Mid-Summer Madness

[jackjack08]

Dear PPruners

I was enjoying a cuppa at an airfield today when a Jet Ranger landed very very close to another helicopter parked on the fuelling pumps( approximate distance 10-12 feet between rotor tip and the end of the other aircraft tail boom). The pilot got out rotors running, refuelled the aircraft and got back in then re-positioned the aircraft to the north side close to the clubhouse. The pilot then hung one foot out of the cockpit whilst on the shutdown process, chopped the throttle and immediately jumped out to go in to the establishment whilst the rotors continued to run down at high speed.
I spoke to the Captain of the other aircraft involved and he said he was seriously thinking of reporting this individual.

What's your view ?

[OvertHawk]

Not sure that i would be too worried about the proximity per-se - I have frequently (under considered circumstances) worked with less tip clearance than that. I would be more concerned about the affect of the downwash on the other aircraft.

As for getting out and refuelling with no one at the controls - Can't remember what the 206 Flt Manual says about that but i think it's a no-no isn't it? - someone current on the 206 will tell us i'm sure. If it's a UK AOC holder then it's probably in breach of their Ops Manual. If it's private then it's almost certainly breaking his insurance.

Now... There will be people from many different backgrounds who will jump in and say "it's no problem" and, under certain circumstances i could agree, but i don't think that just to save a couple of minuted and a startup would justify it in my book.

As rushing off to get a cup of tea afterwards.....well.... When is a helicopter considered to be in flight?

"From the first time it moves under it's own power for the purpose of flight until the rotors have stopped"

Anyone think that the insurance company would pay up if anything went wrong?

Not sure i'd call the CAA but i'd definitely consider a call to his Company / Flying club / Syndicate.

Just my tuppence worth

OH

[Heli-Jock]

When you say the pilot got out "rotors running" was the engine powering the blades? Not that it matters much,,this is unbelieveable and the word "Cowboy" comes to mind! :=
I would have no hesitation in calling the authorities on this one!
The pilot and pax should stay buckled up till rotors come to a Complete stop "without exception"!

Where were you up North? Do you mean Scotland? There are not many Jet Rangers in Scotland to be honest i can only think of one and its based in Inverness but sometimes lives near Arran! Do you have the reg?

HJ

[Hedge36]

Don't people just thump on each other at the fuel pumps any more? Invoke the authorities for every perceived infraction, then wonder why the authorities have such a stranglehold on aviation. Brilliant.

[mfriskel]

The correct course of action (if you thought he was unsafe or illegal) would be to talk to him about it first. Then see where that leads you. Being a tattle-tale right out of the gate is not really cricket is it? If you ahve concerns and express them, maybe he will see your point. If he tells you to piss-off then you would probably be justified in speaking to the airfield manager as a next step.

I just witnessed a pilot lose his certificate privileges for 120 days because someone complained to the FAA. He was well within the letter of the regulation but the FAA inspectors testified to the judge by adding words to the regulation. Be very careful how you handle a "one-off", but if a guy is a habitual violator (is he actually violating something) then take it to the next step. If he rents the machine or works for someone, they will straighten him out if he was wrong.
Getting out with blades turning seems more a matter for the airfield admin than going to the Government Aviation Authorities. Remember- you can't regulate common sense or good judgement, but you can sure regulate the hell out of the rest of us while you are trying to.

To make a long story short- grow a set of balls and go talk to the guy before you do something that you or I may regret later.

[206 jock]

Report him for what? Being a bit of a cowboy?

If the 'other pilot' had a problem, take it up with the guy who has upset him, not invoke the authorities.

I once used ground power to start my machine, then got out to unplug it. There was no one at the controls. I feel so dirty:sad: can someone report me as no doubt something good will come of it.

[md 600 driver]

You will probably find the jet ranger pilot was the owner of the establishment and the aircraft he parked next too was his

[hands_on123]

More importantly, did the pilot have a high-viz vest on? And pay his landing/circuit fee?

[chopjock]

jj,
Busy bodies / do gooders like you should mind your own business. What's wrong with dangling a foot out the door, perhaps he was hot and was trying to relax or something.
I suppose you think he should still be strapped in, feet on the peddles and door shut?
The safety of the aircraft is the responsibility of the pilot, nothing happened so obviously not a problem then.:rolleyes:

[315B]

More importantly, did the pilot have a high-viz vest on? And pay his landing/circuit fee?
My thought's also:p

[SilsoeSid]

Wot no photos ?
In this day and age there should be plenty of cameras about !

I'm not up to speed on B206 these days, but surely it's not the best of ideas to leave any helicopter to do it's own thing is it. After all, if all thats needed to control one is to keep the controls locked it one place, flying them would be a piece of cake. :hmm:

Bell 206B JetRanger (Helicopter) C-FDOE (http://www.tsb.gc.ca/eng/rapports-reports/aviation/1997/a97w0130/a97w0130.asp)


Summary
After landing the Bell 206B JetRanger helicopter, serial number 381, at a private campground near Nordegg, Alberta, the pilot rolled the throttle to idle, tightened the cyclic and collective friction controls, and briefed the fixed-wing pilot who was sitting in the left seat to hold the left-side dual controls steady. The helicopter pilot then exited the helicopter, without shutting down the engine, and ran approximately 150 feet to a recreational trailer. As he was returning to the helicopter, he stopped briefly to talk to the campground caretaker who was standing approximately 100 feet to the left of the helicopter. Immediately, thereafter, a clunking sound similar to that of an out-of-balance washing machine was heard and the helicopter began to rock fore and aft on the skids. The main rotor disc was observed to be tilted to the extreme forward position. The pilot ran back to the helicopter, ducked under the main rotor disc from the left side, ran around the front of the helicopter, and climbed into the right seat. He immediately attempted to stabilize the helicopter by applying collective and increasing rotor speed. The oscillations diminished initially and then increased dramatically when the weight was reduced on the skids. The pilot then lowered the collective and shut down the engine. When he applied the rotor brake after shutdown a loud "clunk" was heard before the rotor blades stopped turning. Examination determined that the swashplate drive collar set and both main rotor pitch links were fractured. None of the four occupants on board the helicopter sustained injury.


IMHO, perhaps you should have had a word in his/her shell like, after all you were happy to speak to the other pilot. Even better, both of you could have enquired about his actions.

[Camp Freddie]

Nobody is mentioning what the regs actually say, here's what I found.

Article 93 of the ANO, pilot to remain at controls and be secured in seat.

(6) An operator must not permit a helicopter rotor to be turned under power for the purpose of making a flight unless there is a person at the controls entitled in accordance with article 50 to act as pilot-in-command of the helicopter.

So the shutdown does not contradict this but the refuel does (as he was refuelling for the purpose of making a flight - good English) I would talk to the man first, but be clear what you are talking about.

Times have really changed on this one, I am 90% sure there was an episode of treasure hunt where the program begins with your man Keith standing next to the 206 while it runs on it's own.

Also a former chief pilot of mine advised me that to get the job done I should do exactly this if required, but also if something went wrong that he would deny telling me that (I never did)

[Agaricus bisporus]

Blimey! I may have been out of helos for a while but have we really descended to this sort of petty backstabbery?

Landing 12ft away? Well if you have to reach a pump you may have to. Nothing wrong with that per se. On my ex-company's pad we'd have to park with maybe 6 ft tip clearance with another 206/355 both rotors running. So bloody what? Christ! We flew formation not a lot further apart than that! Grow up!

How the fark does a 206 pilot handle pax away from base if not by climbing out rotors running? The manual said idle, frictions on, HYD off = OK. We couldn't have done the job withiout that in many cases.
Hot refuels happened all the time.
Climbing out to do your own hot refuel though - questionable. Avoidable, I'd say(no reason not to shut down) so no good excuse. But just dob him in to the CAA? Spiteful twisted little rats do that. Why not talk to him iof it bothers you so much. Its hardly a hanging offense.

Foot outside the door? Normal hot weather 206 shutdown position.

Walk away from it rotors coasting down? Bloody unprofessional. Go remonstrate, but as above re CAA unless you've spoken to him many times before about it.

Strewth.

[ShyTorque]

Landing close is OK provided it doesn't endanger people or property. I once had to break very bad news to the pilot of a Bell 222 on a charter flight at Ascot. Another so-called 'pilot' (!) overflew his aircraft at low level causing the main blade to bounce hard off the top of the tailboom. The TRDS cowling was badly dented, but worse, the tail rotor drive shaft inside was also written off. The second part of the charter was cancelled and the aircraft had to be fetched off the site on a low-loader.

Leaving a helicopter with engine(s) running and unmanned is illegal in UK, irrespective of what the "stick up for your mates at all costs" folk here think about it.

I'd also say the pilot was lazy and very unprofessional to be carrying out a RRRF in that way. What would he have actually done if the situation resulted in a fire, either to the installation or the aircraft?

Unfortunately, some pilots are thick enough not to want to be told they have made a mistake by other pilots. Not too long back I watched a so-called "professional" in a AS355 hover taxy over the starboard wing of a light fixed wing aircraft waiting to leave flying school dispersal at an airport, rather than wait a minute off to one side to let him taxy past. The control surfaces were blown all over the place. This could easily have caused major damage. Thankfully the aircraft had an instructor on board who grabbed the yoke and prevented anything hitting the stops. The thought of an inexperienced solo student continuing out to fly in an aircraft with damaged control hinges....enough said. I spoke to the pilot and told him it was a very dangerous thing he did and why. He was completely unrepentent and became quite angry with me. He actually said the problem was an ATC issue because they cleared him to dispersal so I should ring ATC if I wanted to make anything of it!

He then high hover taxied downwind from dispersal with pax on board - well in the avoid curve.

[rotorrookie]

I was up in highlands slinging in middle of no-where today and went out 4 times with rotors running.... sh**... I should be jail. :eek:

Many JR's don't have rotor brake so staying inside until the rotor comes to complete stop can take up to 10 min, so if the area is clear and no risk of people coming too close, it should be ok, shutting down not buckled up in the seat is another story, but one foot out is just normal 206 air-condition Foot outside the door? Normal hot weather 206 shutdown position.


But parking and hovering so close to another a/c is something that should not be done if you don't have to, but is it possible that the other helicopter was parked in such way near the pump that he had no way to refuel other than like he did?


Why did you not just have a word with the jockey? I would have done that if his action was bothering me that much. But this new trend to report to authorities every minor s**t all the time is one of the most depressing things in aviation now and worst when it comes from inside the industry,

[phoenix4]

Think I understand this now. You were drinking tea having left your helicopter on the fuel pump.
Having not been refuelled hot by your crew and then parking it at your own base some 50 metres away!

If I have this right you then watched as a jet ranger arrived for fuel (still drinking tea) making no effort to assist the pilot who was forced to either park up somewhere else shut down stop strapped in until everything had stopped moving about 10 mins if no brake fitted! And go find your lazy arse and get you to move your machine the pilot then made the decision that he could without danger to the other aircraft position and still get fuel. Next problem for the jet ranger pilot to work past was he was mindful the other helicopters important role in life and at any time it may be required to rush off without delay on a very important mission so he opted on refuelling hot without help ok ok not the best plan but by now why were you still drinking tea and not out there helping him?!!! You could have gone over or sent one of your crew and let the pilot back to his controls and once fuelling was completed in a more appropriate manner he could have repositioned to the parking area were you could taken the opportunity to apologise to him for hogging the pumps!

Shutdown you tell two tales here he had the door open and belts off hot day was it? then when the engine was cut he got out, now ok this is not right but I am sure it was not the second the engine was cut but more like when the blades had slowed down to allow the control stops to work. I have sat in a jet ranger many times waiting for the blades to completely stop (one without brake) thinking of what I could do of any good sat in it with the blades turning that slow control would have no effect on anything or would I be better off out side making sure no one was walking up toward the rear.

To drink tea and then pass public comment makes you a Tw_t without personal comment first, then if you were to go to the CAA I would not want to consider the effect it would have on you and team has backstabbing tale telling do goodies when it was you that forced the situation in the first place by bad airmanship.

[carsickpuppy]

Jack
Pragmatically JR pilot did nothing wrong, as long as he took into consideration downwash consequences to the parked aircaft.
Leave the authorities out of it.

The pilot then hung one foot out of the cockpit whilst on the shutdown

I can think of a better place for the foot, your head is already there.

[OvertHawk]

Hang on a minute......

Has anyone actually read JJ's post? I mean actually read it rather than scanning it and seeing what they want to see?? :ugh:

All he has done is relate a series of events, mention someone else's stated opinion and asked for comments.

At no time has he drawn any conclusions of his own or suggested reporting anyone.

:mad:

OH

[Flying Lawyer]

OvertHawk At no time has he drawn any conclusions of his own or suggested reporting anyone.

I assume people are responding to some of the comments following JJ's.
eg Post #3: I would have no hesitation in calling the authorities on this one!

(An approach with which I completely, no reservations, disagree.)



FL

[HillerBee]

I don't really like the rotors running refuel, I personally would never call the Authorities to report a fellow pilot. Nobody is perfect.

[mfriskel]

On the spot corrections when needed, peer to peer, not wimp to cop.
If we helicopter pilots policed out own better, and mentored our own better, we might have less problems.

[OvertHawk]

Fair point Flying Lawyer (as your points invariably are).

I was referring to the comments by Chopjock and Carsickpuppy that seemed to be directed at JJ directly.

I agree that i don't think we should go around reporting people to the CAA (at least not without exploring other avenues first). Apart from anything else, it is likely to be the least effective means of remedying whatever infraction you consider them guilty of. As i said in my earlier post, a call to the AOC holder or flying club is much more likely to result in a change in the offending practice than a call to the CAA.

Safe and sensible flying to one and all!
OH

[Savoia]

.
Ho hum, with the benefit of some non-aviation skills my interpretation of that which drives such a question (and which, not knowing JJ, can only use generalisations) is that such a query would usually reveal a person interested in aviation (hence his presence at the airfield). His reference to enjoying a 'cuppa' would (in generic terms) suggest his desire to be viewed as 'normal' or 'one of the crowd' ie. he is keen to be viewed as a 'friend'.

The double use of the adverb 'very' suggests potential partiality and in any formal analysis would bring into question the dimensions described thereafter with the potential for them to either be inaccurate or exaggerated. Reference to rotor tips and tail booms disclose an acute interest in helicopters reinforcing the initial supposition.

While there are no obvious emotional inflections in his description of the process of hot-refuelling the references (in the following sentence) to the leg out the door, 'chopping' the throttle and 'immediately' jumping out of the aircraft while the rotors were running down at 'high speed' would leave no uncertainty in the minds of any professional analyst that the writer held strong views regarding the actions of the pilot.

The fact that the author went to speak with pilot of the other aircraft and uses the title Captain with a capital 'c' both confirms his 'interest' in the event as well as his regard for pilots in general.

Regarding an overall summary, you may draw your own conclusions.

On a side note; most professionals who fly regularly would never 'dob' a fellow pilot in with the authorities. That is an extreme measure for extreme circumstances. I will confess to my fellow Rotorheads that among those I have employed over the years I quickly discovered an aversion to 'snitches' and those who would come to me to 'report' on one of their colleagues were meet with the foulest of receptions commencing with 'Why didn't you take this up with the individual concerned!'

My recommendation to JJ: Watch Al Pacino's sterling performance in the closing scenes of 'The Scent of A Woman'

[OvertHawk]

Sav'

Can't fault any of that. :ok:

I'll just shut up now.

OH

[Flaxton Flyer]

Calm down children, nobody is reporting anybody to the CAA. It was my aircraft sitting on the pumps, so no point anyone accusing JackJack of being a lazy arse!

I have had a word with the airport manager and that's the end of it.

However, just to clear up a few points from Phoenix's post -

Rather than waste Charity money on two expensive start cycles, we often leave the aircraft on the pumps unless and / or until we are informed that another aircraft will be coming in for fuel. Airport management are familiar with this. Did the 206 pilot call ahead and inform the airport he was coming in for fuel or just turn up ad-hoc?

RR refuel is not an approved SOP for our unit.

We cannot see the refuelling area from our hut, so were unaware at the time how close the 206 was to our aircraft, or that single-manned rotors running refuelling was taking place.

We did not know the pilot was the sole occupant of the aircraft was, and even if we had done, nobody would have been helping him with an RRR (see above). Not to mention the fact that they are employed as paramedics not airfield refuellers, and I'm sure that YAS H+S would be overjoyed to hear they were refuelling private individual's aircraft in works time...

It was only after the 206 had departed that we became fully aware of what had actually happened, so talking to the pilot at the time wasn't an option.

I think there are two parts to this - firstly was the actual incident safe / legal / sensible and secondly what should be done about it (if anything)?

Now I can see that leaving my aircraft on the pumps was a contributory factor here. So apologies to the 206 pilot if that put him under any pressure.

For the sake of this discussion, here's my thoughts at the time.

I see a helicopter turning and burning with no-one at the controls 10 feet from my £3m helicopter and a 20,000 litre tanker of fuel with no-one to help if anything goes wrong. No-one at the controls is in contravention of what is clearly stated in the RFM therefore IF there was an accident there would be no way in hell that the insurance would be paying out. It doesn't matter how small the risk of an accident, surely we have to plan on the worst-case scenario at all times? I personally don't think that this was a safe and legal thing to do, or that it was justifiable on the basis that the pumps were blocked. Feel free to disagree!!

As to what should be done about it. I admit that my first thoughts, whilst still concerned about the possible consequences of the incident, were to report it to someone. In the end that someone was the Airport Manager, informally, and it is now up to him to have a quiet word or do whatever he feels fit.

That then is my take on it. I'm sure there are as many opinions out there as there are Ppruners. I think that JackJack's post, rather than be a "whistleblower" event has provoked a nice little debate here.

In true Pprune style there are supporters, opposers, don't have a cluers, and everything in between. I understand that there will always be a split about whether or not an incident like this should be reported, but it does concern me that we can't even agree on here sometimes on what are pretty basic principles of flight safety or airmanship. But better people than me have struggled with that one, no doubt.

As a small example, reference to the foot out of the door , I was in Long Beach airport many years ago and a 206L was being ground run on a dolly.The pilot was talking to the engineer who was stood alongside. The
pilot was sat with his backside in the seat, and feet dangling over the side, no belts on etc. I don't know whether he caught the collective with his sleeve, or it popped up on its own, but the heli spun to the right and fell of the dolly, scattering pieces of 206L all over the pad and through the adjacent office windows. Explain that to your boss / insurance company..Now, I'm obviously not saying that the same would happen with a running-down 206, but bad habits etc etc. Moral - the SIMPLEST of things can catch us out the minute we drop our guard. Don't hasten the day of your departure by being sloppy!!

FF

[Flying Lawyer]

Savoia

People say lawyers make things unnecessarily complicated. Blimey! :rolleyes:

JJ clearly knows more than Joe Public about flying helicopters. He's unlikely to be a professional pilot, given that he bothered to post the 'incident' here, but he's familiar with the jargon so probably works in the helicopter industry.
eg An air ambulance paramedic.

[EN48]

the SIMPLEST of things can catch us out the minute we drop our guard


Amen, bro! Reading a few hundred accident reports will overwhelmingly confirm this! My SOP's preclude hot refueling and leaving the ship with the rotors turning, but then I have no good reason to do so. Either increases risk under most circumstances but perhaps not always to the point of being "unsafe."

As to reporting inappropriate pilot actions, I wouldnt do it except my own to NASA ASRS if appropriate, or to possibly have an informal discussion with another pilot. I treat these as a learning experience. As to talking to the offender, each time I have done so, I have gotten the bird or a "f*** you" in response, so I am more inclined to let these guys hang themselves - and they will someday. :cool:

I also would not leave my acft "sitting on the pumps" for any longer time than needed to refuel - quite inconsiderate IMHO, and, it would seem, a contributing factor to the incident discussed here. :=

[SilsoeSid]

I don't really like the rotors running refuel, I personally would never call the Authorities to report a fellow pilot. Nobody is perfect.

As to reporting inappropriate pilot actions, I wouldnt do it except my own to NASA ASRS if appropriate, or to possibly have an informal discussion with another pilot. I treat these as a learning experience.


Perhaps if we were to have a few more words in ears, simply to make people aware that they may need to think a little more about what they consider safe practises, pilots such as Mark Weir would still be with us. Isn't it always the things that we always do day in, day out, that turn and bite us. A lot of pilots out there might not have to cover CRM in order to keep flying, but we can still do our bit to make sure something else doesn't stop them.

As to talking to the offender, each time I have done so, I have gotten the bird or a "f*** you" in response, so I am more inclined to let these guys hang themselves - and they will someday. :cool:

Maybe that will be the initial reaction, but perhaps they will actually think about it once they have a quiet minute or so alone and your words wouldn't have been wasted. At that moment in time, to them saving face is more important than saving life :ok:

They may well end up hanging themselves, but that doesn't mean that we should build the gallows for them, by not saying anything to anyone.


http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/446140-cumbria-helicopter-crash-discussion.html
http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/445106-cumbria-helicopter-crash-tributes-condolences.html

[EN48]

They may well end up hanging themselves, but that doesn't mean that we should build the gallows for them, by not saying anything to anyone.



I can only concur with this broad sentiment. Putting it into effective practice is easier said than done. From a very great distance, and reading just the information posted on pprune, it would be my opinion that an intervention in the Cumbria situation anything short of a license suspension would have made no difference.

[toptobottom]

it would be my opinion that an intervention in the Cumbria situation anything short of a license suspension would have made no difference.

Why's that then?

[SilsoeSid]

Putting it into effective practice is easier said than done.

Very true :(

[Heli-Jock]

Ok Ok Ok, maybe "calling the authorities" was a bit extreme! But i had a splitting sore head yesterday and maybe wasn't at my best to give my view on this event. :ugh:
I actually thought i had an incline who would be at the controls though and knew it wouldn't be the first, or last time, incidents of this type would occur.

The airport manager would have been my first port of call. Having a word with the pilot these days, tends to lead to an argument and that would have spoiled my "Cup of tea"!

They may well end up hanging themselves, but that doesn't mean that we should build the gallows for them, by not saying anything to anyone.

On that above statement i agree whole heartedly with Silo Sid,,

[EN48]

Why's that then?

Relying solely on published accounts, it would seem that the pilot involved had a personal style which hindered effective aeronautical decision making and rendered him less than receptive to constructive advice.

[Savoia]

.
FL: Greetings. I've certainly heard of you - though not sure if we've met. When I signed-up to PPRuNe a year ago I trawled various back-threads and came across an image you had posted at someones funeral (can't remember who) but David Boyce and co. were present. David knew my godfather (Col. Bob Smith) fairly well. In 1980 Bob helped form Aviation Consultants International along with Norman Todd (British Airways) and David Scott the astronaut as well as others whose names escape my memory but it is possible that you may have known some of these characters.

Re: Today's post; a pedantic affair I admit!

Rotors Turning - Unsupervised

I've not employed the search facility (apologies SP) but I'm sure this must be a well-worn subject on Rotorheads. From my utility-flying days in Africa and Papua New Guinea I can relate that abandoning the controls to supervise passenger embarkation/disembarkation (as well as the loading of various small items of cargo) was, with the smaller craft such as 206s and 350s etc., a necessity. In fact, to have remained at the controls would, in many circumstances, have resulted in disaster. Anyone who has flown small aircraft on intensive utility ops (landing everywhere [usually the middle of nowhere] all the time) would, I am sure, agree. It is simply unfeasible to remain at the controls as the external risks far outweigh those of abandoning the controls.

In 1988 while with Rotorwork I engaged the PNG DCA over this issue with the view to obtaining an exemption from following the recommended flight manual procedures based on the 'extenuating' circumstances so prevalent in PNG. I don't know where this dialogue ended-up but I recall hearing that neighbouring Australia's CASA had approved something similar (can anyone confirm?) and in which case 'bravo' to the ever-pragmatic Aussies!

In Europe and the US (and doubtless elsewhere) there is perhaps far less need to 'jump out' in order to attend to external duties as, presumably, one is (in most cases) in a position to make prior arrangements for ground support. Failing that (and in non-urgent circumstances) one can always shut down.

https://lh6.googleusercontent.com/-pA9jALlpgj4/Thh5VtsTTmI/AAAAAAAAD4E/eGwFf_yu1I8/s640/SE-HVI%252520L3%252520Skuolla%252520Padjelanta%252520NP%2525201 2%252520Jul%25252010%252520%252528Anton%252520Asplund%252529 .jpg
A 206L LongRanger III belonging to Sweden's 'FiskFlyg' turns and burns 'unsupervised' in the Padjelanta National Park on 12th July 2010 (Photo: Anton Asplund)

[EN48]

It is simply unfeasible to remain at the controls


Is it also infeasible to shut down to perform the loading, fueling etc? I can imagine that in a few circumstances, shutting down may not be a good idea, but I have yet to encounter these circumstances. I note that you finally allow for that, but am wondering why one generally would not do so? I have heard the argument about "saving cycles" ad nauseum. Cycles are part and parcel of turbine helicopters, and to those whose only rationale is saving cycles, I say "get over it!" Similar view on saving time except in really unusual ops - combat, paramilitary, etc where the participants are highly trained. By not shutting down, one is making a tradeoff to accept increased risk for some other perceived benefit. Might work out, might not. There is an NTSB accident report involving a B407 in which the pilot exited with the engine running to accomplish something (I dont recall) and then walked back into the MR blades. The PILOT for God's sake! He now has an eternity to consider how much the time saved was worth. **** can happen to anyone.

[Savoia]

.
As mentioned, anyone who has worked intensive utility (especially in remote areas where multiple landings are required over relatively short distances) would understand the challenges. Everything from pax trying to walk into the t/r to feeding all manner of objects through the m/r to breaking the passenger doors! And .. in some nations .. it makes no difference how many briefings the pax receive or in which language .. even if its signing!

[Flaxton Flyer]

It's an interesting dilemma...the only way to guarantee as near as possible to complete safety is to shut down between every sector, load your kit, and give all the passengers a briefing before loading them in and checking the belts are fastened, the doors are closed etc. However, if you did that working utility you would never get the job done.

So there may be pressure on you as a pilot to hot load, leave the cab with the rotors running and do all the other things we instinctively know are not the most sensible options, to get the job done.

Savoia..IF you had an accident operating like this, would your authority throw the book at you or support you? I ask this as one member of my authority was trying to tell us recently that we had to brief the crew between every flight - i.e we fly to a HEMS tasking, pick up a patient and before we take-off we have to give the paramedics and doctors a pre-flight brief...

FF

[Savoia]

.
Flaxton, again (as mentioned above) I engaged the local aviation authority on this issue in 1988 (this was Papua New Guinea) and which initiative was taken over once I moved on. The concensus among the majority of operators that I was in touch with was that there was no way of avoiding occasions where the PIC abandoned the controls. In many cases the drop-off and recovery locations for geologists, seismic crews etc. were so remote and so numerous there was simply no alternative but to supervise the ground activities once the aircraft had landed.

This was an issue for the smaller ships only. 212s, Pumas, Vertols and the Russian aircraft would carry a loadmaster who was kept busy whenever the aircraft touched the ground.

[SilsoeSid]

FiskFlyg, an interesting safety record;

Fiskflyg AB - Sweden - an unofficial history! (http://www.seabee.info/seabee_operator_fiskflyg.htm)

Crashed 1963-08-03. 4 people killed.
Crashed 1965-06-18.
Destroyed by fire 1989-09-22.
Crashed 1974/75?
Crashed 1976-08-?? Tysfjord, Norway.
Crashed 2005-08-23
Crashed 1980-09-04 Ritjemokk.
Crashed?

Ok, so its out of the companies total lifetime fleet of 21 and only 2 were rotary, but...:eek:

[SilsoeSid]

The concensus among the majority of operators that I was in touch with was that there was no way of avoiding occasions where the PIC abandoned the controls. In many cases the drop-off and recovery locations for geologists, seismic crews etc. were so remote and so numerous there was simply no alternative but to supervise the ground activities once the aircraft had landed.

I'm confused as to how a location can be safe enough to leave the ac rotors running but not safe enough to close down :confused:

[Savoia]

.
No reference to 'unsafe' landing locations - however the number of locations (different locations for typically one insertion and extraction each) precluded the feasible forward deployment of ground crews who might otherwise have been used to receive such landings. You would in effect double the contracted flying hours.

Re: shutting down .. what, five times an hour?

[Flying Lawyer]

Savoia
You probably saw David Boyce's photograph in post 200 of this thread: http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/200715-sqd-ldr-ray-hanna-afc-6.html.
I met your Godfather in Cape Town in February 2009 at this event (http://www.pprune.org/aviation-history-nostalgia/265662-alex-henshaw-rip-2.html#post4976331) (See post 44) organised by the Guild of Air Pilots (http://www.gapan.org), of which he has been a member for almost 50 years. A splendid character! There are some pictures of him here (http://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu12/GAPAN-SA/_MG_6892.jpg) and here (http://i629.photobucket.com/albums/uu12/GAPAN-SA/_MG_6999.jpg). He had fallen and broken his ankle earlier in the day, but he didn't allow that to prevent him attending! He was about 88 at the time - I hope he's still going strong.

Tudor Owen

FL

[Savoia]

.
Fantastic! :ok:

What a great thread and a wonderful tribute to one of Britain's aviation pioneers. I have for many years admired the photos taken of Henshaw with Churchill.

[TRC]

Thread Creep Alert

[Flying Lawyer]

Fair point.
Back to the thread .....

SS I'm confused as to how a location can be safe enough to leave the ac rotors running but not safe enough to close down

The explanation sometimes given by pilots who operate in remote locations in some parts of the world is that the risk of not shutting down has to be balanced against the risk of not being able to re-start.

======

EN48
I can imagine that in a few circumstances, shutting down may not be a good idea, but I have yet to encounter these circumstances.
As you are not a professional pilot, it's unlikely that you will.

[TRC]

There are acceptable reasons for a pilot to leave a machine at ground idle, as has been posted - in the bush, at high altitude, etc. - where it is considered to be less of a risk than shutting down and take a chance on re-starting, or safer to board or discharge passengers/freight, etc.

However, the OP tells us that this occurred at an airfield in the UK. Somewhere where it is illegal under the ANO to leave a helicopter to fend for itself under power - and I would have thought totally un-necessary given that there ought to be ground-staff to operate fuel pumps, etc.

I knew when I saw the original post that there would be the inevitable 'it's wrong - no, it's right' argument about a pilot leaving the helicopter with the rotors under power, or immediately after shutdown - but in this instance I think it was totally wrong, and un-acceptable at an airfield.

As for the foot-out-of-the-door and the chop-throttle-and-depart debate, it's an attitude thing. Some pilots display and practice a more professional attitude than others.

I know which I prefer in my pilots.

[SilsoeSid]

The explanation sometimes given by pilots who operate in remote locations in some parts of the world is that the risk of not shutting down has to be balanced against the risk of not being able to re-start.

Are there any actual figures on failed starts?
Any changes to company SOP's to reflect this, after experiencing a trend that is?

Out of interest and cantbearsedtogoogleit-itis, are there many types in the civil world with clutches that could at least get rid of the rotor danger aspect?


AOPA Hover Power » Blog Archive » Hot or cold (http://blog.aopa.org/helicopter/?p=342)

[John Eacott]

The OP had a (slightly emotive) reference to foot out of the door & exiting with the blades winding down at speed. Anyone who's operated a JetBox in high temps without a gas strut to open the door soon learns to wedge their right foot in the door frame to get a bit of cooling during the 2 minute engine off procedure: nothing wrong with that whatsoever, assuming the pilot remained strapped in and at the controls! After a 2 minute idle, I find it difficult to believe the the rotors continued to run down at high speed. :hmm:

Whenever the subject of hot refuels and/or leaving the controls whilst the helicopter is running comes up on Rotorheads there is always a huge discussion, usually following the same split. Those who operate where it is a normal, accepted but controlled procedure, and those who can't see past the operation they are in where fluffy kittens will die by the hundreds if anyone should even contemplate such a heinous crime :p

CASA have mandated the parameters for hot refuelling and for leaving the controls of a helicopter whilst running, and they have served me (and others) well over the years. ISTR that the North Sea also allowed hot refuelling back when Pontius was a pilot, has that changed and if so, why?

There are parts of helicopter operations that need and benefit from lateral thinking. Just because the CAA prohibits something doesn't necessarily mean that it is intrinsically wrong or unsafe :=

[EN48]

As you are not a professional pilot, it's unlikely that you will.

Well ... true in the sense that I am not compensated for landing in tiny jungle clearings in third world countries ... but I train with professionals to professional standards and take quiite seriously the task of flying with skill, awareness, and judgment.

In any event, the incident that started this thread had nothing to do with third world jungles, but a routine refueling at UK airport. (AFAIK, the UK isnt yet considered third world by most.) This is something I do every time I fly and IMHO see little need under these circumstances to accept the additional risk of hot refueling or leaving the acft with the rotors turning.

As a refugee from 40 years in the FW world, I am still surprised at the relatively "wild west" mindset that is very much in evidence in the RW world. (I dont have any problem with making ESSENTIAL allowances for unusual ops or difficult circumstances provided an appropriate level of judgment/risk management is applied.)

[ShyTorque]

John, rotors turning refuelling is done at many places in UK; e.g. London Heliport and Sywell, Blackbushe etc. Also it is completely commonplace in the military. All have been risk assessed and procedures are in place to minimise those risks.

However, the procedure isn't done by the (alone) pilot with the engine running and no-one manning the controls simply to save on engine cycles. Seems to me that the holes in the cheese are being unnecessarily put in close alignment in that instance.

If rotors running refuelling is required by a company they can apply for an exemption/permission to disregard the terms of the Air Navigation Order. However, terms and conditions will be attached. I know that the above situation wouldn't be allowed by such a permission.

My aircraft has cycle counts on the undercarriage, as well as on the engines. Maybe it would be acceptable to hover-jump passengers to save unnecessary cycles; after all, we used to do that in the military all the time. :)

[TRC]

.... in high temps

We're in England here... not the tropics.


CASA have mandated the parameters for hot refuelling and for leaving the controls of a helicopter whilst running

So have the CAA - hot refuelling is permitted under certain circumstances. The pilot leaving the controls is not permitted. Especially at a bloody airfield with staff. Come on - this isn't a bush operation, it's at an operational airfield, presumably during opening hours. Get some perspective here. We all know what happens away from civililisation, but there is no excuse for this to happen under these conditions..

[Savoia]

.

AFAIK, the UK isnt yet considered third world by most ..

Give it time! ;)

[SilsoeSid]

100% agree with STq's last post.

Rotors running refuels have a time and a place, we do them in Police Ops if the situation dictates. Even then, we have the pilot at the controls, one man at the nozzle and the other at the pump. Yes we have the manpower to do it and could probably do with another to oversee the whole operation. Even in the rare times it is done it is by no means taken lightly.

Sometimes a particular job needs this to happen and when it does it would probably only be when another aircraft cannot give cover when the first ac needs to get away for fuel. So expect this to happen more often once NPAS kick in!



What amazes me, getting back to the 'leaving the ac controls unmanned' discussion, is that the same people that tell us we don't need to fly around with 2 engines because reliability is so good, are the same people that tell us they can't shut down because they might not be able to start up again ! :rolleyes:

[Flying Lawyer]

What amazes me, getting back to the 'leaving the ac controls unmanned' discussion, is that the same people that tell us we don't need to fly around with 2 engines because reliability is so good, are the same people that tell us they can't shut down because they might not be able to start up again !

I doubt it if there any stats for failed starts but my impression, no more, is that they are more common than failures in flight.


FL

[SilsoeSid]

I doubt it if there any stats for failed starts but my impression, no more, is that they are more common than failures in flight.

That may well be so FL, but I don't read too many posts starting with...'There I was shut down in the middle of......' and ending with, '...and we had to get the engineers out to us.'

If when selecting 'RUN' the Gazelle didn't start, all we had to do was hit the starter gennie with a hammer like handy thing ;)

[phoenix4]

So Flaxon Flyer in reference to your comment “RR refuel is not an approved SOP for our unit". Why was your ship hot fuelled this afternoon, I stand corrected you’re the lazy arse pump hogger not jack jack who’s just a snake in the grass tell tail.

[Flying Lawyer]

EN48As a refugee from 40 years in the FW world, I am still surprised at the relatively "wild west" mindset that is very much in evidence in the RW world.

Are you referring to professional helicopter pilots or private pilots, or both?

It's a bold assertion from a private pilot who has been flying helicopters for only 4 years.
It's also very different from the impression I've formed. I too fly FW and rotary.
You said on another thread that your (very experienced) "principal instructor" tells you that you fly "better than many he has worked with." Are you perhaps allowing yourself to be a little carried away by his charm/flattery?

I dont have any problem with making ESSENTIAL allowances for unusual ops or difficult circumstances provided an appropriate level of judgment/risk management is applied.
That's very gracious of you.


FL

[EN48]

FL,

Are you referring to professional helicopter pilots or private pilots, or both?

Most of my contacts, both direct and indirect, have been with professional pilots (military, HEMS, instructors, examiners, FAA, charter, etc), some of them posters here. The wild west mindset I referred to is in part due to the relatively young age of the helicopter industry compared to FW aviation, to the relatively small size of the helicopter fleet, and to the relatively slow technological progress of RW compared to FW, and is diminishing as the RW world changes to a more structured and "professional" environment, no doubt to the dismay of some. My comment was in comparison to the FW world, not in absolute terms.


It's a bold assertion from a private pilot


Actually, to be accurate, a commercial pilot. I have been fortunate to have worked with a number of highly experienced helicopter pilots, instructors, and examiners in the relatively short time I have been flying helicopters and have made it a point to learn what I can from them, both in a formal and informal sense. Sitting around the dinner table and just listening to these guys is a most productive learning experience, especially regarding issues like the main topic of this thread.


Are you perhaps allowing yourself to be a little carried away by his charm/flattery?


Carried away to where? If you knew this instructor, you would be very clear that charm/flattery is not part of his repertoire. He speaks his mind and isnt all that concerned by what anyone thinks of what he says. With something like 25,000 hours in helicopters he has no need to flatter anyone. If anything he is more demanding than most I have worked with. A pro in every sense of the word. Additionally, with a 45 year involvement in aviation, including training at some of the better known training organizations, one develops something of a sense of what professional grade flying looks like - something I am working hard to achieve and maintain. I dont recall the context of the thread from which you are quoting, but I assure you that the point was not to promote my flying skills.

That's very gracious of you.

If by this you intend sarcasm, that is not unexpected from a certain small segment of those who post here. If not, thank you. Your comment arises from a comment I made re safety. Aviation safety is a special interest area for me and I have done considerable work in this area, including developing a safety management system for owner flown helicopters which has received favorable reviews from a range of aviation safety and insurance professionals. I dont hold myself out as an expert in this area, but do feel competent to express an opinion now and then.

[SilsoeSid]

FL to EN48
You said on another thread that your (very experienced) "principal instructor" tells you that you fly "better than many he has worked with."

EN, can you confirm for us please that when you say your 'principal instructor', you mean someone that you pay to teach you to fly? :ok:


Another EN classic;
"I have learned something from every instructor I have worked with."

I wonder what they have learnt from working with you ! :rolleyes:


EN48, or is that 78, spills his beans (http://www.pprune.org/rotorheads/444917-older-students-not-another-am-i-too-old-thread.html#post6294047)

[EN48]

It seems that its my turn in the barrel at pprune.


Another EN classic;
"I have learned something from every instructor I have worked with."



Taken out of context, this does sound ridiculous. I should have been more precise and said that I have learned something NEW from each instuctor. Each teaches a bit differently and not all cover the same topics. I have found it useful to fly with several different instructors to fill in the gaps.


I wonder what they have learnt from working with you !


No need to wonder - here are some examples:

1. My background in computer engineering has resulted in a particular interest in avionics. The aircraft I have operated over the years have typically been equipped with advanced avionics (for the time) and my instructors were often unfamiliar with this equipment. At their request, I have briefed my instructors on many occasions on the use of this equipment.

2. As an owner operator, one is also the de facto Director of Maintenance - not turning wrenches, but assuring that necessary work is done on a timely basis. This has led me to be diligent about having current, detailed knowledge regarding AD's, SB's, SL's etc. for airframe, engine, and avionics. Instructors who train in a variety of aircraft are often not up to speed on these details, and are usually interested in knowing more.

your (very experienced) "principal instructor" tells you that you fly "better than many he has worked with."

This quote was taken out of context by FL from a thread dealing with the topic of "how old is too old to learn to fly a helicopter." My post made the point that age, per se, is not all that important, and went on to cite some personal data to support this point, as did several other posters. My post was intended to encourage those who might be reluctant because of age to give helicopter flying a try. I consider myself very much a newbie in the helicopter world, and was not intending to be boastful. If it sounded this way, it is is more due to my poor writing skills rather than attitude.

[What Limits]

This reminds me of an incident that happened to a former employer's aircraft.

The SOP was that the pilots could land at natural gas well sites in an R44, roll the throttle to idle, switch off the governor and leave the aircraft with engine and rotors turning.

One day, Joe Dynamic is at the last well of the day so he rolls off the throttle and jumps out forgetting to switch off the governor. Now in Frank's Finest the governor is set to 'catch' at around 80%, and on this aircraft the idle was a little unstable. Now Joe is busy at the well site and then he hears the unmistakeable sound of his aircraft making its way to flight idle!

By the time Joe gets to the aircraft, the collective has vibrated its way up and the whole helicopter is trying to make a bid for freedom. Luckily no-one got hurt and nothing got bent.

As you can imagine, the SOP changed to full shut down every time.

Then Joe is at a well site in winter, its minus 29C and its the last visit of the day as it will be dark in half an hour. Joe hits the starter button and the whole component parts company with the mounting flange.

You can't bump start an R44.

So Joe is faced with a night out in -55C. But wait, this well has a winter road access! 1 hour later Joe is safely aboard Buddy's truck as they speed back to camp for tea and medals.

I fly the Jet Ranger and I get out with the rotors turning and I stick my foot in the door to get some air into that thing. As ST said, everything is carefully risk assessed and fully justified.

[Flaxton Flyer]

Phoenix4....

So Flaxon Flyer in reference to your comment “RR refuel is not an approved SOP for our unit". Why was your ship hot fuelled this afternoon,

RRR is not an SOP. Neither is hover deplaning / emplaning. That doesn't mean they are not an option at the pilot's discretion.

I stand corrected you’re the lazy arse pump hogger

Yes I am. But that's not an offence is it? Unlike leaving your aircraft running with no pilot at the controls.

not jack jack who’s just a snake in the grass tell tail.


Yes I agree. No one likes a tell tale. On that subject, any idea who EMailed the Charity on Friday to dob in the pilot for the hanging offence of pump-hogging?

FF



10th Jul 2011 18:23

[Savoia]

.
Think I may have found the answer to JJ's concern about Bell 206 Mid-summer madness (below):

elY8uJ6xN7M&playnext=1&list=PL2234438D12271434

JJ: How does this 'airmanship' compare with that of the 206 driver you saw the other day?

[phoenix4]

Flaxtion Flyer.....
Re Email to employs, please correct me if I am wrong the email was marked for the attention of the pilot with the topic heading ”Please info your pilot” was opened by yourself It was polite and finished with the name, address, post code , lat , long, telephone number , mobile telephone number of the sender ?
If you need more assistance with working out who sent the email good help us all !!!!
I have to say I am very disappointed by the hole suggested incident your comments about not helping another pilot who was struggling due to your airmanship was the most disappointing part, also your 3 million pound ship parked out of sight of your crew? Where would one start with that one without what could have been left in it or thought to have been left in it anything could have happened (if a jet ranger that had PPR for fuel via the phone made calls on route could sneak up to it pretty much else could have) I have always admired the work you do and always held you all in the upmost! Given assistance with relay RT calls giving actual weather conditions and with fund raising nothing I am sure you give a dam about that but for what’s it worth you can count completely on my assistance if you were ever in need and I am sure of every other aviator that reads this !
Thought for the day.
Not everything is always has it first appears .Think about what you know for sure consider the information from others with care don’t let it become your own facts.

p

[misterbonkers]

ek ek ek calm down calm down!

Multiflight gave GNAAS a small bowser to use to ease refuelling issues at Durham Tees Valley, Perhaps YAA could have a similar thing going at Bagby?

Phoenix - YAA crew may well have removed their drugs bag when they left the helicopter on the pumps as it might have needed restocking after the previous job.

Can't everyone just kiss and make-up? :)