Remote area flying

[dickair]

Hi all, will be doing some remote area flying where there will be no phone or naips. Once airbourne do i call centre for weather+/- flight details. Thanks

[compressor stall]

More importantly, if it's as remote as you've described, how are you going to hold SAR for your takeoff?

[Howard Hughes]

Do you have a HF?:ooh:

[dickair]

No HF. Not sure on how to go about SAR. Do I just nominate a time once airbourne maybe? I have always just used the flight note method on the fridge in times gone by, however I want to improve this. Just need to do it more often

[Unhinged]

If there's "no phone or naips", are you sure that there's VHF coverage at a height you care about ?

You can call Flightwatch for weather and flight details, and it is their job to take it, but you won't make any friends if you do it regularly on VHF.

If you're planning to fly where there's truly no other coverage, it's time to buy a satphone. Don't even think about complaining about the cost - it's mission-critical, safety-of-flight equipment.

[dickair]

Thanks for the SatPhone clue. Maybe my option for the remote areas.

[mcgrath50]

I assume you are private? Do you have an ELT?

If you are starting from somewhere without VHF, Landline or Mobile coverage I would recommend a satphone, you can rent them from 4WD/camping places. If this is a one off private trip that will work out cheaper and easier than HF. If you plan to regularly do this sort of flying though HF or your own satphone may be worth the investment.

[dickair]

This will be a private one off trip. It will involve flying from remote areas to Adeliade/Parafield. Will be ferrying items to and fro for about a week. So was wanting to find the best way to submit flight plans and weather etc.

[mcgrath50]

I'd probably go a hired satphone and an elt (check it works before going) especially if you are able to flightplan via the highways/major roads.

[bentleg]

Depends how remote you are going. Many stations and outback pubs have broadband, or at least telephone via microwave. ELT is a must.

PS - You can submit flight plans days ahead (but that doesnt help with weather).

[dickair]

Yes have a ELT. Will be flying around Innamincka/Moomba area of South Aust. I think the Pub is the go using Phone for flight plans

[Old Akro]

Moomba / Innaminka is not as remote as it seems. There is a good spread of stations. The VHF coverage is very good. There is also a fair number of overflying International aircraft (Woomera is frequently used as a fuel alternate to allow recalculating reserves), so there is typically someone to relay a call if there is any difficulty. There is also RPT to Broken Hill, Olympic Dam & Coober pedy. Unsure of Leigh Creek traffic, I think its pretty much just mining company aircraft. Plus of course Wrightsair and other Lake Air scenic flights. Many NDB beacons have long ranges (eg Woomera is in excess of 100nm). The Salt lakes & Flinders ranges give pretty good visual clues and the land has many good forced landing opportunities. Make sure you carry plenty of water - ie 10 litres per person. You do need to think about survival issues. You also need to manage your own hydration levels. Its not Kansas anymore Dorothy.

The Stations all have good internet and landline phone services. There will also be better Telstra NextG service than you might expect. But you need to have one of the better blue tick phones plus an external antennae. I carry a Sat phone (because I own a couple), but they can be difficult / expensive to hire. I wouldn't regard it as essential. A CB and a list of the station repeaters in the area might an alternate option. If you are forced down, the fastest person to get you will probably be a station.

You can seek weather / submit plans on area freq. But depending on workload they can get a bit prickly about it. I tend to use a phone away card from a landline, then call in the air. Don't be afraid to set some ops normal times, or create some reporting points. If for no other reason than getting to cool air, I'd be cruising as high as possible (8,000 foot plus).

As has been extensively covered, fuel planning is an important area. Don't expect to rock up and have it on tap. Plan your stops, call ahead.

[dickair]

Thanks Old Akro, good tips taken on board. Fuel is my major concern and will be refuelling at Centres Like Pt Augusta or Broken Hill just to give me the extra Buffer (Have a C182) even thou I may be fine with normal holdings. I am aiming to be more savvy with long distance flying as compared to just doing circuit flying as my norm. Time to leave the nest!

[Paul Alfred]

LEC - OOM is good for VHF above 8000 but you may lose it a little bit before the change from 121.2 - 119.5 around Lake Blanche. Telstra 3G is also good out of LEC for a while and then coming into the OOM area. You will lose VHF into INN around 2000ft so SAR could be cancelled in a high circuit although a sat phone call on the ground is your safest option...

Cheers PA

[bentleg]

You will lose VHF into INN around 2000ft so SAR could be cancelled in a high circuit although a sat phone call on the ground is your safest option...

There are landline phones at Innamincka. You could cancel SAR by 'phone on the ground.

[Old Akro]

Just for interest, we have been experimenting with Next G phones recently and still can't better the old LG TU550 with an external aerial. We bought a couple of the current Telstra blue tick phones (made by ZTE) that take external aerials. The flip phone was a piece of excrement that lasted 1 day. The Hershey bar one with the pull up aerial is sort of OK, but pretty much won't connect to anything bluetooth other than a ZTE device. Consequently, we picked up some of the last new-old-stock LG units on ebay. Hopefully by the time our current fleet of LG phones expire Telstra gets its act together with better phones.

I like Port Augusta. Its an easy place to fly into, the Mobil swipe bowser is easy and the Whiting at the Augusta Hotel fabulous. The fuel guys at Olympic Dam are good to deal with, but you need to ring first to co-ordinate with the RPT.

[Old Akro]

And if you don't have religion about monitoring 121.5 on the second radio you should. Basically all the overflying RPT will be monitoring it, so 121.5 is an important freq. in an emergency. Boyd Munro wrote a good article on the subject a few years ago and I think its still on the Airsafety website. There are threads on the subject here too.

[Howard Hughes]

Old akro have you tried a Nokia 6720 (classic)? I have had one for work for about two years, it is also a blue tick phone and the reception is amazing. Flying around NSW, I am very rarely without coverage on Telstra!:ok:

PS: No external antenna required!

[Old Akro]

We primarily use our phones on the ground. We bought the predecessor to the Nokia 6720 and we put up with it for about a week before we gave it to the office book keeper. We can get 75km range from a base station in a car on the ground with the LG TU550 plus a magnetic mount antennae.

I've become slack and now only carry the iphone (plus sat phone when remote), but with the LG TU550 and a pencil antennae attached, I only had a couple of black spots flying between Melbourne and Port Augusta, then would have reception about half the time to Woomera.

[carro]

Submit flight plans in advance - ask one of the operators in Adelaide nicely if you may use a computer, or alternatively, use your phone when you get coverage in Adelaide.

[Old Akro]

Yes, but you can only submit 24hr in advance. I print out all my flight plans (using nil wind), so I have all the paperwork I need. Submit what I can before I leave, but I still typically need a landline and phone away card to get weather and read out the pre-prepared plan for the flight home.

[bentleg]

you can only submit 24hr in advance

? You can submit flght plans with ETD's up to 7 days in advance. I have done it. (AIP ENR 1.10-10 Appendix 2)

[Aussie Bob]

The question I ask you folk; why is getting a plan in so important?

You have a well serviced aircraft, some water, some food, a functional epirb, perhaps a handheld, your in cavok in the desert and you want to fly!

Just get in, start up and take off. Worked for me for over 20 years and I can't see why it won't work for me for the next 20 years.

Sort out some WX airborne, call the tower at a VFR reporting point or whatever, just start and go.

Are your aircraft unreliable? Are you paranoid? Do you really think SAR is so important that you will never fly without it? Is this 2011 or the 1930's?

[bentleg]

why is getting a plan in so important?


So the SAR people know where to come and look. Also makes it much easier when you want to enter CTA (and yes I do know there is not much CTA in remote areas).

[Aussie Bob]

So the SAR people know where to come and lookLook for what? Are you planning on crashing? If misfortune strikes, besides being the unluckiest guy on the planet you have two beacons right? One fixed and one portable. Plus you have tucker and water right? Hopefully a book as well. If you are so worried about the worst how do you get to the airport?

Also makes it much easier when you want to enter CTAThis is total BS for VFR. If I turn up unannounced at a VFR reporting point with no plan just one minute ahead of you with your plan in the system I will get the clearance first. I never file VFR plans, I always get quick VFR clearances and I fly VFR in and out of CTA often.

[Mimpe]

We did a few very long routes through NT and WA including the tanami route from Tennant Creek to Hall creek - this was our style.We used a lovely old Piper Saratoga TAS 154 knots which was respectable.

Every flight had a flight plan submitted by internet via command software.
Every route adhered to scrupulously, with a sartime cleared by phone call on the ground upon arrival. Navigation by NDBs mandatory, and check your GPS reception at destoinations prior to take - off .
We had HF radio and new how to use it.
dios, Two VHS, one ndb, one VOR, two gps units with back up batteries for both, and TWO 406 gps emer4gency beacons.
One hired sat phone. Lots of food and 25 litres of water.
We actually carried a mini printer and printed the weather off the net, but you can get it via Naips with a 3G phone and note the main details by hand.

So thats how the paranoid do it........theres surprisingly little vhf cover out there.

We had a ball - the only class C was Katherine and they were no problem - they actually held up a flight of F 18's to let us land which was nice

[Old Akro]

Whenever I've tried to submit more than 24hr in advance its been rejected and I thought there was an explanation in the NAIPS instructions about that. But maybe I'm getting the date formatting wrong. I'll try again.

I basically only file IFR so that's partly why I file plans, but I think Aussie Bob's question is answered by Desert Flower's post of today. There are places I fly where it would take 2 or more days for someone to come and get you. I think you need everything you can get on your side. Plus the failures are never what you expect. Over the years (primarily to & from Woomera) and over a range of aircraft I've had an alternator failure at night in cloud North of Port Augusta, Vacuum pump failure on descent through a layer into Mildura plus 2 or 3 radio related failures. I've also had unforecast 60 kt headwinds that has caused a fuel diversion. The emergency to plan for is not a single event nor clear cut. It is overwhelmingly unlikely to be an engine failure in cruise followed by a descent with plenty of time for mayday calls. Also (as I'm appears to be the case with the Wilcannia incident) you're likely to need to be talking with both overflying traffic (probably on 121.5) and Centre on the area frequency.

I'll do VFR flights between stations or short flights like Woomera - Port Augusta, especially when someone on the ground knows about it. But for something like Adelaide to Innaminka (which is where the thread started) its prudent to put in a plan.

Having a plan in the system is also a bit of a guard against things like the recent RFDS / Commander Darter incident at Mt Gambier recently. Whether in CTA or not an Adelaide - Innaminka leg cuts obliquely across the control steps, so there will be cross track traffic.

[bentleg]

Whenever I've tried to submit more than 24hr in advance its been rejected and I thought there was an explanation in the NAIPS instructions about that. But maybe I'm getting the date formatting wrong. I'll try again.

To forward date a flight plan put dd in front of the ETD - 190200 for 0200 on the 19th.

Look for what? Are you planning on crashing? If misfortune strikes, besides being the unluckiest guy on the planet you have two beacons right? One fixed and one portable. Plus you have tucker and water right? Hopefully a book as well. If you are so worried about the worst how do you get to the airport?

I guess if you take that approach you dont wear a seat belt in your car.............:ugh:


This is total BS for VFR. If I turn up unannounced at a VFR reporting point with no plan just one minute ahead of you with your plan in the system I will get the clearance first. I never file VFR plans, I always get quick VFR clearances and I fly VFR in and out of CTA often.

Ask an ATCer whether they like plans pre-filed........they are busy enough now without adding to their workload.

Like OldAkro I also file plans because I fly IFR even when conditions are VFR, the only exception being short hops that people know about. IFR has heaps of benefits, including advice of other traffic.

[Aussie Bob]

Ask an ATCer whether they like plans pre-filed........they are busy enough now without adding to their workload

I did just this very recently, I asked a senior ATC: "I come and go (VFR) all the time without a plan, would you prefer if I submit one"?

Emphatically the answer was; "makes no difference to me whatsoever".

Now this is just one controller, I would be interested to hear from others but you can't tell me a plan makes a hapeth of difference at a GAAP! sorry, these guys are too busy to read what is expected in VFR traffic.

On departure I always just start up in CTA and start the prcess by stating "XXX with flight details". I do the same at VFR reporting points when inbound. works for me just fine and seems to work for ATC as well.

BTW I wear a seatbelt in both a car and a plane :rolleyes:

[Mimpe]

a lodged flight plan for long flights over unpopulated areas is a good safety discipline if adhered to.

[dickair]

May I say a big thanks to those who gave me valid advice. I have never been tested and put through some extreme flying. I ended up with a 30 min flight turned into a 7 hour delay and 3 hour flight time. Lucky I had water and food as tips given. Also I had the ability o stay overnight if required. I had never flown in such extreme wind in the far north of south Australia last week. Thank you

[Mimpe]

hi dickair

we had weather through the NT and had a magic unexpected 2 night layover in magical Tennant Creek......we certainly had fun finding some good food and a decent place to stay.
:hmm: