P51 and Skyraider Collision at Legends 10 Jul 11

[cobaltfrog]

'A P51 and Skyraider are understood to have had a collison at Flying Legends at Duxford today after the final Balbo on the break.'

P51 pilot landed safely after a parachute landing and was seen in the bar with a pint. Skyraider landed safely with a decent bit of wing missing.

CF

[brokenlink]

Commentators reported P-51 pilot safe within 15 minutes of the incident, good to see the on site staff moved quickly and were able to reassure the public. Great flying by the Skyraider pilot in getting a quite badly damaged a/c back on the ground quickly.
Very glad all involved were unscathed

[NutLoose]

Dramatic shots of the final moments of the P-51 and the damage to the Skyraider here......... Very Very lucky

Mustang lost at Duxford / Skyraider damaged. No serious injuries (current info) - Page 3 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=110391&page=3)

From Link

http://forum.keypublishing.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=197295&d=1310329995

[SASless]

What damage was done to the Mustang to render it unflyable? All the big bits seem still attached in the photo.

[TheWizard]

Easily said from the comfort of an armchair of course! :hmm:

['Chuffer' Dandridge]

Looking at that picture, it probably broke or at least severely weakened the aircraft's back...

Only the pilot will know:ok:

[cobaltfrog]

I think you will find your answer aft of the air scoop aft of the wing! Quite a dink out of it.

[thorpey]

Look at the underside, aft of the wings, it seems to have a rather large ding. Glad pilots are ok.

[GeeRam]

I think you will find your answer aft of the air scoop aft of the wing! Quite a dink out of it.

Quite a Spad leading edge shaped ding I would say.

Guessing either it's back was broken or control lines severed...??

Amazing bail out from a P-51 at such low level :eek:

Ironic it's marked as Col Landers a/c when he was CO of the wartime Duxford based 78th FG.

[NutLoose]

Looks like it took a hit behind the rad, so you probably have a weakend back end, possibly elevator and rudder control issues as the cables run down the fuselage and even cooler and tail wheel issues..... and that's just guessing sitting here........ looking at the damage to the other it was quite bad, in the fullness of time it will come out.......... Main thing is everyone walked away from it, that is the one important thing, metal can be replaced.

see

Scramble Messageboard • Information (http://forum.scramble.nl/viewtopic.php?f=41&t=75882)

Add to that SASless this quote

I was on the tank bank, not believing what I was seeing.

When the Mustang dipped and headed from the ground, I was sure it, and the pilot, was 5 seconds from a fireball. To see a dot separate from the fighter, and a chute blossom almost instantly was a truly fantastic sight


Mustang lost at Duxford / Skyraider damaged. No serious injuries (current info) - Page 4 - Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums (http://forum.keypublishing.com/showthread.php?t=110391&page=4)

Better hanging from a chute thinking about it.

[Vox Populi]

Video:

YouTube - ‪Mid Air collision Duxford Flying Legends 2011-07-10‬‏

[BOAC]

Hats off to that P51 pilot - a timely bale-out!

[tartare]

Can anyone explain the sequence for getting out of a P51?
Is there a canopy jettison lever?
How do you separate yourself from the seat?
Is rolling inverted recommended - to fall out - or just jump as high as possible?
Seems like incredibly quick reactions on this pilot's part.
Makes you realise the contrast between WW2 era bail outs and todays pulling of the black and yellow handle...

[SomeGuyOnTheDeck]

P-51s had a notice on the instrument panel advising the pilot to lower the seat before jettisoning the canopy - I think the jettison lever is on the right hand side. In general, I think the advice for most WWII fighters was to roll inverted if you had the time and altitude, but otherwise try to go out low and sideways, so hopefully you went under the elevator. Frankly though, in the circumstances of an incident like this, I'm not sure you'd have time to think.

It is good to see that nobody was seriously hurt. Sad to see a warbird written off, but that is less important.

[thunderbird7]

Anyone know who was flying the P51?

[GreenKnight121]

What damage was done to the Mustang to render it unflyable? All the big bits seem still attached in the photo.

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Mustang lost at Duxford / Skyraider damaged. No serious injuries (current info) (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1771931&postcount=98)

thats a right dink in the rear part of the air scoop body. do the control lines feed through that part??.
your photo`s really show how lucky he was to get out in time. there must have been just seconds betwwen him bailing out and the mustang going in.

Looking at the P-51 Haynes Manual, you can make out control cables passing through that area, and its near the tail assembly bulkhead.
As pagen01 said earlier, what a decision to be made in nanoseconds.

Maybe from afar in sections of the general public, warbird pilots could be viewed as just having capacious wallets, this incident has proved.......as if you needed convincing.....that successful and safe operation of warbirds requires great skills as well as quick minds, and not just the required large bank balance.
As a PPL, perched on the bottom rung of the great aviation ladder, I doff my cap to the two pilots in todays incident, as well as to every pilot who displayed at Legends and who display warbirds everyday round the world.

[GreenKnight121]

Anyone know who was flying the P51?

Key Publishing Ltd Aviation Forums - View Single Post - Mustang lost at Duxford / Skyraider damaged. No serious injuries (current info) (http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/showpost.php?p=1771993&postcount=133)

Still can't quite believe how lucky Rob Davies was to get out of the Mustang, but thankfully he did. Shame to see BBD go down but I've still got some great memories of her in the 26 years since she first came to Duxford.

http://forum.keypublishing.co.uk/attachment.php?attachmentid=197299&d=1310329995

[tonker]

Your flying along nicely and then there is a huge smack, you suddenly pitch down towards the ground.(which isn't very far away)

1 Bail out

2 Hang around to find out the kites technical merits

[Cows getting bigger]

In good old civil aviation fashion you could always do a bit of DODAR action. :eek:

[Lightning Mate]

I'm wondering if the collision did indeed sever some flying controls.

It appears that the Mustang might have been under quite a bit of negative g, which would explain the apparent ease of the escape.

Putting the armchair back into the garage and awaiting AAIB repoprt.

[canard68]

Right then we will put an order in for 30 Skyraiders for the FAA, they seem tough enough.

[BlackIsle]

Given the shock of the collision, the ever reducing lack of height after it and the actions needed to bale out - what a truly remarkable escape! Sharp decisive mind notwithstanding the urge for self preservation :ok:

[StopStart]

Right then we will put an order in for 30 Skyraiders for the FAA, they seem tough enough.

Looking at the pictures linked to on the other site I reckon this an ex FAA AD4W/AEW Mk1 aircraft anyway!

[November4]

Anyone know who was flying the P51?

Big Beautiful Doll used to be owned and operated by an ex-SAC Mover....is that still the case?

Just seen that Rob is was flying at the time.

Daily Mail (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2013219/Display-pilots-incredible-escape-World-War-Two-fighter-bails-mid-air-collision-airshow.html)

[on21]

I like the way the daily mail article described the Skyraider as suffering "only minor wing damage" if having 5 foot of wing missing is minor I'd hate to see what it considers as major damage?

[NutLoose]

Big Beautiful Doll used to be owned and operated by an ex-SAC Mover....is that still the case?


Was sold recently to Germany, so it was a German and French owned American Aircraft over England......... hope that clears things up :p

went here


North American P-51 D "Big Beautiful Doll" (http://www.meiermotors.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=121&Itemid=18&lang=en)


News (http://www.meiermotors.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=86%3Alatest-news&catid=25%3Aaircraft-&Itemid=18&lang=en)


New footage out of the accident from below

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OynscjUHzxg

[treadigraph]

I like the way the daily mail article described the Skyraider as suffering "only minor wing damage" if having 5 foot of wing missing is minor I'd hate to see what it considers as major damage?


I suspect those well known aviation experts at the Mail were too busy checking the correct spelling of "plummeted" to work out which aircraft was which - after all the Skyraider is missing a large chunk of wing and is apparently doomed while the Mustang "appears" to be intact and under control...

[60024]

I photographed the break of BBD and the A-1, then turned to photograph the next formation. My son tapped me on the shoulder and said 'Look!'. I saw something fluttering (presumeably the wingtip) and the A-1 very nose down, thinking that something had failed on the Skyraider and didn't notice BBD go in (there appeared to be no fire - no smoke) . I concentrated on the pull-out of the dive of the A-1. A few seconds later my son spotted the parachute open just before it disappeared behind trees. (He's used to seeing parachutes open from our last posting at Netheravon - one moment there is nothing, then suddenly a chute is visible). Until that moment I didn't realise that a mid-air had occurred, as the relative sizes of the two aircraft made judging the distance between them difficult from where I was. It was probably a good job it was a left hand circuit so the A-1 was turning away from the damaged wing. He rolled to a stop in front of us, having stop-cocked the engine. It was a good ten minutes later that a Follow Me jeep turned up to enquire of the pilot if he was ok, long after all the other emergency vehicles drove straight past him. It must have been very difficult for him, just 30 yards in front of a large crowd. There was no mention of the accident by the commentator for almost 30 minutes when it was mentioned that the third pilot had said he'd never seen anyone get out of an aircraft so fast. Well done to everyone concerned for how things panned out after the collision.

[November4]

Was sold recently to Germany, so it was a German and French owned American Aircraft over England......... hope that clears things up

Just heard the same - had been sold to Germany but it had neem borrowed back for s couple of displays.

[maxred]

A big shout also for the Skyraider pilot. Understandably, concern was shown for the P51 and the fate of Rob, however, the A1 guy had it all play out in front of him, including what I would imagine was a fine view in the front screen, and nearly a mouthfull of P51.:(

[BOAC]

A big shout also for the Skyraider pilot - have you watched the video?

[maxred]

Actually yes I have.

[ciderman]

Saw a great P51 display at VL on the Saturday. Same aircraft/pilot? Great news no casualties.

[John Farley]

There are rules associated with formation flying and believe me nobody is better equpped than BOAC to explain them to you should you care to drop him a PM.

[maxred]

Thanks JF, and I would also agree that BOAC is highly experienced, and would not question his competence level.

I am also aware of the rules of display and formation flying, and I am also aware of what too much energy can achieve, and I watched both video snippets.

I am also acutely aware that accidents can happen for a variety of reasons, which is I why I generally await AAIB reports.

[Eagle402]

tube of thee clip including much relief at successful exit of Mustang jockey :

YouTube - ‪Duxford 2011 P51 Skyraider Crash‬‏

[Tailspin Turtle]

After a couple of close looks at one of the videos: After impact and the loss of a good part of the right wing, the Skyraider winds up inverted and rolling right. By skill and/or luck, the pilot completes the roll and winds up on downwind for the runway, albeit a bit low.

[Fareastdriver]

Looks look he was trying to keep the nose up and when he realised it wasn't going to happen he bailed out. As he released the stick the shallow dive turned into a steep dive and may well have helped him out.

[BEagle]

BOAC - I agree...

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/Dux.jpg

How could #2 on this vic break have become so unsighted from his leader as to have had such a collision?

Let's wait for the AAIB report to discover the cause - but frankly it was a miracle that both pilots survived.

Flying Lawyer - do you see what I meant now about Duxford, old chum....??

(with acknowledgements to David Taylor and FlyingFilm.co.uk (http://www.flyingfilm.co.uk))

[BOAC]

Please note, y'all, I didn't say nuffin, and indeed each of us is entitled to make up their own mind. I was just curious if the video had been viewed.

[Major Bigglesworth]

more of a groan than a shout.

[old-timer]

Very pleased Pilot got out ok .
10 / 10 for speedy & correct action - not much time to think in such situations & so close to Terra Firma.
:D

[BEagle]

Please note, y'all, I didn't say nuffin, and indeed each of us is entitled to make up their own mind. I was just curious if the video had been viewed.

Understood.....:oh:

[H Peacock]

How could #2 on this vic break have become so unsighted from his leader as to have had such a collision?

Well, clearly a BIG difference in the way each of the aircraft flew the break, but I guess that is obvious given they broke a few seconds apart before meeting up again. In comparing all 3 aircraft to break, the leader appears to be the one who used a much slacker pull than the other 2. I wonder what they briefed?

So, maybe too early to apportion blame, but I will also agree with maxred:

A big shout also for the Skyraider pilot.

Also, if they were in Vic then the Skyraider being on the left was the No3 - or maybe they renumbered - or maybe they were in reverse vic or maybe...

[Mach the Knife]

3 avoids 2 avoids 1 was the way I was taught to fly a form break. Wonder if the P51 dude hurt his knuckles in the debrief?

[maxred]

Well it was the brief I was worried about, because someone, or all of them, did not fly the brief. When I viewed the video, I was concerned about the pull with the lead aircraft, particularly with a beast such as a Skyraider coming up my chuff:\

Anyway, whatever, lets see what the report brings

[NutLoose]

you would have thought they would have held everything on the taxiway or in the circuit to allow the fire service to attend??? you have squat fwd visibility in that situation


YouTube - ‪Fire engine go to crash of mustang at Duxford‬‏

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

you would have thought they would have held everything on the taxiway or in the circuit to allow the fire service to attend???


It did seem odd at the time that the fire vehicles had to drive so slowly, and stop at times, on their way to the site. They wouldn't have known at the time whether the P-51 pilot and/or any wreckage had come down on the airfield or not, so I was expecting more urgency!

[flighthappens]

Maxred & peacock, it doesn't matter what was briefed, if you have lost sight of the other aircraft you don't keep pulling on the stick... The contract generally is n+1 avoids n avoids 4 avoids 3 avoids 2 avoids 1.... and then after that lead does his best to fly smooth and predictable.

An example would be on the pitch lead sees a flock of birds so eases his pitch to go around them. This does not make it okay for #2 to hit him (because he had a slack pitch different to that briefed). #2's first responsibility is to stay visual and avoid lead.

[GreenKnight121]

Was sold recently to Germany, so it was a German and French owned American Aircraft over England......... hope that clears things up http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif

Actually, it is (was) an Australian-made aircraft mated with parts from an ex-Philippine Air Force American-made aircraft with Franco/German owners flying over England.

A68-192 G-HAEC " Big Beautiful Doll " Type:

CA-18 mk.22

Serial #:

A68-192


8 March, 1951: Commonwealth Aircraft Corporation
1951: RAAF
1958: VH-FCB (F.C. Braund)
1961: (Jack McDonald)
1969: PI-C651 Philippines (Prontino Inc.)
1973: crashed on landing, rebuilt using 44-72917 (ex-Phillippine AF P-51)
1981: VR-HIU (Hong Kong)
1985: rebuilt "CV H", shipped to UK
1985: G-HAEC, "Ding Hao", "Missy Wong from Hong Kong", "RAAF A68-192"

[H Peacock]

Maxred & peacock, it doesn't matter what was briefed, if you have lost sight of the other aircraft you don't keep pulling on the stick... The contract generally is n+1 avoids n avoids 4 avoids 3 avoids 2 avoids 1.... and then after that lead does his best to fly smooth and predictable.

Now, I do see your point, but not sure that you can remain visual with the guy in front throughout the break. Once he has broken you keep looking out the front, wait for the appropriate delay, then fly the same briefed profile. It is only then that you re-aquire the guy in front - expecting him to be on the horizon a good few hundred yards ahead. If you don't see him, are you immediately going to break out or call "lost visual" or simply keep looking until you eventually find him? Not always a 'comfy' position to be in, but been there many-a-time so can easily relate to it.

[BEagle]

Another view of the collision here: Video: US Fighter planes collide during Duxford air display - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/newstopics/howaboutthat/8630625/US-Fighter-planes-collide-during-Duxford-air-display.html)

Breaking from vic is always going to require a specific brief - details of which are not in the public domain. But I'm not sure that anyone would ever attempt to break 'blind' without knowing precisely where the aicraft ahead is, H Peacock.

But the AAIB will no doubt investigate the briefing and activity during the break very comprehensively. Fortunately there were no deaths, so it shouldn't take long for the cause of the collision to be established.

Other forums have indicated concern at some of the organisational aspects of this event - something which won't go unnoticed by the AAIB if indeed it is relevant.

[Unusual Attitude]

Nice to see no injuries.

What I see in this video is the mustang is no longer maintaining his turn.

He should be far above the skyraider and much further into his 180 degree break turn.

He's still banked but he's no longer turning before the collision as all the other planes did from the previous passes.

He was banked but no longer turning or climbing.

I'm wondering if he experienced a failure before the collision.

I agree the skyraider should have maintained separation but I'm not sure how much he could have done when faced with a plane that seems to have slowed greatly, stopped turning, and descended.

YouTube - ‪Duxford 2011 P51 Skyraider Crash‬‏

IcePaq, if you look at the footage just as they break you can see in the distance that no 4 from the previous break is only just on a very early downwind (and right up his No3's chuff), if the P51 lead had not shallowed up his turn I suspect he would have had issues running into someone on the downwind.....

[hum]

North American P-51 D "Big Beautiful Doll" (http://www.meiermotors.com/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=121&Itemid=18&lang=en)

[GANNET FAN]

Interesting, but not surprising, to see the "victories" on the side of the cockpit painted over in the attached photos.

[Trogger]

I was there both days - going to leave the speculation to others but thankfully the AAIB have a welcome bonus following this incident - both pilots are still with us.


Not sure what the reference to Duxford is about (BEagle posted "Flying Lawyer - do you see what I meant now about Duxford, old chum....??") but accidents are few and far between at airshows there - yes, we lost Hoof Proudfoot in the P-38 and the crew of the Firefly in recent years. I'd say it had a pretty good safety record. Accidents at airshows will happen now matter where they are held. The only way to prevent such events is to ground everything.
Mind you there are some armchair experts on various forums advocating that right now.....:mad:

[AirShowJunkie]

I was at Duxford on Sunday and was already slightly wary of the Skyraiders. As the three A-1s were flying in their allotted slot, they were flying in a vic formation. At one point the other French Skyraider (F-AZHK) broke from the port side as the formation made a climbing turn at the Eastern end of the airfield, just over the threshold of runway 24. In doing so, he then turned onto the base leg and nearly took out two Spitfires which were landing, the Skyraider having to pull up sharply at the last minute. He then pulled into a tight turn and ended up holding some miles to the East, landing on after the other 2 Skyraiders finished their display.

Jokingly i said to my Dad "If i was the Spit pilots, i'd be having words." Luckily, the Skyraiders were parked in front of us and no sooner had the a/c shut down than 3 Spitfire pilots walked over and seemed to be having a rather heated discussion with the Skyraider pilot after the very near miss.

The end result was the Skyraider was not flown in the Balbo, with only the North Weald based a/c and the other Jean Baptiste Salis machine which was involved in the mid-air with Big Beautiful Doll.

Add in the Fokker Dr.1 ending up on its nose and the Nieuport nearly ground looping, it was a day full of drama.

[skua]

Given that the hours on type of warbird display jockeys vary a lot, it is very fortunate that Rob Davies was the man in the cockpit, as his long familiarity with his former steed would presumably have facilitated his rapid exit....

[Load Toad]

Interesting, but not surprising, to see the "victories" on the side of the cockpit painted over in the attached photos.

The publication is German - as I understand the Swastika (Nazi version) is banned in Germany & can not be shown; anywhere, anytime.

[Neptunus Rex]

Having had a reasonable amount of formation time in both pistons and jets, I have never flown in a 'Vic Break.' We would always change to the appropriate echelon on the run-in. Apart from being considered dodgy, the Vic Break is a scrappy looking manoeuvre compared with an Echelon Break.

As can be seen from the video, once the leader had pitched up, he was out of sight to the two other aircraft. Such a shame to lose that beaut Mustang.

[H Peacock]

Apart from being considered dodgy, the Vic Break is a scrappy looking manoeuvre compared with an Echelon Break.

Will pass that on to the Reds!

Nothing wrong in breaking from Vic, but a big difference between breaking front-to-back (Reds) or back-to-front (BFTS). However, that has no bearing on this incident. I still maintain you expect the guy 'ahead' of you to be in the correct bit of sky; you can't always watch him throughout whilst you are still in formation before you break!

[TorqueOfTheDevil]

As can be seen from the video, once the leader had pitched up, he was out of sight to the two other aircraft


Are you sure about that? The canopy design on both the P-51D and the Skyraider should allow great visibility if a bit of neck bending takes place!

Is it just me, or does it seem surprising that the heavier, less agile aircraft was the wingman? Would it not be generally easier to have the two P-51s formating on the Skyraider?

[BOAC]

As can be seen from the video, once the leader had pitched up, he was out of sight to the two other aircraft. - as in any break? A vic break is not an issue - it would/should be briefed. I think all sections broke from either vic or finger?

[Trogger]

Rob Davies being interviewed on Anglia News this evening...

Anglia Regional News | Anglia Tonight - ITV Local (http://www.itv.com/anglia/pilot-speaks-about-crash48488/)

[Trogger]

Re: Swastika markings -
One Buchon (C.4K-169) has the outer part of the swastika still showing (the cross part being removed) forming a diamond shape, so it looks better at a passing glance, than just removing it completely...

[Fox Four]

Well researched Anglia. Skyrider, for heavens sake.....:*

[Background Noise]

Don't think the break formation shape really matters. The the bloke at the front shouldn't be looking for the bloke breaking behind him. The wingman should keep the guy ahead in sight. I guess he lost him, maybe saw someone ahead downwind, or looked at the wrong height. Either way, it must have been a bit tense jumping out at that height - and lucky it stayed in relatively stable flight.

We've done it too: Aviation History from 1981. Browse historical aircraft from 1981 (http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/1981.html) (article no 13)

[ShyTorque]

We've done it too: Aviation History from 1981. Browse historical aircraft from 1981 (article no 13)

Flt Lt John Cathie was killed in that collision. John and I joined the RAF as direct entrants on the same day (RAF Henlow, number 310 Course, Red Squadron). John won the sword for the best student on the officer training course and appeared to be destined for the upper echelons of the RAF. A very sad loss.

RIP old mate.

[Old Photo.Fanatic]

A bit late in the thread but here is my pics before and after the collision.
Late in thread due to problems getting Photobucket to work!!!

I was in the South West corner of the airfield and saw the sad event happen.
Very happy to know both pilots made it down OK.:D

Just before the Aircraft made the Break to land
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt200/phredd10/duxford2011/PreCollisionformation.jpg


http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt200/phredd10/duxford2011/C1P51MustangCrashedPilotEjectingT.jpg


http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt200/phredd10/duxford2011/D1P51MustangCrashedPilotdeployingParachuteT.jpg


Damage to wing just visable
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt200/phredd10/duxford2011/A1SkyraderAircraftDamagedT.jpg


Bit of a shaky pic, shows damage to wing
http://i611.photobucket.com/albums/tt200/phredd10/duxford2011/B1DamagedSkyraiderAircraftT.jpg


OPF

[Dengue_Dude]

Bittersweet, magnificently unhurt, lucky, safe and all those feelings.

Whatever else happened, a skilful recovery of the A1. If you 'must' collide, this is as good an outcome as is possible.

But this sequence of pictures are absolutely stunning.

Thanks for posting.

[Mandator]

I witnessed the Bruggen mid-air. What the Flight Global report does not say is that the aircraft which fell "on the airfield" actually fell inside the conventional bomb dump, close to a huge stack of thousand-pounders. Let us be thankful for explosives storage regulations.

[Flap62]

How bizarre!

You have a thinly choreographed, self declared "Balbo" involving difficult to fly, high performance machinery. The standard of brief is unclear and even whether all the participants attended a formal pre-sortie "brief" but what is for sure that SOPs in the military sense were non-existent.

Quelle surprise. Reports of aircraft going everywhere and having near misses in the circuit then two clap hands. Anyone else not surprised?

[Trogger]

The standard of brief is unclear and even whether all the participants attended a formal pre-sortie "brief" but what is for sure that SOPs in the military sense were non-existent.

The "standard of the brief" will be unclear if you weren't there. :rolleyes:
There have been plenty of Balbos at Duxford since Legends took over from the Classic Fighter show. Obviously the "SOPs" in the past have worked - would be interested to find out how you think they were "non-existent" this time (without including this accident)...

[Flap62]

The "standard of the brief" will be unclear if you weren't there.

That's why I said it was unclear! Duh! (as my daughter would say)

If you are telling me that a group of pilots from completely different areas, sometimes languages, backgrounds, aircraft types have a set of SOPs that are as formed as a set of military SOPs then I will gladly retract my statement.

On the other hand, if the SOPs that are in place allow for an aircraft to have a near miss with two others on finals then another aircraft of a similar type to break from the number 3 position and hit his leader (not even the no. 2!!!) then I might suggest those SOPs could be ever so slightly tweeked.

[Trogger]

Maybe your daughter would have phrased it better...

You have a thinly choreographed, self declared "Balbo" involving difficult to fly, high performance machinery. "Thinly choreographed" & "self declared" - again maybe your daughter would get the point across better but this isn't a last minute, improvised, lets all fly together en masse formation.
Many of the pilots have flown together at Duxford before and have flown in the Balbo before.

Any other incidents which occurred on the day will no doubt be looked into if they really caused near misses, rather than oohs or aahs from spectators with a skewed perspective of what was where and when.
It's amazing how many people were convinced the Mustang had flown into the Skyraider.
The safety record at Duxford is good. That record hasn't been achieved by cobbling together displays stood around the kettle, five minutes before the show opens.

Were you there?

[Flap62]

No I wasn't there but then again I wasn't at RIAT for the Mig 29 incident and we all know what happened there!

[Trogger]

Would that be before or after the AAIB investigation?........:D

[cessnapete]

From your uninformed comments, you obviously have not participated in a Duxford display. I displayed at Duxford for a number of years until the aircraft was recently sold.

In the civil world it is obviously not possible to carry out the massive amount of time and finance that the military expend for their dedicated display performers.

Civil participants are governed by the UK CAA and all pilots are covered by display authorisations, including arrangements to cover visiting foreign aircraft/aircrew.

Very thorough aircrew briefings do indeed take place before every Duxford Display, especially due to the number of foreign pilots involved.

(In my opinion the air safety cause has not been helped by the enthusiastic grounding due 'paperwork' of many of the Duxford aircraft over the last three years by a particular CAA Surveyor, requiring the participation of more non local aircraft/aircrew.)

The run and break at Duxford is briefed, as it is non standard. Due to noise constraints the village on left base to R24 has to be avoided. The initial break is to approx 90 deg and not a continuous turn to downwind, to extend the circuit around the village.
This may turn out to be a factor in this event.

[Mandator]

Agricus highlights the situation of the poor chap in the 'Raider. From what I have seen he seems to have been offered no medical assistance at the aircraft when, at best he must have been suffereing from the onset of severe shock. I wonder if the IWM's post-crash management procedures ask anyone to give a thought to the care that the other party might need? Obviously, the focus was on BBD and its pilot, but someone should have been taking care of the 'Raider pilot as well.

[fallmonk]

Glad both pilots safe and well, and no one hurt from crowd line.
Out off curiosity how much would the P51 be worth ?
I hope it's repairable and if not hope it can still be a donor aircraft to another mustang waiting to take to the air again !

[GeeRam]

Out off curiosity how much would the P51 be worth ?

Around £1m give or take a few hundred grand either side.

There's two for sale currently in the USA, one is US$1.3m and the other US$1.8m.

[courtney]

I also have displayed at Duxford and have been alarmed on a number of occasions in the pre display work ups, cowboys seemed an apt discription at times. Why is it necessary to formate, aerobat and stress these old aircraft? The P38 crash was a classic example of what not to do, consequently we have no P38, no Mossie and a few others. Duxford accidents are fortunately rare but they do happen and will continue to happen with unfortunate loss of aircraft and possibly lives, the safest course would be to put away the quasi military displays and just fly the things straight and level.

[Trogger]

Why is it necessary to formate, aerobat and stress these old aircraft?

Most of the manoeuvres these "old aircraft" do are well within their 'tolerances' - e.g. the BBMF display is very sedate compared to some privately owned warbirds. If a private warbird owner only wants their aircraft to be flown with kid gloves that is their choice - others are quite happy for them to be flown balls to the wall.
Many of these old aircraft are in better condition now than when they first rolled off the assembly lines 70 years ago.
If it wasn't for the 'industry' behind restoring these "old aircraft" most of them would still be sitting on a steel pole and we would have a handful of Spitfires still flying, rather than the 45 worldwide (as of May 2011).
There were 164 airworthy P-51s around the world, sadly one less for now but the industry can work miracles these days.

The sad loss of the B-17 "Liberty Belle" in Ohio a couple of weeks ago, happened on a straight forward flight from A to B after a fire caught hold after takeoff.

Would your ideal world have all of these "old aircraft" gathering dust in museums or hangars never seeing the light of day?

The P38 crash was a classic example of what not to do, consequently we have no P38...

"What not to do"? I'm sorry - do you know something about the cause of the accident that the AAIB doesn't?
The closing part of the AAIB report stated -
It is known that the pilot was a very experienced display pilot and produced high quality, aesthetically pleasing displays. There is no evidence to explain why the aircraft entered the second part of the final manoeuvre in a less than optimum pitch attitude which developed into a significant downward trajectory. The possibility of a temporary restriction to the flying controls (especially the roll control), or some other form of distraction of the pilot, could not be dismissed.

Thankfully this time all involved walked away.

[Madbob]

Your post got me thinking about insurance. Are the ac themselves covered, or would there be just 3rd Party and Public Liability cover?

So if "A" dinks "B" and "B" crashes, does "A" have to pay out for the loss of "B"?

What would be the situation with an HMG-owned/operated ac? Would the MoD or Crown cough up?

MB

[Heathrow Harry]

"Would your ideal world have all of these "old aircraft" gathering dust in museums or hangars never seeing the light of day?"

maybe when you get down to say 10 specimens the answer has to be yes......

[Trogger]

Plenty of leeway with the Mustang then.........

[Big Pistons Forever]

The first sentence from the first ground brief of my first formation lesson (civilian warbird form course using the FAST program). The instructor was X Canadian Forces QFI and X Snowbird display pilot.

The first rule of formation flying: It is your responsibity not to hit lead............

[NutLoose]

Close ups of the crash site.

mustang crash | Flickr - Photo Sharing! (http://www.flickr.com/photos/37660802@N03/5937872389/in/set-72157624496346485/)

[Champagne Anyone?]

My main concern was the delay in the Emergency Services being Scrambled to the crash site....

I watched in horror as the incident unfolded but when there was no movement of the Rescue Vehicles following the crash of the P51, and for some considerable time, I was close to calling 999 on my mobile and raising the alarm myself. I didn't in the end as another gentleman standing next to me had already done so stating 'Don't the Duxford Crash Crews attend aircraft crashes anymore? Is that another health and safety restriction?'

I am glad that there were no serious injuries but disgusted at the response times by the Crash Crews... And for the second time that afternoon!! (Triplane Incident!)

[Trogger]

Maybe the response was made by the fire crews from Cambridgeshire Fire & Rescue as it was outside the airfield boundary?

[JEM60]

All I can say is that at the motorway end, I missed the accident, and was suddenly aware that all four fire engines and an ambulance at that fire point had started up, blue lights etc., and gone haring down the taxi-way at high speed. I think that, for the purposes of accidents/incidents, that the airfield and it's surroundings are divided into sectors, and an accident in a certain sector is the resposibility of the fire crews nearest to that sector, together with back up from others if need be. I have been attending shows at Duxford for many years, and have witnessed several accidents/incidents, and the response of fire crews has always been instant. [Unlike Oshkosh, in the States where response has always been dire compared to the U.K.]
With respect to one of the posters, I was unfortunate enough to witness a crash at Mildenhall, on the airfield, and on the news on ITV that evening, a witness complained that it had taken the first emergency vehicle six minutes to reach the scene. I replayed my video, and timed it , and it turned out to be 1minute 30 secs. In instances like this, time does seem to stand still, and a minute can seem to be a very long time indeed.

[GreenKnight121]

On another forum, several posters who were at Duxford July 10 were insisting that the Skyraider pilot sat in his cockpit for 15 minutes before climbing out... without anyone going to the aircraft in that time.

Another poster checked his camera, and it was 4 minutes 30 seconds between the pic of the Skyraider taxying to a stop and the pic of the pilot walking around the aircraft inspecting the damage.

Those other eye-witnesses had tripled the actual time of the events... not uncommon in such circumstances.

[Paracab]

This is basic stuff for the majority of you but the emergency services do not move until instructed to do so by ATC; little point in charging across the active and causing further dramas really.

Fire attend first (when cleared), ensure scene safety then call for ambulance attendance if necessary. The ambo crew then seek clearance also if not already given.

Time does seem to drag for the lay person in an emergency; I'm told there is nothing worse than waiting for an ambulance when you need one!

It's been a couple of years since I've covered Duxford but that's how it was last time I was there.

Cambs Fire & Rescue are already in attendance on the site alongside Duxford Fire Service, snapping up some overtime whilst having a pleasant day out (like myself) no doubt.

[Expect to walk]

Here's an interesting follow up from Rob Davies, pilot of Big Beautiful Doll, as told in yesterdays Guardian. (http://www.guardian.co.uk/lifeandstyle/2011/aug/12/i-crashed-vintage-plane)