RAF Nimrod / Argentine B707 encounter Falklands War ?

[stilton]

Just read an article that claims one of the RAF Nimrods (presumably operating out of Ascension Island) had an 'up close encounter) with the Argentine Air Force 707 that was used to watch the UK forces.



It says they both 'looked each other over but, since both Aircraft were unarmed they continued on their way'



Is there any truth to this and does anyone have more details ?

[Ivan Rogov]

No details on the proximity, but I doubt it would have been eyeball to eyeball QRA style. You could see a fair distance from a Nimrod window and I would guess it was a number of miles?

AFAIK it was the catalyst for

http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/438183-sidewinders-nimrod-2.html

[Ray Dahvectac]

Yes, it's a true story.

We were at medium level, VMC between layers, conducting surface surveillance in support of the main TF somewhere south of ASI. While it wasn't quite a QRA style flying alongside and taking photos/waving copies of Playboy lookover the 707 (coming from the south) made a turn about 1000 feet above us, descended slightly and approached from about the 3 o'clock before making a leisurely turn in front of us and slowly disappearing from view. Probably a mile or two away at CPA.

Although we broadcast the details on HF and UHF (the HF was heard back at ASI and by forward elements of the TF further south), nothing was heard on board the main part of the TF about 50 miles away where the Harriers were (or so we were briefed) holding cockpit readiness with the aim of splashing the B707. Comms with the RN were ever thus! :sad:

Yes, it's said that it was that encounter (I believe there was another, though perhaps not so close) that led to the MR2 fleet being fitted with Sidewinder.

[tucumseh]

Comms with the RN were ever thus! http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/puppy_dog_eyes.gif

Yes, it's said that it was that encounter (I believe there was another, though perhaps not so close) that led to the MR2 fleet being fitted with Sidewinder.


Very interesting and explains some background I didn't know. Action was immediately taken to fix the RN/RAF comms interoperability problem, but when the kit was delivered (very quickly, first a/c fitted in 1984) the RAF belatedly decided they didn't want it and for the next 12 years it languished unused until finally scrapped. What a ******* waste. Many tens of millions down the pan.

The problem arose again in the 90s in the Adriatic with the It***ans complaining they couldn't comminicate. But if the policy wasn't to be interoperable between UK Services, what chance was there between allies? This "no interoperability" policy was still extant in 2004, with DEC demanding its removal from any requirement, but I see in recent years it is being mentioned again, but perhaps not funded.

[MATELO]

Here you go BGG, I believe this was taken on app into Aki.

http://www.terrane.co.uk/prodimg/ST1936_Zoom.jpg
(http://www.terrane.co.uk/prodimg/ST1936_Zoom.jpg)

[FE Hoppy]

We had BOZ and FLIR and something out the back but no winders as far as I remember.

[merlinxx]

Kokinelli/Keo :ugh::E Don't my head hurts just reading the names:{

[cazatou]

Kokinelli -

Not a drop is sold until it's 7 hours old !!!!

[MrBernoulli]

Kokinelli? A faaboolus Welsh wine, isn't it?

[SASless]

You could see a fair distance from a Nimrod window

Damn....now that is cutting edge techology.....one more reason to recall the Nimrod iddnit!

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

tuc,

Most of the comms faffs between MPA and the RN (and/or other navies) had little to do withkit interoperability; more to do with the Human Machine Interface!

Duncs:ok:

[thunderbird7]

Damn....now that is cutting edge techology.....one more reason to recall the Nimrod iddnit!

If you were the poor sucker in a liferaft at 30W you might not be so glib...

[Nimman]

There are a few recorded mentions of UK forces contact with an Argentinian 707 (they had 3 at the time) during Op Corporate on the net. On 21 Apr 800 NAS sent up a sidewinder armed Sea Harrier to warn one away from the task force, on 12 May 201 Sqn made contact (as already mentioned) and on 22 May HMS Cardiff launched some Sea Dart missiles at one of the aircraft, which she evaded. They apparently didn't bother UK forces again after that.

[stilton]

Interesting that the RN was able to shoot down a Learjet operating above 50000 feet and out of the envelope for Sea Dart but was not able to hit this 707 despite firing several at it.

[Pontius Navigator]

stilton, and their-in lies the difference between a MEZ and akill-zone.

To use an old set of data for the SA2. The MEZ was 40 but the kill zone was 27. In order to get a kill at 27 miles the missile had to be launched when the target entered the MEZ at 40.

If the target was non-cooperative, ie it evaded, it would remain clear of the kill zone until the missile ran out of ommph.

In the Learjet case I would opine the Learjet flew in to the kill zone in ignorance whereas the 707 was engaged when it entered the MEZ but then avoided the kill zone when it detected the missile launch.

[stilton]

Thanks PN that makes sense. It appears the Learjet crew thought their height would protect them, I would imagine they would still have had considerable trepidation taking a civilian Aircraft into a war zone.


It was well deserved..

[Navaleye]

The plan was for Exeter to take out two Learjets as both were in range. Sadly the first bird failed to fly, but the second did and blew the tail off the Learjet and it spirraled down like a leaf. The screams of the crew were recorded in Fearless. I've not heard it but folks I know that have all said the same thing - "Good riddance!". It was a well laid trap by COMAW. BZ

[SLLC]

Nimrod vs 707. Can imagine long debates in the bar regarding the best tactics... single circle or two? Come on you AWIs out there.....

[wiggy]

As I heard it ( not long after the event for what it's worth) the Argentine Air Force were using the same set of data as the RN for Sea Dart/type 42......(there's a surprise). What they/the Learjet crew hadn't bargained on was the RN having a pop anyway and the intercept geometry favouring the missile.

[AirShowJunkie]

A couple of years ago i attended a lecture by Tony Blackman who i believe was BAe's chief test pilot at the time. He spoke about how the chaps at Woodford set about equipping the Nimrods with Sidewinder. Apparently after a photo of the armed MR2 'leaked' its way into the international press, the Argies decided they didn't fancy coming face to face with a large hemp coloured aircraft armed to the teeth.

[stilton]

And thanks Ray D for our informative answer.


Your encounter must have been quite a surprise !?

[Ray Dahvectac]

Your encounter must have been quite a surprise !?

For the crew of the 707, possibly. I don't recall any great fuss on our part (professional crews on 201 of course!) - and doubtless our ESM had picked up his radar transmissions some time earlier (though I don't remember hearing that either - maybe I was operating the galley at the time of first contact :confused: ).

Intelligence reports a few days later suggested that we had been visually identified as "a VC10". :ok:

[stilton]

Thanks again, can you tell me roughly where this encounter took place ?

[Ray Dahvectac]

Over the South Atlantic. :E

Sorry I can't be more specific. One or two of the other members of that crew are around and may be able to chip in.

[stilton]

Understand, it seems like the Nimrod was a lot more involved in the Falklands than previously thought.


The 'Chilean connection' is particularly interesting, no wonder Pinochet was allowed to go home.

[November4]

Next year's release of papers from 30 years ago by the National Records (or whoever it is) will interesting.....

[Ray Dahvectac]

No, no. The reason I can't be more specific is that 29 years later, memory has faded dramatically! :* I can't even remember if we tanked or not that trip, though I suspect we did.

To be honest, if you were to draw a line from Ascension Island to the Falklands, we were probably operating to the west of that line, at a range of around 800-1,000 miles from ASI.

The (MR) Nimrod's surveillance, comms, and potential SAR roles were called on from April 82 onwards.

[stilton]

thanks Ray

[Matoman]

You can read a bit more about Chile (http://www.spyflight.co.uk/chile.htm) and Nimrod operations during the Falklands War at this link.

Matoman

[Not Long Here]

Got to love this comment at the end of the article:

Certain previous histories of the Falklands Air War, noteably 'Sea Harrier over the Falklands' by Commander Sharkey Ward, have commented on how the RN Sea Harriers often had an uncanny ability to be in the right place at the right time when attacking Argentinean fighters arrived. We now know that it certainly wasn’t due to the telepathic ability of the brave, but rather self-serving and egotistical ‘Sharkey’ Ward, but was yet again down to the timely gathering and dissemination of accurate intelligence.:D

[Marcantilan]

Interesting info.

Did any Nimrod encounter soviet assets on the 1982 flights? I am aware that Bears were flying from Angola and a soviet spy ship was near Ascension, but any story to share?

Regards!

[The Old Fat One]

100 days by Sandy Woodward mentions a Nimrod being scrambled from Ascension to investigate a possub (possible submarine contact) by Fearless which was just off the Island on her southbound transit.

'Tis a true story...on reporting in the Nimrod (which was the first RAF aircraft to be carrying warshot torpedos since the second world war) was told by Fearless to investigate a possible soviet nuke.

As the navigator turned white at the thought of starting WW3, the lead wet took a glance (about 10 seconds) and casually downclassifed the contact to "merchant surface".

That's how good we were....it is no longer so.

PS

In this instance...I am the horses mouth.

PPS

Not to mention that the lead wet, and the rest of us, had hangovers that would have killed a small child at the time. Oh happy days.

[davejb]

Interesting,
we took off from ASI in response to HM greyships calling possub (I think it was a visual from some matelot of something that, very likely, was just a whale) - we flogged around for a while, trying to persuade the RN to scarper and let us lay lots of buoys sharpish. A* B**e, captain, Tacnav, All round Good Egg and bane of the Admiralty (in no particualr order) exchanged some quite interesting words with the higher up RN at the time. Don't remember him being particularly fazed at the thought of starting WW3 so it must have been a different sortie to yours <g>

Pretty sure we had things that went bang too - but maybe the intervening years have toyed with my memory on that one. Perhaps Fergineer can remember a bit more? Might have been Apr 18th on 243, as that was only 3 hrs 55 and all the other Corporate sorties were 9 - 10 hrs...

Dave

[fergineer]

Yes and Yes Dave and we were also handling hydraulic problems at the same time but hey it was all in a days work......we of course were all totally sober!!!!!We were full of things in the bay when we left ISK and things would not have been unloaded, know what I mean!!!!

[The Old Fat One]

I'll have to check in the attic, but off the top of my head...maybe 7-10 days before you and different sqn. I'm sure about the S'rays though...I can remember the conversation with the ground crew as if it were yesterday. I think every sortie after ours was armed from then on. We took over from 42 so were the first Kinloss crew on ASI. 42 had standard peacetime loads.

And as a matter or interest...remember "pelican ops". I named it.

I also told the plonker AEO who was waving around the A scope photos that he didn't understand SWater and identing from the Ascope was in its infancy and not be be over played......que *** sqn and the Type 42/Japanese Fishing Boat fiasco...also gets a mention in 100 days.

A**B**e...I loved flying with that guy. The combination of banter and professionalism kept us right at the top of our game. I was there the day he told the GSU nav to go **** himself and then told the rest of the Navs on the sqn to ignore everything the GSU said about ASW.

[Marcantilan]

You could find this page of Cambio 16 Spanish magazine interesting (april 1982):

(about Stingray deployment on Nimrod aircraft operating from ASI, Do you remember if the war load are Mk.44 / 46 o the brand new Stingrays?)

http://img839.imageshack.us/img839/5344/29022124759088861825421.jpg

Also, the SSV-501, the Soviet AGI near the island took this pic:

https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/_8XAc95JQygs/TcIJ_7hdHLI/AAAAAAAABI4/O7KTvWwhhFM/5.jpg

Do you have any memories about the Soviet Primorye spy ship? Or any encounter with an unknown sub?

Regards!

[fergineer]

Just checked the log book and sure enough we had a blue system failure on tha sortie but stayed on task till stood down from the Navy.
TOFO you wanna check your log book we flew down 13 April and I think we were the first Nimrod crew there think forty who took over from us, I stayed behind in ops till they had a bit more experience down there.

[The Old Fat One]

Yep My Bad

Transitted down 23 Apr (XV239), nightstopping Lajes, played cards with our US buddies and a 42 crew going the other way. Cue crew bollocking on arrival ASI.

DS to Fearless 26 Apr (XV239)...and yes, there was more than one Fearless generated possub at the time. Woodward talks about the "enthusiastic warfare team".

I do remember 3 crews jammed into one hut prior to the arrival of concertina city...so I guess yours was one of them? I remember one was ML and ours was SB, but can't remember the other, so I'm assuming it was a CXX crew???????

Still sure we were the first to fly with warshots....but I'm not gonna fight over it. Too Old.

[TBM-Legend]

try a ram attack next time...:rolleyes:

[1771 DELETE]

We flew with a mixture of 3X Stingray`s and 6X500pounders.
The bombs were for any surface ship trying to drop special forces on ASI and the torps were for any sub found south of the equator. Maggie had warned the Soviets to back off, which they did, removing the Charlie that had followed the TG south.
Hydraulics were a problem, we lost both the green and blue systems just after the second refuel bracket, it was an awful long way home on the red pump.

[500N]

Question re the subs and possibility of dropping something on them.

You mentioned Maggie told the Soviets to back off.

If you had found a sub close to the fleet down south (and it wasn't ours)
would you have dropped a torpedo and is that your decision or would it have gone right up to Sandy Woodward or even higher for a decision ?

Or would it depend on who's sub it was and what they were doing / intent ?

Thanks

[Faldo]

More like it was a long way home on the Yellow system for all those flying control servodynes. Only needed the Red system near the end for the happy landing bit, aarrgh the smell of OF4 !

[fergineer]

The smell was worse in the MK 1 which of course was what we were in, that and the Jez running did not make it comfortable in fact I seem to remember we were on O2 at the end of the sortie. Agree with the yellow system.....AAAAArgh its all coming back.

[davejb]

It's not ALL coming back Fergie me old mate,
check your logbook - we were Mk2 by then (finished converting the previous October) <g> We flew 230 down there via Gib (13 April KSS, 15th ASI) and 243 back. I seem to recall we relieved a 42 crew out there who'd actually just been passing through when it all blew up. I'm not 100% positive but I think we (120) deployed 2 crews initially, which would perhaps explain why there's been a bit of confusion about who got there first... the answer, of course, being 42 <g>

We were, then, non-AAR, of course...so had to hurl defiance at the Argie hordes from quite a long way away.
Dave

[Charlie Luncher]

TOFO
Old fella there are still some masters of the dark arts out there, you just have to keep yer hand in:E. I learnt a lot that still stands today from a few of you, just ask Dimmer Switch how he was going to please me:ooh:
Charlie sends
from were 500+ is luxury

[Victor1a]

No 42 (TB) Squadron deployed 2 aircraft and 3 crews to Ascension on 5th April, via a night stop in Lajes. The 3rd crew returned to UK as there was a shortage of accomodation, so we had 2 crews and 2 aircraft. My crew then flew the first sortie on the 7th. We were relieved by Kinloss crews and left for the Gibralter on 13th. To save fuel on the island we left with min fuel to get to Dakar.

[davejb]

Apologies,
I did of course mean 42 (Wildebeeste) sqn....<g>

[Marcantilan]

Thanks for the info about the payload.

Are you positive about the Charlie class, it was detected then? I heard about a Victor class boat trailing the fleet (along with the Zaporozhye AGI) but never about a Charlie.

Regards!

[Starter Crew]

I recall that night when we were loading up. We had 2 aircraft (all the slots that MRs were allowed on Wideawake), and had just helped the armourers to put SAR stuff in one of the planes, shortly after which the majority of them went off for a break, leaving only 2 qualified with us near the Nosey hangar.

So when the sh1t hit the fan, a bunch of us were pressed into service to offload the SAR we had just put in and help load torps (the one Sgt and J/T being slightly overstretched)... he told us after the crew arrived that he didn't know it was possible to get a load in the bay so quickly - esp with a load of fairy trades providing the "muscle".

I recall them being Stingrays, as we had taken delivery of a stack only that week.

[Geehovah]

This was as close as I ever got to it. The crew just didn't seem to want to stay and play

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v221/DeeGee/Aircraft/707QRA.jpg

[1771 DELETE]

I cant remember back 30 years as to what the ROE`s were but i think everything but the RN were game.
I also heard that the RN popped a seadart off against a Victor refueler (not a sub) luckily it did not reach its target.

[The Old Fat One]

Starter Crew

Spot on!!

We were "duty/6hr/SAR" and (as described above) fresh in theatre. It was late afternoon when we got the nod about the Fearless contact.

The nav (top guy...famous brother) was a little disconcerted. New weapons, ROEs (first real shooting amtch for all of us remember). Capt (SB) right no panic, it'll take the ground crew a couple of hours to get the load, so plenty of time to plan this out.

One minute later... phone rings...

"Aircraft ready...scramble"

XV239 5 hours day 3 hours night.

We did not know the classification until we "joined" and that's when the Nav pulled all the circuit breakers!

Lead Wet (SG) downgraded the whole thing after about 30 seconds after contact in anyway. (Charlie Luncher Note...as you'd expect, with the correct mixture of contempt and weary "I told you so").

Awesome wet team, the golfer, the Falmoth Master and the sleeper.

We were not AAR at that time (trials were in progress) and I don't think the 500 pounders were fitted until a bit later either. My log book shows us slinging them at Garvie Island on May 28th.

We did two stints

23 Apr to 5 May & 19 Jun to 3 July

Lots of memories...going on the wazz after a black buck raid was pretty high up the list. I broke a rib falling of the balcony of the exiles club.

PS

ROEs at the time disclosed in a number of books but I'm not sure they have yet been officially released so I'll stay stum. Sufficit to say they were only applicable to argies. Usual rules for Sovs (as they were then) applied.

PPS

You might well ask why we stayed up for 8 hours............

[500N]

Thanks, understand.

[ZH875]

You might well ask why we stayed up for 8 hours............


Obviously had 8 hours worth of food on board. :ok:

[The Old Fat One]

Seriously...

We were on ops...

We were away from home...

Nobody was counting....

We were getting rations from the extremely well equipped US dining facility on Wideawake...

We had enough food for 8 days!!!

Standard breakfast order

Six eggs easy over, bacon, hash browns, six slices of toast...hold the sausage. Chef didn't bat an eye.

[motleytwo]

Just been reading all this thread and checked el log book
we were in xv232 on 12 may 1982 on our way down to the Falklands to do our patrol when spotted the 707 going right to left in direction of task force. Co pilot wanted to chase but told him 707 was a tad faster than us. On 9 July (back in UK) did fighter affiliation with two phantoms one of which said he would tackle us on his own but he didnt know our Pilot was display pilot and we turn in on him and got growl off the sidewinder. On 22 july went back to ascension (XV234) and spent month aug doing work with Navy bringing the aircraft back on 19 aug.
No sidewinders fired for real.
Now anybody know where i can get a pylon for XV250 at Elvington want to fit sidewinders but havent got the correct pylon?

[RudolphHucker]

Great memories.... My log book shows us arriving at ASI on May 7th and we were the first AAR to arrive there. On one of our 19 hour sorties I remember an encounter with the 707 thus...... After about 6 hrs of transit and two refuellings we all had to climb into our immersion suits as we were entering the danger zone,
FSNB was on ESM, ......Capt ESM, Such and such radar bearing 215 degrees, fitted to the Argentinian 707.

Pause

ESM Capt, what does that mean to us?

Pause

FSNB (in a loud and dramatic voice) WE'RE ALL GOING TO DIEEEE!!!!

Cue laughter all round.

Great way to relieve the tension I can tell you.

I also remember doing fighter affil against the Tornadoes and winning. Once you got the Low and Slow, Tight circle tactic off pat they could'nt get a lock on, they could'nt fly slow enough to keep behind us.

[TheSmiter]

Rudolph, you have mail.

[Fake Sealion]

Interesting thread

What were the Learjets up to?

[500N]

Weren't they simulating strike aircraft looking to attack the fleet,
trying to draw the Harriers away ?

[Navaleye]

They were targets for HMS Exeter's Sea Dart system. Well done Hugh Balfour and his ops room team. Its a shame the first bird went rogue or they would have nailed two of them.

[500N]

Navaleye

What is the story behind the rogue missile.

What happened for it to go rogue and did
they find out why it went so ?

[Navaleye]

Sea Dart is a two stage weapon. it is launched by a solid rocket booster which accelerates the missile to a point where its Odin ramjet functions. in the first launch the ramjet failed to ignite and it went for a swim. The second worked perfectly. I spoke the AWO after the action and we could have got two out of four.

[Courtney Mil]

Guided missiles do it all the time, 500N. Going "rogue" probably isn't the right term, it's more a case that any given firing solution for a given missile has a certain "probability of kill" (Pk). There are dozens of ways that a missile's guidance, the geometry of the shot, missile systems (rocket motor, batteries, circuits and such), target manoeuvre, conditions, ECM, etc, can affect the missile and cause it to fail to acheive an intercept and even if it does, it still has to fuze and detonate successfully and in the right place.

Failures happen and in the heat of battle it's very hard to determine what went wrong; mostly they wouldn't even try to work out why, just move on and take the next shot. Sea Dart was quite an old system even then so its Pk may not have been that good.

I'm talking generally here, not about this specific firing. Others may know more about this one...

Courtney

(EDIT) Thank you Navaleye. I was posting as you did. I should have known you would know. :ok:

[500N]

Thank you Naval eye and Courtney :ok:

[Navaleye]

Actually Sea Dart was pretty new at the time and worked very well. On HMS Newcastle we used Sea Slug missiles fired by HMS Kent as targets and got a good tally.

Pk for Sea Dart post conflict was 52%.

[Heimdall]

http:// (http://www.spyflight.co.uk/learjet.htm) an article about the Learjet which covers the Falklands conflict with photos of the encounter with a Sea Dart.

Heimdall

[Daf Hucker]

Check your PM's

[PingDit]

I was flying out of ASI with 42 but it was after the main event. Can't remember exactly when as my log books went missing from the Sqn.
Concertina city was there and the VC10 guys next door to us were constantly moaning about our noisy parties.....
Anyway, I distinctly remember a Soviet Foxtrot to the east of the Falklands on the surface (probably the best place for him!) He stooged around for a week or two and then bailed out.

[Marcantilan]

Hello Pingdit,

Very interesting info about the Foxtrot near the islands. Do you remember if you were there on late 1982?

Finally, as you mention that you flew from ASI, I have info that a Victor-III (K-513) operated near Ascension Island on November 1982. Before that the boat was on West Africa (and went to Luanda)

Here is the picture of the happy crew crossing the equator, on November 3, 1982.

http://navy.webservis.ru/history/submarines/671/k513-3.jpg

Did you notice this one?

Regards!

[PingDit]

Hi Marcantilan,

yes - we were aware of your presence but weren't terribly bothered as you were kind enough to stay to the north of our operating area!

Ping:E

[Marcantilan]

Hello Ping,

Oh no, I was not there. I have limited experience in submarines, mostly at Disneyworld´s "20.000 leagues under the sea"

But I am following the Soviet involvment in the 1982 South Atlantic War, and I am somewhat puzzled about the lack of official "knowledge" about soviet submarines in the area.

For example, declass CIA´s "Soviet Naval Deployment Outside Home Waters 1982" does not mentions K-513 or the F-class down south.

http://img861.imageshack.us/img861/2870/ciareport1.jpg

http://img864.imageshack.us/img864/7292/ciareport2.jpg

Other sources claims that a Soviet sub was "probably" there, but no further info was released. Soviet sources are also vague.

Regards!

[PingDit]

Hi,
Your document makes mention of the Foxtrot in bullet point 1 in the subtitle 'West African Waters' though....

Regards,
Ping

[Marcantilan]

Hello Ping,

But, according the CIA, she kept patrolling West African waters (in fact, was there to protect soviet supply ships from South African "interference")

Also, I didn´t scan first page of the report, where the CIA analyst informed that no soviet vessel was detected down south.

Well, CIA is not antisubmarine-minded after all...

Long life to MPA!

Regards!

[Marcantilan]

Hello Pingdit and other members of the MPA community.

Just come across this in the 1982 declass papers:

http://img233.imageshack.us/img233/8838/prem1906272.jpg

And the interesting thing is this reply:

http://img28.imageshack.us/img28/8676/prem1906271.jpg

Anyone have details of that flight? Were pics taken?

Mistaken identity or a rogue carrier in South Atlantic waters?

Regards!

[Marcantilan]

Well, it is look like as a 206 Sqn flight. Regards,

[Javie Guerrero]

I have seen that there are crew members who were witnesses of the flight of May 12 (XV227 - 6K3F).

This flight has been disqualified can we comment on it?