Kit built aircraft and leasing them to flying clubs

[rmdr2]

All

I am thinking of joining the ranks of aircraft ownership and am looking for some advice. I am trying to do it in a cost effective way, and my experience is that most of the club aircraft I fly are, in fact, owned by private individuals who lease them to the club. If any of you guys have any such experience that would help set me along my path, I would really appreciate a PM.

One thing that I am considering is the purchase of a kit aircraft, like one of the Rutan fleet. Seems to me that they are fast and very fuel efficient in a time of rocketing fuel prices. I suspect that there is an horrendous amount of red tape around such a venture, so if anyone out there is doing the aforementioned in the UK, I would love to hear from you…

Many thanks

Rmdr2

[Zulu Alpha]

You can't hire or rent homebuilt aircraft.

So, only certified can be rented. Homebuilts have to be owned or flown without remuneration.

Rutans aircraft are fuel efficient but designed mainly for long tarmac runways and so are not very good on grass strips.

RVs seem to be the best compromise

[S-Works]

Nope. Permit to fly can't be rented.

[rmdr2]

Thanks fellas!

You wouldn't be able to point me to the relevant documents/sections in the regulations would you? Seems to me that I should properly familiarise myself with the rules...

thanks, rmdr2

[S-Works]

Start by looking at the LAA website. There is a FAQ there that tells you what you can and cant do on a permit. If you need more than that then you neeed to start looking at the ANO etc.

[Unusual Attitude]

There is one small loophole for renting Permit aircraft, I cant remember the specifics but it basically allows hiring of single seat only permit Aircraft under a certain weight and was grandfathererd to allow the Tiger club to hire out their Turbulents....which they still do/

A search on here will get you the full details.....

[SlipSlider]

As UA said there is an exception re Turbs for hire on a permit to fly, but even those have to be the Rollason factory-built examples; homebuilt examples are not eligible.

[Pilot DAR]

rmdr2,

I don't want to seem to be a nay sayer, but I hold the opinion that on the whole, amature built aircraft are not adequately suitable for "general" rental use. Sure, there are many fine amature designs, fine constructors, fine rental agencies, fine maintainers, and fine rental pilots, but....

All of those must line up a lot more closely for it to work in the case of an amature built aircraft. many are not designed for the rigours of "rental" use, so the maintenance goes way up. The design for maintenance and parts support is not what it would be for a mainstream certified aircraft, so it's out of service more when something breaks.

Some amature built aircraft have flying qualities which differ form the certified types enough, that more training/checkout will be needed for rental pilots to fly them well. Will the rental agency itself have the skilled pilots to provide this training on type?

Though I have not flown Rutan's designs, I believe that they have high performance characterisitcs similar to other aircraft I have flown. These characteristics are beyond the skills of many low time rental pilots, and allowing your aircraft to be used for them to develope these skills will become expensive - for someone.

A very few amature built designs did find their way to production (Grumman singles come to mind) but this is not common, primarily I expect because of simple economics. If Rutan type aircraft could be viable as general aviation aircraft, you'de see them in production. I expect that you do not, because their economics are poor, and they cannot easily meet the certification requirements. If they cannot meet those requirements, there is something about them, which makes them "different" to fly. I'm not saying bad, just different - and not certifiable.

I suggest that if you want to be in the lease back business, a cerified aircraft would be a much better choice. The more common, the better....

[Rod1]

It is very common to learn to fly in France on a machine built by the club. This has worked for many years and having flown a number of such machines there is no reason it would not work in the UK if it were allowed to do so.

Rod1

[Justiciar]

There is one small loophole for renting Permit aircraft, I cant remember the specifics but it basically allows hiring of single seat only permit Aircraft under a certain weight and was grandfathererd to allow the Tiger club to hire out their Turbulents....which they still do/

The exemption is in the ANO and allows for the hire out of single seat aircraft even if the do not have a C of A. However, you cannot use them for training (fairly obviously) which means you cannot count hours in them towards training for a licenc eor rating.

[SpreadEagle]

I chuckled. I have flown a long-ez. Its the only Rutan aircraft I have got my hands on so far. Its not for students. Its just too much fun for them.

Canard planes are fast with high landing speeds. As mentioned above they want a long hard runway. Also you do not want to be smacking the nosewheel in one of those.

RV was mentioned. Another awesome aircraft. RV7A or RV10 might make a super trainer, but most builders will try to drop 160-250 Hp engines in them. Again far too much fun for a student. Also the light stick forces that make the RV a joy to fly, wouldn't be allowed for a training aircraft.

And besides you can't cellotape something together in your garage and expect authorities to allow you, to grant paying members of the public the ability to kill themselves with it.

So this depends on what you are trying to do.

If you want a kit aircraft, but to subsidise the cost of running it/ownership, picking an RV or something Rutan is not going to be hard to sell shares in. Selling shares of kit aircraft is no problem at all for popular aircraft such as those mentioned. Bare in mind your airfield. A Cozy somewhere like North Weald or Kemble might be quiet popular. A cozy at Manchester Barton or White Waltham probably won't be.

If this is your dream, (ownership) and kit building because of price is the only way to achieve it (not a bad way I might add), then sell out shares but your main challenge is to pick something you want to build.
RV - 1200-1700 hours maybe? All metal. By all accounts a very well put together kit.
Rutan aircraft. Different ball game. Many if not all are built from plans. They take much longer to build. Fill then sand. Bit more sanding. Fill and sand. More sanding. Sanding sanding sanding sanding and then a touch more sanding after that. They are built with love.
If you are buying a kit made by someone else, make sure you or a trusted friend know what makes a good or a badly built kit aircraft. You don't want something someone else cellotaped together in their garage. Equally you could end up with something wonderful that you could never afford from a factory. With this scenario though why not get a share in an existing syndicate. Someone else has taken the risk of not selling all the shares for you.

Alternatively you are looking to make an investment by renting cheap aircraft to schools.
^ This IMHO is a one way route to pain and misery.
They will not look after your aircraft the way you would.
You need to understand the industry and contracts else you could be left with aircraft doing nothing if they decide to give it back one day, depreciated and worn out with no engine time left.
I know of schools that didn't pay on time regularly to their lease firms and the margins are small.
In short, if you have a 6 figure sum burning a hole in your pocket, you can think of many things that are a better investment than this will be, I promise.

If you must rent to a school (you have been ordered in a dream by God or similar), try to get inside their heads and see what they rent. DA-40s are popular. As are cirrus sr20/22
Tip. Schools pay lots for avgas. Its expensive, lots of tax. Jet A1 if available at their airfield however is about 70p per litre (a while since I checked) for them, so now you see why a DA-40 is an excellent weapon of choice. They like diesel. I would talk to them before I bought with a contract already in place buying exactly the aircraft they require.

Anyway lots of points, I'm sure someone will be along any minute if I got something wrong. Good luck.

[Jan Olieslagers]

I hold the opinion that on the whole, amature built aircraft are not adequately suitable for

Don't know to what degree it is unsuitable here to pick on spelling errors but I really can't let this one pass. Surely (or what was her name, again?) EVERY aircraft should be mature built - a-mature build can never be relied upon. OTOH some amateurs have built some very fine and reliable and delightful planes.

That said, I wholeheartedly agree, pilot DAR.

[xrayalpha]

Permit to fly microlights can be hired - in fact we have four at Strathaven - as long as they are factory-built. Which ours are, of course, since we use them for training too.

Appreciate you are thinking light aircraft - but then a factory-built C42 or Eurostar is a light aircraft ... one that just happens to be registered as a microlight!

(One of our members has just bought a light aircraft Eurostar and is moving it to the microlight paperwork. Ironically, for an aircraft once based at Prestwick, it will then be banned from Prestwick because it is now a microlight!)

The exceptions for kit-built (micro and light aircraft) are mainly for pilot owners seeking their one hour with an instructor for licence revals.

[flybymike]

Don't know to what degree it is unsuitable here to pick on spelling errors

Sometimes it is irresistible..

[FleetFlyer]

Just to join in with the pedants for a minute...

'Cellotape' is absolutely unsuitable for holding together anything other than the larger models of stringed instruments. Sellotape (tm) is however, eminently suitable for bodging aeroplanes with.

Don't even get me started on duck(duct) tape..

[Pilot DAR]

Don't even get me started on duck(duct) tape..

And beyond that, we have "100 Mile per hour tape" which in reality is thin aluminum with super sticky stuff on one side, and a removable paper backing.

I can attest from recent Navajo test flying I did, that "100 Mile per hour tape" can be satisfcatorily used to at least 305 MPH.

But I acknowledge my thread drift, sorry... Oh, and for my careless spelling!

[NutLoose]

http://wrightsquawks.********.com/2009/11/bear-attack-2009-duct-tape-works.html

[FleetFlyer]

In a part time job I had we used 100mph tape to attach heating cable to cold weather oil storage tanks. I can attest to it being miracle stuff and will stick to anything. However, the edges do cut your hands to ribbons if you're not careful. I wouldn't be surprised if it had a mach rating.

[Pilot DAR]

I wouldn't be surprised if it had a mach rating.

It does now, I worked it out: Mach 0.409. Who'da thought for either the tape, or the Navajo!

[Dan the weegie]

Back to the OP :).

Have you considered the problems you might face by owning an aircraft that you rent out?
Have you spoken to anyone that owns an aircraft and rents it to a flying school and got an idea of how viable it is?
I reckon you'll find a great number of people aren't all that satisfied with the way things worked out for them, their planes get used a heck of a lot more and because of that the interior and the paint get a fair old beating. You also don't get the plane when you want it :). Consider also that you are signing up to a minimum of about £7k-£9k a year fixed costs before you even spend a penny on fuel. That's a lot of flying to deal with the costs relative to flying a permit aircraft where the fixed costs are more likely to be around £3k a year can often be less.

This of course is all dependent on which plane you buy :).

My suggestion is to buy a plane you can afford to run without renting and is also a popular type, Piper Cub, just about any RV and see how you go from there :) you should be able to sell them fairly quickly if you need to. If you buy something rare or less desirable then it can sit doing nothing for a long time (don't buy a TB!!) If you must buy a training aircraft buy the simplest one you can, Cessna 172 is a good start they do most things you'd want and they don't have oleo main gear which can be expensive and need regular maintenance they also sell quickly.

[IO540]

don't buy a TB!!That may be true if you want to rent it out, but that is merely a comment on the typical self fly hire pilot in the UK.

A TB is a great aircraft which flies really well. I've had a TB20 since 2002.

Renting a plane to a school is just going to eventually trash it, which is fine if that's what you are happy with.

But beware: there are less than honest schools which will promise you the earth in return for you putting something nice "on their fleet". I've been around that block some years ago.

[Dan the weegie]

TB was the first share I ever owned (I've since only owned my planes outright and not because the syndicate was run badly :) ) It is indeed a very good plane, particularly the TB20 but if you're looking for cheap flying you surely need to go somewhere else :). The main issue I found was parts availability was atrocious and expensive, they are also big heavy beasts for tarmac strips of a decent length :). The guy has never owned a plane, TB10s and TB9s are cheap because noone wants to buy them, it's not a good first plane :).

[IO540]

I disagree very much (you probably had a crap instructor and a crap maintainer, or you are comparing the runway performance to a Maule) but I will leave it at that :)

[S-Works]

I dunno, I have seen a lightly loaded TB20 use an aweful lot of runway in and out with associated skid marks.......... Of course it might just be pilot technique.

[IO540]

I've been in a Maule which had to go around on a grass strip. This clearly proves a Maule cannot land on grass.

A TB20 gets off tarmac in about 400m, ISA conditions, etc. 500m runways are easy. Grass is variable of course; I'd want 700m if short and dry.

But you get a plane which can do 1300nm to dry tanks, 20000ft ceiling, 140kt TAS on 9.5 USG/hr. UK to Corfu nonstop easily doable with legal IFR reserves. Flights like this (http://i101.photobucket.com/albums/m74/peterh337/egka-ldsb.jpg) are a piece of cake.

[RVFlyer]

If you think a Maule can't land on grass? 500m? Then you really don't know anything about the 'Mighty Maule'.

A TB20 or Rallye, which is what it really is, is nice, but a 182RG is a better bet. Ask anyone who knows TB's and ask about electrical gremlins, long runways, narrow seats and doors that bend in the wind.

:ugh: