View Full Version : European Cockpit Association communication
16th Jun 2011, 20:41
In a statement released yesterday, the European Cockpit Association (ECA), which represents 38,650 pilots called its members to a rally for protest the Council of Ministers of the EU so that future regulations on working time crews have to First goal of flight safety.
16th Jun 2011, 23:12
Its time to react...
17th Jun 2011, 09:03
I would even say that having this "just cause" to unite pilots in a fight against the politicians is just great.
If we really unite, and lobby, and win, it will the be the FIRST victory. We need such first victory because we need more victories.
Mr Angry from Purley
17th Jun 2011, 18:08
Interesting comment "strongly support science based rules"
The Company I work for is currently undertaking a scientific study which amongst others is looking at max FDP overnight, adapting to local time, effects of 2-3 man crew, pre flight commuting, effects of consecutive nights and Pilot interest is NFI
17th Jun 2011, 21:15
What to do guys if in my company someboady planing more then limitation.
We spoke to the caa but no response.
What is the next step.
18th Jun 2011, 07:56
and Pilot interest is NFI
IS this your opinion, the opinion of the scientists that your company is employing or the opinion of your Flt Ops management. Pilots are not anti change if that change is for the good of all. I would back anything that would improve producivity without compromising safety but anyhting that affects flight safety has to have a negative effect on all parties involved in aviation. Longer working times and shorter rest periods will most definitely increase fatigue and have a negative affect on Flight safety. How can you argue for an increase in FDP,s and a decrease in rest periods when the current rules do not do enough to prevent fatigue. If the scientists can come up with a scheme that can manage fatigue, lets hope the managers have the guts to follow their advice.
20th Jun 2011, 03:21
'IS this your opinion, the opinion of the scientists that your company is employing or the opinion of your Flt Ops management. Pilots are not anti change if that change is for the good of all. I would back anything that would improve producivity without compromising safety but anyhting that affects flight safety has to have a negative effect on all parties involved in aviation. Longer working times and shorter rest periods will most definitely increase fatigue and have a negative affect on Flight safety. How can you argue for an increase in FDP,s and a decrease in rest periods when the current rules do not do enough to prevent fatigue. If the scientists can come up with a scheme that can manage fatigue, lets hope the managers have the guts to follow their advice.'
Just a couple of points if I may?
You seem to not know Mr. A. If you did, you would know he is one of, if not the best in his field and has made a very good reputation for himself within the Aircrew world, and the Airline industry for being nothing less than balanced and fair, often going in to fight their corner, with much success.
The study Mr A talks of is not to extend duty and reduce rest, it is a study of rest and integration to the (night) working week. Whilst a happy medium is the target. Yes night 1 and 2 may reduce, 3 and for may extend, that's just my take.
Still I see night after night Pilots elect not to go with FRMS, electing to stay at home on a working day, breach the FRMS trial, negating feedback that will help it work. These guys, (I Know of two who have explained the call to stay at home) scupper the whole plan.
Likewise, I see very frequently, Pilots who have driven for 3-5 hours to get to work and either get on with the job or quote FRMS after a 5 hour drive and a 2 hour SBY is added.........................
The scientific argument is lost in Europe, because those it is there to protect, will not, or cannot accept it as protecting them, because it suits them.
My apologies to all who know me, and play the game. I thank you for all your efforts.
20th Jun 2011, 16:16
Yes I do know who he is which why I was suprised to see the comment Pilot interest is NFI, which I took to mean Not f%$%g important, when its the pilots that are ones at the coal face. If you are now suggesting that the term was meant to indicate that there was a lack of interest from the pilots then it puts a different bent on his post. Sorry but as much as I would like to influence the work force into playing the game, the level of cynism and mistrust of management is too deep. Rather than viewing the FRMS as tool to help most see it as a stick to be beaten with.
21st Jun 2011, 04:14
All I can say is that giving Airlines is ability to control fatigue management systems is akin to giving BP the control of safety regulation for drilling operations in the gulf of Mexico!
It will end in diaster!
21st Jun 2011, 22:01
CAA's have a dual role which is a proven conflict of interest. They have to police the operational & safety culture of the airlines AND they have to monitor the commercial viability of the airlines; AND their major source of income is those same airlines. I've always had the opinion that FTL's have expanded in all directions, and grown flexible warts, to match the performance of the aircraft over the years and remain as 2 crew. The only reason that has happened is because the airlines have lobbied for it. When B707 flew 10hrs that was enough duty time. Now with >15hr a/c, or 6hr out & return holiday flights, the only way they are commercially viable is for 2 crew to perform them. FTL's had to be elastic. I've been the victim of airline lobbying the local CAA (in 3 different countries) to grant dispensations for the financial health of the company. No crew stop overs, but out & backs; or extended FTL's to make long single sector 2 crew ops. Every time it was granted with no consultation with the crews. Only the legacy carriers with unions were exempt. They put on heavy crews with proper rest facilities. I find it a scandal that it is a union who insists on rest areas and not the CAA's. I also find it a scandal that the national pilots' union does not make such provision an industry standard, rather than company specific. No national union I know has had the industry as a whole at heart, other than perhaps on some technical matters. Shame on them all, CAA's as well.
22nd Jun 2011, 11:59
Driver's Hours - Rules & Exemptions (http://www.hgvcity.com/Regulations/Drivers_Hours2.htm)
22nd Jun 2011, 23:06
Domestic drivers hours rules apply to the drivers' of Vehicles on journeys within the United Kingdom which are exempt from the EC rules.
The rules do not apply to drivers who always drive off the public road (i.e. driving in connection with road improvements or road maintenance, quarrying or other construction work or civil engineering works)
.A driver who drives for less than 4 hours in any day in any fixed week (24:00 hrs Sunday to 24:00 hrs Sunday) does not have to observe the drivers hours requirement during that week.
Daily Driving Limit - Domestic A driver must not drive for more than 10 hours in a day. The daily driving limit applies to time spent at the wheel actually driving on a public road. Off-road driving counts as duty time.
Daily Duty Limit - Domestic A driver must not be on duty for more that 11 hours on any working day. A driver is exempt from the daily duty limit on any working day when he does not drive.
The domestic rules are relaxed for events needing immediate action to avoid danger to life of health; serious interruption of essential public services (gas, water, electricity, or drainage); or of telecommunications and postal services; or in the use of roads, railways, ports, airports; or serious damage to property. In these cases the driving and duty limits are suspended for the duration of the emergency.