QF the Best Of the Best

[novice110]

Could someone please explain to me why a QF pilot should at the end of the day earn more than an equivalent pilot at another carrier? eg Air Asia / Jetstar / Tiger

I'm not taking the piss just genuinely interested.

[busdriver007]

Why does a Fedex pilot earn more than anyone else? You are what you negotiate.....Unite and stand together and it is amazing what you can achieve..Divided you will lose...

[theheadmaster]

Ah yes novice. Sometimes it is not the the question that you ask that needs answering. A better question would be why is the Jetstar pilot not being paid the same as the Qantas pilot if they are doing the same job.

[DirectAnywhere]

This should be a short but interesting thread....:8

[SOPS]

I want to answer..but I will get banned for abuse..at such a question:ugh:

[VH-XXX]

It's a silly question sorry.

It's like asking, why does an accountant at Tom's local corner accounting firm get paid $50k p/a and an accountant at Price Waterhouse Coopers gets $90k for the same job?

If you want the same wages across all companies and industries, it's called Communism and last I knew that's not what Australia is about. Keep voting for Labor and it might happen for you.

[Tempo]

Guys....this question is obviously a wind up.

Grow up Novice.

[biton]

Because they request "max speed to the field, cancel speed restrictions" more than anyone else, anywhere. Or perhaps because they're very good at shining their ice lights into everyone else's eyes at night.

Seriously though, stop the race to the bottom. Any idiot can cut wages.

[topend3]

Pilots are generally overpaid at the top levels, and Qantas can't sustain those salaries it's as simple as that...I'm getting off now...

[Homesick-Angel]

.I'm getting off now...

What you do in your private time is your business.

[Captain Dart]

Novice, (an appropriate nom de guerre for you), as busdriver007 says, you get what you negotiate. That's why QANTAS pilots are on a better deal.

You cite Air Asia. Why don't you ask your dentist why he earns more in Australia than his counterpart in Asia? Or your electrician? What's your job? I bet you earn more than your oppo in Thailand or Uganda or Venezuela.

Why do you even care?

[mcgrath50]

HA, you owe me a new keyboard! :D

[framer]

Because they request "max speed to the field, cancel speed restrictions" more than anyone else, anywhere.

You obviously haven't seen AirNZ operating domestically :)

[remoak]

A better question would be why is the Jetstar pilot not being paid the same as the Qantas pilot if they are doing the same job.

Because the Qantas pilot has been overpaid for years, and the world has moved on.

Simple... :}

[theheadmaster]

Not many pilots I know of at Qantas have been overpaid. Some have been underpaid, but a call to payroll usually fixes it up next pay day.

[novice110]

No I wasn't after communism !

And fair point re the foreign comparison I made, they're just the last few airlines I've flown with. (so forget air asia then - qf / jetstar / virgin blue / tiger)

So I was just wondering what the QF guys (and good luck to them) bring to the bargaining table then? In other industries performance by employees can be easily assessed. A salesman for instance can negotiate a better deal on the back of his figures during the last year.

How do you do that in the airlines? In the OZ carriers at least safety seems to be a given across the board no? Do the qf pilots fly the planes more efficiently? Is it more difficult to fly the particular qantas planes? (A380) Are their working conditions harder? ie more time away / longer shifts etc?

What is the difference in moving similair aiframes from A to B ?

Thanks in advance !

[Zapatas Blood]

“Could someone please explain to me why a QF pilot should at the end of the day earn more than an equivalent pilot at another carrier? eg Air Asia / Jetstar / Tiger”

They get what they get because they have been employed under these conditions for half a century before Tiger/VB/Jstar were even thought of.

But things will change.

[remoak]

So I was just wondering what the QF guys (and good luck to them) bring to the bargaining table then?

- an over-inflated sense of their own importance
- an unshakeable belief that only they can fly safely
- a world view that is rooted in the '80s

Having said that, it's not just Qantas, most legacy carriers have the same disease.

Nobody can blame them for trying to cling to terms and conditions that were obsolete ten years ago, and I suppose we should feel sorry for them as they see their cosy world dissolving before their eyes.

And just in case anyone thinks there is a hint of jealousy here, there isn't. I would be the first one to welcome a return to the good old days, when pilots were respected and paid accordingly. But the reality is that those days are long gone.

Adapt and survive.

[mcgrath50]

Are Qantas pilots over paid, or jetstar pilots under paid?

I certainly think a High Capacity RPT FO is worth more than the 30k the cadets will be getting.

But no, fair enough, after investing thousands of dollars (or 10 - 20 years in the military) into our training, lets all work for pittance because we love flying big jets and after all that's all that matters right.

[PyroTek]

lets all work for pittance because we love flying big jets and after all that's all that matters right. The reality is that somebody is always willing to do such. It's probably impossible to make everybody value themselves, hence this will always happen.:ugh:

[Jack Ranga]

Because the Qantas pilot has been overpaid for years, and the world has moved on.

Au contraire remoak old son, Qantas pilots get paid what they deserve and then all the scabby, wabby little kiwi pilots come along and do it for dairy wages ;)

Next thing you know scabby wabby little kiwi pilot is whinging and complaining about not getting paid the same as the Qantas pilot, gets sacked because he's a whinging, complaining, scabby, wabby little kiwi whinger and ends up on our dole, cest la vie old son eh :D

[kellykelpie]

Could someone please explain to me why a QF pilot should at the end of the day earn more than an equivalent pilot at another carrier? eg Air Asia / Jetstar / Tiger



Um, because there haven't been enough crashes - yet....

[Metro man]

A company may value its workforce and want to keep them, in which case it makes it attractive to stay employed with them by providing good pay and benefits.

Companies such as these can be selective about who they employ and also enjoy the benefits of a stable motivated workforce.

Other companies simply pay the minimum they can get away with and accept a high staff turnover, reasoning that it costs less to keep training new people rather than pay enough to make them want to stay around.

A certain amount of turnover may be desirable because if no one ever left then pay and conditions are likely to be excessively generous, and people leaving allows for advancement for those staying.

Unions may also get a strangle hold on a company enabling them to demand pay and conditions far in excess of the industry standard. Survivable when all your competitiors are in the same boat however it comes unstuck when you have non union competition....

[donpizmeov]

I love pilot logic. Consider those on better T&Cs overpaid rather than consider those on lesser conditions underpaid. :ugh:

And we wonder why bean counters conditions improve and pilots conditions are reducing.

the Don

[Checkboard]

I love pilot logic. Consider those on better T&Cs overpaid rather than consider those on lesser conditions underpaid.:ugh:
Actually it is "pilot logic" to consider those on better T&Cs have those T&Cs because they are "better pilots". :p

[RENURPP]

Im not in QF so this isn't driven by my HUGE QF ego.
First point is that I don't think QF pilots start off as being any better than anyone else, they achieve a higher standard through experience and culture.

Companies who want the best employees, amongst other things offer more attractive packages. (Qantas)
QF use to be the employer of choice for a large percentage of pilots and other employee groups.
Today, well they are a **** employer, they do not appear to seek quality any more, they simply seek to find the cheapest available pilots and other employees, (welcome Bogan Air)
The old days it was a long hard road to the top in QF but when you got there you could be fairly certain that your training was excellent, the culture was one of safety, and you certainly had experience. (purely through time with the company)
Compare that with Bogan Air, they will employ any one who comes along with $100k in daddies pocket, hours mean nothing, in fact you are of a higher standard if you are inexperienced apparently. Commands and progression can be quick if your prepared to forget about safety and take less money.

I feel safe in a QF aircraft and I am more than happy to pay for it, even as a pilot I have second thoughts about hopping on a Bogan Air flight, and i am serious that I have serious concerns. I justify it in my own mind by saying they haven't buried one yet, and whats the chance they will do it tonight?
I will only travel with them if there is no other option and unfortunately that has been the case from Darwin (no options) heading north, fortunately Air Asia and soon to be Cebupacificair are options which I take in preference.

The old saying you pay peanuts...............................

[Artificial Horizon]

RENURP,

Are you taking the 'p*ss', you would select Air Asia over Jetstar because you will feel safer on them.... bah haa haa :} , I suggest you google Air Asia Runway excursions and you will find many over the past couple of years. If the only criteria you are using to judge if an airline is safe is how much they pay their staff then Air Asia can't be 'safer'.

[morno]

Knowing some of the things that have gone on in Jetstar Ops and Safety in the past, I wouldn't let any of my family fly on them either.

In fact, I know personally a former Jetstar pilot who won't travel on them because of things he saw while working there.

I trust 90% of the pilots there, but unfortunately that's not enough in my opinion.

morno

[RENURPP]

AH,

You may like to google Qantas and runway excursions? There are a couple of them as well, are you saying we should feel safer on Bogan Air than Qantas Bah Haa HAA:D

Bogan Air only made the papers last week for departing at an intersection after calculating their performance based on full length. Its only a matter of time.

Yes I would and do travel Air asia ahead of Bogan Air.

[Taildragger67]

Just chucking one in, but from some years of observation, I'd have thought that in most industries, someone with direct responsibility for a pretty expensive bit of plant & equipment, 8-20 direct reports and 150-500 customers, requiring a fairly high degree of technical knowledge, is going to (should) get paid fairly well.

Maybe a related question might be,

Could someone please explain to me why a QF senior manager should at the end of the day earn more than an equivalent senior manager at another carrier?

Do the qf senior managers run the company more efficiently? Is it more difficult to run the particular qantas company? Are their working conditions harder?

[novice110]

Do the qf senior managers run the company more efficiently? Is it more difficult to run the particular qantas company? Are their working conditions harder? No I wouldn't think so.
But they do bring past performance figures / annual results etc to the 'bargaining' table.

What do (can) pilots bring to their negotiation?
A safe record? Compared to everyone else who is safe these days of computerised flight.
(rennurp I'm not aware of your concerns re bogan air - nice name for them though!)

Better on time performance? Less fuel bill?

[nzavi8or]

I know personally a former Jetstar pilot who won't travel on them because of things he saw while working there.

I wouldn't travel on them even if I did work for them!! :rolleyes:

[Taildragger67]

But they do bring past performance figures / annual results etc to the 'bargaining' table.

Fair point; let's examine that then, shall we?

Charting - Australian Securities Exchange - ASX (http://hfgapps.hubb.com/asxtools/Charts.aspx?asxCode=QAN&compare=comp_index&indicies=0&pma1=0&pma2=0&volumeInd=2&vma=0&TimeFrame=D12)

[OhForSure]

Novice:

The aforementioned posts should answer the vast majority of your questions.

In relation to pilots bringing tangible things to the bargaining table:

I think you'll find that whilst there is little in terms of hard numbers, the company are very well aware of the fact that pilots can make or break company profits on a daily basis. Little day-to-day operational decisions like fuel uplift, track shortening, cost index, optimum level cruise (I could literally go on for hours here) etc, can save an airline millions every year. This obviously doesn't just effect Qantas, but all airlines. It is, however, just another thing that Qantas pilots bring to the table come EBA negotiation time.

Further to some of what the others have written:

It's also important to remember the environment in which the original EBAs were signed. For example the original Qantas LH & SH EBAs were in place WELL before the appearance of Virgin, Jetstar/Impulse or Tiger. These EBAs were signed under far more favourable times for pilot hiring. Qantas pilots could demand what they felt they deserved. In standing with global traditions, Australian pilot EBAs tend to generally improve at EBA time by roughly national CPI. This has been the case with Qantas LH & SH EBAs.

Hope this clears things up for you.

[novice110]

OhForSure

Thanks for the reply.

It's a pity that there aren't more solid facts on the cost savings you give.

Although the techniques you have mentioned to 'make or break the airline' could be seen as just normal practices could they not?

Why would a pilot not choose an optimul altitude? Is it true the computers will tell you this anyway? (not having a shot at the skill involved in flying an aircraft)

But what is the difference in pilot A following standard procedure and pilot B also following standard procedure ? Are there secret better procedures ?

[Keg]

An FMC tells you the optimum altitude based on aircraft weight only. Some newer generation FMCs also include forecast winds and will recommend an earlier climb to take advantage of weaker headwinds or stronger tailwinds. They do NOT take into consideration actual conditions unless you tell them what they are. They do NOT take into account traffic issues and going up early to ensure that you can hold your optimum altitude for the remainder of the flight. They do not take into account trading off time/ fuel for schedule and they do not take into account the ride or passenger service requirements.

So I can fly the program as handed down and drop fuel all flight or I can use my experience- something J* management reckons isn't that important- and save hundreds of kgs by getting my altitude early and holding it longer. I can ensure the pax get a smooth ride for the meal service before dropping down out of the winds to ensure an on time arrival or minimising a delay.

Smart pilot managers know that we do all this and don't treat us like idiots when it comes to the savings that actively engaged pilots can bring to the table. Idiotic pilot managers think that the computer tells you all you need to know.

[drop bear ten]

Rennurp,

You are a B717 captain based in Darwin with Cobham.

1. I suggest you read up on the stick shake history / heavy landings of a couple of your mates before bagging another company.:=

http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/AAIR/pdf/AO-2008064_Prelim.pdf

How Qantaslink bent a jet with a 3.6g hard landing | Plane Talking (http://blogs.crikey.com.au/planetalking/2010/05/14/how-qantaslink-bent-a-jet-with-a-3-6g-hard-landing/)

Not to mention the unreported head-on near-miss between two B717 at PBO- but that would spoil a good yarn.....Napoleon was not happy.

2. Don't bite the hand that feeds you via a contract that is shortly up for negotiation.:suspect:

[RENURPP]

I know who I work for, but thanks for the reminder!

I am still entitled to an opinion, and my opinion is that QF pilots will generally achieve a higher standard due to culture, time in the S/O position and RHS learning from experienced pilots. They probably are no better when they started but good experience is a wonderful thing.

As for Bogan Air, they are a pox on the aviation industry, both from a pilots point of view and a customers.

As for incidents, all companies have them, some are worse than others. I accept the company I work for is not perfect by any stretch of the imagination. Lucky for us the ex military types have moved on and they have been replaced by some capable people.

[wingunder]

Hey renurpp check your PMs

[leffe]

Its simple....Qantas Pilots get paid more money becauase they are the best Pilots in the world!!!!!

If you dont believe me, just asked one and they will tell you how good they are..:ok:

[max1]

Could someone please explain to me why a QF pilot should at the end of the day earn more than an equivalent pilot at another carrier? eg Air Asia / Jetstar / Tiger

I'm not taking the piss just genuinely interested.

This is the question at the start of the thread.
The answer is that in the dim, distant past that Qantas management knew that they were in the airline business, i.e that people will pay money to get on a plane to get places quicker than any other form of transport.
The most integral part of the airline business were the staff who were on the plane looking after the customers. Second, were the staff who were on the ground who kept the planes in the air and looked after the punters before they got on the plane. Third, were anybody else in the business.

[novice110]

Could someone explain why a JQ pilot should earn more / less than a VB/ tiger / Qf etc pilot ?

Have they learnt how to study the wind.. Find an optimal level ?

What were the other differences last time around ?

What is the difference between positioning an airframe from A to B ?

[FGD135]

novice110, your naivete is breathtaking!


The salary differences between one airline and another have NOTHING to do with winds, optimal levels, skill levels etc.

[novice110]

Ok mate, fair enough then...

I just do not understand why some companies pay more for (what I see) as
Exactly the same form of labour.

What is the difference ? More skill ? Harder work ? Longer shifts ?

[FGD135]

It comes down to what has been negotiated, plus "historical" effects on salaries.


If the Qantas pilots were to all be sacked tomorrow, then be allowed to reapply for their jobs, you would find Qantas would only re-employ the ones prepared to accept half the salary they previously enjoyed.


Under the current (global) economic circumstances, about 90% of these pilots would go back to Qantas, with the airline being prepared to lose the other 10%.


So, you would then have the exact same pilots, with the exact same skills and training, now on half their previous salary.


I just do not understand why some companies pay more for (what I see) as Exactly the same form of labour.
In business, the name of the game is to pay the employees AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE. This is true for all businesses - not just airlines. The skills and abilities of a worker have almost nothing to do with what their salary is!


Qantas would love to reduce their pilot salaries to the same level as those for Jetstar, but are prevented from doing so. Qantas management, over the years, has gone to CONSIDERABLE effort to find ways to reduce the salaries of all their staff (not just pilots).

[pull-up-terrain]

Just looking at the EBA's for Virgin and Tiger, they are pretty much getting paid similar to Qantas pilots now if not more and it looks like Jetstar pilots are negotiating a new EBA where the conditions will be similar to what every other airline in Australia are paying.

[27/09]

Could someone explain why a JQ pilot should earn more / less than a VB/ tiger / Qf etc pilot ?

I just do not understand why some companies pay more for (what I see) as
Exactly the same form of labour.

If you were to open your eyes and look around you'd find the same thing happens in other industries. It comes down to what's been negotiated.

Also you need to compare apples with apples. Base pay, incentive pay and allowances etc can vary quite a bit so it's very hard to compare real world take home pay.

[Little Black Duck]

I'd love to see everyone earning equal to or more than us again. They deserve it. If it doesn't happen sooner or later, the truly talented and driven will choose a different career. The travelling public are drawing closer and closer to getting what they pay for. I'm grateful to the very dedicated pilots still coming through who are maintaining the integrity of the profession.

[novice110]

The references to wind and levels was from some earlier posts. They were regarded as reasons why some pilot groups are better than others... (Ohforsure and keg).

It's a good thing you guys are not in sales... With respect the people on here seem very bad at selling yourselves.

And angryrat, I'm a bit lost on your post. Is the LH a reference to Lufthansa?
Good luck in your negotiations, I truly hope you get a better deal !

[Keg]

The references to wind and levels was from some earlier posts. They were regarded as reasons why some pilot groups are better than others... (Ohforsure and keg).


Nice verbaliing.

You were the one that posed the question (and implied an assertion) that two pilots following the same SOPs were worth the same.

But what is the difference in pilot A following standard procedure and pilot B also following standard procedure ? Are there secret better procedures ?

I was pointing out that there is a lot more to operating an aeroplane than simply SOPs and that smart managements knew that and paid accordingly. I used the wind as just one example of a multitude of examples of why your assertion of two pilots following SOPs must just be worth the same money is a crock. Other examples may include an airline who's pilots are able to demonstrate excellent SOPs but still prang short of the runway on a CAVOK day or were SOP'd perfectly but missed the fact they'd descended early and hit the hill 4 mile short of the runway.

My original response should not be viewed as suggesting that those paid less than Qantas pilots do NOT know these things (winds, etc) , simply that your assertion regarding SOPs was seriously flawed. :ugh:

[novice110]

I still don't see the difference.
I don't read about any jet aircraft in Australia hitting hills or pranging short of the runway.
The perception is that modern computerised aircraft largely fly themselves. Sure a special skill set is required when things go wrong. I put it to you that this skill set is exactly the same across all carriers in Australia. So why pay differently in the future ?

And let's face it, Australia has some of the most benign weather in the world for flying in. As for hitting hills... It is a very flat country.

[Metro man]

Tell that to the families of the passengers involved in the Lockhart River disaster.

[Captain Nomad]

The perception is that modern computerised aircraft largely fly themselves. Sure a special skill set is required when things go wrong. I put it to you that this skill set is exactly the same across all carriers in Australia. So why pay differently in the future ?


And there's the rub. It is like trying to argue why an experienced pilot is worth more than a 200 hour cadet. Management and the public will never understand the differences when looking at dots on paper. Lulled into a sense of safety with no massive burning holes in the ground, the conclusion is that there is no difference, no reduction in safety, no reduction in quality, no undue risk.

Norfolk Island won't have a patch on the antics that will play out when the race to the bottom reaches ultimate consequences. What are YOU willing to pay?

[Andy_RR]

In business, the name of the game is to pay the employees AS LITTLE AS POSSIBLE. This is true for all businesses - not just airlines. The skills and abilities of a worker have almost nothing to do with what their salary is!

That's a pretty jaundiced view of business.

I've found that the profitable businesses will buy the best value human resources rather than the cheapest. There are a lot of cheap potential employees out there but when it comes to demanding jobs, they can wind up being very expensive for the company.

On the other hand, noone seems to have mentioned that Qantas was once part of a former, government sanctioned and supported duopoly, which is also a great way of hiding poor value from all concerned.

[novice110]

Nomad

I think the general public do understand the difference when talking about a 200hr cadet. Whilst these pilots are developing their skill set and experience, it is trusted that the other pilot sitting there is very experienced.

Surely these 200hr pilots would only be flying with senior / checking pilots for a few years first ? Geez I can only hope !

[Lookleft]

Surely these 200hr pilots would only be flying with senior / checking pilots for a few years first ? Geez I can only hope !

Brand new Captains only get 6 months before they can be rostered to fly with a cadet so yours is a vain hope novice.

[Captain Nomad]

Novice 110, I have simply highlighted that apples are not always apples, seemingly 'same' pilots operating to SOPs aside. There can be valid reasons for cost differences which it appears you have now consented to.

A discerning buyer will understand why they pay more sometimes for a particular product. They might even choose to pay more than the cheapest price. Admittedly it can be harder for the public to discern this with airlines unless there are smoking holes in the ground to compare against ticket price.

As others have highlighted, cheapest is not always best. It can be downright false economy. You also cannot attract and retain quality staff with peanuts. As the old saying goes, 'if you think safety is expensive, try having an accident.'

Read up on the Colgan crash and then come back and tell us if you think employment conditions, training standards, quality of staff, company investment in training and development of staff etc have no bearing on the quality of product a ticket buyer is purchasing? With the benefit of hindsight, do you think the families of Colgan, Lockhart and numerous other air crashes would have been willing to pay more for a potentially safer product?

Once again, what are YOU willing to pay?

[novice110]

Lookleft and Nomad

Thanks very much for your insights. The questions I have had were under the false impression that the jet operators in Oz had the same experience levels.
Obviously, some have more flying time than others, but you know what I mean..
A new captain flying with a 200hr guy is a long way from what I thought was possible.

Ok point taken, I will read up on Colgan ... cheers.