£100k fri

[Redcarpet]

The Sunday Times is reporting that "RAF Chiefs are paying senior pilots £100,000 to stay in the Air Force...."

I was just wondering if that was a realistic figure, if not how much would it take?

[Gnd]

8 months a year at home - minimum!!!!!

[VinRouge]

Depends who it targets. If its going for those at 38, you might get a couple of takers. But those planning to go will still go. The big problem thats going to develop will happen later this year, when a few carriers are (allegedly) going to drop the TR requirement.

Personally reckon we are going to start to lose a lot at the option point, as any announcement there is go to tie in quite nicely with the next round of allowance and potentially pension changes.

Cuts to FP/changes to entitlement - lots more will walk.

Cuts to pension gratuity/pension at 38 - lots more will walk.

60/50K over 5 years? Sorry, not enough with some of the frankly rediculous (tax free) pay offers available globally both inside and out of the aviation world. If they want to do something revolutionary, they might want to look at significantly extending the PA scheme.

[wokkamate]

Yawn....:zzz:

not new news, this FRI has been around for a while now and as ever has targeted those who are staying in and not those who were always going to leave. £58,500 after Tax and NI - nice sum but not enough to keep those who want to leave methinks! :ugh:

[high spirits]

Not RAF. All military pilots of lt cdr, Sqn Ldr, major at 38 paid for 5 more years of service. A no cost option as it works out exactly the same per month as your pension. For the MOD it is a win-win cos they don't have to train a replacement. Lazy Sunday times guff.....

[ACSfirstfail]

emmmm.......£100K to stay in but not in a flying post......nah!

[tmobile]

A no cost option as it works out exactly the same per month as your pension.

Apart from the cost of paying them their wage still, whilst giving them the equivalent pension payments.

[5 Forward 6 Back]

... but if they left, they'd have to pay a salary to their replacement, so the net cost of the post stays the same....?

Just this way, the same person takes both payments!

[tmobile]

But if they decide to stay then they are paying two Sqn Ldr wages and an FRI for the lucky one as the idea is to keep one or both of them.

[newt]

Not RAF. All military pilots of lt cdr, Sqn Ldr, major at 38 paid for 5 more years of service. A no cost option as it works out exactly the same per month as your pension. For the MOD it is a win-win cos they don't have to train a replacement. Lazy Sunday times guff.....

Can you please explai the maths?:)

[micksmith]

Lazy journalism
Not RAF. All military pilots of lt cdr, Sqn Ldr, major at 38 paid for 5 more years of service. A no cost option as it works out exactly the same per month as your pension. For the MOD it is a win-win cos they don't have to train a replacement. Lazy Sunday times guff.....

Very definitely just RAF. The Sunday Times had the actual document which extended FRI from April last year until April 2013. It did NOT include the Army. It did include the RN but they pulled out after the SDSR. The RAF is continuing with it and the MoD confirmed both that the RN had pulled out and that the £100,000 would be paid to all serving RAF pilots of squadron-leader level and above up to Gp Capt who reached their 18 year point or the age of 40 (depending on their pension scheme) and elected to stay on, so actually just a lazy post.

Now is it sensible and necessary, or even financially good sense? I dont know. The MoD had the opportunity to put that case and didnt. You surely need to keep some experienced pilots, but paying them to stay in when you are getting rid of 170 keen young trainees seems, in the current climate, a bit odd to say the least.

[Airborne Aircrew]

You surely need to keep some experienced pilots, but paying them to stay in when you are getting rid of 170 keen young trainees seems, in the current climate, a bit odd to say the least.

There's a saying that goes something like this:-

Youth and speed will always be trumped by experience and treachery...

[high spirits]

Pension for 38 year old leaving at 16 year point is approx £800 per month. FRI is not £58,000, it is £50,500 because of 50p tax bracket. That equals £10,000 per year, or you've guessed it £800 per month.

Mick, if the Army and RN are not paying it, then they are not retaining pilots. Hence in the long term they are costing the system more money by training replacements earlier at £3m each. More fool them.

I'm telling you, it's a no cost option that saves the system money in the long term. Nothing to do with the decision to axe 170 trainees which was just short sighted stupidity..

[The Old Fat One]

Youth and speed will always be trumped by experience and treachery...



shhusssshhhh....

Never give away your edge

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Pension for 38 year old leaving at 16 year point is approx £800 per month. FRI is not £58,000, it is £50,500 because of 50p tax bracket. That equals £10,000 per year, or you've guessed it £800 per month.


I'm telling you, it's a no cost option that saves the system money in the long term...

Whilst I have no counter to the future training costs, although those costs are inevitable anyway the FRI is anything but a saving. It's an extremely short term fix for a very obvious problem but it's certainly not a no cost option.

If a pension payment at 38 is approx £800 then by leaving that is all the person gets.

By paying the FRI the same person gets £800 on top of their annual wage for 5 years which is hardly no cost. Add to that future pay rises, incremental rises etc and it soon becomes way more costly to keep someone in via FRI than it is to let them go.

I am not saying FRI is wrong, all I am saying is it ain't cheap :ok:

[Fortissimo]

Micksmith, FRI vs trainees makes sense if you consider things from the operational effectiveness and flying supervision perspectives. Trainees are, by definition, inexperienced when they arrive on the front line, and their numbers are managed to try to keep overall experience levels as high as possible on every squadron. There are lots of things trainees can't do, simply because it is not economically or temporally viable to expose them to every scenario during initial training. It takes time for (eg) a new FJ pilot to reach the stage where he or she is usefully deployable for combat ops. And understanding of the risks inherent in any particular event comes with experience - that is why the system uses the more experienced (not necessarily more senior in rank) aircrew to supervise the activities of less experienced aviators with the aim of ensuring that they do not over-reach themselves through failure to recognise dangers.

The other aspect is a straight economic one. If BA or Virgin have a problem with experience levels or a black hole appearing in the manpower because of a cluster of same-aged inviduals (who will retire at the same time), they can simply buy in suitably experienced crew from elsewhere. That option is not available to the military. However, paying an FRI to keep someone who would otherwise have left means that you have effectively bought their experience and training, and increased the return on the training investment you made in them in the first place. That is good business, not bad management.

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

It's bad business and bad management, there is absolutely no good business case to make for it.

If management cannot effectively plan intake v outgoing then they should not be in management.

FRI cost the tax payer a whole lot more than any perceived saving :=

[micksmith]

Fortissimo
I do entirely understand the need for experienced pilots and of course that's right but surely pilots in their 30s are experienced and would seem to my admittedly inexpert eye to be the guys you want to keep, and pay extra if you have to. Someone who is 38 or 40 must be coming to the end of the flying career. In an organisation like the forces where youth is important IMHO you need throughput of younger people, and people at age 40 either moving onto management or going out and taking up a second career so that the guys in their 30s get promotion and dont feel there is no point staying in. Bunging a group captain who is still an active pilot a hundred grand to stay doing it surely doesnt make any sort of sense?

[Fortissimo]

SFFP, I guess we will have to disagree. In this case any planning that management may have done would have left via the window of SDSR. If you talk to any of the strategic manpower planners they will tell you that it is not possible to predict all the market conditions (especially financial) that affect intake and especially outflow. It is not an exact science and the controls take time to have any effect.

The equivalent of FRIs happen every day across the commercial sector - if companies really want to retain a particular individual or their skills, they just pay more.

[high spirits]

SFFP,
Somebody must have made a very good business case for it, or it would not have made it past the scrutineers from all 3 Services. Yet again we have the RAF being blamed for AIDS, world poverty and ginger hair when all 3 Services signed up to it in the first instance. That is lazy RAF bashing journalism typical of the times.
The FRI is a retention measure not unlike the measures taken in civvy street at whatever the going 'Market rate' happens to be. There are also FRIs for Counter IED and other less desireable professions. The fact that there are pruners saying that it is not enough to keep them from leaving means that as a renumeration amount, it is not working. It costs less to keep a pilot for 5 more years at 50k than to train a new one, fact. It is a no cost option that saves the need to train a new pilot at £3m a pop, fact.

It is devisive if you don't qualify for it, fact....

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Mick,

How many gp capt pilots qualify for this FRI?

Duncs:ok:

[micksmith]

Dunc Good point, well made. No idea. Not many I would guess but none should and the scheme shouldn't be going up that far. It's the armed forces for God's sake, you keep guys who are above 40 and are in senior ranks if they are good in the management role, not to be pilots, and certainly not if you're axing loads of young guys who are the future.

My point about pilots in their 30s providing the experience that is obviously needed is surely right though, as is the point that keeping guys in who are in their 40s is just turning promotion into dead man's boots and making the guys in their 30s, who you surely dont want to lose, decide enough is enough.

High spirits. This is not RAF bashing. I told you in my earlier post, which you seemed at the time to accept. The army was never in the FRI extension that is currently in place - that's in the document - and the RN have pulled out, that is not me saying it, it is confirmed by the MoD.

[high spirits]

Mick, the army and RN were in the FRI, just not the doc that you have seen which is the most up to date one. There was also an FRI for AH QHIs aswell. All 3 Services signed up to the FRI from 2010 to 2013. What has happened since is that the Army and RN have retained enough personnel to get rid of the offer.

Icon with head banging against wall x 10..

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Mick,

I'd have to disagree with your point regarding 40+ year old pilots.;)

Duncs:ok:

[micksmith]

Understandably so Dunc, understandably so!

[tmobile]

This topic is obviously close to some of your hearts. Can I ask how many this will affect on this thread?

[PlasticCabDriver]

Wasn't enough 3 years ago, and wouldn't be enough now.

[wokkamate]

High Spirits:

Pension for 38 year old leaving at 16 year point is approx £800 per month. FRI is not £58,000, it is £50,500 because of 50p tax bracket. That equals £10,000 per year, or you've guessed it £800 per month.

I got £58,500 when they paid it into my bank account, must have been lucky enough to miss out on the 50p tax bracket? I am staying for the time being, but will be gone quick smart at the end of my 5years.....had enough.:ugh:

[high spirits]

Wokka,
Yep, the greedy robbin' b@stard of a tax man taketh away more. Somehow it doesn't look quite as attractive as the daily guff made it out to be...It may pay for a licence though!!