Dambusters movie; they are changing the dog's name

[wub]

BBC News - Dam Busters dog renamed for movie remake (http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-lincolnshire-13727908)

[Evanelpus]

Hasn't this been discussed on here before, mebee more than once?

[RookiePilot]

It's political correctness gone mad! heh heh heh

[Load Toad]

The name of the dog isn't a big deal compared to the lives lost in the training and execution of the extraordinary operation is it?

[Abbey Road]

Hasn't this been discussed on here before, mebee more than once? Sure has! I recall this subject here from several years ago. Peter Jackson has been tinkering with this project for a long time. He wants to recreate a lot of it using CGI, so I guess the longer he waits, the better and more affordable some of that technology becomes.

Interestingly, I see that the name 'Digger' is being suggested. I recall that 'Trigger' was being bandied about a few years back. Revisionist history, eh? I can understand why 'African-American' wouldn't work .......

[langleybaston]

I favour Nogger used alternatively with Digger.

Or there is Niggle, Nagger, Knicker ..........

Come to think of it, what about Knackers?

[Capetonian]

Trying to change history is pointless, inappropriate, and wrong for so many reasons.

Historically, black people in South Africa were called Kaffirs, in the US Niggers, and so on. It's history, it may have been wrong, but get over it.

[langleybaston]

Snigger? Laughable subject

[Duncan D'Sorderlee]

Perhaps they should call it 'Nimrod' - a word beginning with 'N' that should not be used in polite conversation.

Duncs:ok:

[Dengue_Dude]

Pathetic.

However, if you wish to sell your film in the US . . . in the real world.

Remember it was the Americans that recovered the U-boat's code books and Enigma machine . . .

[Tankertrashnav]

More seriously, the raid will now be carried out by a squadron of B17s (the 617th?), led by Tom Cruise, with Will Smith playing one of the other captains, and Morgan Freeman taking the Barnes Wallis role. "Trigger" will no longer be a black lab, but one of those loveable mutts from the Walt Disney cute dog farm.

You don't think so? Well as Dengue Dude pointed out, they made U257 - gotta sell that film in the US to make it pay.

[4mastacker]

Remember it was the Americans that recovered the U-boat's code books and Enigma machine . . . ......and won the Battle of Britain after John Wayne had fought the Japanese to a standstill at Iwo Jima all by himself and then raced halfway round the world to be the first ashore on D-Day.

[Foghorn Leghorn]

Why change Nigger's name when the word is used in many movies in far more derogatory terms these days?

[Halton Brat]

In those halycon inter-war years (great depression/mass unemployment/soup kitchens etc) the use of the N word was part of common parlance in the UK, used primarily to describe a dark colour in clothing & other items of apparel. Indeed, a popular shoe polish of the day was thus labeled. It is not surprising, therefore, that Wg Cdr Gibson should have had a dog so named. The vast majority of the UK population had never even seen a coloured person in that era, unless they lived in a maritime port city. The arrival of the first coloured US troops during the D-Day build up came as a shock to many.

Enough of this PC tosh; does anybody know when I'm going to get to see this movie? Is it true that Mr Jackson is financing the airworthy restoration of Lincolnshire's taxi-only Lancaster?

I was passing through Steenbergen in Holland last year, & visited the grave of Gibson & his Nav (ashamed to say I can't recall his name). Their graves are in a civil cemetery in the town, and are beautifully tended; almost a shrine, in fact.

HB

[davejb]

It's all rather amusing, I think - Stephen Fry (poor dear) says it's pretty well unthinkable to call the dog Nigger in these enlightened times, whilst the word motherf****r appears to be more popular in films and TV with every passing moment...along with lots of other words that regularly get an outing. What do they think will happen if the name is left intact? Do they really believe the film will bomb (oops), as the entire black (is that the in word?) population of the USA boycott the film?

By the way, you can't change it to trigger - I may be mistaken (but, like all old farts, I refuse to admit it) but weren't the codewords for 'bomb dropped, the rotten damn is still there' and 'bomb gone, gerry's gone paddling' trigger and nigger? Oops...can I say that on here? Might make the film a bit difficult to follow if the same codeword means opposite things.

Incidentally, does anyone else listen to the morse in fillms and make 'grrr' noises when the morse is actually three of four random letters (if that) and the hero 'reads' about 5 lines of script?

...No, thought not, I'll get me coat...

[The late XV105]

(ashamed to say I can't recall his name)

Sq Ldr Jim Warwick


Photo of the graves (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:RAFgravenSteenbergen.jpg)

[squeaker]

There is a perfectly simple solution to all this.
Who are the only people allowed to use the N word these days? Rappers!

The role of Wg Cdr Guy Gibson VC will be played by 50 Cent...

[Halton Brat]

XV105, thank you for that. May they both RIP.

HB

[good spark]

i think i`ll go and buy myself a black lab and call it n***** or will that be illegal?


gs

[The Old Fat One]

Aside from the debate about the dog's name, which is frankly trivial, I will be delighted if this film gets made and even more so if it does justice to an event which is about as epic in real life as it will appear on the big screen (again).

Fingers crossed and I will await to see it before passing judgement.

PS And take it easy on Stephen Fry, he is a genius who (along with others) brought us the magic of Blackadder.

BAAAHHHHH

[stuckgear]

I recall that 'Trigger' was being bandied about


the dog will need his own broom then.

[MG]

I heard Stephen Fry speak about this new film last year at a Dambusters Dinner. He is truly impassioned and hugely knowledgeable on the subject. I'm quite sure that it's in as safe a pair of hands as possible.

[DC10RealMan]

A few months ago I was being shown around RAF Scampton by a member of the local RAF historical society when the remake of "The Dambusters" came up in conversation as I expressed my reservations as to whether any remake would be as good as the original 1950s film.
The locals are all for the remake as a lot of the filming will be done at RAF Scampton and therefore the film company will spend a substantial amount of money restoring the original locations including the 617 Squadron hanger and Gibson's office.
They also add that having met Steven Fry and Peter Jackson they (the historical society) were very impressed by their intention to pay tribute to all the personnel involved and to historical accuracy.

[Roadster280]

Maybe they'll use the original W/T phrases, but use a different name orally. That'd be about as fair a compromise as possible. Old duffers that it matters to can take the morse, the average Joe can hear whatever they want ..--..

[cazatou]

I can remember 50+ years ago reading in the UK Press the outrage (after the American Premiere of the Dambusters Movie) when Richard Todd walked out of the showing because the American Distributors had added footage of B 17's taking part in the Operation.

That said, we must not forget that at least one Pilot on the Raid WAS a United States Citizen who had volunteered to fight with the RAF.

[sitigeltfel]

N****r is to become Digger!!!!

Is this the PC way of calling a spade a spade?

[Tallsar]

Trigger..Digger...blah blah Pah!

Blackie gets my vote...a very popular dogs name...keeps the sentiment
too!:-)

......incoming :hmm:

[tonker]

They could use a golden retriever and call it Wigger;)

[STANDTO]

What a load of bl**dy nonsense.

The dog was named Nigger, probably affectionately, and 'cos he was black, in a different age. It is part of history, and some very important history at that.

I wonder how much of the outcry is coming from black people?

[jbloggs]

Gosh,
Here's hoping, in todays 'enlightened' PC conscious society, that they dont try to do a re-make of that great old movie "Fanny by Gaslight......":eek:

[Wander00]

So what will they use instead of "N1gger" as the code word for successful breaching of the Moehne Dam?

[Halton Brat]

I am also anxious lest they re-release the old Maurice Chevalier record, 'Thank heavens for little girls'............

HB

[Skeleton]

There was a dog called NIGGER. Perfectly acceptable at the time. It is not nowadays.

Should they change the dogs name? Course not.

Get over it and move on. Nice troll by the way.

[cazatou]

Halton Brat

Impossible - such an action could be seen as homophobic!!!

[TheWizard]

Just to lighten the mood a little
YouTube - ‪Dambusters‬‏

Some of the comments underneath are priceless!

[Max Angle]

The dog's name is even removed from the soundtrack of the original movie when its shown on British TV nowadays so there was never much chance of it being used in a remake.

[The Old Fat One]

All movies distort history...it is what makes them entertaining.

I think (can't be a***ed to check) that the dog died at a different stage of events than that depicted in the existing movie. Furthermore, its passing was celebrated by the mess staff as Gibson used to let it piss all over the place. I don't recall seing that in the original either.

Move on... and lets hope that this thing gets made and it does justice to the skill, courage and ingenuity of the crews and supporting boffins, engineers et al.

[MG]

Max Angle: No it's not, it was on the other week, completely intact.

[Algy]

The plot thickens... (http://www.flightglobal.com/blogs/unusual-attitude/2008/10/dambusters_remake_theyre_going.html)

[kiwibrit]

Digger it is (http://www.thisislincolnshire.co.uk/Guy-Gibson-s-dog-dropped-Dam-Busters-remake/story-12746448-detail/story.html)

[jindabyne]

Many of us will recall 'Black' Robertson, an Air Marshal of renown :cool:. Maybe we should call him 'Whitey' to redress the PC balance?

[500N]

So if they make a remake of the dropping of the bombs on Japan,
are they going to change the name of Tibbet's plane from "Enola Gay"
to "Enola Bay" even though the reason for it being "Gay" has nothing
to do with batting for the other side ?

God help this world with it's PC focus.


I think a heap more would exist like that as well.

.

.

[MG]

500N, you've missed the point. The Enola Gay will now be painted beautiful rainbow colours and the bombardier and rear gunner will be having a relationship, thus earning the name of the aircraft.

[hum]

shoulda called him 'still' :}

[500N]

"500N, you've missed the point. The Enola Gay will now be painted beautiful rainbow colours and the bombardier and rear gunner will be having a relationship, thus earning the name of the aircraft."


So that means the aircraft got two bangs from the one trip ?:O


MG
My apologise, I stand corrected.
Pandering to the minority to make sure they are not left out.
You are obviously much more in tune with the way these things work :O

[Tankertrashnav]

Like a lot of people I have mixed feelings about Gibson. Undoubtedly he was a brilliant pilot who led one of the most audacious and skilful operations of the war. On the other hand there is a strong body of opinion from those who were around at the time that he was an arrogant, short-arsed little martinet (remind you of any other WW2 RAF heroes btw?). These people often come to the fore in times of war, and we can be admire and be grateful to them, without actually liking them.

That said, there should be no difficulty finding an unpleasant, arrogant sod to play him - the film world is awash with them.

[MG]

500N, I've done the course!

[500N]

"Like a lot of people I have mixed feelings about Gibson. Undoubtedly he was a brilliant pilot who led one of the most audacious and skilful operations of the war. On the other hand there is a strong body of opinion from those who were around at the time that he was an arrogant, short-arsed little martinet (remind you of any other WW2 RAF heroes btw?). These people often come to the fore in times of war, and we can be admire and be grateful to them, without actually liking them."

Tanker
Yes, and in times of war, it is people like this that do come to the fore and get the mission completed, which is after all the name of the game. That is, unless we pander to every left wing hippy / gay rights et al who thinks it is all a popularity contest.


Thank god we had more than a few of them around that time is all I can say.

MG
LOL - Never wanted to do it, would probably do me some good but I am afraid never been one to pander to that sort of thinking.

.

[tarantonight]

'Tis a difficult one. I wonder how many authors of the 'Get over it' type posts above are Black. Not one I will guess.................

We can't change history and should not apologise for what our forefathers did or said 50+ years ago and more, but I tend to agree with Mr Fry. Why not re - write that part of the script? Simples. The Dams still got busted.

Having said that, I understand a lot of these new fangled moving pictures are awfully aggressive, full of Mofo's and everything.

Keep it gangsta.

TN:\

[Dengue_Dude]

N****r is to become Digger!!!!

Is this the PC way of calling a spade a spade?

Now I wish I'D thought of that!

Very witty, good one

It's so nice to see how this ridiculous PC crap has been viewed - or it proves we're just a bunch of old farts.

[Roadster280]

A (duration-only) Wing Commander at the age of 24. Was given the job of making Barnes Wallis's brainchild come to fruition. An arrogant little fu*k he may have been, but as far as I'm concerned, he's a bona fide war hero.

Victoria Crosses are not, and never have been, dished out with the cornflakes.

He'll do for me, and it severely pains me that things can't be depicted as they occurred. There's still a couple of Lancasters about. Scampton's still substantially the same, and black Labradors won't be hard to come by. Might have an issue finding enough airmen to be extras though :E

I accept that things can't be as they should be, but that doesn't make it right.

[Tankertrashnav]

That is, unless we pander to every left wing hippy / gay rights et al who thinks it is all a popularity contest.



You missed out "fluffy" ;). I think I made the point that you are making, however, but I still maintain that it is possible to admire and dislike someone at the same time.

Incidentally another famous Lancaster VC, and Gibson's successor on 617, Leonard Cheshire, was as temperamentally different to Gibson as you can imagine, yet displayed courage and leadership in equal measure, achieving the almost unheard of tally of 102 operations. Yet it is as much for his post war humanitarian works, including setting up the Leonard Cheshire foundation, as his wartime exploits, that he is now remembered.

[flighthappens]

Undoubtedly he was a brilliant pilot who led one of the most audacious and skilful operations of the war. On the other hand there is a strong body of opinion from those who were around at the time that he was an arrogant, short-arsed little martinet

Maybe that's why he was picked to be a WGCDR at 24 and to lead a Squadron on one of the most daring operations of the war???:ugh: At least he knew how to get the job done....:D and had the skills to pay the bills to boot...

[parabellum]

Bit of a side track, but,

and are beautifully tended; almost a shrine, in fact.


Dutch school children are taught, (and it becomes a matter of great pride to them), to tend the graves of allied servicemen in Holland.

[500N]

Tanker
"however, but I still maintain that it is possible to admire and dislike someone at the same time."

I Agree.

"Victoria Crosses are not, and never have been, dished out with the cornflakes."
I think the lot says it better.
VC, DSO & Bar, DFC & Bar
All those naysayers of Gibson, it would be interesting to know which one's over the years had gone through what he had gone through and been able to say "been there, done that" to be able to criticiZe him. Enough said.


As flighthappens said, "he got the job done".
.

[jamesdevice]

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for the film
The IMDB database has no record of it - yet it does for other Peter Jackson films which are still "in production" e.g. the pair of "Hobbit films

see Peter Jackson - IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001392/)

Load of journalistic hot air over something that may never happen

[Tankertrashnav]

Just for the record, I once made a flight from East Anglia (not Lincs, but close) to Paderborn, then travelled by road to the Mohne dam. Having seen the location at first hand, as an ex nav, in my humble opinion the dams raid was probably one of the most outstanding air operations of the war, and I hold all of those who took part in total awe, including Guy Gibson.

Doesn't invalidate my other remarks which merely repeat what some who actually served with him have said on record.

Shame that the film may not yet happen, would be worth a watch whatever they call the flipping dog!

[stumpey]

You cant change history. Not liking it in the past is what helps stop us repeating it in the future.

If we make a film of an historical event, that film should be as accurate as possible portraying things as they were, not changing things because we now don't like them. We remind our selves of the Holocaust so it can never happen again. I never liked the old "Hairy Mary" battle dress uniform, so lets not dress anybody in them in the film, but put them in the much more comfortable Polly-Cotton ones of today. Wouldn't want to offend anybody who was forced to ware one back then by showing them being worn in todays film! :bored:

Is it a big thing? No. Is it important? YES! Turn a blind eye to the little things today and one day, its a very big thing we are asked to turn our backs on.

To my mind it come down to that nasty little word - INTEGRITY Its very rare in the world today, and one of the reasons I come here to Jet Blast and PPRuNe!

Wish I could have a black Labrador. Would I call it "Nigger"? Probably not, even thought theres no Wogs to offend round here! ;)




"Dutch school children are taught, (and it becomes a matter of great pride to them), to tend the graves of allied servicemen in Holland".

Parabellum thanks for that information. I find it rather heat warming in this nasty little world of ours. :ok:

[muppetofthenorth]

I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for the film
The IMDB database has no record of it - yet it does for other Peter Jackson films which are still "in production" e.g. the pair of "Hobbit films

see Peter Jackson - IMDb (http://www.imdb.com/name/nm0001392/)

Load of journalistic hot air over something that may never happen

The Hobbit films are in pre-production over in the antipodes, hence why there was all the kerfuffle with their acting unions over extras in the not so distant past. The fact they were getting ready to hire extras implies those films are rather more developed than a film which is still having it's screenplay written, which is the case with Dambusters.Comparing the two projects is pointless.

[Dan Winterland]

The dog's grave was outside the Bulldog Sqn's crewroom when Scampton was the home of CFS. My course were standing outside looking at it when our Kenyan student mentioned that perhpas he shouldn't go to the bar that evening. He would be in his room studying as the penalties for failing the course seemed a bit severe!

[sisemen]

As a fully paid up member of Britain (Australia branch), I resent calling the dog Digger. It is surely a slur on the fine fighting men of Australia by comparing them to a mangy black lab wot pissed everywhere.

As Jackson is a New Zealander I can only surmise that the sub-text in this inglorious slur is to continue the trans-Tasman slanging match by using the name in a derogatory sense. I think that Jackson should be blackballed.

Yours,

Disgruntled, Australia.

[stumpey]

Sisemen - :D:D:D:D:ok:

[Jetex_Jim]

Jeez, 4 pages on Guy Gibsons dog, again. And the mods still haven't moved this to Jetblast?

And Steven Fry is STILL working on the script. He's been on with it for years. He should ditch the typewriter and get himself a computer.

[Halton Brat]

Tankertrash, I agree with your post re the Moehne attack. I had a tour at Guetersloh & used to sail on the lake most weekends. But I think that the Eder attack was even more challenging; you will recall that the terrain surrounding the Moehnesee consists of low, rolling hills (not the mountains shown in the old film). The Edersee, however, is cradled in a much more rugged environment of steeply-rising terrain (this is why the Germans put no AAA on this dam; they were sure it was impregnable). So, you come in over the top of Waldeck castle on top of the 1,000ft hill north of the dam, sharp dive to water level at the spit of land opposite the dam, turn c90' left, then you've got approx 1200m before the dam wall. Have a look on an imaging website like flashearth.com & you'll see what I mean.

Clearly though, the Moehne attack featured vigorous AAA defence.

And all this in the dark.................balls of steel..............

HB

[henry crun]

sisemen: You obviously do not know that the term Digger was originally given to New Zealander's in WW1, but has since been appropriated by you lot over there. :p

First Pavlova, then Phar Lap, will there be no end it it ?

[500N]

"sisemen: You obviously do not know that the term Digger was originally given to New Zealander's in WW1, but has since been appropriated by you lot over there. http://images.ibsrv.net/ibsrv/res/src:www.pprune.org/get/images/smilies/tongue.gif

First Pavlova, then Phar Lap, will there be no end it it ?"

Henry
No, it won't end. The problem is, if someone says "Oh, we are from NZ", no one knows where the hell they are talking about so we do it to help them, otherwise kiwi's wouldn't get up in the world:O


And don't forget Split Enz and a few others.

[henry crun]

The list could have been a lot longer but I didn't want to take up too much bandwidth.
In retrospect I should have included John Clarke. :)

[BBadanov]

Henry: "In retrospect I should have included John Clarke."

Who is he - brother of Helen Clarke?? You can have them both, and we will throw in Russell Crowe and Split Enz.

But where are you getting off with Pavlova, and Digger? Bolloxxx !!

[tonker]

The Enola Gay could land at CAMP David, and be met by Wigger the Ginger Setter.

[finestkind]

Mmmm much to serious methinks

Must admit, very keen on being historically correct but as pointed out (by OLD FAT ONE I think) in a movie nothing is ever portrayed historically correctly. We know history is written by the winner; no actually I mean the script writer or authour. In fact I find myself with a foot in both camps I wish it to be historically correct and F^%^$# the cuddly bears that cannot take life as it was. On the same token I do wish to see the movie remade so that those events of heroic historical significance are not lost. Therefore is it worth the effort to worry what the dog was called??
Unfortunately most books/movies show the main figure involved as being a wonderful chap. Having spoken to people that have been privileged to know some significant war time achievers the comments are generally in line with those of Guy Gibson, arrogant etc. Mind you I guess in those days when, someone who does not expect to survive the day out and does so, they have little time for pleasantries such as manners etc

Thread Creepppppp (apologise for the lack of tongue in cheek (no that’s not a gay point or is it?)
Is history important? Yep then why can’t we get it right? History is slowly bent and distorted by all as each has an individual perspective of what they saw, went through etc. Some people believe Bader was wonderful some would not, well that would be rude to say that.

Henry Crun but where did the original digger come from. Happy to be proven wrong but I believe it was applied to gold prospectors in Australia (Ballarat Victoria). A requirement for a Gold/Mine Licence (Eureka Stockade) and the term came about as” have you got your digger licence”, hence with trench warfare at Gallipoli the ANZAC’s all became diggers.

[MTOW]

I understand that the 'Digger' term didn't come into widespread use until 1916, possibly 1917, in France.

However, (I think it was) Birdwood is attributed with the comment, (within a day or two (possibly within a few hours) of the Gallipoli landings, when it had become quite obvious that a quick advance to the opposite coast was no longer an option), that the Australians should "dig, dig" [forget the whole comment] to maintain their very tenuous hold on the ANZAC beach head.

It might not be too widely known, but the Australians, using the civilian expertise of many of their soldiers, also conducted very extensive tunnelling operations at Gallipoli. Some of those tunnels, many still in very good condition, have only been uncovered over the last few years.

[Airborne Aircrew]

I have a digital copy of the original if anyone would like one for themselves... Rather than waste their money on the revisionist version.

[henry crun]

finestkind: I think the term digger as applied to gold miners went back earlier than Ballarat, right back to the mid 1800 gold rushes in Australia and New Zealand, but that is not military use.
That came later when it was sometimes, but not generally, used to describe both the New Zealand and Australian soldiers at Gallipoli.

However, my reading says that the first use of the term to an individual national unit came in 1916 when the New Zealand Pioneer Battalion were so called for their work digging trenches at the Somme.

"The Pioneers earned the nickname the 'Digging battalion' and the term 'Digger' was soon adopted by the rest of the New Zealand Division. By 1917 it had spread from the New Zealand Division to the Australian Divisions in the two Anzac Corps".

That quote is from New Zealand history, I accept that you might prefer to believe an alternative Australian version. :)

[fallmonk]

Was there not reports a while back that Peter Jackson had commissioned 3 full size lanc's from a Chinese factory/aircraft builder ???
After he had discovered blue prints for the original aircraft in RUSSIA!
Am 99% sure I read this and there even was some pictures .

Should the dogs name be changed , to follow the true context of the film/real life then it's a straight NO, Do the film studio want it to sell in the states well then yes it needs to change. Unless the let Quentin Tarantino make it then all bets are off !


Pps , maybe let the BBC make it with Amstrong & miller ;-)

[500N]

I believe he built or is getting 10 built.

Here is a pic of the first.

Takeoff looms for Dambusters | Stuff.co.nz (http://www.stuff.co.nz/entertainment/film/2383809/Takeoff-looms)

[finestkind]

Sorry further thread creep.

Henry not at all, happy to see the other view.(Punctuation a necessity)
Possibly just substantiates my view of how history gets distorted.
A little extract from Wikipedia
Before World War I, the term "digger" was widely used in Australia to mean a miner, and referring to a Kauri gum-digger in New Zealand. Captain Cyril Longmore 44th Battalion AIF, first recorded the Australian troops doing trench digging practice on Salisbury Plain prior to embarking to Turkey and being called 'diggers' by their mates as the origin of the term.

Anyway back to N%%$#$#. No doubt about it, it was a sterling effort but so were many efforts during that and other wars ( the Swordfish boys)

[The Old Fat One]

@ Finest Kind

I would direct you to the work of Michael Focualt, who said (something like) All truth is illusion, the illusory nature of which time make us forget.

@ 500n

That is, unless we pander to every left wing hippy / gay rights et al who thinks it is all a popularity contest.


In his excellent tome, On the Physcology of Military Incompetence, Dixon points out that the sexually liberated tend to do very well in military command, whilst the anally retentive are generally found getting their men to charge machine gun posts or take on numerically superior hoards of bad-tempered Indians. Quite a few famous military leaders have swung it both ways.

Also, having read the whole thread I can't find any "naysayers" of Guy Gibson. We are (me included) in awe of the achievements of this incredibly brave and skillful leader, even if he was an arrogant ar*e.

[forget]

.... even if he was an arrogant ar*e.

On whose say so? Here's a first hand account.

http://www.pprune.org/2587122-post6.html

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

If this is a sample backdrop to the new film's Scampton,

http://static2.stuff.co.nz/1241430225/807/2383807.jpg

changing Nigger's name pales to insignificance. I look forward to seeing a wood and canvass replica of Lincoln Cathedral up on that ridge.

[STANDTO]

Like a lot of people I have mixed feelings about Gibson. Undoubtedly he was a brilliant pilot who led one of the most audacious and skilful operations of the war. On the other hand there is a strong body of opinion from those who were around at the time that he was an arrogant, short-arsed little martinet (remind you of any other WW2 RAF heroes btw?). These people often come to the fore in times of war, and we can be admire and be grateful to them, without actually liking them.

That said, there should be no difficulty finding an unpleasant, arrogant sod to play him - the film world is awash with them.

my favourite quote of all time is by Churchill;

"now is a time to try men of force and vision, and not to be confined to those judged thoroughly safe by conventional standards. "

- it worked back then, and probably is a lot to do with what is wrong with much of the way things are done today.

[Brewers Droop]

GBZ

Disagree; I'd rather see a wood and canvas replica of those hills in Lincolnshire................

[WillDAQ]

You can tell this place isn't a professional screen writers rumour network.

Four pages of pointless outrage, outdated opinions and a sprinkling of casual racism.

Spiffing.

[Clockwork Mouse]

Please explain your definition of an outdated opinion.