seriousness of the situation you were in, but true Professionalism would have meant that you never got into that situation in the 1st place. You would have aborted the departure immediately on realising you were not developing full rated power. I personally don't believe a scan of the engine instruments is necessary for that -your arse would have told you 1st- and a brief scan of the instruments confirmed what you already knew.

I'm confident you have learned a lesson from all this -admittedly a harsh lesson, but one you'll never forget. I hope that your dealings with the regulator are not excessively harsh. I respect your determination to continue in aviation and wish you all the best.

Denys

11th Jun 2012, 09:55

Thanks guys for the warm words.
During my training instructor told me "don't listen what people say do what law says"
but I didn't get this lesson. Now I did. And will remember it.
I really feel sorry for my passengers, they trusted me their lives and I had no right taking any risks.
I am happy that I still alive and surprisingly for many others I want to fly much more than I did before and I want to be the safest pilot.
This incident completely changed my view of flying and valuables in life and I can only regret that I didn't think like that before.
Thank you for reading this I feel much better now.

Checkboard

11th Jun 2012, 10:27

The worse thing that happened on that flight was having someone with a camera. :rolleyes:

In these days of camera phones, everyone has a camera, and film & pictures get every righteous second guesser under the sun crawling out of the woodwork. Ask poor old John Quadrio. http://www.pprune.org/dg-p-general-aviation-questions/467879-paul-phelan-s-latest.html

Before cameras - it's a minor incident and learning experience.

After cameras - it becomes a major incident and career attack.

SpyderPig

11th Jun 2012, 11:42

Denys I must say well done for logging on and posting about this, not many people would have the courage to do so.

As a low hour CPL I can understand that at the time you were under the pump and perhaps didnt have a clear mind to make a reject decision with things seemingly piling up on you, as said these things come with experience.

I like to think I would have rejected the take off, but I wasnt there that day and Im not you. As for the outcome personally Ive learnt from your mistake as Im sure you have. I hope your career dosnt take to large of a hit and you can move on.

I had friends waiting on a start at Gator when this happened, their demise is sad news for all indeed.

The Green Goblin

11th Jun 2012, 12:06

So the lessons we have learned from this?

There is no black and white, just shades of gray.
Don't judge your fellow aviators, unless ou yourself are perfect.
But for the grace of god go I.
If it can happen, it probably will.
The regs are written in other peoples blood.
Learn to say no.
When being rushed, slow down.
Experience is often gained the hard way.

Denys, I wish you well with your career. If I see you around I'll be happy to buy you a beer. Dont give up and when questioned in future interviews about this, don't rationalize or make excuses. Admit you were low time, inexperienced and made the wrong decision. And most importantly you have learned from it. I'd hire you over another clean skin. I know you wont make the same mistake again. I couldn't guarantee the clean skin wouldn't.

I'd also keep in touch with Ged. He's a good guy and while most probably pretty pissed at the whole affair, is more than happy to give you a second chance.

baron_beeza

11th Jun 2012, 22:40

I am still not sure how grey 'The aircraft is unserviceable, it does not have a valid C of A' is.....

As for standing up for yourself. Most certainly... more-so in this industry than others.

I have had to remove myself from the workplace on at least two occasions when I thought it was getting too risky, ie go home for some hours, weeks.
Once I said I would only come back when a certain customer had removed his aircraft from the hangar.
Another time I was asked to remove myself from the work place for my views.
So three entirely seperate events....
In each case there was a fatal accident shortly thereafter.
Yep... it is not difficult to see who is about to kill themselves, (or have the boss and his methods kill them), the idea is to put as much distance between yourself and the accident as possible.

Looking for a new job is nothing compared to standing before the courts.. some of my workmates ended up facing manslaughter charges.

Is it possible that Denys was 2' from it also ?

Never ever tolerate dodgy operators...
It is just not worth it.

You haven't lived until you have done a week in an African jail...

Denys

12th Jun 2012, 03:07

Speaking of getting a new job, I really need one.
CASA told me that they have no intentions to cancel or suspend my licence.
If you know where to get one please let me know ;)

glenb

12th Jun 2012, 10:37

Denys,

Take my hat off to you for your attitude to your career, and you determination to improve yourself. However my advice would be to avoid at all costs getting involved in this forum and discussing the incident. Admitting liability or mistakes on a public forum may come back to bite you. Say nothing to people who are not directly involved in it. Pprune really isn't the forum to be discussing this issue. The nature of this industry is that what appear to be people with your interests at heart can quickly turn, or you can be manipulated by people with far more experience than yourself.

Good luck and your attitude will hopefully take you far in the industry. Good luck.

Mach E Avelli

13th Jun 2012, 09:28

Denys, I am no longer in a hiring and firing position, but if I were, I would hire you in a heartbeat. The lessons you learned and the way you have 'fessed up should make any Chief Pilot consider you for a job.
Just be sure at any interview that you do 'fess up' and tell the whole story, warts and all. If he doesn't hire you because of this one mistake so early in your career, he is the di!ckhead, not you.
Oh, and despite all you did wrong, bloody good handling to nurse it around the circuit the way you did. Plenty others would have stacked it.
And further - you did not bring Alligator down. They were fcuk'd anyway.
Re the other comments here from/to the outgoing Chief Pilot.
CASA have been known to admit that that they are handing an incoming Chief Pilot a 'poisoned chalice'. It has happened to me and it seems that it may have happened at Alligator as well.
It bothers me that CASA approve Chief Pilots with almost indecent haste when they bloody KNOW that said Chief Pilot has no hope of fulfilling that very first part of the relevant CAO 82.xx (whatever-it-is) i.e. 'having complete control of....' blah blah. Until CASA require Chief Pilots to have a budget allocated with signatory powers to spend what it takes to be compliant, we will forever have Alligator situations. Rant over.

dreamer84

13th Jun 2012, 13:52

Fascinating read. Sad for all the people that have lost jobs. Ged won't have a clue who I am but flew with him on a 2 hour Nav in a DA20 about 6 years ago. That 2 hours were more valuable than the 40 odd prior to that I'd spent with pimply faced teenagers 'teaching' me how to fly.

I'd also like to say well done to the pilot; your mistakes on the day have been well documented but your willingness to come forward and admit your errors is very encouraging. Good luck, I hope you find work again. As stated, your willingness to step forward and take it on the chin is endearing and hopefully you use this as an opportunity, not a burden, going forward.

Lots of great CRM material here! All the best to everyone involved.

blackhand

13th Jun 2012, 19:40

CASA have been known to admit that that they are handing an incoming Chief Pilot a 'poisoned chalice'.
That's a it of a 'loaded dog' situation for CASA and the incoming CP, either way I can see ethical issues for both.

Mach E Avelli

14th Jun 2012, 02:51

Ethical issues? Sure. But the incoming CP (if he is from outside the organization) can only go on what the Directors or CEO tell him. Usually there is a warm fuzzy feeling at that early stage of the romance. The Operator is often on notice from CASA that they need to clean up their act and getting a new Chief Pilot seems to be everyone's quick solution. Not that they will ever admit this.
Due diligence on the part of the wannabe CP could involve asking around or even trawling Pprune for a "feeling", but short of getting insider info from the Company's financiers, creditors and CASA (which involves yet more ethical problems) there is not much one can do.
My last two gigs I asked to see the Company's most recent CASA audit results. In one case I was fed an old audit from much earlier days, and in the other there were great chunks missing which I only found later.
CASA go through certain motions to 'approve' Chief Pilots but in reality just want a fall guy. Ditto the CEO and Directors - they all want a CP who can paper over the cracks (at no cost, of course) and take the heat if CASA come knocking.
As for training - what training? The Check & Training Manual will be full of high ideals but I have yet to see one fully complied with. Most of these tin-pot outfits grudgingly allow instrument rating and base checks to be done on Company dollars, but only if they are kept to absolutely minimal time. CASA really need to get out more and observe training as it is wrote.
How about it CASA? Pick a candidate and sit in on a full line training programme from day one to final check-to-line. Ensure all those pretty boxes on the form really do get covered before being ticked off.
Then maybe guys would really understand their maintenance reporting responsibilities, systems and performance limitations etc - which brought on this thread in the first place.

RR69

14th Jun 2012, 09:34

This is gold... "learnt more from Ged in 2 hours than I did in 40 with others etc" Was he asleep, he always is when I fly with him, prick won't even do the radios for me!

His head is big enough as it is without this stuff, luckily most of his mates and students can't read otherwise it would be worse...

Just kidding, he's not bad, but please don't put it in writing, he's sitting here reading this stuff with a big silly grin on his face when he's supposed to be cooking us dinner and cleaning my house!!!

GedStreet

14th Jun 2012, 10:09

Hi again everyone, just so you know, I was a CP of 3 companies prior to the Gator for a combined period of at least 11 years (I was in all cases prior, CFI and ATO too) so I knew what I was looking for...

I was CP of Gator for just on 10 months - never asked for the job, a 'particular' CASA FOI fingered me to do it even though we had a qualified applicants CP application in at CASA and that candidate was on-site too.

Pilots said, its so good since Ged took over at the Gator, I don't need to take no-doze any more. (!)

I came out of an airline, knew where CASA will have every GA charter company go, and set the Gator on that road. It is my feeling that CASA had to execute their end game when they did because I was making too many compliance improvements for their liking and I was weakening their 'case'.

They cited incidents and accusations dating back almost 4 years and encompassing at least 3 previous Chief Pilots and strongly accusational towards 'Engineering' under a number of Chief Engineers and LAME's. Difficult to fix all this in 10 months. And there was until very near the end a pervasive culture amongst old 'Gator pilots to cling onto the old ways, because you'll get more hours. Hours was what it was all about in the past...

Bear in mind, CASA has not directly brought the demise of the Gator - Westpac did.

Denys, I too would employ you again. You are mature, efficient, funny and fun. We all have lapses. Thank goodness you or I haven't killed anyone during any of ours. Good luck and, do keep in touch mate. And, to all - safety is YOUR responsibility; never turn your back on it!

In the mean time, any pruners got a job for me?

GedStreet

14th Jun 2012, 10:41

And I would like to say a heart felt thank you for all the support. I am deeply moved and thankful that I have been able to help you soar!

I am humbled...

Ah, now it seems, I have to go and finish dinner for RR69. Ho hum, good to be useful! ;-)

(I was never asleep when training RR69... Too scared! Although I did have my eyes closed when I sent him 1st solo! (He's still got the certificate in a frame on his bookshelf. *Note to self - must dust that tomorrow and change prune callsign to 'Cinderella')). ;-)

Towering Q

15th Jun 2012, 03:24

This whole saga reminds me of the old saying...."In aviation, you start out with a full bag of luck and an empty bag of experience. It is essential to fill the bag of experience before emptying the bag of luck!"

GedStreet

15th Jun 2012, 04:40

Well, it seems like I'm a bit of a hot potato as judged by Industry. Too hot to handle. Well, you know me, in for a penny, in for a pound!

I have just re-read this whole thread (no job, you see) and had to come to the conclusion, yes Pruners, you are right. CASA does read every word of this! I spent a day being grilled by CASA (after I had said it all in Federal Court anyway) and many of their questions were almost verbatim from here. Yes, few original thinkers in CASA. When they asked me who I had put in charge when I went on holiday oveseas I said I hadn't been overseas in 30 years. And I though to myself, where did that come from? Reading back, yes I was making plans to go o/s but you, CASA kept me too busy. I never got that holiday so I was telling the truth and there was no need for that sideways glance at one another when I said that. I wasn't lying but you must have thought I was!

Pruners too, please be so careful. Many of CASA's questons were based on your speculatons here. Speculation without basis in fact can be very damaging. CASA take it as Gospel and I have been able to tell you contrary facts behind some of your specualtions. Please, I'll ask again, be careful. Lives and livelihoods are at stake based on what you write here. Making an accusation - ok, but be SURE that accusation is based in fact.

At the end of the CASA interview I was asked, "Is there anything you wold like to say to CASA?" I said "Yes, I am very dissapointed in my dealings with CASA and I am particularly dissapointed in you, Mr {_}|€¥. when I heard you were involved in our case, I thought great, I can work with you but I am saddened to say that I feel you stonewalled and stood in the way of my attempts to achieve real safety outcomes at Alligator". I noticed, they didn't write that bit down... Maybe they'll be able to read it now.

So, any brave souls out there willing to offer me a job - I can send you my resume. Drop me a line at [email protected]

If you check 'whois' you will see I have owned the domain name nextchairmanofcasa.com for some time - If Dick Smith can do it (he and I locked horns then) anyone can. Maybe I'd better get some steam under that idea. CASA could sure do with a shake up and some transprency and accountability for their actions.

In the mean time RR69's house is looking pretty good and dinner was wonderful! We're having a few beers tonight, all (locals) welcome! Email me if you don't have RR69's address.

Thought du jour: Aviation is a marathon, not a sprint.

NzCaptainAndrew

15th Jun 2012, 05:01

Whats the minimum req for a job at Alligator?

GedStreet

15th Jun 2012, 05:03

Currently, about $10,000,000.00.

Oh, and that's $AU, Andrew - not $NZ.

jas24zzk

15th Jun 2012, 08:09

Ged,
I think you owe a few of us a can of screen clean for that one! :D

Kharon

15th Jun 2012, 08:23

Is causing projectile vomiting legal - if it is then it shoudn't be.

Bloody Ada.

GedStreet

15th Jun 2012, 10:58

Oh come oooonnnnn! It was a joke! It appears Andy didn't get it either...

;-)

Kharon

15th Jun 2012, 21:36

I have managed to clean my screen, my disappointment will keep for another day.

GS - CASA were determined that we would not succeed. They told me at the CP interview that, "the easiest way for us (CASA) to stop an operation from flying is to remove the Chief Pilot" and that "we (CASA) may have handed you (me) a poisoned chalice". A CP 'interview' is not a tea and bickies, feel good, fuzzy mutual stroking exercise. A potential CP would have more than a vague inkling that there was 'trouble at mill' before walking in. A seasoned CP would have come away from the meeting with at least two important pieces of paper.

1) An agreed written list of all the issues which were causing anxiety, signed by both parties. Including the alleged 'poisoned chalice' remarks.

This list is then studied by the CP and formatted into a time line, in order of priority detailing the proposed method of 'sorting' the perceived areas of discontent and the milestones. Handled a bit like a RCA.

2) Then at the second meeting with the FOI responsible a 'ways and means' agreement is hammered out and formalised. The local CASA manager needs to add an approval to this proposal and if warranted, agree to some additional surveillance. CASA may not be legally entitled to mentor or assist but they can survey and audit the crap out that puppy.

Thus armed the CP then invites the Operator and CASA to an Indaba. Here the agreed process is explained in detail and the operator's cooperation is ensured. Then can the CP go to work; stick to the process, meet the deadlines and engage CASA to sign off every milestone. With skill, determination and a little self generated luck it should be smiles all around within 3 months of kick off.

If not, there is an iron clad defence available against any change of heart by either the operator or the authority. Instead of this valiant but doomed charade:-

GS - Kicking goals from the back line was our Solicitors comment and, cogent and compelling was the Judges comment on my testimony. Very well defended, he went on to say but he couldn't be held to account for letting Alligator fly again. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/pukey.gif
Being a CP means just a little more than looking pretty and making the right noises, you have to mean it; as you can see from this sorry episode - business, jobs, the community and almost several lives are hanging in the balance.

It's why they get the big bucks – right.

Steam off.

Rollingthunder

15th Jun 2012, 21:41

And probably livery to suit

GedStreet

15th Jun 2012, 22:50

Kharon,

Did you not read back either?

.... (CASA) tiiiiiimes, they are a' changin'!

I had a traditional view of CASA once too! Now, everyone, look out!

And I don't think it's just 1 FOI (who is known, far and wide) pushing his A/Regional Manager around. Although that is a possible scenario.

Kharon, have you stood in Fed Court against them?

God, why are you faceless Pruners sucking me in?

Rant over! I gotta go and paint - earn some coin.

blackhand

16th Jun 2012, 00:53

Kharon, have you stood in Fed Court against them?

Only in his fantasy world

LeadSled

16th Jun 2012, 03:01

Blackhand,

If Kharon is who I think he is, he has had a lot of experience as a CP, both with Scheduled and Non-Scheduled operation within and without Australia ----- and knows the CASA (and predecessors) shortcomings (as the industry in general sees it) all too well.

And ( as it often says in the "rules") "for the absence of doubt", he has never been charged, let alone convicted, of an aviation offense.

Tootle pip!!

Kharon

16th Jun 2012, 08:31

GS - Did you not read back either? Ged: Believe me, I have, in shed loads forwards and backwards attempting to make some sense of the current ethos we are forced to work in.

I apologise if my comments have caused you any offence; I assure you they were not directed at you personally or your short administration of Alligator. I was trying to illustrate that the CP position is not now (if it ever was) a 'safe' sinecure, but a high risk blood sport in which you play without a safety net, or a 'box'.

The 'new' CP needs to be every bit as ruthless and cunning as the opposition; and, make no mistake "they" are the enemy within, not me mate; not by a long shot.

jas24zzk

16th Jun 2012, 10:51

I made my last comment in as much jest, as the comment I was replying to. Sad fact is, Ged's jesting comment is probably close to the truth.

Kharon, I am an avid reader of your amblings. The knowledge you impart here is invaluable. :D

I'd hazard a guess, that Ged was fully versed in his responsibilities. The problem I see, is the 'poisoned chalice' remark. CAsA were after the owner, no matter who was the CP, or how well they were doing.

To my simple mind, CAsA would be working through the underlying issues with the new CP (i.e fixing the sh*t) and also working with him/her as new ones came up. It strikes me that CAsA were simply awaiting an incident they could ground the company, and hopefully send it broke as a means of securing a safety outcome. It didn't matter how good the CP was, sometime, someone in the company was going to make a mistake, and that was always going to be the end of the chapter. So much for having a pro-active CP that they should be WORKING WITH.

As you say Kharon, CAsA are not interested in promoting safety, merely prosecuting lack of safety. In the words of the RVAC president, "it's inevitable" a mistake will be made. CAsA are not interested in fixing that sort of things with a company...shutting it down produces a faster result.

But does it really?

The loss of alligator, removes a service. A service that makes money. So you can guarantee that there will be one or more startup operators to replace alligator. So now CAsA has to start again with appointment of people, implentation of handbooks etc etc etc.

So they start again, beating down the same path.

stoopid mofo's.