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bean
10th Jul 2011, 23:56
Just discovred this.

YouTube - ‪Vickers Vanguard lands at Brooklands -- The incredible story‬‏

Seems they were quite lucky

Agaricus bisporus
11th Jul 2011, 01:26
Seems they were quite lucky

Hmmm.

Yes, in several more ways than one methinks.
And more by luck than judgement too.

JW411
11th Jul 2011, 16:42
Agaricus Bisporus:

"more by luck than judgement"

So, you would have done much better obviously?

They only had about 800 metres left to land on at Brooklands (discounting obstacles) so Perf A had long gone out the window.

The pair of them practiced at EMA until they figured that they could do it. It was always going to be a "one way" landing and the aircraft was never ever going to fly again. It was always going to be a finely judged exercise and, unlike you, who was always going to get it perfect, they hit the undershoot but stopped very safely in the distance available.

It was a great pleasure in my life to have served in the Royal Air Force with Pete Moore and his lovely wife Sallie.

Sadly, we had to say farewell to Pete on 14 January 2011 in St Matthew's Church, Worthington.

At least the museum ended up with an intact Vanguard and Pete enjoyed his last Vanguard flight hugely.

JW411
11th Jul 2011, 17:06
Having thought about it for a bit; did the "experts" at Brooklands advise the crew that they had left several lethal holes just short of the threshold? If not, why not?

The obvious question is "why did they not fill them in" as the CAA would no doubt have required.

2 sheds
11th Jul 2011, 20:04
What exactly would have been the problem with filling the holes with concrete - or at least with soil compacted the same as the surrounding area? Also, there seem to be numerous bodies being permitted to hang around dangerously close to the runway edge.

2 s

bingofuel
11th Jul 2011, 21:02
Temporary steel plates over the holes may have been a prudent idea?

Flash2001
12th Jul 2011, 20:23
Just a quick question. How much damage would hitting a hole have done? How much of the aircraft's weight would be on the mains when it crossed the hole? The wheel would have spent about a tenth of a second unsupported; how much could the oleo mechanism have extended it during that time? Add to that the very small amount that the aircraft would have descended over the 10ft (Looks like) diameter of the hole. The same hole would have been a far more serious hazard later in the landing run.

After this excellent landing you could have used the airplane again!

SpringHeeledJack
12th Jul 2011, 21:40
I too, had wondered about why they didn't put temporary steel plates over the holes like wot they do in NYC. Plays havoc with the car tyres though....The landing was pretty damned good all things considered, easy to be 20/20 after the event. Did the VC-10 have the same length to land on or was it before the Vanguard ?



SHJ

Jhieminga
13th Jul 2011, 09:12
Did the VC-10 have the same length to land on or was it before the Vanguard ?
The VC10 landed there in 1987, long before the Vanguard, and back then the full runway was still available.

The AvgasDinosaur
25th Jul 2011, 19:19
Great bit of flying. Does anyone still have the final CVR ??
Would make interesting and historic listening.
Be lucky
David

avionic type
26th Jul 2011, 00:09
Regret that the CVR ,FDR,and tech log were removed from the aircraft after it landed at Brooklands as the CAA demanded that these were kept by the operator for we believe 5 years after the aircraft is withdrawn from service it is now 15 years since it landed and Huntings have now stopped flying their own aircraft so where they are now ?they could have been rubbed clean and reused or sold as scrap otherwise the aircraft was complete

scotbill
11th Aug 2011, 07:41
The massive props on the Vanguard had an important role in stopping. In a strong headwind Ground Idle alone was like running into the proverbial brick wall.
Normal landing technique was to flare before closing the throttles to preserve airflow over the elevators. However, if you were brave enough to close the throttles first (and were ready for the subsequent heave) the landing distance could be shortened considerably.

tristar 500
11th Aug 2011, 15:03
scotbil said
The massive props on the Vanguard had an important role in stopping. In a strong headwind Ground Idle alone was like running into the proverbial brick wall.
Normal landing technique was to flare before closing the throttles to preserve airflow over the elevators. However, if you were brave enough to close the throttles first (and were ready for the subsequent heave) the landing distance could be shortened considerably.

My question is how did you get round the flight fine pitch stop which was locked in position until the weight on wheels (squat) switch was made??

tristar 500

scotbill
11th Aug 2011, 16:05
You may have misunderstood me.
Didn't suggest you could get into Ground Idle in flight - just flight idle before the flare was considered daring enough!

Norma Stitz
18th Aug 2011, 20:23
Firstly, JW411, sorry to hear of Peter Moore's passing.

Secondly, as it was I that drove Peter to inspect said 'hole' that very day after the landing, it was an unfortunate hole in the proverbial Swiss cheese; mutli-layered management (museum full-time staff and volunteers included) which took the belief that all of the tree holes had been filled. Both practice approaches were spot on for the concrete, though on the final approach the aircraft contacted the grass south of the road onto the road surface, then bounced onto the grass on the northern edge and then onto the runway.

As others have pointed out, this hole was actually one of many obstacles of flying such an aircraft into a small strip. The numbers of folk commented upon by Two Sheds were under strict control, either being escorted press or those with a need to be there; even in the 1990s there was such a thing as risk management. Of course by today's standards, it's unlikely the such an operation would be approved - the last flight of the Vimy in 2009 being a case in point.

Having been there, seen it and felt HUNTING SUPERB as she thundered to a halt that day, it was a privilege to have been part of it and 16 years later can still assure you that the preparation and execution was as safe as it could have been.

corsair
19th Aug 2011, 17:17
the CAA demanded that these were kept by the operator for we believe 5 years after the aircraft is withdrawn from service it is now 15 years since it landed and Huntings have now stopped flying their own aircraft so where they are now ?Perhaps someone should contact Air Contractors as Hunting was later renamed and check if they're still available either in East Midlands or Dublin?

I worked for Hunting Cargo Airlines at the time and had the privilege of looking around G-APEP while it was on the ramp in Dublin airport one day in 1996. I had it all to myself for half an hour. So took the opportunity to inhale the old aeroplane smell while sitting in the Captain's seat and having a good look through the manuals. What tales it could tell if it could talk.

I had hoped to organise a flight in it but it retired before that could happen. A visit to Brooklands to see has long been on my list of to dos.

Craggenmore
21st Aug 2011, 06:22
Life before bull**** health and safety.

Great stuff and thanks for sharing the vid.

avionic type
22nd Aug 2011, 00:43
Sorry Corsair but I dont think that they exist any longer for unless the plane was involved in an accident or incident there is no reason to keep them after the required time, as we used to say "there is very little sentiment in civil aviation "[except for Huntings NOT selling the plane for scrap ]and they were old technology later a/c had better systems and were not compatable

Props
22nd Aug 2011, 16:02
GAPEP was flown from Wisley to Heathrow on13th December1961
Airborne 1610 landed 1710.to start BEA service.
I was in the Right Hand Seat. We had on bord a new bit of kit called a Transponder thats why the flight lasted one hour so ATC could play with us.,

tristar 500
22nd Aug 2011, 19:47
Props, you have private mail

tristar 500

Perth Retired
23rd Feb 2012, 04:50
Anyone know how I could contact Gary West, who was part of this great crew? Many thanks, Mike

tristar 500
23rd Feb 2012, 15:46
Question is why?

Send me a PM & I will talk to you.

tristar500

Perth Retired
26th Feb 2012, 09:02
As requested - done!

Proplinerman
16th Aug 2012, 17:32
Here's a scan of an original Vickers-commissioned artist's impression, from the mid-to-late 1950s, of then as yet uncompleted Vanguard, in flight. Quite a rarity I think and I was very pleased to buy this recently at an aviation fair.

Vanguard, original artist's impression, in flight, from late 1950s e | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/48975048@N06/7796126466/in/photostream)

Such a shame the Vanguard came on the scene just as passengers were going mad for jets, stunting its sales to just 43.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
16th Aug 2012, 19:14
Here's a crackin' good read whose characters include the world's last airworthy Vanguard (or 'Vickers Vibrator', as we who flew it christened it):

The Damocles Plot

Is that available in print? I don't do Kindling except to use it in locomotive fireboxes to light up.

Proplinerman
17th Aug 2012, 13:18
"The Damocles plot" appears only to be available on Kindle-which I don't do either, but I did use the services of a "book finder" some years ago, so if I can track him down (tho he's probably been put out of business by now by Amazon), I'll set him the task of finding a print version. I will revert if he/I succeed.

Ref the "Vickers Vibrator:" you're probably right Discorde, but from the perspective of a child (which I was when I flew several times on Vanguards in the 1960s), it always seemed to me to be a powerful, smooth, quiet, comfortable aircraft which, moreover, made a lovely "purring" sound both inside and out-I'm also a cat lover incidentally. And those huge windows were fantastic for a child!

To hear the sound of the Vanguard's Tynes again, click on this link:

Vanguard engines running - YouTube

Discorde
17th Aug 2012, 17:30
"The Damocles plot" appears only to be available on Kindle-which I don't do either, but I did use the services of a "book finder" some years ago, so if I can track him down (tho he's probably been put out of business by now by Amazon), I'll set him the task of finding a print version. I will revert if he/I succeed.

'Damocles' was never published in print form. It can be read on a PC using (free) Kindle For PC software, though you do have to set up an account with Amazon to access it.

Is that available in print? I don't do Kindling except to use it in locomotive fireboxes to light up.

Here's an excerpt (http://steemrok.com/F935ch13exc) from 'Flight 935 Do You Read' by the same author, featuring a fictitious preserved steam railway. If you're an expert in steam loco operation you might be able to spot the technical errors!

bill fly
26th May 2019, 09:44
By coincidence ( I was looking for a different thread) I was with Gary two weeks ago at the North Atlantic Air Race event and we boarded "his" Vanguard, which is still being restored. The engines get started from time to time.
They have a model horse in the forward freight space to represent all the racehorses which this ship transported in its time. The cockpit looks much more gentlemanly than some I have worked in...

Jhieminga
26th May 2019, 14:04
I don't think the engines have been started up for several years now. The aircraft moved into its current position in the aircraft park in 2004 and since then, the engines have been run a few times. The last time must have been close to 10 years ago now. The main problem is that of finding a servicable starter for a Tyne, if you have one lying about.... But apart from that, the engines were drinking oil at quite a rate too.

The Vanguard is currently hiding within the scaffolding so that any corrosion issues can be dealt with and the airframe can be repainted.

The AvgasDinosaur
4th Jun 2019, 21:07
“The Damocles Plot” is now available in paperback format.
Thank goodness! Thank you discorde. Tremendous read still.
Any chance of ‘What Captain Jagger did next?, please
Be lucky
David

Discorde
5th Jun 2019, 09:09
Any chance of ‘What Captain Jagger did next?’


As you know, AD, Wilf sold Zulu Charlie to a Chinese fan of the Vibrator. After retiring from airline flying he bought an RV8 and joined a motley group of retired pilots who meet occasionally to set the world to rights over a (non-alcoholic) lunch at a pub conveniently adjacent to the airfields they choose for this purpose. They style themselves the Senior Aviators Group. Needless to say the acronym triggers mirth from some critics (particularly partners), who have also been heard to mutter the disrespectful epithet “Grumpair”. Not sure yet how things will pan out for Wilf. Watch this space!

The AvgasDinosaur
5th Jun 2019, 18:14
As you know, AD, Wilf sold Zulu Charlie to a Chinese fan of the Vibrator. After retiring from airline flying he bought an RV8 and joined a motley group of retired pilots who meet occasionally to set the world to rights over a (non-alcoholic) lunch at a pub conveniently adjacent to the airfields they choose for this purpose. They style themselves the Senior Aviators Group. Needless to say the acronym triggers mirth from some critics (particularly partners), who have also been heard to mutter the disrespectful epithet “Grumpair”. Not sure yet how things will pan out for Wilf. Watch this space!




I thought I recalled that Captain J. Had received an E-Mail from China and filed it under ‘Well, that requires some thought!”
i was hoping that Meteor’s newly fledged First Officer’s father might have invested.
Given that In Captain Jagger’s assessment ‘Air Freighting was out of the doldrums, for the time being at least’
my fingers remain firmly crossed.
Thanks for a truly remarkable read.
Be lucky
David

Discorde
6th Jun 2019, 09:05
Thanks David. Glad you enjoyed Damocles. If there’s sufficient interest, I’ll do a “what they did next” for the main characters. The original version was written almost 30 years ago (on an Amstrad PCW with daisy-wheel printer) - no internet, no emails, no mobile phones &c, so needed a fairly extensive rewrite to update it. Back then it was not difficult to bring to mind operational and tech details about the Vanguard from my own experience of it in the 1970s.

Argonautical
6th Jun 2019, 21:53
The Vanguard was one of my favourite airliners and I have always wondered why we didn't develop a maritime patrol variant for the RAF instead of the Comet.

Jhieminga
7th Jun 2019, 11:00
The size of the fuel tanks is probably one of the reasons. A Vanguard will not get much more than 1600 miles out of its tanks, while the Nimrod went up to 5700 miles. Installing extra tanks in the fuselage would eat into the space needed for sonobuoys, sensors and other electronics, so not really a solution. In comparison, the Lockheed Electra could do 2700 miles if not fully loaded. When they developed this into the P-3, it could do 5500 miles, which is significantly more than what the Vanguard had to offer.

GLIDER 90
9th Jun 2019, 16:30
Used to load up EP on the ramp.

OyYou
10th Jun 2019, 07:51
Quite a few years ago I commisioned an oil painting from Nigel at BA.
Still has pride of place on my office wall.

( I believe Nigel may have copied a print that was available at the time as the setting was supposed to be over the Forth Bridges at Edinburgh. Somehow it became North London. )

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/814x434/vanguard_83c8edd4c7eb73d544855ade35f9ec02cf03bcca.jpg

jindabyne
11th Jun 2019, 09:59
Bill Fly
What a coincidence!
I was first introduced to Gary in Oakham last Thursday - at an old RAF duffers' get together. Out of the blue, he commissioned me to do an Air Bridge Vanguard painting for him, which I'm presently researching - which is how I came across this thread!
MG

bill fly
14th Jun 2019, 20:21
Bill Fly
What a coincidence!
I was first introduced to Gary in Oakham last Thursday - at an old RAF duffers' get together. Out of the blue, he commissioned me to do an Air Bridge Vanguard painting for him, which I'm presently researching - which is how I came across this thread!
MG

Thats great jindabyne. Hope we‘ll see a copy on here... He didn’t ask you to paint any 55 Sqn aeroplanes by chance?

PS first Vanguard I saw was as a small boy at Farnborough. I liked it as they did whispering flypasts to rival the Britannia - I couldn’t stand the racket the jets made. Then I got to fly them...

JLSF
16th Jun 2019, 18:25
Had the opportunity to visit at the Brooklands museum last month, and it was undergoing a refurbishment action in the exterior.
Looks marvelous. The whole museum is awesome.

Jhieminga
17th Jun 2019, 09:54
https://cimg7.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/701x1000/vanguard_notice_76e2b5ab43774c4bdfefad829bf30af1e9e1a2a2.jpg

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/1000x446/vanguard_scaffolding_e94d34677a33a53e4515c9510bc99bbe4502e42 0.jpg

The AvgasDinosaur
17th Jun 2019, 19:49
Where, when and which was the last ever Vanguard/Merchanman flight ?
At risk of thread drift likewise for the Viscount?
Thanks in anticipation for your time and trouble
Be lucky
David

Jhieminga
17th Jun 2019, 19:54
G-APEP’s delivery to Brooklands was the last Vanguard flight.

The AvgasDinosaur
17th Jun 2019, 20:04
I thought so but I was curious to see if one of her sisters had carried on a little bit longer. I recall one was sprayed up in full Hunting colours, expensive for end of service ?
Thanks for your ‘swift’ and ‘superb’ reply.
Be lucky
David

Jamie-Southend
17th Jun 2019, 20:27
you may or may not have seen this now old clip

http://youtu.be/T01oVw0XVts

Jhieminga
18th Jun 2019, 06:26
I didn't have the time to look up the exact date yesterday. It was delivered to Brooklands on 17 October 1996, if my memory isn't playing tricks on me it flew from East Midlands airport to Brooklands. There used to be a website about 'EP but it has been offline for a while now. Here is a capture of the site from 2013 courtesy of the Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20130718041131/http://vickers-vanguard-merchantman.com/

The story is a bit different for the Viscount, it is believed that the last airworthy Viscount, 9Q-COD, last flew in January 2009 for Global Airways in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (according to Wikipedia). There is an excellent site about the type here: A Virtual Museum dedicated to the Vickers-Armstrongs Viscount (http://www.vickersviscount.net/Default.aspx)Further details are not available unfortunately. As the most succesful of the Vickers turboprops, the Viscount's history deserved a more dignified ending if you ask me.

sixchannel
18th Jun 2019, 21:05
I didn't have the time to look up the exact date yesterday. It was delivered to Brooklands on 17 October 1996, if my memory isn't playing tricks on me it flew from East Midlands airport to Brooklands. There used to be a website about 'EP but it has been offline for a while now. Here is a capture of the site from 2013 courtesy of the Wayback Machine: https://web.archive.org/web/20130718041131/http://vickers-vanguard-merchantman.com/

The story is a bit different for the Viscount, it is believed that the last airworthy Viscount, 9Q-COD, last flew in January 2009 for Global Airways in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (according to Wikipedia). There is an excellent site about the type here: A Virtual Museum dedicated to the Vickers-Armstrongs Viscount (http://www.vickersviscount.net/Default.aspx)Further details are not available unfortunately. As the most succesful of the Vickers turboprops, the Viscount's history deserved a more dignified ending if you ask me.
Interesting archive and I had to smile at the lovely doubleTypo that indicates that some aircraft were built between 1662 and 1664.
That predates the Wright brothers a tad. 😁

BEagle
19th Jun 2019, 06:27
The 'Whispering Warehouse' was an occasional visitor to RAF Brize Norton in the 1980s...

The first airline flight I ever had was in a BEA Vanguard - from Gatwick to Gibraltar in 1965.

The AvgasDinosaur
19th Jun 2019, 07:39
The 'Whispering Warehouse' was an occasional visitor to RAF Brize Norton in the 1980s...

The first airline flight I ever had was in a BEA Vanguard - from Gatwick to Gibraltar in 1965.
I always thought the sobriquet ‘whispering warehouse’ was applied to the CL-44, another fine purveyor of Tyne symphony?
Be lucky
David

treadigraph
19th Jun 2019, 08:02
Pair of Tynes over here the other day, firmly attached to a French AF Transall... lovely noise!

DaveReidUK
19th Jun 2019, 08:44
Pair of Tynes over here the other day, firmly attached to a French AF Transall... lovely noise!

Yes, it's ironic that the Germans, French and Italians between them built almost 10 times as many Tyne-powered aircraft as the the UK ever did.

I must admit it's the first time I've ever heard the word "whispering" applied to it - the Tyne is certainly no Proteus.

jindabyne
19th Jun 2019, 09:23
Bill Fly,

Yes he did! A Victor K1A of No 55 squadron. Both paintings ETOC, Oct this year.

ATSA1
19th Jun 2019, 09:40
I have always thought that the Vanguard was an aircraft way ahead of its time.. it arrived just as pure jets were becoming plentiful, but then AVTUR was only a fraction of the price that it is now...
When oil starts going up again..(and it will!) then a large turboprop will be the thing to have ...then someone will remember the Vanguard, and how fast it was...

Discorde
19th Jun 2019, 10:13
One of the Tyne's idiosyncrasies: during climbout from LHR in the early 1960s one would hear CL44s (can't remember which operator) momentarily throttling back from climb power for a few seconds (approx 5 miles from the airport) and then throttling up again.

A few years later during Vanguard ground school I have vague memories of an instructor telling us that BEA originally had an SOP doing the same thing at top of climb, to 'offload the splines' (whatever that meant). Apparently it was common practice for the flight crew to do a PA at the same time to distract the pax from the sudden silence from the engines. (Although one would wonder why the throttle back wasn't done in engine pairs - inners together then outers together to reduce thrust loss. We'll never know . . .)

Another Vanguard idiosyncrasy: on the approach the props were operating in the constant speed regime so we judged engine power by fuel flow rather than torque meter readings (not precise enough). Every change of power setting also required a rudder trim input to keep the slip needle centred.

treadigraph
20th Jun 2019, 10:24
Yes, it's ironic that the Germans, French and Italians between them built almost 10 times as many Tyne-powered aircraft as the the UK ever did.

I must admit it's the first time I've ever heard the word "whispering" applied to it - the Tyne is certainly no Proteus.

Just having a shower and thought "what's that drone?" Yep, FAF Transall R226 straight over the top heading towards Calais... You can hear Tynes at 19000' over the noise of a shower and my discordant singing....

The AvgasDinosaur
21st Jun 2019, 22:10
I thought so but I was curious to see if one of her sisters had carried on a little bit longer. I recall one was sprayed up in full Hunting colours, expensive for end of service ?
Thanks for your ‘swift’ and ‘superb’ reply.
Be lucky
David
Do any of you learned contributors by any chance have a photo of the Hunting Merchantman?
More importantly if so would you be prepared to share on here ?
Thanks in anticipation,
Be lucky
David

DaveReidUK
21st Jun 2019, 22:52
https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/search?q=&f=_all&exact=1&type=Merchantman&registration=&operator=Hunting&code_number=&construction_number=&airport=&country=&photographer=&date_taken=&airshow=&military_unit=&information=&exact=1&search_type=advanced

The AvgasDinosaur
22nd Jun 2019, 13:45
https://abpic.co.uk/pictures/search?q=&f=_all&exact=1&type=Merchantman&registration=&operator=Hunting&code_number=&construction_number=&airport=&country=&photographer=&date_taken=&airshow=&military_unit=&information=&exact=1&search_type=advanced
Thank you Sir,
How long did she wear those colours, it seems a bit late in service to go to the expense of a complete respray?
Be lucky
David

DaveReidUK
22nd Jun 2019, 18:24
How long did she wear those colours, it seems a bit late in service to go to the expense of a complete respiratory.

G-APES was broken up in or around February 1995, so not for long.

The nose went to Aeropark at EMA, and I've seen photos of it there still in the basic Hunting white scheme and bearing "Swiftsure" titles up to and including 2008, later repainted in BEA colours.

jindabyne
1st Sep 2019, 08:32
bill fly

As requested. Gary took possession of them on 23rd August - in a Rutland pub :ok:

https://cimg3.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1439/air_bridge_vanguard_37fbbc38ac339d2e84c960efea2db317489775ff .jpg

https://cimg4.ibsrv.net/gimg/pprune.org-vbulletin/2000x1449/57_squadron_victor_k2a_01a8a4b50186bbafed0beccb397925430123c 8a3.jpg

treadigraph
1st Sep 2019, 09:20
Just passing Brooklands on the train, hard to see much through the track side clutter!

Lovely pics Jindabyne.

Liffy 1M
1st Sep 2019, 14:38
Do any of you learned contributors by any chance have a photo of the Hunting Merchantman?
More importantly if so would you be prepared to share on here ?
Thanks in anticipation,
Be lucky
David

Here are a couple at Dublin in 1993.
https://live.staticflickr.com/3218/13015273375_bab372b650_b.jpg
https://live.staticflickr.com/3336/3556966152_95c3f7d6e4_b.jpg

The AvgasDinosaur
1st Sep 2019, 15:18
Liffy 1M,
Greatly appreciated
Thanks
Be lucky
David

Jhieminga
3rd Sep 2019, 08:09
https://live.staticflickr.com/65535/48670133291_f656477356_z.jpg
G-APES_XV108 by Jelle Hieminga (https://www.flickr.com/photos/102686263@N02/), on Flickr

This is the best photo I have of G-APES' nose section, this one is from a visit in 2016.