Weststar 139 tail incident 30th June 2011?

[IntheTin]

Anyone heard any news. Heard they lost a tail! :eek:

[Turkeyslapper]

Yep



http://i54.photobucket.com/albums/g100/KiwiNed/269885_10150223581160894_731495893_7694442_3850820_n.jpg

[Savoia]

.
The tally to-date:

1
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-qenrCmrBBgc/TgwM0vXeR7I/AAAAAAAADwM/RPcEE4Nm74M/A7-CHG%252520Gulf%252520Hel%25252025%252520Aug%2525202009%25252 0Doha%252520Qatar.jpg
A7-GHC Doha, Qatar: 25th August 2009

2
https://lh4.googleusercontent.com/-r28JL--J5Yw/TgwM8vtpnGI/AAAAAAAADwU/ZZLrGzVY-zI/B-MHJ%252520Sky%252520Shuttle%2525203%252520Jul%25252010%25252 0Hong%252520Kong.jpg
B-MHJ Hong Kong: 3rd July 2010

3
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/-7p193HukJGM/Tb7oL3BZK4I/AAAAAAAADv8/HZRp5QlhFWg/IMG_2958.jpg
A7-GHA Doha, Qatar: 2nd May 2011

4
https://lh5.googleusercontent.com/-gE54i9TvYKk/TgwNDZA3y9I/AAAAAAAADwc/bFdD3LWvHx4/Westar%252520tail%252520loss.jpg
9M-??? Malaysia: 30th June 2011

.

[birrddog]

Speculation tally...

1xBonding failure
2xTR Gearbox (1x misplaced tool)
1x??

[Savoia]

.
Not really speculating. Simply a list of 139 tail-related incidents.

[flyingboa]

1 Tail Boom failure connected to a previous damage on the same tail leading to collapse;
2 Loss of TRB in flight - possible Bird Strike - investigation ongoing;
3 Loss of TRB o the ground, investigation ongoing;
4 Separation of the tail rotor fin - possible hard landing - investigation ongoing

[industry insider]

Aircraft being used for training? Hard landing?

Even so, it doesn't seem to take much to break the tail off these 139s.

[helihub]

Sav- item 3 was A7-GHA at Doha Intnl Apt (you know where to look for that info... ;-) )

All - you may find searches easier if you spell Weststar correctly - yes, it has a double "st" in the middle

[Outwest]

Not wanting to jump on the speculation bandwagon, but the latest photo failure point seems to coincide with where the main rotor might impact the boom.

[noooby]

"Even so, it doesn't seem to take much to break the tail off these 139s."

It hit the ground so hard the freakin main gear is wiped off! Of course the tailboom is going to be damaged!!!

[jemax]

I find it fairly interesting that you have four tail rotor separations of one type or another with no significant injury or loss of life.
Fairly fortunate I feel.

[industry insider]

noooby

"It hit the ground so hard the freakin main gear is wiped off! Of course the tailboom is going to be damaged!!!"

You may well be right, it does seem down at the rear.

[Savoia]

.
Exceedingly fortunate Jemax and probably why quite a few in the industry make light of the 139's tail escapades .. even referring to it as the 'Italian Doberman'!

However, when one of these incidents does result in loss of life we may see a sharp rise in apprehension towards the 139 - specifically regarding its tail section. Let's hope such a day does not arrive.

[helihub]

It hit the ground so hard the freakin main gear is wiped off!

the latest photo failure point seems to coincide with where the main rotor might impact the boom.

From what I am hearing, the training captain (with two students) aborted the first flight of the day due to some sort of handling problem and he just let it go down like a stone, causing the main blades flex enough to chop the tail. Is it true the TC only had 200 hours on type? The ground clearance of an AW139 is not that much, and the pic of the lonely tail rotor has a grounded helicopter behind, consistent with a very heavy landing and the u/c being pushed up into the fuselage which then ends up sitting on the tarmac.

[tottigol]

The ground clearance of what rotating part is not that much?:rolleyes:

[500e]

Seems a bit far back for blade strike, but time will tell.

The tyres, certainly.http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/nerd.gif
love this comment UL:D:D:D

[helihub]

The ground clearance of what rotating part is not that much?

Ground clearance from lowest point of fuselage to the tarmac

[Encyclo]

Happy to see rotorcraft certified to the latest standards are proving to be much safer than old pieces of junk that have been out there for 20+ years (212/412/76) :ugh:

At least the 'old stuff' does tend to stay in one piece :}

[Savoia]

.
You have to bear in mind that we now live in a disposable culture Encyclo! ;)

[industry insider]

"From what I am hearing, the training captain (with two students) aborted the first flight of the day due to some sort of handling problem and he just let it go down like a stone, causing the main blades flex enough to chop the tail."


I wonder if the handling problem was related to the tail before the landing?

Weststar has grounded all 139s apparently.

[Encyclo]

That's scary Savoia :sad:

I'm more than 20 years old... how much longer till i'm also considered 'obsolescent':E

[Ian Corrigible]

the latest photo failure point seems to coincide with where the main rotor might impact the boom

causing the main blades flex enough to chop the tail

Fairly sure this was not a MR strike. Other photos do not seem to show any damage to the MRBs.

http://182.54.218.29/rss/files/350x350.sciSC.2011.06.30.ht110630w06.JPG

http://mynewshub.my/bm/files/2011/06/coptercrash_main-565x322.jpg

Aircraft was reportedly delivered from the Cascina Costa line three months ago. Pilot reported control issues at 50 ft.

Article 1 (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ms&u=http://mynewshub.my/bm/2011/06/30/helikopter-terhempas-di-subang-3-krew-terselamat/&ei=DHkMTqqbJOGnsALv27mTCg&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=9&ved=0CGgQ7gEwCA&prev=/search%3Fq%3Daw139%2Bweststar%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbo%3D1%2 6biw%3D995%26bih%3D632%26tbs%3Dqdr:d%26prmd%3Divns)

Article 2 (http://translate.google.com/translate?hl=en&sl=ms&u=http://www.bernama.com/bernama/v5/bm/newsindex.php%3Fid%3D598034&ei=hHgMTuK1IcKpsALyp4D4CQ&sa=X&oi=translate&ct=result&resnum=7&ved=0CFoQ7gEwBg&prev=/search%3Fq%3Daw139%2Bweststar%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DX%26tbo%3D1%2 6biw%3D995%26bih%3D632%26tbs%3Dqdr:d%26prmd%3Divns)

I/C

[Outwest]

Managing Director, what was that you were saying about sim training being too expensive ;)

[Lola171]

Saw a photo of the marks of the TR blades deep in the asphalt. Tend to believe they were attached and they hit the ground with tail

[industry insider]

Not sure about that Lola, I would have thought that the TR blades still attached to the hub in the picture would have shown more damage if it was a blade/ground strike given that they must turn at around 1200 rpm.

Could it be that there was a prior failure (drive?) to the hard landing which in turn may have caused the pylon separation?

Its interesting that its two exactly opposite blades which are missing.

[Sanus]

Lola - For the TRB's to still be attached and rotating but contacting the runway wouldn't the aircraft be nose high to the point of being almost vertical?

[Epiphany]

I hear that the Malaysians are looking for a foreigner to blame but there were none on board at the time.:E

[spinwing]

Mmmm ....


I hear that the Malaysians are looking for a foreigner to blame but there were none on board at the time.


Surely there must've been one standing around minding his own business somewhere on the airfield .... !!

:E

[Soave_Pilot]

they can probably add a couple of seat covers to the bill...:}:}:}

[VTA]

Epiphany, you don,t know just how true your comments are !!!

[Epiphany]

Lola - For the TRB's to still be attached and rotating but contacting the runway wouldn't the aircraft be nose high to the point of being almost vertical?

Attempting a CAT A helipad profile reject massively over gross training weight and with the aft C of G well out of limits might just do that?

[AWrated]

Firstly, as an AW139 TC my thoughts go out to the TC involved.

Epiphany - "Attempting a CAT A helipad profile reject massively over gross training weight and with the aft C of G well out of limits might just do that?"

Are you confirming or speculating that it was a Helipad reject and CoG out of limit?

He has had a bad day in the office and doesn't need any speculating.

[FlyHiGuy]

It seems that the gents in Milan were able to get the DCA and others to process the FDR data very quickly as they have now informed customers of the following :

There are two main points:
1.) They were doing training flight (cat A OEI procedures)
2.)It is confirmed that the accident had nothing to do with the tail rotor.

Further FDR data analysis has already confirmed that there was no mechanical failure. *

**DCA has not grounded the fleet and Weststar, after a precautionary stop, is now resuming flights with no limitations.

If this deduction of it having to be only pilot error that caused this mishap, one unique scenario has developed and - though highly presumptuous, is worthy of some thought:

At least 1 Instructor PIlot is an ex-RMAF Black Hawk pilot, is it possible that (if he was indeed the PIC conducting the training on this flight) he momentarily had a lapse in awareness and reverted to his Black Hawk procedures where the extreme aft-tail tailwheel arrangement is used as THE primary landing point and even a pivot point for arresting descent rate in the final 25-50 feet of descent and touchdown ? This could explain how such an extreme nose up attitude could have been allowed so late in the OEI approach.

Only the operator would know who was the PIC for this flight and if he is an ex-BH pilot but maybe this could explain it. . . but not excuse it.

[Mast Bumper]

If it really turns out to be a cat A OEI training accident, I still have several unanswered questions. Primarily I am confused as to why the operator is not conducting this type of training in a full motion simulator? Isn't the associated risk the primary driving reason for the simulator? Why would an operator do this type of training in-house?

[FlyHiGuy]

Yes - MB; a good question indeed. Not to be too cheeky but your location "over there" probably doesn't mean "over HERE" too (in Asia) but it could be a different attitude here. THis being said, it has been trickling around for a number of months now that almost the entire group of pilots there in KL had difficulty getting through their training. That being said, practice OEI procedures are probably much more difficult than the real ones due to them being done in the worst possible time to occur. Balance this with the chances of an actual engine failure ever happening in a pilot's career, it could be argued that it is best never to practice the procedure. Certainly their SOP's should be reviewed and revised if necessary. In any case, I am sure that their insurance rate will be increased quite a bit immediately and could potentially be a big commercial factor for them until they demonstrate a complete change to conducting operations safely - revenue and non-rev flight . . . It would be interesting to hear from someone directly inside Weststar. My only in is with DCA :-(

[Epiphany]

Primarily I am confused as to why the operator is not conducting this type of training in a full motion simulator? Isn't the associated risk the primary driving reason for the simulator? Why would an operator do this type of training in-house?

You obviously have not tried to book simulator slots in the worlds only two available full-motion AW139 simulators for 90 pilots at short notice. There aren't any. Pilots cannot fly without current LPC's/OPC's and these checks require OEI practice. This training can, and is, achieved in the aircraft quite safely by many operators throughout the world.

A pre-requisite for this, however, is competent training staff and a culture that believes in safety, procedures, checklists and CRM. If the operator does not utilise competent, experienced type trainers, and also employs pilots who do not use correct procedures, checklists or CRM then accidents will happen - as they do in Malaysia with monotonous regularity.

There are competent, experienced AW139 trainers available to this operator (or so I am told) but unfortunately these pilots are not Malaysian and are therefore treated as a threat by the local pilots and not utilised. How long before the next accident?

[helihub]

the worlds only two available full-motion AW139 simulators

business opportunity :ok:

[Sanus]

Regardless of the cause I find it extraordinary that the tail pylon just 'snaps off' in this way. This sort of incident in all other types I am aware of would result in the tail cone distorting and thereby absorbing some of the impact reaction.

The 139 tailcone structure appears rigid (even brittle) and very unforgiving.

[spinwing]

Mmmm ....

As usual Epiphany is spot on with his observations .... :D


:hmm:

[tottigol]

Is that document written in English?:ugh:

[Torquetalk]

If only Westar's instructors were using the IHST Training Toolkit this would not have happened

That's probably true because they would still be reading it :zzz:

[outhouse]

Did think that three AW139 simulators with European approvals are around.*:ok:

[Safeway]

I know of a very experienced (high time AW139 - more than 1500 hours on type alone) Check & Training Pilot who looked at a job with this company but of course they were paying peanuts.....so.....you know the rest!!!! It would seem that companies invest in aircraft but as always cut short on investing in training. If the company had booked training slots when they signed the purchase order, of course they would be accomodated at the Agusta training facility....its a matter of negotiation and planning, and acquiring experience. This type of helicopter has a habit of biting those who dont have experience or respect for its design characteristics, especially the tail low attitude. Its made me sit up and pay attention after operating other aircraft types. Nevertheless a powerful beast that is a pleasure to fly.....I have no issue with flying it. When Bristow and CHC have a few with tail problems only then will I sit up and take notice!!!

[apexx]

i've seen it in the paper..
thank god that it's no death incidence.

[gnz]

Isn't the ship fitted with an OEI training mode?

If yes, does anybody could explain how it reacts in case of mishap (low RRPM, real engine loss,...)?

[hihover]

gnz - yes it is fitted with an OEI Training switch. Its an excellent system, very realistic during the "fail" selection. Tq is limited on both engines when the switch is in use, if RRPM reduces to 87% or if either engine has a problem then the system will switch itself off.

TM

[gnz]

Thanks hihover,

I guess the Tq limitation in training mode is conservative.
Is the "supposed" maneuver (Helipad sim OEI landing), recoverable with 87% RRPM, in case of mishandling?
What's the automatic engine rating for the "wake up" engine?

[hihover]

gnz

Yes, it is easily recoverable, if the exercise is set up properly (AUM limits, safe trg area, take off brief etc etc). But remember, it still has to be flown out of the situation into which you put the aircraft. The system only detects adverse conditions and switches off the OEI Trg mode. Reversion is instantaneous, but you still have to fly it, either onto the ground or away from the ground. Bear in mind that - if the RRPM is drooping, an instant reversion to AEO will give you more power, but you will still have to recover RRPM in the normal manner.

Not sure what you mean in the last sentence. Both engines are running and sharing the load equally, only the indications on one of the displays is showing a failed engine, the other display shows actual engine outputs.

Hope this helps clarify.

TM

[IntheTin]

OEI training mode is disabled if;
NR drops below 87%, either engine flames out, either engine enters manual mode, an EEC problem, either engine mode selector is not in the flight position, or the Torque limiter is switched off.

[212man]

gnz - there is no wake up engine, both engines are driving the rotor but with an artificial indication. The standard recovery with all FADEC training modes is surely - pull the lever!

[ShyTorque]

About a decade ago I started a new job and was given my first OPC/LPC on what was a new type for me, the Squirrel 'N'. The training captain worked out the weights for the engine failure part of the sortie but he inadvertantly used the real Perf A graph, not the training weights graph. So we were quite a bit (!) too heavy and it was a very hot day.

It was interesting when he gave me the first engine failure...

[tottigol]

Part L of Supplement 12 for Cat A Operations (AW139 RFM) has some performance "information" in it that someone thought was less than important.:hmm:
So does Supplement 12 Part C in its "Limitations" (applicable to only some of us apparently) section.:oh:


You can take a horse to water...

[Saint Jack]

".... had taken the proactice hands on approach...... But make no mistake...."

Nice one Shell Management (Post #42), yet another post to your usual sarcastic standard - but why did you wait until Page 3?

[gnz]

Thanks all, that's clear now. Different philosophy than my EC' chopper : One engine Idled, ready to "wake up " with real OEI (hi or low, depending of the problem). But there's still the training perfs to comply with;)

[Hueybluey]

Quote:
the worlds only two available full-motion AW139 simulators

business opportunity

Turns out Gulf Helicopters have taken up that business opportunity. Their sim is now UK CAA and Qatar CAA approved.

[Epiphany]

The Gulf sim is only certified for recurrent training - not initial - so that still leaves only the two level D sims in Italy and USA for type rating training.

[outhouse]

Yes so I understand, no type training credits from the local authority. So GH still have the 10 or 5 hr exposure on the aircraft, plus any sim they may decide to do above the minimum hrs. It is IR rated so 3 hrs sim available of the 5 hr course. On an up the skill test for type rating and the IR skill test can be done in the sim.

[antongervax]

I'm Antonio G., and my total time on 139 is 2,400 hours (training, worldwide demos, operations in every kind of enviroments, and so on). Many many 139's pilots have been trained by my hands. I'm here asking myself: why don't we wait for evidences from FDR and CVR instead of talking and talking? Thank you.

[Thomas coupling]

Antongervax: First - welcome to Pprune. Let me introduce you to the way things are done on this particular forum "rotorheads":
We practice the art of "ppruning", which delicately put, means we discuss / dismember / research / opine / comment...all things to do with the professional world of rotary aviation.
You may discover (if you stay here long eneough) that the place is littered with some of the best people this industry has to offer. They are: global/experienced/wise.
The forum is (relatively) free from hinderance from the moderators, who in themselves are 'experts' in their own field, also.
The beauty of this site is that everyone can have a say and 'second guess' what happened. It's purely a reflection of what you would discover in virtually every crewroom/office/airbase in the world.....ENJOY, my friend :ok:

[Epiphany]

TC, this person is well known to many AW139 pilots. Note that he begins by telling everyone how good he is.

Anyone who has been unfortunate enough to have received training from Italian AW training pilots will know their modus operandi very well - they strut into the briefing room (inevitably late - with no apology) wearing a nice blue flying suit with a pretty cravat, sneer at you, point to the helicopter and say 'Lets go'.

If you ask for a pre-flight brief you get an even bigger sneer. Then during the flight when you have absolutely no idea what is happening due to the fact that you have not received a pre-flight brief they start to shout at you, wave their hands around a lot and swear in Italian. Net result is that you learn sweet FA. After landing (when they think that have proved beyond doubt that they are God's gift to aviation) they make sure that their nice blue flying suits and cravats are not creased and dismiss you with a sneer and a wave of the hand. No post flight brief - no nothing. A complete waste of time.

CRM? MCC? You must be joking. These people have no multi-crew experience apart from 200 hours in an R22 so have no idea about CRM. Most of them only have jobs because of the nepotism that is endemic at AW Italy. The sad thing is that operators are paying lots of money for this bull****. Rant over.

[heliski22]

Epiphany.......

Did you deliberately leave out the bit about using the mobile phone to contact wife/girlfriend/mistress/tottie-of-the-day (actually, scratch wife now that I think of it) whilst aloft during training sortie/skills test or were you doing the decent thing and trying to soften the blow just the tiniest bit?! :E

[Epiphany]

Heliski,

I am not the least bit surprised. If I were the only one that had a bad experience with these 'instructors' then I would have thought that possibly it was just me so forget it. But I have heard the same story from so many different pilots - many of them very experienced TRE's who were horrified at the low standard of instruction they were given.

Capitano Gervaxiarsey and his ilk must take their share of the blame for the appallingly low standard of many AW139 pilots that I frequently have to fly with in various parts of the world. Many of them have absolutely no idea how to check basic pre-flight planning requirements such as performance and weight and balance.

This results in a situation where low-time AW139 pilots are attempting to perform training CAT A helipad OEI rejects at 800kg over max training weight, well out of aft C of G and find themselves running out of Nr and ideas, collapsing the landing gear, losing the tail rotor and somehow walking away from the $18,000,000 write-off.

And do you know what these pilots say when questioned why they did that? 'No one taught us how to read the graphs'. The 'instructors' who should have taught them were probably too busy fixing their cravats or talking to the mistress/making excuses to the wife.

[EESDL]

Antongervax......why are you on a 'Rumour' network?

[rancid]

weeeee...........

[tottigol]

...they start to shout at you, wave their hands around a lot and swear in Italian.

Come and see us in New Jersey, it's a different story.
Our flight suits are a darker shade of blue.:)

[spinwing]

Mmmmm ...


...... Come and see us in New Jersey ....

I intend too ... and quite soon too (I hope) ... :D


And also I refer back to my post #40 of this thread ... :eek:


:E

[212man]

And do you know what these pilots say when questioned why they did that? 'No one taught us how to read the graphs'

Yes - they look really complicated!

http://i202.photobucket.com/albums/aa50/S92ctc/139TNGWT.jpg

Regardless of the training, any TRE who uses a training mode without knowing how it works or how to calculate the performance limitations, probably shouldn't be in that seat.

Out of interest Epiphany, as a TRE on type, how quickly does the system exit training mode once 87% is reached, and is the recomended recovery from a low Nr situation to keep pulling? On the EC-155 and S-76C+ (which do actually place an engine in idle rather than simulating it) once the Nr hits it's lower limit (320 rpm on the EC-155) it doesn't budge any lower. The idling engine simply spools up and helps the driving engine. It's seamless and simple, but the only downside is that trainees don't realise they've mishandled the aircraft, because all they see is a nice gentle touchdown!

[IntheTin]

Ouch! :ouch:

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y22/Inthetin/267933_10150360503198776_724983775_10032783_453546_n.jpg

[Thomas coupling]

Oh dear, never twigged he might be one of the main proponents for such poor standards with Italian TRE's. I have heard from numerous quarters (some closer than you might think:suspect:) that there is a propensity towards self personification rather than CRM.
It doesn't help, though when the Italian CAA turn a blind eye does it?:mad:

[wwingrotor]

The easiest way is to blame instructors. I learned under Antonio and he was a good teacher - preflight, debriefs. What i think is that if you are laisy to learn the machine, to understand it , and you think that you have a lot of experience so you can fly anything, things happen. Of course i also have complaints over some agusta instructors but you can always take the manual and read it and again and again. And to teach how to read graphs....:sad: how did you get your licence????

[9Aplus]

Well there was some stories, on same level, comming from Donauworth..... :ugh:
We are grown up people, if you not getting proper service, than ask for it.
To be in position to receive TR to play with AW139, you need to have some hours and some life experience :}

[Thomas coupling]

I feel 'mission creep' setting in on this thread, but here goes before the mods re-align it:uhoh:

wwingrotor: If everything could be done by manuals, then there would be no need for TRE's/instructors anywhere, would there? They do more than transfer technical knowledge, they add an holistic approach to the candidates experience. They give them confidence, teach them the practicalities of flying that particular machine.
It seems from an outsider perspective, that there are certain individuals out there who have been entrusted with the unique responsibilities associated with Instructing, but prefer to concentrate on promoting the kudos instead.

Mind you I suspect a lot of it is in their Italian genes (or should I say Jeans!):ooh:

[MirkoR]

Well, well … we started the thread discussing about what happened in Malaysia and passing through Gervasi we eventually came to the idea that Italians are bad pilots, bad instructors and so on… right?

As an Italian I’m extremely sorry to read these lines that I really hope are the idea of a very few out there.

I’m really sorry not to be trusted as a pilot just because of my nationality and, thanks God, this is not ! At all !

It’s not my intention to defend a single person but an entire group of professionals and, more than this, an entire country yes.

I also had my training in Agusta flying with an Italian instructor so professional and helpful that I use to keep bothering him every now and then when I need further clarifications about anything regarding A139.

I know of other colleagues from different countries being as happy as me about their training in Agusta and they also flew with Italian instructors so please let’s keep the mouth shut or try first to connect the brain to the mouth before offending a country that, if I don’t mistake, has, just to give a little example about the genes ( if you wish you can say jeans…), the best aerobatic team in the world.

Last but not least, the Agusta Training Academy had been run till a short time ago by a Brit so do not complain with Italians but ask the UK people what they have been doing in their period to pass their outstanding organization and standards to the poor illitterate Italians!

P.S. Tottigol I didn’t appreciate at all your darker color show off … !!!

[heliski22]

Hmm, this seems to be getting a bit serious.....

You can't tar everybody with the same brush and I have to say, my one recurrency with an Italian instructor in Sesto was very good, it was a thorough workout and I certainly didn't feel short-changed at the end of my stint.

Just keeping a little balance in there!

[spinwing]

Mmmmm ...

MirkoR ... Look ol' darling nobody has 'badmouthed' the Italian nation ... you are being just a bit too sensitive to the reaction of some very experienced 'pruners' who by and large have the experience to back up their opinions.

I myself have very recently had the very positive experience of flying with a couple of Italian nationals (relatively younger chaps) both ex italian military (one of whom flew Harriers with the Italian Navy) and I can only give praise to their skills, talent and attitude (and I quite liked them as people as well). :D

You do yourself a disservice by reacting in such a manner ... and in fact drop yourself into the same (Nationality) trap that you attempt to defend. :=

Most of us here on Pprune have many years of worldwide helicopter operational experience .... there are blokes we will fly with at anytime and anyplace .... there are also blokes we will run across busy traffic laden highways to avoid .... that is the way of personalities in aviation.

Get used to it ...... :E

[Epiphany]

TC, there is no thread creep here really as the accident is inextricably linked to the standard of AW instruction received by the crew.

212 - reversion should be instantaneous but recovery is assuming that the correct profile parameters are being flown, the aircraft is below max training weight, within C of G and the training captain is adequately trained and experienced on type.

When Nr reaches 80% it is not recoverable, the tail rotor is no longer effective and it is game over. This crew were very lucky that the AW139 is so well constructed that they were able to walk away from a >7g deceleration.

This accident is a perfect example of the formulae: Poor training + poor piloting skills + cultural attitudes = accident waiting to happen.

Sadly there will be more.

Last but not least, the Agusta Training Academy had been run till a short time ago by a Brit so do not complain with Italians but ask the UK people what they have been doing in their period to pass their outstanding organization and standards to the poor illitterate Italians!

Mirko, the British have a saying: 'You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink'. To make it a little clearer for you - AW Italy is the horse and the water is organisational skills and standards. Even when the water is taken to the horse you still cannot make it drink - unless it wants to.

[MirkoR]

You can take a horse to water but you cannot make it drink'. ...

... That means is a complete waste of time keep discussing with you. :ugh:

Thank you for pointing this out.

Spinwing I do accept your reply but, as you can see, January, 6th, keeps pointing his finger against AW Italy that I'm wondering if he really knows it so well.

He should know they have a feedback procedure that allows anybody to write and report his comments in order to tune the system and, as I was told, this brought to kick somebody off the system who was not completely up to the standards.

I am happy heliski22 is also giving credit to these guys.

[Aser]

Malaysia’s Professional Way orders AW139 full-flight simulator | Helihub - the Helicopter Industry Data Source (http://www.helihub.com/2011/07/06/malaysias-professional-way-orders-aw139-full-flight-simulator/)

:E

Regards
Aser

[frog07]

Italians waving hands... cravat.. 200 hours of multicrew in a R22...

I did have a good experience at AWTA, nothing to blame.

Italians wave hands, it is a habit ; somebody else has habit of killing imself with alchool every weekend.... So what??

In my opinion there is nothing else than pro-pilot and no pro-pilot, despite their culture and origin.

Epiphany ,You don't really know what you are talking about.

[Epiphany]

I only comment of subjects that I have direct experience of and in this case I know exactly what I am talking about. I do not expect everyone to agree with me but I also know that sometimes the truth hurts.

I have received some poisonous personal messages by those too spineless or lacking in English language skills, or intimately involved with the AW training system to post them here.

Don't bother to send anymore.

[frog07]

Big spine...Touchee'..

Not bothering... I'm having fun..

[MirkoR]

Thank you Aser for trying to point this thread back on the right path.
You always provide useful imformations thank you so much for this. :ok:
... nevertheless I keep seeing the horse dying thirsty but not drinking at all !!! May be he is looking for an Australocopter not waving hands but just jumping forward from A to B.... just beware of the vertical vibrations that, for sure, are in the Australian genes !
P.S. I never saw any Italian instructor in Agusta TA wearing cravats ... have you really ever been there ??????

[VEMD]

We are loosing the essence of this thread.... What about if someone share some opinions about the organizational skills of WS??:mad:

[singlecut]

I have to back up Epiphany on this one - his experience was exactly the same as mine except the TRI had 2 mobiles on the go. 'Pronto'?!

Important to note that my initial training was conducted at Vergiate on the helicopter. Sesto in the simulator is completely different. No cravats and usually a good level of instruction.

[tottigol]

It appears that the Training "Captain" was conducting operations under AW139 RFM Suppl. 12 Part L at a weight roughly 1500 lbs above max for the ambient OAT.

We can definitely blame that on the AW instructors and their cravats.:rolleyes:

[Epiphany]

Of course Tottigal as an AW instructor yourself you'd know all about that.

The fact that the pilot took off over max gross weight has been known for some time if you would care to read my previous posts. The pilot asserts that AW instructors did not show him training weight graphs. Malaysian horses need to be dragged to water and forced to drink.

[outhouse]

Just wondering what type of profile the three wise men were flying when they bumped the tail, that little bit of info is lacking I think?*:ugh:

[212man]

Just wondering what type of profile the three wise men were flying when they bumped the tail, that little bit of info is lacking I think?

I 'gather' it was the back-up ground level helipad procedure. Back up and back down, in this case!

[outhouse]

Thanks for that info. So a back up profile, over weight with a reported aft c of g. Guess the three were not wise, dumb, **##s.:}