I'll talk, you fight - PM

[BlindWingy]

Fresh from today's news conference:

BBC News - David Cameron criticises comments over Libya mission (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-13857733)

Does he have a point?

[unkind43]

How many times have you been given a task without full resources by someone higher up than you. Now imagine you complained to said higher auth or some one else in the c of c, my guess is you'd be told to stop whinging and get on with it. Dread to think what would happen if you then complained to the local/national rags.

[The Helpful Stacker]

ACM Bryant didn't complain to the "local/national rags", his comments were in response to questions asked by MPs and were apparently leaked from the House of Commons.

Or in other words, someone who is authorised asked, he responded and then the minutes were published.

[Jabba_TG12]

I'd rather they spoke up and looked after the guys who they send to do the fighting. Anything that makes an elected PM of the day think long and hard about committing resources to combat is, in my mind, to be welcomed. And if this conflicts with Treasury led plans to reduce the nations defences - the first obligation of any government - to a point where it can barely defend itself, yes, dagnammit they should speak out.

And, if they speak out and no-one listens, I have a particular admiration for those who put their commissions where their mouths and their convictions are and walk, instead of just sitting back, keeping as low a profile as possible and collecting their pensions.

I'd also like to think that these recent two outbursts are a sign of the shape of things to come, that our leaders will not be afraid or too self serving to speak out in the interests of the services that they lead, but given the knife-fight-in-a-phone-box antics are still going on re PR11 and 12, the cynic in me says that some of this may still be for purposes less altruistic.

Remains to be seen I guess. Cameron is on shaky ground. "You fight, I talk" is a Blairite throwaway soundbite and not worthy of a PM. I'd be prepared to cut him an awful lot more slack if the SDSR that he took a very personal interest in wasnt such a complete and utter treasury led clusterf**k.

IMVVVVHO, natch. :\

[RumPunch]

Well AVM Bryant I for one have finally seen somebody stand up and say it how it really is, the PM was pre warned in May yet he bleats on.

Finally somebody with balls and character from the RAF to say it how it is :ok::D

Pity there is not many others that have the courage to put there career on the line.

[beardy]

AVM Bryant

ACM

At least he knows the detail.

[glojo]

Well AVM Bryant I for one have finally seen somebody stand up and say it how it really is, the PM was pre warned in May yet he bleats on.

Finally somebody with balls and character from the RAF to say it how it is http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/thumbs.gif:D

Pity there is not many others that have the courage to put there career on the line.Did he?

Did he actually have the guts to stand in front of a TV camera and voice this opinion? If so I must have missed it.

I get the impression he was asked a question by a person that was entitled to hear the truth... NOT A JOURNALIST

I am assuming that it was this person that allegedly has the 'balls and character' to put half their head above the parapet??

Hopefully I have just missed the footage where this courageous officer had the guts to publicly voice his warranted concerns??

[E L Whisty]

My opinion of Cameron proceeds downhill ever faster. Whose fight is this anyway? Who was the 'world leader' who thrust himself forward to commit our people to yet another intervention in another country with little or no benefit to the UK interest? And who is the utter dick who has steadfastly refused to fund his wars. I expected it of Blair and Brown, they are traitorous slime, beneath contempt. One an 'on the make' snake oil salesman and the other a Fascist dictator with a hatred of humanity.

Is Cameron a statesman or a confused and unprincipled middle manager elected way beyond his competence? I think the latter.

Smedley Butler got it right. We should have paid attention.

[fincastle84]

It would be very useful if people actually read the Telegraph article.

The ACM prepared the briefing paper at the request of a Parliamentary committee. Therefore he was only doing his job, no more, no less. The fact that someone in the MOD, or Parliament, subsequently leaked the document, is hardly his fault.

I don't give a toss that Cameron is embarrassed by the contents of the brief. So he should be, because as already stated, the SDSR was a crock of sh*t. As usual the long suffering military are left to carry the can.

What I do find amazing is that during a time of high unemployment the RAF is unable to recruit enough candidates to fill serveral highly qualified trades. If he carries on like this, Cameron will have far greater success at detroying the RAF than Hitler ever did!

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

Shadow Defence Secretary Dr Liam Fox said: 'The honesty and bravery of our fighting forces stands in stark contrast to the weasel words and dishonesty of their political masters.

'All of this results from a decade of neglect of our Armed Forces, and their families, by the Labour Government - because Gordon Brown, as Chancellor, was never willing to fully fund Tony Blair’s wars.'

Read more: 'Treasury-imposed cap' meant British Army could only afford to fight Taliban once a month | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1191885/Treasury-imposed-cap-meant-British-Army-afford-fight-Taliban-month.html#ixzz1PvCwWZjb)



(Thanks to Brimstone52 in the Torygraph for this link)

[Monty77]

Lord Farquar in Shrek said to his heroes,"Some of you may die, but that is a risk I'm prepared to take.".

The PM might as well have said,"You do the dying, I'll do the talking.".

I'm a Tory of the Maggie era, but I now question my political beliefs when a Tory PM talks like that. Actually, I question the whole rotten House of Lizards when the likes of Frank Dobson et al are living in central London in 3 bed apartments for 400 quid a month when the market rate is four times that.

I question the MPs' free private health care for them and their families, their outrageous allowances for which they are afforded secretarial allowances to fill in the forms for them, as they are apparently above that. I question their pensions. I question their subsidized bars and restaurants and above all, their 'privileges' as 'Right Honourable Members'. There are a few good'uns. Frank Skinner, the 'Beast of Bolsover' is a man so far to the Left of my political leanings that he is next to Pluto. But he had the decency not to vote for a pay rise, and when all the other pigs did, didn't take it. That, to me, puts him head and shoulders above the rest of the political elite who do what the whips tell them to. Which brings me back to Cameron. Cromwell sacked all the crap politicians of the Rump parliament, because when it comes down to it, fighting well turns out to be more useful than talking well. We can fight well given limited resources. Cameron indicates his oratorical skill and political judgement when he dismisses the Armed Forces with such a glib, inept statement which comes across as: "I'm the suit, go and die, pleb.".

I really don't like what's happening to my country.

[sharpend]

This is what DC said

"At a press conference on Tuesday, Cameron showed his impatience with the remarks, saying: "There are moments where I wake up and read the newspapers and think, 'Look, tell you what, you do the fighting and I'll do the talking'

If that is true, that is rich coming from a man who has never seen combat. If our Government ask the military to lay down their lives for it's foreign policy (regardless of whether that policy is the right policy for UK), then the least it can do is ask the military to to do what is possible and with the very best resources.

[MechGov]

David Cameron said: "There are moments when I wake up and read the newspapers and think: 'I tell you what, you do the dying and I'll do the talking'."

[Tracey Island]

Message to CMD, 'you have two ears and one mouth, please use in that ratio'.
;)

[jamesdevice]

so if Cameron wants to "do the talking", who is doing all the thinking for him?

[A2QFI]

A Certain well known WW2 RAF Squadron Commander declared his unit non-operational for lack of spares and got some PDQ! Problem is we don't have a budget to buy stuff and the delivery timescale for what we need in years not months. The ACM speaks the truth and Cameron is a non-military To:mad::mad: ser

[Wrathmonk]

a non-military Tohttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gifhttp://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/censored.gif ser

Any guesses on his Nom de PPRuNe. Plenty of candidates regularly post on this board ....:E:E:E

[soddim]

So we have a PM of a so-called democracy that does not like others to talk - what happened to the free speech that our soldiers sailors and airmen fought so hard for?

Well done Simon Bryant - anybody think he didn't speak the truth?

[Grumpy106]

Cameron has really shot himself in the foot on this one. His remarkably petty throw-away line is reminiscent of Brown at his worst. Time to start listening Dave: instead of signing more cheques to prop up failing 'western-looking' dictatorships and calling it 'Foreign Aid', spend the money where it is needed, defending the people who defend you, you @r$e.

[Archimedes]

Message to CMD, 'you have two ears and one mouth, please use in that ratio'.
;)

At the risk of being uncouth, he also has one anus and appears to be utilising it in lieu of his mouth on this issue...

[Mechta]

'Look, tell you what, you do the fighting and I'll do the talking'Sounds like a perfect opportunity to say. 'Its a deal'. Put Cameron as close to the front line as any servicemen get, so he can see what is really involved. If he gets killed, no problem, there are plenty of others waiting to fill his Westminster shoes.

[teeteringhead]

But as Sir Simon's words were written for MPs, he is just answering our political masters' questions as he is supposed to do.

Unless of course the leak came from High Wycombe, rather than Westminster or Canary Wharf........:E

[fincastle84]

But as Sir Simon's words were written for MPs, he is just answering our political masters' questions as he is supposed to do.

And if you don't like the answer, why ask the question in the first place. At this rate I might even consider, very slowly, joining a Trades Union.

[Melchett01]

No he doesn't have a point. For once, the politicians should shut up and actually listen to what their expert military advisors are telling them.

I would happily put money on the fact that he would be taking the very same points a lot more seriously if they came from his 'special advisors' or spin doctors rather than the heads of the military, such is the way of the Westminster Village.

Once again rather than getting shirty with the military, he should look closer to Parliament for the source of the leaks.

[Geehovah]

Dare I say that the PM may need a briefing? Air Command, COMMANDs the air forces, provide forces at readiness and allocates the resources needed to do the job. Alternatively, read that as; provides advice on the commitments which need to be dropped or throttled back to meet the resources. Unless I was asleep during the HAWC, PJHQ is the operational HQ and are the ones who should direct/do the fighting.

It strikes me that, for once, Simon said exactly what needed to be said and it was well within his remit. The Air Force can do the job - but not for ever, on a declining budget and decreasing assets, unless something gives.

Politicians take note!!!

[Out Of Trim]

PM Dave Cameron, try doing a little thinking before you start talking! I expected this sort of crap from Gordon Brown; but, this so-called prime minister is proving himself to be no better!

He really needs to get a grip over reality. We have too few military resources left and if he wants us to do the fighting, he needs to fully provide the means and the money to carry them through.

So call me Dave, I suggest unless you feel like doing the fighting yourself, and believe me I'm quite up for a ruck with you myself over some of your stupid decisions and comments lately; man up and listen to the military for a change! :ugh:

[Brian 48nav]

I think you'll find that FRANK Skinner is a 'beast of the Black Country' - the name you wanted is Dennis. The only Labour MP I've any time for - not that I support his opinions but at least he hasn't been silenced by the whips.

[Monty77]

Brian

Thank you for your correction. You are quite right.

Monty

[A2QFI]

Although he has not intervened much in military matters Frank Field is an MP who has my respect. He says what he thinks, and is usually right, but doesn't care who he upsets.,

[theonewhoknows]

I have just seen Cameron on TV. I now understand the sentiment expressed by previous posters. I'm incandescent with anger.

[Dengue_Dude]

Couldn't wait for the government to change.

Still waiting, this man is an arrogant ****. Did you see his face when he used the phrase, he was really proud of that!

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

I'm waiting with bated breath to see how Mickey Mouse Dave gets out of this one....if indeed he thinks he has to!!
It's true, as Tories we wait for three parliaments to get the Government we want and then this spineless bunch of non entities show up:eek:
No, I don't think he has a point.

[The Old Fat One]

And if you don't like the answer, why ask the question in the first place. At this rate I might even consider, very slowly, joining a Trades Union.


SPCK

Do they have them for retired navs? :E

PS Can't resist a crow...careful what you wish for was my message two years ago...and now you know why.

[manccowboy]

Monty77
I really don't like what's happening to my country.It stopped being our country decades ago when we opened the migrant floodgates, we natives now have less rights and are second class to those that invaded.

As for the armed chiefs, its about time they stood shoulder to shoulder and told these public school boys prats publicly to ****off......but we alraedy know they dont have the balls todo that......career before country......they make me sick.

[3 bladed beast]

"Call me Dave''

He'd be lucky to get called a C**t.

[jindabyne]

Cameron got my vote on the grounds that Labour hadn't been fit to Govern for some years, and that he could surely do no worse and should be given the opportunity to improve matters. In spite of non-supportive counselling from friends and family, I took the view that he deserved two or three years in which to demonstrate my 'faith' in him. Subsequently, the ludicrous number of banana skins and about-turns have nurtured a probability to me of a man who is out of his depth, and until today my self-doubts over his ability to perform as a competent Prime Minister have festered.

This latest remark in response to his military leaders' well-held professional opinions in time of conflicts more than reinforces my concern. I now have now absolutely no respect for the person and his Government. He is a disgrace to his office, and should go soon before he leads us into a deeper abyss - regardless of who follows him, provided that Balls is not involved. Churchill would be aghast.

[DADDY-OH!]

Strewth Jindy'

I bet 'Early Doors' in the Ram' was a hoot tonight!!!

[TheSmiter]

I listened to that one wee remark with disbelief. I don't think the PM has twigged how pivotal those few words will be in driving the final nail into countless career coffins.

You do the talking Dave, many more will be doing the walking. Nice one.

[StingerStrike]

So much for our military covenant! But then it's now written in black and white...so he can't possibly be in breach?!? Can he?

I believe Charles Moore has hit the nail on the head with the following article...

Lawyers should never come between a nation and its troops - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/comment/columnists/charlesmoore/8583424/Lawyers-should-never-come-between-a-nation-and-its-troops.html)

[Romeo Oscar Golf]

provided that Balls is not involved

Wasn't that the problem? They, our leaders, Military and Parliamentary, didn't appear to have any.
Sorry-I'm leaving.

[camacho]

Given how quickly the wheels seem to be coming off every policy the coalition has, and given the rumoured unease inside the Tory Party, I'm sure Call-Me-C**t (3-Bladed Beast spot on there) woke up to news of this leak, threw his teddy at the wall and had a quiet scream in the Rose Garden. But then this is a punter who rightly kicked Labour for doling out jobs to its mates, then got into power and, if the Torygraph is to be believed, tried to put his personal photographer and film maker on our tax bill.

David Cameron's personal photographer taken off public payroll - Telegraph (http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/politics/david-cameron/8136497/David-Camerons-personal-photographer-taken-off-public-payroll.html)

Put simply, though, if you don't want stuff like this leaking out, you have two unpalatable (to a pol) choices : pony up for armed forces that can do this kind of work for as long as it needs to be done, or put a spike through your ego and stop mincing across the world stage. Things cost what they cost, war is never cheap, and if you haven't grasped that after a lifetime sitting on your backside swotting up for the job you're in, go, and let's get Nosher Powell for PM.

[Roland Pulfrew]

'Look, tell you what, you do the fighting and I'll do the talking'

Take a message Baldrick.

Message reads:

David Cameron. With the number of current and former senior officers telling you have got it wrong on Defence, perhaps whilst we do the fighting (and dying) perhaps you might stop talking and do some listening.

With everyone from junior ranks to senior ranks telling you SDSR was not about strategy and is/was all a crock of sh:mad:te perhaps a lot more listening is in order.

I do hope that you will be apologising to Sir Simon Bryant.

Message ends.

[endplay]

where's beags?

[Halton Brat]

I knew we would end up at this pass; at my discharge interview (hat & coffee) with the Stn Cdr in the mid '90s, I voiced my concern for the future of an RAF in the hands of the likes of Mr Portillo & his ilk. The Stn Cdr declined this golden opportunity to debate such weighty matters with a mere Chf Tech, resplendent though I was in my Best Blue, and gazed wistfully out of his window at the Phantom parked on God's Acre.

The inevitable passing of the generation of politicians who saw active service in WW2/Korea has left our Forces in the hands of a generation of 'leaders' for whom the 'Rambo' movie genre has provided the foundation of their military vision. Tony Blair, upon his postcode change to a Downing St address, revealed his intimate knowledge of the structure of HM Forces by estimating SAS strength at 40,000 (actual at the time: c400).

I would implore & entreat those retiring from HM Forces to become politically active, in order that we may once again have elected representatives with an understanding of matters military.

However, if a more honourable career path is desired, then perhaps drug dealing/gun running/paedophilia could be considered.

I'm sure that I hear 'Drake's Drum' beating..............

HB

[jindabyne]

Daddy

Somewhat briefer than your Falklands piece!!

The Ram?? You know full well that real politics are versed in that other place ----

[DADDY-OH!]

Jindy'

Yes, next time I'm passing, I'll grab a Guinness & take a pew in the Public Gallery, especially when it's 'Colonel's Questions' or 'Red Leader's Rants'.

[JFZ90]

I think this is really really bad.

Is it just me or is this the rudest, more disrespectful comment ever to be uttered by a PM to the armed forces?

They must be absolutely fuming!!!

Rather than be contrite about underfunding in these difficult times, hes effectively saying "carry on fighting/dying and I don't expect any compliants about us underfunding you".

Not good. When asking the military to do difficult things with scarce resource, the absolute minimum is to ask politely and with respect.

Cameron really is not PM material is he?

Shocked.

[FODPlod]

Talk is cheap except when it's at the expense of listening and the lives of brave men and women are at stake.

And to think I supported him on the basis that he'd save the Armed Forces after a decade of financial flat-lining by Blair and Brown who, despite involving us as the 'other' main player in two resource-draining wars, threw money at every government department other than Defence.

[ghostnav]

Won't be long before he will be filmed shaking hands with troops somewhere as if nothing had been said.

[Exascot]

I just can't believe he said that.

There is only one explanation, he has taken up an old habit:

Exclusive: Cameron DID smoke cannabis | Mail Online (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-435393/Exclusive-Cameron-DID-smoke-cannabis.html)

[500N]

Maybe Cameron needs to do the talking but before he does that, like opening his mouth and getting the Def Forces involved in another war, he needs to provide
the Generals with the goods to fight the war, then they might not do so much talking.

[A2QFI]

Gobby Cameron and many of his Cabinet in their fighting uniform

Google Image Result for http://3.bp.********.com/-jc5ApKflWZo/TVg7U9YEP2I/AAAAAAAAAAc/Qd_hIjPN8u4/s1600/cameron-bullingdon-club.jpg (http://tinyurl.com/42ewfty)

[multum in parvo]

The way that the UK forces operate within our democracy is critical both for their standing in society and the health of our democracy. As part of that process the senior leaders of the military have, within their remit, a responsibility (duty?) to provide, on request from our elected leaders, their advice/opinions concerning their Service. That advice/opinion may be given to the PM, Ministers or the HoC Defence Committee (you can find some very good video footage which records verbatim evidence given to the HoC Defence Committee on the HoC website) either aurally or in written form.

It is vital that those who hold the government to account in the HoC ( and vote when applicable on policy/decisions that affect the Armed Forces) have, as near as possible, the accurate information to hand - warts and all. As far as I can see, from the public reports to which we all have access, CinC Air has done nothing more than meet his responsibilities in this area.

I hope that the PM had no intention of suggesting that senior serving officers in the Armed Forces should not be playing their part in ensuring a healthy democracy and therefore that his off the cuff remark was just that. In the circumstances I would hope (as others have mentioned) that the PM should write to Sir Simon to clarify.

Having been privileged to serve on operations under his command it is my view that Sir Simon Bryant is a first class professional officer who serves his country to the best of his, undoubtedly, outstanding ability. One would hope that others who operate within our democratic process could demonstrate the same

[rjtjrt]

Not being from UK it is probably impertinent to express an opinion but what the heck.
To me it seems refreshing to have a poli/PM who speaks his mind. No politically correct minder telling him what to say, or how to put it so he doesn't offend anyone.
The opposite of spin.
It seemed the Brits were sick of spin with the previous incumbent. Well this is it - no spin. And refreshing.
I can't say what he said isn't basically true.
In our neck of the wood we have more and more press conferences from defence force chiefs than I ever recall in the past. And they (def chiefs) now speak poli-speak, and are ever so politically correct.
Surely defence force chiefs should express there opinion re what they can and can't do, with the resources supplied, to the politicians (and I heard in this case the defence chief apparently said it to a parliamentary committee and it was leaked).
Defence force chief may well have to tell poli that the service can't provide the were with all to do what the poli wants to announce as foreign policy. Suddenly the poli may see there are consequences to them of the cuts, and to their ambitions on the world stage.
John

[taxydual]

What value The Armed Forces Covenant now?

The Government recognises the need to do more to ensure our Armed Forces, veterans and their families have the support they need and are treated with the dignity they deserve.

My bold.

Ministry of Defence | About Defence | What we do | Personnel | Welfare | Armed Forces Covenant | The Armed Forces Covenant (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/AboutDefence/WhatWeDo/Personnel/Welfare/ArmedForcesCovenant/)

[Alexander.Yakovlev]

All this after his speech at the Sovereigns Parade at Cranwell last Thursday. Very two faced.

[jindabyne]

I'll grab a Guinness & take a pew in the Public Gallery

You know your place!

[glojo]

Not being from UK it is probably impertinent to express an opinion but what the heck.
To me it seems refreshing to have a poli/PM who speaks his mind. No politically correct minder telling him what to say, or how to put it so he doesn't offend anyone.
The oposite of spin.
It seemed the Brits were sick of spin with the previous incumbent. Well this is it - no spin. And refreshing.
I can't say what he said isn't basically true.
In our neck of the wood we have more and more press conferences from defence force chiefs than I ever recall in the past. And they (def chiefs) now speak poli-speak, and are ever so politically correct.
Surely defence force chiefs should express there opinion re what they can and can't do, with the resources supplied, to the politicians (and I heard in this case the defence chief apparently said it to a parliamentary committee and it was leaked).
Defence force chief may well have to tell poli that the service can't provide the were with all to do what the poli wants to announce as foreign policy. Suddenly the poli may see there are consequences to the cuts to them and their ambitions on the world stage.
John Good morning John,
Well said and I guess Cameron did not pull any punches but I am slightly confused as to the target.

The officer involved most certainly did NOT speak out of turn, I would have respected him more if he had of done. I am with all due respect to our Brylcreem boys and now girls, more disappointed regarding the lack of support shown to this officer by his immediate boss.

My personal thoughts regarding those above the rank of anyone that does the actual fighting is that they are usually more interested in their very own career development as opposed to what is best for those they serve\represent. (note the word 'usually' and please observe it is NOT the word 'always' as I note the First Sea Lord had the audacity to publicly voice his concerns regarding similar issues)

Air Chief Marshal Bryant was asked in private and in confidence what his opinion was. He gave that opinion in a way I fear he would not have divulged publicly. If this officer had known the information was going to be leaked with his name at the top of the paper, does anyone hear honestly believe he would have uttered a word out of line?

If the Head of the RAF were to now come out publicly and stand by every word of this Air Chief Marshal then I would start to rethink my opinions of these people that I say again are usually more interested in titles than they are in there profession.

The senior service (http://www.guardian.co.uk/politics/2011/jun/15/cameron-slaps-down-navy-chief-libya-comments) has made some effort to tell it how it is but where was Air Chief Marshal Bryant on that day? Where was our comrade in arms when the Royal Navy were saying very similar words IN PUBLIC and standing by what was being said?

Is it time for our Armed Services to develop a back bone and speak out for those they represent? Enough and no further might well be too stronger a wording, but they are paid to give advice and saying they do not have the equipment, or manpower to carry out the requests of Her Majesty's Government is something both the Army and Royal Airforce did when asked their opinions regarding the mounting of certain operations. They have done it before and not been sacked... Let them do it again whenever they feel they are correct in their assessment.

I guess we will have to wait until these folks retire before they develop an ability to say anything controversial.

[multum in parvo]

glojo

You ask " Is it time for our Armed Services to develop a back bone and speak out for those they represent?"

I think you will find that they do and regularly - in the right places. They are not Trade Union Leaders who (legitimately) engage in open political debate. They take an oath that binds them to carry out the (legitimate) orders of our democratically elected representatives.

If there is an issue, it is that we have punched way above our weight for so many years that the "can do" attitude of the Armed Forces is too often abused by our politicians.

[glojo]

You ask " Is it time for our Armed Services to develop a back bone and speak out for those they represent?"

I think you will find that they do and regularly - in the right places. They are not Trade Union Leaders who (legitimately) engage in open political debate. They take an oath that binds them to carry out the (legitimate) orders of our democratically elected representatives.

If there is an issue, it is that we have punched way above our weight for so many years that the "can do" attitude of the Armed Forces is too often abused by our politicians. I most certainly do not disagree with what you are saying however when the task is one step too far then blind obedience is what gets those at the front line killed.

Those officers AT THE VERY HIGHEST LEVEL are those that have the responsibility of saying 'NO that cannot be done!'

We at the front end can only say, "Yes sir!" and then get on with the task.

Punching above our weight is not something I can comment on.

[Chugalug2]

TheSmiter:
You do the talking Dave, many more will be doing the walking. Nice one.
Notwithstanding all the righteous outrage expressed here, I feel that TS sums up the important issue here. Cameron is the same person that the Conservatives elected to lead them and the country chose, just, to lead it. His revealing "Bon Mot" just about sums up the Realpolitik of 21st C UK. The patronising contempt from this Metro Sexual PR man will not be lost on those who serve, who have already shown with their feet their verdict on the Compact that this Government has to offer. He has no concept of the ethos of the Armed Forces. Nor in truth do many of his fellow citizens. In that regard they have little to complain of. Very soon they will have little to defend them either.

[Red Line Entry]

glojo,

I don't think either the 1SL or the CinC have said "No, that cannot be done". Probably for the very simple reason that we ARE doing it! Both have effectively said that should ELLAMY continue, then reprioritisation will be necessary.

From the politicians' perspective, we are carrying out their direction successfully on our current level of funding. The senior officers may be telling them we are carrying lots of risk, particularly against the possibility of future requirements, but their view may well be that such risk is acceptable as further defence expenditure is not in the nation's best interests.

Until the military actually fail on ops, such a view is unlikely to radically alter. The trouble is, we've being saying for years that we are about to fail - and we never do.

[VinRouge]

I wouldnt exactly call leaving Basrah the way we did as a "success".

Didnt the Conservatives promise pre-election to realistically match our operational tasking with the size of our armed forces?

[Al R]

In PMQs earlier today, did did he really say we were 'at war' with Libya/Gaddafi? I thought we were protecting.

[Red Line Entry]

Vin,

Absolutely agree with you. The trouble is, until it's a failure that the politicos can't spin their way out of, it won't worry them!

[Postman Plod]

It appears that he is proving that he can say and do absolutely anything - not enough people care or will do anything about it. The press don't care, the public don't care and the politicians don't care about anything other than re-election or their own future.

The Conservatives DID promise pre-election to reprioritise the forces. Their excuse is that its not a Conservative government, however you can bet your bottom dollar that had they won, they still would have ripped the heart out of the forces, just as EVERY OTHER PARTY WOULD HAVE DONE THE SAME! Say and do anything to get into power, and then spin and lie and blame their way out of it once in power.

They don't represent the people, but the people no longer care. They'll believe anything.

[Pontius Navigator]

A Certain well known WW2 RAF Squadron Commander declared his unit non-operational for lack of spares

There have been other, more recent, instances where the commander, contrary to political pressure, has held back until he had the supplies in place rather than throwing his troops in piecemeal.

Montgomery before Alamein was one and I think Schwarzkopf also delayed until all his pieces were in place.

Now, however, the Forces are literally thrown in willy nilly. I grant you we did not have the luxury of delay in Libya but that is why we need sufficient suitably equipped and ready forces in peacetime.

[high spirits]

The comments are out of order. However, the service chiefs are 'neck deep' in the sh&t as they also presided over this build up of debt. This stinks of hypocrisy. I'm no fan of Cameron but the chiefs will all retire shortly on very generous pension terms having ruined a once proud military.

[Chugalug2]

Al R:
Slip of the tongue..?
In PMQs earlier today, did did he really say we were 'at war' with Libya/Gaddafi? I thought we were protecting.
What ho, old bean! He did did! But you need to remember that Great War Leaders like him and Blair lead wars! Who ever sounded rufty tufty leading "protecting" for heaven's sake?

[Al R]

Hi Chuggers,

I hope all is well?

Indeed. I don't think for one minute he meant what he said to come across as it did and that he was kicking himself afterwards. Its more symptomatic of a bloke under pressure, and he does have this trait of being a bit arrogant and sniffy when his decisions are being questioned (as they increasingly are).

PN,

Schwarzkopf's methodology was interesting and protracted in that didn't he wear two hats in GW1.. overall CINC and also land boss, and didn't he also have to report to at least two bosses? Sometimes a bit difficult to know which hat to wear..

[elderlypart-timer]

Haven't posted for ages but the recent comments of the PM made me think.

Am I right in thinking that the PM's personal opinion is that post-2015 defence spending should increase?

Am I also right in thinking that on p.22 of the recent NAO report on armoured vehicles (HC 1029) it shows that under the SDSR plans defence equipment spending will be cut by an average of £2.4bn per year?

In these circs surely the military are right to talk about the need to properly fund the forces?

[ex_matelot]

I suspect this was a deliberate leak to enable Cameron to spout the now infamous soundbite. He's probably had it on the tip of his tongue for ages and was just looking for an opportunity to use it.

[elderlypart-timer]

Maybe this is very carefully planned but I wonder. Only anoracks like me and other PPruners read NAO reports - as far as I can see none of the defence correspondents have picked it up.

The official line still seems to be that no decisions have been made on funding post-2015 and yet this is contradicted by the data in the NAO. Am I barking up the wrong tree?

[Pontius Navigator]

Al R, rather more than 2 bosses IIRC. Remember he had to hold the whole coalition together never quite knowing who would play and who would not and who might even have divided loyalties.

I know for a fact that at least one of the allies, that had a photocopier (:)) was not aware that the war was starting.

[glojo]

Having just listened to the Vice Chief of the Defence staff General Sir Nicholas Houghton addressing the Parliamentary Defence Committee stating that all is well with our three services and they are all coping quite well with their commitments.

It was put to him that senior officers were claiming they were overstretched but he would not agree with that claim!!!

Instead of answering the question regarding any military short falls, he rambled on about definitions of resources, strategy, policy and aspirations. After about five minutes of classic 'Yes Prime Minister' civil servant mumbo jumbo, the chairman asked him about numbers and was he happy... 'Yes we are on course to lowering the size of our military to that required for 2024!!!'

This committee is the first port of call to get on side if we need more resources, to tell it we are coping and still making cut-backs doe not do the Air Chief Marshal any favours.

Yes a thousand times yes it can be argued I do not understand the game that big boys play, and this General may well be treating these senior MP's as fools but they were on the side of the military. They were trying to ask this person to confirm both the First Sea Lord and the Air Chief Marshal were correct in what they said... To disagree with his colleagues was perhaps not the answer that was expected!

[elderlypart-timer]

Glojo

Like you maybe I don't understand the larger game but I agree with you re the Defence Committee. It can be one of the most effective supporters of the armed forces in Westminster. So perhaps it could ask how MoD is going to achieve its desired outcome when the budget is going to be cut by such large amounts post 2015?

[ex_matelot]

Lets see what his opinion is once he's retired and his career is no longer on the line.

[elderlypart-timer]

Presumably there are various officers who are hoping to be considered for one of the top jobs in about 5 to 10 years. Do they really want to get the job just as the next wave of cuts come in??

[ex_matelot]

It's the way of the mob for senior officers to tell their superiors that everything is hunky-dory. How many times have you had a visiting dignitary / flag rank come out to where you are deployed and comment on how pleased they are that you are in good morale.
It's all well and good saying "I'd bloody tell them how it is" but - it's the NCOs who end up stamping on anybody whoever does become vocally "off message".

Remove the sycophancy (and the incentive for it) from the armed forces and maybe real opinions will get through to those who count.

[FODPlod]

Having just listened to the Vice Chief of the Defence staff General Sir Nicholas Houghton addressing the Parliamentary Defence Committee stating that all is well with our three services and they are all coping quite well with their commitments.

It was put to him that senior officers were claiming they were overstretched but he would not agree with that claim!!!

Very interesting. The current VCDS was appointed in 2009.The Strategic Defence and Security Review 2010 (http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm201011/cmselect/cmdfence/345/345we02.htm)
MEMORANDUM FROM THE MINISTRY OF DEFENCE

16. The MoD programme of work under the SDSR has six overlapping phases:
---------------------------------
— Phase 3—Force Testing comprises work to look at the effectiveness of possible future force structures against a range of scenarios. A series of Military Judgment Panels are meeting over the summer, drawing on high level operational analysis. Their conclusions will then be developed through further force structure modelling and analysis conducted by DSTL, with the subsequent conclusions subjected to structured senior review, overseen by the Vice Chief of the Defence Staff. This will generate top level military judgment on the robustness of force structure options which might emerge from the Review.

[minigundiplomat]

Like so many of the RAF's recent woes, this can be laid firmly at the door of the decision in the 90's to stop promoting leaders, and start promoting managers [or failing that, people with plenty of secondary duties and a penchant for saying 'yes'].

It is the role of the command chain to be honest with our masters, whether military or political. For too long, our 'leaders' have just told their bosses everything is rosy, and we can, we can, we can.

Open management/leadership is a cornerstone of any organisation, and the CEO needs to know when a problem is developing, not have it brushed under the carpet in order for someone to get promoted.

If you hide the problems in manpower, to secure equipment during a review of resources, you cannot then cry foul when held to your promises and told to deliver.

That said, the I won't be voting at the next election, for the first time in 27 years. 'Call me Dave' has failed to impress on a number of levels, and I could never bring myself to vote for 'the other lot'.

[Al R]

PN,

Chuck Horner's later observations about that particular country were spot on.. :ok:

[ex_matelot]

Everybody knows though that the UK military smells of fresh paint and the grass is always green.

[elderlypart-timer]

So the NAO have analysed MoD data and have stated that the SDSR's impact on the equipment programme will be as follows

2014-15 -£2.017bn
2015-16 -£1.402bn
2016-17 -£1.695bn
2017-18 -£2.308bn
2018-19 -£2.567bn
2019-20 -£2.807bn
2020-21 -£4.056bn

Has anyone in a uniform actually endorsed these specific figures, and said that we can still fulfill all our committments as set out in the SDSR even with these levels of cuts?

[ex_matelot]

Has anyone in a uniform actually endorsed these specific figures, and said that we can still fulfill all our committments as set out in the SDSR even with these levels of cuts?

Probably. Likely even let out a "career smile" as well.

[draken55]

minigundiplomat

I won't be voting at the next election, for the first time in 27 years. 'Call me Dave' has failed to impress on a number of levels, and I could never bring myself to vote for 'the other lot'.

The character played by David Niven in "A Matter of Life And Death" said just before departing his Lancaster that he was "Conservative by nature, Labour by experience". Like you I don't go for the latter Party, but once again we have ended up with a Conservative Government that talked a good job in opposition but is doing something else in power with only the promise of jam way down the line.

After 1970, 1979 and all the elections up to 1997 we should have learned by now that they are no more the Party of Defence than they are the Party of Law and Order or the ones who will take on Brussels!

[Nomorefreetime]

Anyone remember in the 90's when CAS Sir Michael Graydon spoke out about the then Def Sec Malcolm Rifkin. I recall a written apology from CAS in one of the broad sheets. Last laugh to CAS, come elections CAS is still CAS and Mr R is not even an MP. I had a chuckle to myself election night.

[sharpend]

Quote 'I won't be voting at the next election, for the first time in 27 years. 'Call me Dave' has failed to impress on a number of levels, and I could never bring myself to vote for 'the other lot'.

Well I understand what you are saying, but don't you think that by not voting, you may allow the worse of a bad bunch to get in.

Personally, though I agree with all that has been said about 'Call me Dave', at the next election I will vote for the lesser of the Evils. Maybe they are all total plonkers, but some are less plonkerish than others.

That said, however, the problem will be to discover who. As most of them are economical with the Truth, or at the every least, totally change what was promised in their respective manifestos, I probably will have no idea who is the lesser of the Evils.

But I will vote.

[minigundiplomat]

Sharpend,

I'll also be living comfortably overseas, not quite as far as from whence I came, but a start.

I see the value in the right to vote, I don't see the value in voting these days.

[mlc]

In 2010..CMD said (when leader of the opposition)..... listed military figures and civil servants who had attacked the PM Gordon Brown for defence spending shortages.

Cameron said: “Why do you think all these people, dedicated to defence of this country, are wrong?”

Perhaps someone should remind him he said this.

[Airborne Aircrew]

So... Are we saying the BNP is a viable alternative to the Conservative party?

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

There is a Conservative Party that is cutting the deficit, increasing military spending and fighting within their means....
...but it isn't led by CMD.

In fact it's so good over here that our well known recently married SAR pilot is on his way.
P'raps he's PVR'd on the sly and won't be coming back!:ok:

[glojo]

Has anyone in a uniform actually endorsed these specific figures, and said that we can still fulfill all our committments as set out in the SDSR even with these levels of cuts? Good morning old 'un :)


Sadly in my previous post which I believe is #75

Having just listened to the Vice Chief of the Defence staff General Sir Nicholas Houghton addressing the Parliamentary Defence Committee stating that all is well with our three services and they are all coping quite well with their commitments.Instead of answering the question regarding any military short falls, he rambled on about definitions of resources, strategy, policy and aspirations. After about five minutes of classic 'Yes Prime Minister' civil servant mumbo jumbo, the chairman asked him about numbers and was he happy... 'Yes we are on course to lowering the size of our military to that required for 2024!!!'I am so tempted to say that this person has accepted his ten pieces of silver but he might have 'A cunning plan!'


I'm off to bed :uhoh:

[dervish]

Last laugh to CAS, come elections CAS is still CAS and Mr R is not even an MP.


I'm no Tory but Rifkind is regarded as one of the more principled politicians of his time. I'm not sure that particular CAS will have the last laugh in the long term. Rifkind has a long memory and is eagerly waiting for Lord Philip to report on the chinook disaster where Graydon, allegedly, may not smell of roses.


But I think Cameron's idea of "fighting" is based on watching too many films. Nothing in his protected, silver-spooned background has prepared him for the real life experienced by 99% of the electorate, never mind the realities of war-fighting. Most of his Ministers are of a similar ilk. And in any case, ACMs are essentially political appointments are they not? Their job is to bridge the gap between reality and politics. That gap is now too big. If Cameron is to ignore these senior officers, then he may as well chop the Forces of 3 Star and above.

[NUFC1892]

The dates may have changed, the PM & CinC may have changed, the enemy may have changed. I would suggest the sentiment and thrust remains extant .


HEADQUARTERS FIGHTER COMMAND
ROYAL AIR FORCE,
BENTLEY PRIORY,
STANMORE,
MIDDLESEX.
SECRET

May 16, 1940

Sir,

I have the honour to refer to the very serious calls
which have recently been made upon the Home Defence Fighter'Units
in an attempt to stem the German invasion on the Continent.

2, I hope and believe that our Armies may yet be
victorious in France and Belgium, but we have to face the
possibility that they may be defeated.

3. In this case I presume that there is no-one who will
deny that England should fight on, even though the remainder of
the Continent of Europe is dominated by the Germans.

4. For this purpose it is necessary to retain some
minimum fighter strength in this country and I must request that
the Air Council will inform me what they consider this minimum
strength to be, in order that I may make my dispositions
accordingly.

5. I would remind the Air Council that the last estimate
which they made as to the force necessary to defend this country
was 52 Squadrons, and my strength has now been reduced to the
equivalent of 36 Squadrons.

6. Once a decision has been reached as to the limit on
which the Air Council and the Cabinet are prepared to stake the
existence of the country, it should be made clear to the Allied
Commanders on the Continent that not a single aeroplane from
Fighter Command beyond the limit will be sent across the Channel,
no matter how desperate the situation may become.

7. It will, of course, be remembered that the estimate
of 52 Squadrons was based on the assumption that the attack
would come from the eastwards except in so far as the defences
might be outflanked in flight. We have now to face the
possibility that attacks may come from Spain or even from the
North coast of France. The result is that our line is very
much extended at the same time as our resources are reduced.

8. I must point out that within the last few days the
equivalent of 10 Squadrons have been sent to France, that the
Hurricane Squadrons remaining in this country are seriously
depleted, and that the more Squadrons which are sent to France
the higher will be the wastage and the more insistent the
demands for reinforcements.

9. I must therefore request that as a matter of
paramount urgency the Air Ministry will consider and
decide what level of strength is to be left to the
Fighter Command for the defences of this country, and will
assure me that when this level has been reached, not one
fighter will be sent across the Channel however urgent
and insistent the appeals for help may be.

10. I believe that, if an adequate fighter force is
kept in this country, if the fleet remains in being, and
if Home Forces are suitably organised to resist invasion,
we should be able to carry on the war single handed for
some time, if not indefinitely. But, if the Home Defence
Force is drained away in desperate attempts to remedy the
situation in France, defeat in France will involve the
final, complete and irremediable defeat of this country.

I have the honour to be,
Sir,





Your obedient Servant, http://www.battleofbritain1940.net/signture.jpg





Air Chief Marshal,
Air Officer Commanding-in-Chief,
Fighter Command,Royal Air Force.

[camacho]

The Mash gives its take.

The Daily Mash - Public school ponce acts pretty ballsy (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/public-school-ponce-acts-pretty-ballsy-201106223981/)

[DITYIWAHP]

To be fair to the man, he has spent his whole career in the C party. It's no wonder he doesn't understand how most of the country functions, including members of the armed forces, because he has no experience of any of it (looking at it through a clean window doesn't count).

[st nicholas]

With All due respect to those serving we need to address a few issues.

1. When I was serving I did what the government of the day said.

2. This poor excuse of a country is bankrupt We cannot afford the £250 000 000 Libya has cost.

3. The population as a whole think we should not be in Afghanistan or Libya.

4. We are in negotiations with the Taliban in an effort to disengage from Afghanistan.

5. The reach and influence of Britain is small and getting smaller and that fact dictates the requirements of the SDSR.

6. Numerically the military might of the UK is smaller than a company like Tesco

[elderlypart-timer]

St Nick

1. When I was serving I did what the government of the day said. (Indeed but only if you have the kit and the people to do it)

2. This poor excuse of a country is bankrupt We cannot afford the £250 000 000 Libya has cost. (And we can afford to spend far more than that on the Olympics??)

3. The population as a whole think we should not be in Afghanistan or Libya. (The view of the British public has generally been that we should spend more money on defence and that we should not allow dictators to bully us or create instability. However as with almost all post-1945 conflicts the British public doesn't like seeing British service men risk their lives for a bunch of foreigners, and that includes the inhabitants of Belfast)

4. We are in negotiations with the Taliban in an effort to disengage from Afghanistan. (We've negotiated with most of the terrorist groups we've defeated - as Clausewitz says war is the continuation of politics by other means so this is nothing new)

5. The reach and influence of Britain is small and getting smaller and that fact dictates the requirements of the SDSR. (The only reason for our reach and influence to decline is if we allow the appeasers in our midst - and I certainly don't include you in that group - to gut the armed forces)

6. Numerically the military might of the UK is smaller than a company like Tesco (I don't recall anyone at Tesco taking on Walmart in hand-to-hand combat or risking their lives for their fellow wage slaves)

[pr00ne]

st nicholas,


You said: "2. This poor excuse of a country is bankrupt We cannot afford the £250 000 000 Libya has cost. (And we can afford to spend far more than that on the Olympics??)"


You clearly have no idea what the word bankrupt actually means have you?

The UK us still one of the wealthiest nations on the face of the planet. It has the third or fourth largest defence budget, is the 6th largest manufacturing economy and has financial capital investment on a truly global scale.

The Government is increasing Foreign aid, is increasing our contributions to the IMF by £9b and continues to fund such causes as the UN sponsored child immunisation campaign.

Hardly sounds bankrupt to me.

The fact that even the Tories do not want to spend more than £40b annually on defence is a fact that I suspect the majority of the population fully support. After all, we have as much actual need for defence forces as Ireland does, we have just chosen to spend an outlandish amount of money on pointless and totally futile foreign interventions.

What price all the blood and treasure sacrifice in Afghanistan when we are pulling out in 2014 and the US is going to be out by 2013 along with the French.

Is there any point fighting for that village/compound/province that we hold for a while, and then allow the Taliban back into, now totally pointless? What are the locals going to think when they know we will be gone in a few years time?

£40b per annum wasted.

[millerscourt]

pr00ne

The global assets you mention are not the Governments to sell apart from a few embassies.

The overseas aid and IMF contributions have to be borrowed hence our hugh deficit and increasing national debt.

The costly foreign interventions were made by your friends in New Labour but continued by call me Dave who wants to strut the world stage in the same way as Blair did.

Inclined to agree with youir final comment.

I suggest you stick to the Law and leave Accountancy to others.:=

[ICBM]

The argument for the UK's Defence capability must stretch beyond Afghanistan and Libya. The Arab Spring has brought a stark message to all that, regardless of whether or not you wish to help, hinder or otherwise, the World is rather unpredictable and the status quo of partnerships, alliances and 'special' relationships will not last forever. Arguing that the ~£40Bn Defence Budget may be better spent because Afghanistan (and Libya) are wasteful to country wracked with debt is tantamount to stating the obvious.

Igitur qui desiderat pacem, praeparet bellum

If we lose the only true insurance policy we have to defend our interests as a Sovereign nation then our ability to dictate those interests will be taken from us by force eventually.

[Grabbers]

BBC reporter Laura Kuenssberg tweeting that the individual Service Chiefs are to lose their places on the Defence Board. She quotes an independent report due out next week and goes on to state that CDS will stay on and the individual Service Chiefs will get more powers.

[davejb]

Elderly PT and Proone have hit the nail pretty well in my view,

to be honest - The global assets you mention are not the Governments to sell apart from a few embassies.


doesn't seem to make sense, maybe there's an edit I missed - but the UK is pretty well off, we just keep pi$$ing it against the wind, and the sooner we stop doing that the sooner we'll all realise the truth of it.

Arguably we're in Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya to protect our access to oil, primarily no doubt because despite our sure knowledge of the limitations of the fossil fuel supply we've not really put the time, effort, or research into finding an alternative. Okay, but having decided this (killing Johny Foreigner) is something we have to do, then we need to fund it for success - it's cheaper to recruit more of the lower classes and have them killed than to provide the kit needed to do the job properly to completion. We've done that for centuries....We ALWAYS work this way, frankly. It's only recently that the global comms revolution has brought the swapping of lives for oil (etc) into clearer focus.

Call Me Dave isn't really the most cynical piece of garbage on the planet, it's just that every year anyone with half a brain gets to understand realpolitik a bit better... it's all downhill from here, get used to it!

Unfortunately the death of servicemen only ever affects a small number of people - they are devastated, but the rest of the population hardly even notice. While society doesn't give a toss - and on the whole it really only stirs if something really odd happens - then making do with very little will remain the order of the day.

Should the senior ranks stand up and talk sense for once? Yes, of course they should - self respect should have told them that a long time ago however, and when they don't stand up and be counted they are pretty much following the example of centuries, not just a few decades, past.

Dave

[Peter-RB]

You must all remember our current PM was also a Prefect, sad thing is, he still has the badge.

He has never got his hands dirty through toil, always others

He has never run a Company or been self employed

It seems his old man was the forrunner of the sorts who have just tucked up all the banks,

So how come he feels he can run the Country, its quite simply no one will argue face to face with him in public, I voted for the Conservatives, but wont next time, niether could I ever vote for the others all a bunch of crap heads. so what do we do.

Winter Revolution seems the only way out of this mire to get things back to some semblance of order where we could at least defend ourselves!!

Sad Eh !!

Peter R-B :sad:

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

The Daily Mash - Public school ponce acts pretty ballsy (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/politics/politics-headlines/public-school-ponce-acts-pretty-ballsy-201106223981/)

Well, I laughed.

Duncs:ok:

[minigundiplomat]

BBC reporter Laura Kuenssberg tweeting that the individual Service Chiefs are to lose their places on the Defence Board. She quotes an independent report due out next week and goes on to state that CDS will stay on and the individual Service Chiefs will get more powers.


That was actually announced a few weeks back, and well before the current spat between the Chiefs and the PM. Only the CDS will represent the military on the Defence Board in the future.

Good or bad? Who knows, I PVR'd whilst it was still 6 months to exit.

[JFZ90]

The Daily Mash - Public school ponce acts pretty ballsy

....This has resulted in a rented Nissan Micra filled with an officer from the army, navy and air force sitting in airport car parks across the globe with the engine running at all times.

LOL

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I'm quite amused at some of the old tosh being written here, come on people just how many life skills do you really think a PM should have experienced before being qualified for the job?

Should he/she have spent some time as a refuse collector, postman, shop worker, factory worker etc to have empathy with folk in those roles?

Using some of the barking logic from in here surely he/she would have to spend time as a nurse, doctor, porter, specialist, surgeon etc to have a proper grasp of how the NHS works?

With regard to DC,s lack of military background just what do any of you think is the bare minimum spec on that score? Should he have spent some time as a soldier/airman/sailor then gone on for some tri service time at both SNCO and officer level?

Where does it stop?

Cameron got where is by being good at what he does, as do so many of us. I have never been a postman, bin man, doctor etc etc but if I have a reasonable understanding of what they do why would I assume DC does not.

Some of you really do need to stop bleating about politicians and grasp the fact that the country is well and truly in the dwang. The Tories inherited a huge cup of cold sick and there is nothing but pain on the horizon for us all.

The pay freeze hits me in the pocket to a tidy tune in lost pension and gratuity next year. Mrs SFFP recently got made redundant but stuff happens, we are simply sucking it up, cutting our cloth accordingly and getting on with it.

I have been in the RAF for many years now and have lost count of the times I heard the same old "we will never be able to cope" whinge but we always do and I bet we continue to so for many years to come.

DC was correct to tell us to STFU and get on with, it's what he's having to tell the whole country so why should we be any different.

[dervish]

DC was correct to tell us to STFU and get on with, it's what he's having to tell the whole country so why should we be any different


Seldom, I seldom disagree with what you say, but I think it an important factor here that "refuse collectors, postmen, shop workers, factory workers etc" are not being asked to place their lives on the line (except when servicing certain parts of Glasgow:E). Therefore, I think Cameron should moderate his words accordingly. A quiet word is often more effective than going on TV and publicly embarrassing someone who cannot answer back. Not only does he still have his prefect badge, but still acts the playground bully.

[NutLoose]

The picture of David Cameron he didn't want releasing.........

http://images2.wikia.nocookie.net/__cb20060423230819/uncyclopedia/images/b/bb/Head_up_ass.jpg

[A2QFI]

"Cameron got where is by being good at what he does."

Some examples would be reassuring! "U" turns seem to be skill of the moment.

[BEagle]

Conjugation of the verb 'To Dave':

I talk
You fight
He dies
We still talk
You still fight
They still die

:mad:

[Grabbers]

SFFP

Would you assert that if our Airships are asked direct questions by a specific arm of the government they should tell them what they want to hear, rather than the truth. Surely the ACM was well within his brief to answer as he did, no? The leak was likely to have come from another arm of government chasing their own agenda. I agree in that publicly bleating does no one any favours but in this case that's not what happened.

The PMs ire should be directed at his civil servants for whom the OSA is a luxury, not a necessity. The ACM deserves a full public apology.

[Fox3WheresMyBanana]

My money is on the leak being by a right wing Tory MP, or a senior MoD civil servant who can't bear the shame of what's happening any longer. Can't see how it benefits Labour - the Grauniad doesn't even have a defence section to report it.

[dallas]

Using some of the barking logic from in here surely he/she would have to spend time as a nurse, doctor, porter, specialist, surgeon etc to have a proper grasp of how the NHS works?
A wise man without the necessary experience to speak with authority might shut his gob and listen to those who are qualified. Or discuss with them in private [briefing paper] before being flippant. I was quite ambivalent to DC until I saw the clip - still living in relief of getting rid of the last corrupt to$$ers - but he's now lost points with me and I hope for our remaining military this isn't the start of a spiral.

[Jabba_TG12]

"I'm quite amused at some of the old tosh being written here, come on people just how many life skills do you really think a PM should have experienced before being qualified for the job? Should he/she have spent some time as a refuse collector, postman, shop worker, factory worker etc to have empathy with folk in those roles?"

Not necessarily those roles directly, but a damn sight more than just having taken the route of Private School/Uni/Party Intern/SpAd/PPC parachuted into safe seat/Minister/PM. The age of the professional politician, I would venture is not doing us any favours. If you're meant to be not just the leader of your political party, but also to lead the nation, to unite them, to get them on side for some difficult decisions that have to be taken in the national interest, damn right you ought to have some relevant life skills, you need to be able to engage with the electorate and relate to them, not turn them off and remain remote from them except for when you go begging for their votes every five years.

"Using some of the barking logic from in here surely he/she would have to spend time as a nurse, doctor, porter, specialist, surgeon etc to have a proper grasp of how the NHS works?"

Not necessarily for the office of PM, but I would venture that much less political interfering harm and much more clear direction and vision would be had by having ministers in place who had a solid understanding of their breifing. Thats not to say that it cant be got wrong and that the vision that say an ex-military SecDef is automatically the right one because they served in uniform (Bunter Soames or Andrew Lansley, anyone?), but I would much rather have a case like that, than the crazy notion of promoting Alan Johnson to Shadow Chancellor, when he readily admitted he didnt have the first idea as to what the hell the office was about - and this was arguably the second most important (shadow) position in government.

"With regard to DC,s lack of military background just what do any of you think is the bare minimum spec on that score? Should he have spent some time as a soldier/airman/sailor then gone on for some tri service time at both SNCO and officer level?"

This isnt about DC's lack of military background, its about putting gob into action without thinking first, in pursuit of a snappy soundbite. If he DID take a personal active interest in the outcome of SDSR, then it is plainly obvious that he has no ex military background. For a SecDef, ideally, I would say having served for a minimum of four or five years, either commissioned or non commissioned, it doesnt matter. You have to have an understanding of what you're personally responsible for, the people, the systems, of what you're going to be charged with asking them to do. Why would this be so bad? Do I take it you prefer the deference of the first world war where everyone just tugged their forelocks, thought their elders and betters and higher ups knew better and went willingly to their deaths in the face of withering machine gun fire because Haig thought that horse Cavalry would always prevail?? Sorry, those days are rightly consigned to the dark days of history.

"Cameron got where is by being good at what he does, as do so many of us. I have never been a postman, bin man, doctor etc etc but if I have a reasonable understanding of what they do why would I assume DC does not."


Fair enough.

"Some of you really do need to stop bleating about politicians and grasp the fact that the country is well and truly in the dwang."

And, with respect, you may wish to ruminate on quite how it got there and who was at the helm and what kind of life experiences they had got outside of the above mentioned professional politician path. How to get out of the dwang might be a good idea. The main thing the public need to do is cure themselves of political apathy, get off the sofas, put down the bag of Doritos and tins of Stella and get their fat arses out and vote when they are given the opportunity. Hardly surprising when a large section of the public dont give a toss about politics, that most politicians end up not giving a s**t about them.

"The Tories inherited a huge cup of cold sick and there is nothing but pain on the horizon for us all. "

Arguably so. Whoever got into power was going to inherit the mess, but its what you do to set a path out of said cup that is important. In such times, the ability to carry the nation with you, particularly the armed forces, if you are engaged in conflicts around the world where you are expecting them to pay the ultimate price, is important. Rightly or wrongly, Britain and most other nations for that matter dont take too well to being told to "do as I say or else" as a style of leadership.

"the pay freeze hits me in the pocket to a tidy tune in lost pension and gratuity next year. Mrs SFFP recently got made redundant but stuff happens, we are simply sucking it up, cutting our cloth accordingly and getting on with it. "

As are a lot of us. It does not cost anything not to be flippant when you occupy the highest position in government.


"DC was correct to tell us to STFU and get on with, it's what he's having to tell the whole country so why should we be any different. "

You could argue that, but the rest of the country, with the exception of the emergency services dont face being asked to pay the ultimate price on a reasonably regular basis. It does make a difference. We ARE different.

I have no problem with DC's thinking such a thing, even out loud, but IMVVHO this is not quite the way to win friends and influence people. He already has a notable PR problem as it is through accident of birth that he can do nothing about, which those with chips on their shoulders and their own political agendas will, and often do, exploit. Making a rod for your own back when you've already got a difficult enough job as it is is daft.

[spud]

It's not too much to expect that a PM with no military experience whatsoever should recognise the importance of appointing a defence secretary who has.

[Finningley Boy]

The UK us still one of the wealthiest nations on the face of the planet. It has the third or fourth largest defence budget, is the 6th largest manufacturing economy and has financial capital investment on a truly global scale.



If this is true, and I certainly don't doubt it, would you say that we have the third or fourth largest Armed Forces in the world?

I certainly don't think we have quite the third or fourth largest Air Force.

Very far from it.

Doubtless Mr pr00ne you can explain all.

FB:)

[Postman Plod]

Its not so much about appointing a defence secretary who has experience of defence (Liam Fox does have at least a little) - its got everything to do with listening to those with the experience, rather than publically suggesting that you know better, in the face of all the evidence!

Liam Fox appears to have been pushed very much to the back for some of his previous criticism of policy, as it seems have the service heads. So if those supposidly in senior defence appointments aren't being listened to, then who is? Who will be on the defence board?

[Jabba_TG12]

FB:

Like a lot of the Nu-Labia lot, Pr00ne chooses his stats carefully and selectively. Yes, 40Bn is the 4th largest defence budget in the world in absolute financial terms. If you express it as a proportion of GDP though (comes in about 1.7%, below the NATO mandated minimum of 2% IIRC) if you express it compared to the proportion of GDP of other nations, particularly the emerging nations and what it pays for, the value of sterling related to the currencies of the other nations you're comparing it to, what it gives them, what the costs are, then the picture becomes a bit different.

What you spend, compared to what you get, to what capability it gives you are different things. If we are spending that much but not getting as much for our money as the US, China, India, whoever, then it means we are either wasting too much, paying too much, salaries/allowances too high, defence inflation, etc etc etc and that others are getting it cheaper in larger volumes, if larger volumes is what is needed. Those are all things that should possibly be occupying DC's mind more when it comes to aping his hero Blair on the world stage rather than just thinking intervention anywhere anytime is always a done deal and that the forces will always cope no matter how thin they may be spread, no matter how resources and assets may be thinned out.

Whilst the world has changed a lot in the last 80 years, I find it staggering that the lessons of the 1920's and 30's seem to have been brushed aside and consigned to the bin of ignorance with such ease and in such haste. If the reductions are deliberate, to the point where we should be non-interventionist on the global stage, thats fine, but going in the direction we are doing yet keeping 4 SSBN's with a CASD policy seems dreadfully unbalanced. Not to mention that there may well be events in the future that we are going to have to be compelled to respond to that we are not going to have the means to respond to. Giving over West Midlands car factories to make bombs, bullets and Spitfires as per WW2 and just about getting to the point where we had the numbers and the personnel to be able to achieve what we did is a feat I dont think we're going to be able to repeat, if ever. Lets just hope that such a thing never occurs in the future, eh? But I'd sincerely hope that whoever does our strategic planning and vision for the next 30 years or so relies on a lot more than just "hope".

Lies, damned lies and statistics, as the old saying goes.

[Airborne Aircrew]

The pay freeze hits me in the pocket to a tidy tune in lost pension and gratuity next year. Mrs SFFP recently got made redundant but stuff happens, we are simply sucking it up, cutting our cloth accordingly and getting on with it.

Golly... You've been telling us all for years how well off you are and how you've got it made... Don't worry, I'm sure you can get a job to supplement that pension... :\

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

DC is hooped whatever he does with this matter, if he gives credence to the "we will never manage" suggestion what message does that send to Libya and if he chooses to react as he has then it's ding ding all aboard the outrage bus.

I have had more than enough bollockings in my day to fully understand that it's rarely about punishing the individual, it's almost always about getting the message out as to where the line in the sand is drawn.

I doubt there were many junior and senior folk who thought once we became involved in Libya how on earth would we manage with everything else were are involved in at the moment but it seems we are coping and I doubt that's going to change as it's simply what we do.

Golly... You've been telling us all for years how well off you are and how you've got it made... Don't worry, I'm sure you can get a job to supplement that pension... :\

The beauty of not cutting and running the first time things get a bit scary is that the long term rewards, whilst having taken a hit recently are still more than sufficient. Get a job, I think not but my recently renewed second passport is definitely going to come in handy :p

[Airborne Aircrew]

The beauty of not cutting and running the first time things get a bit scary is that the long term rewards

Don't worry about me... I'm far, far better off now than I would have been had I stayed in... Without all the grief and BS too... and I filled up my passport... :ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

I am genuinely pleased for you, I really am.

I guess the main difference between us is I will have 38 and a half years of wonderful memories to look back on whilst, based on the frequency of your visits to this Military site you will go to your maker always wondering what might have been :ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

SFFP will you continue to post once you are out? Or will you get your life back and not have to rely on pprune to keep you going?

Military Aircrew A forum for the professionals who fly the non-civilian hardware, and the backroom boys and girls without whom nothing would leave the ground. Army, Navy and Airforces of the World, all equally welcome here.

As of Nov next year I will not satisfy the rule for contributing in this forum so will not continue to do so :ok:

[Seldomfitforpurpose]

Depending on where we are on the planet and the availability of the net I genuinely don't know if I would peek or not, but I do know I won't be posting :ok:

[Airborne Aircrew]

SFFP:

The real difference between us is that I got what I needed from the military in 10 years and moved on to better things... I come back because, as you will find, the people out here are... err... "different"... You will find that you will miss the people but most probably not the job. If polled, I'll guarantee you that a significant majority of those who have left would concur. Maybe you are different... But that makes you odd, not me...;)

[haltonapp]

There was a very well written article in today's Times by Mathew Parris, about senior officers who have more interest in preserving their service than the defense needs of the nation. They should stay out of politics!

[ExRAFRadar]

I read that piece. What is your opinion on the assertion that our Senior Staff are no good at actually running a war/conflict/police action ?

[WE Branch Fanatic]

What did it say - for the benefit of non Times readers/subscribers?

[Biggus]

WEBF - see post 19 on the Akrotiri thread for the Mathew Parris article.....

[Marham69]

BBC News/Website Monday 27th June.....

"....For the members of 101 Squadron, while their aircraft may be getting on, there is still no sign of mission fatigue - at least not yet. The Navigator and detachment commander, Cat, says: 'I love the job I'm doing and I love the aircraft.'

She says it is rewarding to do a mission they been trained to do.
By the time she has finished punching the numbers into her pink calculator to work out how much fuel they can give away while making sure they have enough to return back to base."

I can think of more than a few Nav Plotters from the original Marham Valiant/Victor K Mk 1 days.... originators and pioneers of many AAR directional techniques.... whose growlometer reading will be off scale if they catch sight of this pish drivel.

[airpolice]

Marham69 wrote: pish

What a wonderfully apt Weegie word that is.

For all the undoubted magnificence associated with the English Language, there are times, now and then, when the use of "appropriate" words fails to convey the deepest sense of the moment.

I look forward to a better description of this article, but I suspect that none will be forthcoming.

[wiggy]

I come back because, as you will find, the people out here are... err... "different"... You will find that you will miss the people but most probably not the job. If polled, I'll guarantee you that a significant majority of those who have left would concur.

Yep, that's got my vote.

[Lima Juliet]

Mr Cameron/Dr Fox

You spoke, I'm off! - LJ

[NutLoose]

One found this quite amusing, the link on Dr Fox's website that links you to the MOD site for "ask a Minister"

Ministry of Defence | Contact us | Ask a Minister (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/ContactUs/AskAMinister.htm)


It Says and I quote


You Are Leaving the Liam Fox's Website

Liam Fox is neither responsible for, nor necessarily endorses the content of the website to which you are going.
If you are not redirected automatically within a few seconds please click here

[Modern Elmo]

Cameron got where is by being good at what he does ...

A self made man, up from a Dickensian childhood ...

[cazatou]

Marham 69

You do seem to have a grievance that the Modern RAF has Female Aircrew - as shown by your posts on a previous thread regarding 32 Sqn.

May I suggest that you detail exactly what medals you earned during your time in the "Near East Strike Force" whilst a navigator on 32 Sqn Canberras- then we can compare them with the medals that the young Men and Women of today have earned on Active Service in the last few years.

[jindabyne]

Oh no! Not another medal-waving debate :ugh:

[Whenurhappy]

Oh goodie! A medal fest!

I have some aready-prepared and offensive remarks I can post about crimson-faced old buffers in their blazers down at the Legion....


Jindabyne...only joking:p

PS - got another one in the post last week, too. Another round one, sadly.

[cazatou]

Jindy

The "Gentleman" concerned is on record as stating that 32 Sqn becoming "The Royal Sqn" is (quote) "An Abomination".

He maintains that the current role of the Squadron "denigrates" the history of the Squadron as it has no role on Active service.

[Finningley Boy]

May I suggest that you detail exactly what medals you earned during your time in the "Near East Strike Force" whilst a navigator on 32 Sqn Canberras- then we can compare them with the medals that the young Men and Women of today have earned on Active Service in the last few years

Medals are not a good marker for an individual's resolve. If that were so we wouldn't be so reliant on conflicts to provide the opportunity to award them. It was once envisaged that when the last of senior officers who served in World War II and the Korean Conflict retired, we'd see a none stop line of senior officers with no rows of medals. Perhaps because the defence posture of the late 1980s was expected to last.

Instead we have no end of small unwinable conflicts selected by politicians like Blair and Cameron who absurdly dismantle the frontline capability and rent everything they're prepared to allow. Its quite absurd to cut the frontline while wilfully engaging in conflicts with countries that Blair and Cameron mistakenly imagine to be a push over. All home in time for tea and medals, but it hasn't worked that way.

I know which generation of servicemen and women were better served.

FB:)

[Marham69]

For Friend Cazatou....

If you wish to deliberately provoke a barney then take your adolescent goading elsewhere.

[Monty77]

This is supposed to be a debate about the Prime Minister's comment, 'You do the fighting, I'll do the talking.'

As we've all gone massively off topic, I don't mind sharing with you a memory of red-faced old buffers in blazers to whom Whenurhappy has referred.

Northern Ireland, Aldergrove to be precise. 1993. Once a year the Bomber Association would have a lunch at the Mess in Aldergrove. A large number of small, respectful, white-haired, blazer-wearing old chaps would turn up for lunch. Ulstermen to a man. Many 'How are you?'s were exchanged. They were all bomber mates from the war. They told stories that made us realize that humping and dumping in helicopters was not exactly steely. They were like a bunch of excited 70 year old school kids, devouring the black and white pictures of NI-based Sunderlands on the corridors in the Mess. Once we'd all got chatting, we all realized that these blokes were all serious veterans of the bomber campaign. Hilariously, there was one fighter pilot amongst them, at whom much banter was directed on account of the fact he lacked 'people skills' hence the single seat. It was a pleasure to talk to them. While we were desperate for their war stories (and by golly they had a few), they were always reticent and modest about what they had done.

They are probably all dead now. But I shall never forget the sight of those old guys, delighted to be at the bar again, talking to 20-somethings about flying and ****.

As the Frogs say, plus ca change.

[SAMXXV]

Perhaps if you were a USAF Airman you would have 10 medal ribbons. If you were a USAF/Marine senior officer you would have at least 30 ribbons. The yanks hand out medals like wedding confetti.

My Grandfather managed just one Military Cross & a Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM) during WW1. My father (Master Pilot with more than 10,000 hours on Lancasters, Shakletons etc.) got just a LSGC.

I got bugger all until I went to Bosnia after I left HM's employment after 16 years. I was employed by the FO, shot at, blown up & abused by both Bosnian Muslims & Serb/Croats. They gave me a (very impressive) silver medal set - but alas, no pension....

[Willard Whyte]

I think the Americans AND the Brits have got it wrong when it comes to dishing out gongs. There is such a thing as a happy medium.

[davejb]

There is such a thing as a happy medium.

Yes indeedy, and here he is....

The Daily Mash - Stars (http://www.thedailymash.co.uk/category/horoscopes/)

Different medal culture, one is more inclined to award medals for passing through places and doing stuff - I always used to think "who on Earth would want a unit citation?" Figuring it's a bit like being given a certificate for having the lowest STD rate in theatre or something of equal merit - but to the people concerned it's much more of a big deal, everything is relative, and to be honest I'm not sure that having a chestful of 'best origami sculpture' awards isn't likely to imbue a feeling of pride in people.... would the traditional bag of ***** airman perhaps not be a bit more tidy and presentable (I was that man) given the incentive?

It's when we start to associate medals with bravery that it all goes wrong - like the man said, 'sadly only a round one'.

[Grabbers]

Look what you get in next years Christmas crackers: LargeImageTemplate (http://www.mod.uk/DefenceInternet/Templates/LargeImageTemplate.aspx?img=/NR/rdonlyres/28DAEC09-7B0A-4213-BC9E-864859C342D8/0/JubileeMedal.jpg&alt=The%20Queen's%20Diamond%20Jubilee%20Medal)

[airpolice]

We used to say that in the US armed forces, even the civvy cleaners had stripes and medals.

[cazatou]

Marham 69

Its just that I am quite proud of of the 5023 days I served as a VIP Pilot on 32 Squadron.

[Jabba_TG12]

"My Grandfather managed just one Military Cross & a Distinguished Conduct Medal (DCM) during WW1."


"Just"???? :eek:

[SAMXXV]

Fraid not. He served during the Boer War as a Corporal in the 5th Dragoon Guards. He got 6 further medals, one of them with 5 (Five) bars. Hey Ho...

Nobody gives a poo nowadays. But I do.

He then finished his army career as an instructor at the Cavalry School at Netheravon, Wilts until he retired July 1922 (RSM Harry Croft, MC, DCM, Vth Dragoon Guards).

[Halton Brat]

Doris Stokes was always quite jolly; indeed, she could be described as a 'happy Medium'.........

HB

[NutLoose]

I got a GSM for NI lol, but that was when having a medal in the RAF was rare, pain in the butt it was, because after leaving Odious every best blue inspection for any parades afterwards they would put you on it, simply to add a bit of shiney tin to the ranks... Often felt embarassed (and still do) to have it, as the Army worked bloody hard in dangerous situations to get theirs..

[jindabyne]

Often felt embarassed (and still do)

Pity, because you shouldn't.

[Dan Gerous]

Nutloose, bad luck with the blues inspection. I don't know what uniform the RAF have now, but back in the 70/80's we could wear either a wooly pully, or the horrible No.2 jacket. After the little incident in 82, at Kinloss there was a sudden outbreak of wearing the No.2. jacket, as it had the medal ribbon on it. As you say back in those days, a medal was a rare thing in the RAF, and thus almost certainly got you volunteered for AOC's, and any other parade on the go. I was never into the parade thing, so kept a low profile on that front. Due to a fair bit of moving about, I never got to wear my No.1.'s that often, and it wasn't until 3 months before I left the RAF in 1985, that I had my No. 1's inspected, and my WO was surprised that I had a medal. The only time I nearly got caught was in 1982. Because of the war, Kinloss's AOC's parade was put back, and two weeks after that the station was to receive the Wilkinson Sword, or the other way about. My WO decided that myself and my mate had avoided parades for to long and we were doing one each. I had some leave which covered the first parade, so I said I'd do the second one. The CO at Kinloss was so impressed with how the first parade went, that all the same personnel were to do the second one. Bullet dodged on that one.