How can we help?

[petestratten]

Just as many glider pilots fly a wide variety of powered aircraft, a number of powered pilots get involved with gliding too. Its great that we can all try different aspects of GA/airsport other than those we're used to. Experiencing a new perspective on flying and reminding ourselves that the basic skills required are not wildly different is always good fun! It probably improves our flying too.

We're interested in hearing about what our powered pilot friends would find helpful in smoothing their path to add 'qualified glider pilot' to their experience as power pilots. Clearly some people will have had great experiences when they tried gliding and others will be less than impressed! However, we're looking forward here and so we'd be grateful for constructive advice rather than anything else.

Theres a great article here that describes one experienced GA pilot's experiences of learning to glide

http://www.lashamgliding.co.uk/LinkClick.aspx?fileticket=EC13yHr7Vl0%3d&tabid=65


So...in summary, we're interested in hearing about what our powered pilot friends would find helpful in smoothing their path to add 'qualified glider pilot' to their experience as power pilots.

We look forward to reading your comments.

Pete Stratten
BGA

[Unusual Attitude]

I live about 5mins away from one of the UK's best gliding sites and am keen to give it a try.

I dropped them a mail, explained my background of both powered and TMG flying and expressed an interest to do some sort of intense course to be able to progress as quickly as possible to solo.

The response I got back was if I'm quite honest rather rude and went something along the lines of "you should be so lucky, you'll be expected to turn up early, push and pull gliders all day long and if your very lucky you might get chance for a flight at the end of the day."

Needless to say I've not been to see them, especially when I have 2 Group A aircraft I can jump in and fly whenever I like and I'd be rather miffed to spend a whole day on the ground without a flight...

I do however realise this is the way of things with the Gliding world but spare time for me is very rare and I have to be efficient with it.

Alas it seems in this day and age you can be either time or cash rich but rarely both.....!

[MIKECR]

A number of gliding clubs now operate a training slot booking system, a bit like powered flying schools. Saves people hanging around all day.

[BroomstickPilot]

Hi petestratten,

I started my flying career with a BGA 'B' Certificate and then later moved into power flying. Over two or three years in the late sixties, I was a member first of London Gliding Club at Dunstable Downs and then of Thames Valley Club at Booker. I found gliding very frustrating, but it did give me a far better foundation for learning to fly power than I should otherwise have had. So I suspect that every low hours power pilot would probably benefit from a bit of gliding.

However, I have said this before in another recent thread regarding attracting power pilots to gliding. The majority of power pilots can only just afford sufficient power flying annually to remain legal and barely current. They certainly could not afford regular gliding as well.

Furthermore, the reference in another post to someone working like a trojan all day and perhaps not even getting a flight by the end of the day are all too true. That happened to me very many times. So I can't imagine someone used to just turning up and flying being very happy with that.

Nevertheless, I suspect some power pilots would like to have a one-off taste of gliding, just for interest and would certainly benefit from doing so.

So I would recommend that a gliding club might organise some two or three day taster courses in the summer, rather like the gliding holiday courses they already provide for beginners. Some pilots might choose this instead of a citybreak holiday or a fly-out.

However, as regards trying to make power pilots take up gliding on a regular basis, I should say just forget it. The only ones who will wish to do it regularly are likely to be young power pilots who are not really interested in gliding at all, but merely want to fly the tug aircraft to 'build hours' for free.

(I wonder why we have had two such threads within such a short time; could it be the gliding clubs would like to poach us)?

Regards,

BP.

[thing]

Pete were you an instructor/tug pilot at Bicester around 1990/91?

[petestratten]

'BP' - Thanks. Please can you steer me to the other thread you mention? Certainly don't want to bore people with this. Genuinely grateful for the feedback.

'Thing' - In a less complicated life, yes I was!

Pete

[B4aeros]

Please can you steer me to the other thread you mentionhttp://www.pprune.org/private-flying/454660-gliding-package-aimed-ppls.html

[mary meagher]

Glad to see you stepping into the Pprune pond; I've been swimming around in PPrune since Capt. Sully, that former GLIDING INSTRUCTOR, landed his Airbus Glider in the Hudson River.....

There are two camps here: those with time to spare, and those with money to spare. The more forward looking gliding clubs can usually make an arrangement to suit those impatient types who don't have the time to spare; Shenington and Lasham and other places will be able to tailor accelerated courses with dedicated instructors to enable the latter to progress quickly.
Weather permitting, of course. Having mentioned the weather, however, we fly gliders up the wire in wind conditions when sensible little Cessnas stay on the ground.

Glider pilots do not pretend to fly for travel or business purposes; we do it for fun. And on another thread here, there are some AMAZING videos which show just how much fun we have! I recollect the thread is called "Whats happened to me?" or some such name. The videos show a 747 captain's glider flying along a shoreline, and climbing in a competition.

However, not everyone who takes up gliding achieves these standards: it is still a lot of fun getting away from a 1,200' wire launch, cost at our club only £8 for members! climbing under a nice fat cumulus to 5,000', throwing in a couple of loops or spins, and generally just messing around.
And yakking in the bar when all the toys are put away.

It's not for everyone.

[blagger]

I think gliding is in terminal decline unless it can transform the way it treats new entrants. The graft all day, bit of flying if you're lucky mentality just won't wash with most. I have tried getting into gliding a number of times, at a number of clubs and always walked away in despair. As a powered pilot and experienced motor glider instructor the negative and often downright rude attitude I experienced from a lot of the folk because I had other experience was dreadful.

At two clubs I asked to train up and fly the motor glider, didn't have time to do actual gliding. I was told in no uncertain terms I had to learn winch driving and retrieving first before they would even consider letting me near the motor glider! This being the motorglider that spent all weekend sat around not earning money until some high up instructor deigned to take some lucky type for a flight in it. I went along with it for a few weekends until I realised me and other new types were spending all day doing the graft while established members rocked up, rigged their soaring machines then disappeared off all day - how does that work then!

[Deeday]

I think gliding is in terminal decline unless it can transform the way it treats new entrants. The graft all day, bit of flying if you're lucky mentality just won't wash with most.That's interesting. I too was thinking about giving gliding a go at some point, even if I'm not bored yet of powered flight. Didn't know that things like slots, online booking etc. are alien to the gliding world (or most of it). Something to keep in mind.

[Genghis the Engineer]

An obvious thing that the gliding community could perhaps do to make themselves seem friendlier to the powered community is make the airfields visitable - which the majority don't.

The vast majority of gliding airfields do not do anything to make powered visits possible. Just picking a few near me, and using Pooleys, which is the most common UK VFR airfield guide...

Lasham, phrase from Pooleys: "Powered aircraft restricted to visits in connection with gliding and to pilots with gliding experience to Silver 'C' Standard".

Bicester "Primarily a winch launching gliding site. Light aircraft welcome when on gliding business and at pilots own risk."

Rivar Hill: Unlisted (so powered pilots can't even look up what's going on there so that we can be considerate when flying past it)

Keevil: Also unlisted

The Park: Unlisted

Shennington: Unlisted

Eyres Field: Unlisted

And so-on, a majority that don't even publish their existence to powered pilots, and a minority who do publish their existence, but tell us to bu66er off unless we are glider pilots on gliding business.


Here's what it should look like:

Aylesbury Thame: "Primarily a gliding site, but light aircraft and microlights welcome at pilots own risk".



When I'm flying a light aeroplane, I'm welcome at most microlight sites. When I'm flying a microlight, I'm welcome at most GA airfields and have even been into a few international airports without difficulty. Gliders are generally welcome to land at any microlight site, and at most GA airfields so long as they use radio and make some attempt at following the circuit pattern. If I was flying a helicopter (which I don't), I know that I can land at most GA or microlight airfields. In none of these cases do I have to justify my existence - I don't need when I land a microlight at a GA airfield to show that I am on "light aeroplane business", and at my microlight club we've never asked a visiting helicopter pilot to show they they are actually "on microlighting business". When we get gliders land there from Lasham we help them off the runway, make them a cup of tea, and welcome the tug aircraft in to get them home.

Yet pretty much anything with an engine is unwelcome at pretty much any gliding airfield.

I'll admit to landing at a few for one reason or another over the years, but at-least 50% of the time, with permission I have still got bollocked for transgressing some local regulation that I hadn't been briefed about.



So, I'd say that gliding, if it wants to make itself appealing to those of us who generally carry our own thermals on board, needs to work hard at integrating itself much more into the general UK flying community.

This doesn't mean compromising gliding safety, it doesn't mean not requiring us to get a briefing and permission, it doesn't preclude publishing strict procedures to be followed by powered traffic.

It does mean publishing your airfield details, having a procedure we can safely follow, and probably a phone number we can call.

Then you might get people flying in to have a look at a place, talk flying, and think about signing up for a gliding course.


Here's an example of wording from an airfield called Netherthorpe near Doncaster - I'm picking it only because the wording is pretty much the style that would allow gliding sites to publish their details and feel comfortable about it:

Operated by Sheffield Aero Club. Strictly PPR by phone. Inexperienced pilots are to phone for advice prior to arrival and contact a member of staff before departure.

(notes on use of radio)

(notes on circuit direction and height)

(notes on where you may not overfly)

(caution about getting too low when overflying the roads under the threshold)




In short, persuade the gliding community to consider itself part of the wider light aviation community, not something different, separate, and unwelcoming.

G

[Jim59]

And so-on, a majority that don't even publish their existence to powered pilots, and a minority who do publish their existence, but tell us to bu66er off unless we are glider pilots on gliding business.

I think that they are nearly all listed in Pooleys on in the list of glider launch sites.

Considerate Glider Training
My gliding club operates a training system where there are normally two instructors on duty and pupils book either online or by 'phone for a half-day session. A maximum of three pupils are booked each session so that one instructor has two pupils for half a day and the other one. This provides 'spare' instructor capacity for ad hoc checks etc. Every booked pupil will fly - weather permitting. Trial lessons are booked on a separate system and with a dedicated glider and instructor. This is to ensure that trial lessons do not disrupt the training of paid-up and booked members. Anything less than this means there are not enough people on the ground to launch the gliders.

This approach is considerate to pupils by allowing them to learn without too much wasted time. The morning pupils are expected to help unpack the hangar & DI the gliders and the afternoon ones to wash them, if necessary, and pack them away. It also allows them to progress quickly. Students with prior power experience are welcome and progress quickly once they find out what their feet are for! Several instructors are powered pilots and of those some are also power instructors.

Visiting Powered Aircraft
We permit access only by glider tugs and aircraft actually owned by members. In practise the latter are virtually all trained tug pilots. We do not allow even our established members to fly in with hired aircraft. This is mainly due to planning constraints which limit the numbers of movements each day and it would be unfortunate to have to stop towing gliders because we have had too many power visitors on a particular day.

We also have noise related planning restrictions.

Even if we did not have planning restrictions the airfield is not geared up for powered aircraft.

The fuel installation does not meet Trading Standards criteria to sell fuel. (The pump is still calibrated in imperial gallons.)
There are usually winch cables laid out on the field - which are virtually invisible but can hook-up on an aircraft's undercarriage.
There are no runway markers, boundary markers etc. Rough areas are unmarked. We don't have runways as such - but a grass field that is used for take-offs and landings.
No marked 'Control' point to book-in/out.
Radio is not manned.
No signals square.
Landings and takeoffs are not always on the same part of the airfield.
No clear demarcation between airside and elsewhere - people HAVE to walk and drive on the airfield to get themselves and their gliders to the launch point and to retrieve gliders that have just landed. Few power pilots are used to seeing mobile obstructions on their airfields.
Non standard circuits: the tugs fly outside the normal glider circuit so they do not descent onto gliders below them and then join on a low base leg. Learning the power circuits in use is part of tug pilot training and done dual.
No published airfield information.
Etc.
In summary because the airfield is not intended to be used by visiting powered aircraft it is a relatively hostile environment to pilots unfamiliar with the airfield and mixed aerotow/winch gliding operations. This is simply a fact - and not representative of an attitude towards power pilots. In fact the club has a very significant proportion of members who are either private or commercial pilots or former RAF/commercial pilots. We are more than happy for power pilots to visit - by road or glider. We are very happy to train power pilots to glide.

[Genghis the Engineer]

I think that they are nearly all listed in Pooleys on in the list of glider launch sites.

Which shows name, elevation, lat/long, and operating height. No other information. Even a contact phone number would be a huge improvement.

Why does all you say apparently not apply, say, to Aylesbury Thame - a winch launching glider site and busy club with no powered facilities who nonetheless seem happy to welcome powered aircraft and publish procedures for them? Is there something wrong with the place?

For that matter, should I stop flying at Booker now? With a two powered runways, helicopter operations, AND a gliding club regularly taking off and landing in different places, it's clearly a deathtrap and somehow I failed to appreciate that the local procedures to stop us all flying into each other, are totally inadequate.

G

[Jim59]

Why does all you say apparently not apply, say, to Aylesbury Thame - a winch launching glider site and busy club with no powered facilities who nonetheless seem happy to welcome powered aircraft and publish procedures for them? Is there something wrong with the place?


Do they have planning restrictions related to numbers of powered aircraft movements per day and to the types of propellers and exhausts fitted to such aircraft? Planning was granted on the basis that we are a gliding club.

If you are not permitted to accept most powered aircraft you don't gear-up to handle them. That does not make us bad, unfriendly or awkward.

[Genghis the Engineer]

But, going back to Pete Stratton's original question, it does make you less likely to attract powered pilots to your ranks, and for that matter you'll have less friends if the club has a problem and needs support from the local aviation fraternity.

G

[OpenCirrus619]

I got my PPL and was then introduced to gliding by a friend (who owned an old Auster and was unhappy I didn't know what the foot rests were for).

I agree the way weekend flying is organised at most clubs does mean it's an all day activity - as opposed to pitch up just before your booked slot, fly, go home. When I was a member the subject of arranging a booking system, for the weekends, used to come up occasionally in the bar - every time, once the extra costs involved in paying the winch driver, retrieve driver and wing holder were considered, it was dropped as the vast majority were not prepared to pay the extra. So the system is:

Those that get there first and help get the gliders out and setup the winch / control point get their names at the top of the flying list
When you reach the top of the list you will have 1-3 flights (depending on whether its a winch or aerotow site)
Once you have flown you can add your name to the bottom of the list - most weeks you'll get another go

Everywhere I've been the list is on view - no chance for a self important instructor (not that I ever met one) to play with the order. There will tend to be 2-3 instructors and gliders - so its suprising how quickly the list turns over.

At the end of the day all those left are expected to help pack everything away. At the club I belonged to there was never a shortage of helping hands as "The bar opens AFTER the hangar doors close" was a firm rule.

That said many clubs run weekday courses as well (See Mary Meaghers post). If you want a more intensive course then this is for you. Unless weather intevenes 1 instructor, 1 glider, 2 pupils works well - both pupils will get 8 winch launches a day. 8 flights is enough for anyone to "fill their boots" at early stages of gliding - you really don't want much more. The non-flying pupil helps retrieve the glider, after landing, and learns an awful lot about gliding while they are the student non-flying. On one of these courses most(?) PPLs will go solo.

There are even some clubs / instructors around who you can arrange 1:1 tuition with (that's how I did my basic training).

The bottom line is that its a different environment from most flying clubs - some will love it, some won't. I truly believe you will get out of it as much as you put in. I loved the 8 years I spent gliding regularly (illness in the family means I can no longer devote the time needed - so I'm having a break at the moment).

One comment I would make is that some clubs are more welcoming than others. When I was deciding which club to join I spent a weekend just walking into the clubhouse of various clubs and looking lost - at some clubs I was ignored (so didn't even bother to ask for information), at others I was immediately asked how I could be helped. Guess which club I chose. Again - much the same as flying clubs. I would strongly suggest that, in view of the amount of time you're going to spend there, a similar approach is very worth while before deciding on a club.

Addressing Ghengis point about being "inviting" to visiting aircraft....
Once I had solo'd in the glider I occasionally used to pop up to the club in a C172. As a fairly low hours ppl / tyro glider pilot I was always worried I would miss spotting a glider in the circuit and would cause the pilot problems avoiding me on final. On a couple of occasions I got to the club, realised it was a busy day, and flew home again without landing.
Imagine the problems that could be caused by a visting power pilot, unfamiliar with gliding, who gets in the way of a first time solo gliding student on final - they don't have the opportunity to go-round (as a light/microlight pilot can).
I don't think, in most cases, its that they don't welcome visiting pilots - its more a question of making sure that any visiting pilots are going to be safe in a glider circuit. The variable nature of the circuit (variable height, variable shape, variable direction) will not be something most power pilots have experienced.

Wow - once I started didn't I go on.....

OC619

[mary meagher]

It is primarily a SAFETY MATTER! A previous poster has very carefully listed the points that make a gliding site quite quite different from a power site. Booker has co-existed with 2 power clubs and a helicopter operation, but I wouldn't say it has always been a happy relationship. Typical; below the LHR zone and the circuit height at Booker has always been a chosen path for light avaiation, which does not always mix well with gliders thermalling over the airfield.

At Shenington, which is my home club, three times while towing up a glider I have had to take evasive action from a power plane which simply was NOT looking out; and once went so far as to file an airmiss.

But the most horrendous of all was being on the ground and watching a self-righteous helicopter pilot who considered that phoning the week before = unfortunately no record was made of this call at the club - and calling on the day on an airfield frequency - which typically of a gliding club was not manned; and then took off directly in front of a glider (non radio) on approach after the glider pilot had just completed his first 5 hour endurance flight.

On another occasion, a visitor from a power club who had been briefed about the hazards presented by winch cables, took off (we suspect after a liquid lunch) and flew into the cable! which slid off his wing, and he carried on to his destination!

It is our frequent experience that power pilots fly in straight lines, mostly, and seldom maintain a decent lookout. And all too often fly straight across an active gliding site.

For all the reasons before cited, we prefer not to be visited by power aircraft who are unacquainted with gliding. We welcome any pilot who would like to participate in gliding, but far far better if you come by road, please.

[Lima Juliet]

Pete

I think you've got a golden opportunity to come up with a fast track to getting a PPL to solo standard in a glider. You and your mates instructed me about half a dozen years ago on JSAT(G) and I took 3 days of instruction and here's what Colin McInnes had me do:

1st day - quck groundschool then fly
Lesson 1-11 in 40 minutes
Lesson 17-19 in 11 minutes

2nd day
Lesson 12-14 in 12 minutes
Soaring and ridge running for 36 minutes
Lesson 15 in 8 minutes

3rd day
Aeros for 19 minutes
Lesson 16 for 2 minutes
Lesson 21 "first solo" for 9 minutes

All in all that's about 2.5 hrs of flying time. I must admit I felt completely comfortable and competent to fly solo after that from aerotow and then added winch later on.

Now the big challenge for you will be the EASA changes to licensing 8 Apr 12. Also, the fact that you will need an aerotow rating on a PPL after that date to tow gliders.

I see interesting times for the BGA coming with these EASA regs - many of your members have enjoyed grandfather rights for a very long time.

All the best

LJ

[blagger]

Mary, I'm afraid your post illustrates perfectly why the entrenched attitudes of the gliding fraternity are going to kill gliding in the UK. To make out that power pilots just blunder about heads in and can't integrate with other traffic is just ridiculous. quoting a few examples is meaningless, I can quote just as many of glider pilots who have screwed around power airfields circuits, with no rt while trying to scratch away.

[Lima Juliet]

PS For what its worth I believe that Genghis has a point and that some gliding sites are very unwelcoming. What both the powered and the gliding fraternity need to remember is that we both have our fair share of "idiots" or "the misguided" - unfortunately, all forms of flying are unforgiving of neglect and carelessness.

PPS Hinton manages to keep free-fall para, gliding and powered flying apart from each other, Halton with powered and gliding and also Gamston with powered and gliding - as long as you all have a good understanding of each others needs and procedures then all can work quite nicely.

Good luck :ok:

LJ

[mary meagher]

Blagger, you are absolutely right. There are many examples of thoughtless glider pilots intruding thoughtlessly in power circuits; as Leon J points out, both disciplines suffer from the undisciplined.

I blush to remember when I flew a glider on the upwind side of a parachute site during a competition; and had to apologise to the entire congregation at briefing the following morning. And got fined all the points for that day as well.

[Winhern]

On neither of these threads have motor gliders been mentionned :oh:
Are such craft rare, or just seen as neither one thing or the other by both camps?

[Say again s l o w l y]

Pete, good on you for wanting to try and reduce the nonsensical boundaries that seem to exist between powered and glider pilots. (Most of which do seem to come from the gliding side in my experience unfortunately.)

Genghis and others have mentioned the snobbish and elitist attitude that does prevail at certain (not all!) gliding clubs.

I remember once going along to visit a nearby gliding club when I was a fulltime instructor to try and build the relationship between the two clubs. I was treated appallingly, talked down to and eventually decided that it wasn't worth the effort.

I'm no idiot in an aircraft and yet talking to the people at that club, it seems that unless you were born in a glider, then you are an imbecile who has no right to call themselves a pilot.

I find it particularly amusing as I subsequently flew with many of the members of this club and most of them had some skill, but weren't what I would call different from the average, even after they'd had a more than a few hours.

If you can do something to open clubs and airfields up to the wider flying community, then that would be great.

Gliding is wonderful. I've been up many times and thoroughly enjoyed it, but this was in other countries that seem to be less anal about it. Gliding in the UK holds no appeal to me simply because of the attitudes that I have come across when making enquiries on both a professional and personal basis.

A glider is just an aircraft with a different method of propulsion. It's hardly a mythical beast that needs the dexterity of a concert painist, the brains of Einstein and the handling skill of Bob Hoover to master.

The principles of airmanship are common to all forms of aviation. Glider pilots don't have a greater ability or better airmanship than anyone else. In fact I've lost count of the number of times I've had problems with Glider pilots being where they shouldn't be or not doing nice things such as using a radio in a busy bit of airspace or ATZ and causing havoc. So it goes both ways.

So, could you convince some of the others in the gliding community to wind their necks in a wee bit please!

[blagger]

Winhern, motorgliders are one of the most under-rated machines going. You can have fast touring speeds with low fuel burn, great weight lifting capacity and fun all in one aircraft. The Grob I fly cruises at 90kts easily, burns about 12lts per hour and can lift two 90kg bods with almost enough fuel for about 5+ hours flying! I'm amazed there isn't more interest in them.

I think the gliding community / BGA are missing such an opportunity with motorgliders. Sadly, most clubs see them as some hallowed machine that sits around until some inner-circle instructor member decides to use it for field landing training or suchlike. There are legions of power pilots that would queue up to fly a motorglider from a friendly airfield, with great social scene and members environment etc.. I reckon stacks of potential students would do their PPL training on motorgliders as well given the chance.

[Mechta]

Didn't someone fly a self launching motor glider from the UK to the South of France on 2 1/2 gallons of fuel?

[ProfChrisReed]

In answer to Pete Stratten's original query I think I have the, or at least an, answer (I initiated the other thread). I've put a package together- see new thread http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/456376-gliding-package-ppls-ridgewell-essex-suffolk-border.html#post6550755. (http://www.pprune.org/private-flying/456376-gliding-package-ppls-ridgewell-essex-suffolk-border.html#post6550755)

If this wouldn't work for you (done locally, of course), tell Pete what's wrong with it.

[Unusual Attitude]

My local gliding club had a fly / in open day this weekend so I went along to give it a try and very much enjoyed it.

It seemed to me that there was a bit of leg pulling about being a powered pilot and not being able to use our feet etc etc but other than that everyone was very friendly and I intend going back to try to progress as quickly as possible to solo.

Flying the glider itself didnt seem very demanding at all, bit of a lethargic thing if I'm honest and required far less footwork than flying a high performance taildragger though I understand that this isnt where the real skill in gliding lies.

Looking forward to getting stuck in properly !

Regards

UA

[Katamarino]

Why do gliding clubs have airfield frequencies if they never bother manning them? I spent a summer gliding at one club, and was amazed at the attitude to the radio; they hardly seemed to know it existed. With a lot of other airfields around the location, and plenty of passing traffic, it seems to me simple courtesy to put in the small effort of using a radio.

After all, you can't complain that powered pilots aren't safe enough with one breath while blustering about not needing the added safety of radios with the next.

[FleetFlyer]

Having started out in gliders and moved over to power once finances allowed, I can see both side of the argument. I'm not a team player so gliding isn't for me, though I have my fondest flying memories from flying gliders. I do miss the challenge of soaring but I don't miss the avaerage day which consisted of the pushing gliders about, getting looked down on becuase of being a youngster with low experience, etc etc.

I would love the challenge of soaring again and would love to do it in a motor glider so as to not have to wait around all day for a 5 minute flight from a winch launch.

In fact, I have been know to throttle back my current plane until its sink rate is similar to a mediocre glider and then go thermalling until the CHTs start to drop below minimums, at which point its time to think of something else to entertain myself.

[S-Works]

Wow, Pete Stratten, that name brings back a few fond memories!!

Welcome!

[Say again s l o w l y]

It seemed to me that there was a bit of leg pulling about being a powered pilot and not being able to use our feet etc etc but other than that everyone was very friendly and I intend going back to try to progress as quickly as possible to solo.

They'd obviously never flown a pitts or an R22 then!

[thing]

Why do gliding clubs have airfield frequencies if they never bother manning them? I think you can certainly level that argument at some powered fields too!!

PPS Hinton manages to keep free-fall para, gliding and powered flying apart from each other, Halton with powered and gliding and also Gamston with powered and gliding - as long as you all have a good understanding of each others needs and procedures then all can work quite nicely.Gamston gliding has been shut for some years now, they got the boot as the powered side got too busy and they finally edged them out, I'm happy to be corrected on that but that's the story I got. They amalgamated with Newark and Notts who lost the use of the showground at Newark and they now fly at Darlton, just to the East of Gamston, and it's a very friendly club with a variety of pilots many of whom have PPL/NPPL/SLMG, you name it somebody will have it.

Having recently gone over to 'dirty' flying as well as gliding I can see things from both sides now, cue Joni Mitchell, and all I can say is they are two different disciplines and each brings something different to the plate of the pilot. Having been brought up on the 'hanging around all day' gliding club scene I still think it's pretty amazing that you can just turn up and fly powered and then go home. It's really novel to me.

I like doing them both, they do both have a completely different culture but as long as you accept that and don't try and compare then you should have no problem. By the way, even as a glider pilot I've been to some pretty snotty gliding clubs as well. I haven't been to an unfriendly powered field yet but I'm sure they must be around.

[jamlip]

A few years back I booked a trial flight at Lasham. The instructor (a fireman) was superb and the flying was magic. I was completely hooked.

I went back a few times but on each occasion the weather wasn't great and no-one was flying.

When the weather finally sorted itself out, I drove down there and got stuck in, helping retrieve and connect the winch. I didn't mind doing it because I had been told that gliding was a club activity, and you needed to get involved if you wanted to be involved. And I definitely wanted to be involved. Near the end of the day a family pitched up, took all the slots, and I didn't get to fly. I didn't understand why, and I drove home that evening pretty pissed off.

I tried it once more, but the same thing happened. I noticed that there were people sitting around waiting, not doing anything, yet still flying club aircraft, whilst I helped out and got nothing except thanks, which was OK, but no substitute for being in the air.

I realised that if I wanted to be in the sky I couldn't rely on these people, because, as much as everyone will tell you that gliding is a club activity, they were really there to fly, not watch other people fly. So I sacked it off and went and did my PPL at White Waltham. I found out about the LAA, and when I had completed my license, I bought a permit aircraft which I now keep on a strip up the road from my home.

I'll admit I don't enjoy the powered plane as much as I did the gliding, but it allows me to do my own thing whenever I like, which is brilliant. I put the (non) gliding experience down to being part of the journey.

[mary meagher]

Well, it's all part of life's rich tapestry. Flying a glider gives you a quality of experience that simply does not exist in the other camp. And flying light aircraft is also good fun, and the regimen is very good for those who enjoy private flying and can afford the petrol. As others have mentioned, motor gliders are a compromise between the two sports, worth seeking out your local motor gliding school. There is room for all types in the sky, just keep on keeping a good lookout!

[pulse1]

I phoned Nympsfield today because I am looking for a landing site near Stroud. Although they appear in the Lockyears Farm guide and quote a landing fee they do not allow powered aircraft in unless on gliding business apparently.

[tggzzz]

I phoned Nympsfield today because I am looking for a landing site near Stroud. Although they appear in the Lockyears Farm guide and quote a landing fee they do not allow powered aircraft in unless on gliding business apparently.

I don't know the specific position at Nympsfield, but you may well find that planning permission is a dominant factor. If the planning permission for a club was granted based on it being a gliding club, then it would be no surprise that non-gliding activities are precluded.

[ProfChrisReed]

Nympsfield would have been interesting if you are used to runways. It's a nice, big expanse of grass but distinctly up and downy! A/c in the first and sceond dips aren't visible from the launchpoint, to give you some idea.

Planning permission is often the big issue - my airfield (Ridgewell) is no power other than tugging, and a former club was restricted to about a dozen non-tugging movements each year.

[blagger]

Think there has been some good points from all quarters on here - any feedback from the Original Poster would be interesting?

[mary meagher]

Nympsfield can present problems to the unwary. Big time curlover from that splendid ridge, tall trees on one approach, power lines, and lurking nearby, at least one wind generator, as I recall.

My favourite was watching a glider do a competition finish at Nympsfield, swooping low along the field at high speed, pulling up to go around on the circuit...and got caught in the curlover, had to land out in the valley below. Oh yes!

[petestratten]

Thanks for the info - very helpful, particularly when the thread stays on track!

I'll monitor the helpful feedback for a bit longer before taking the info away to carefully consider the detail.

Pete