England sucks

[ct8282]

Having recently completed my PPL in Florida I am slowly but surely getting used to the English way of doing things. Whilst I agree that flying the UK has it's plus points and that the restricted and congested airspace does help to sharpen the flying skills, I have to say that I think the many bad points outweigh the good stuff.

My local airfield is Shoreham, and I have had a number of flights there now with instructors to help build my confidence of flying in the UK, and during these flights I have had a few touch & go's and have had to stomach the £8.72 each time I put my wheels on the tarmac, or indeed grass.
In the US I could do as many tough & go's as I liked and didn't have pay any extra costs for this. In a a 2 hour lesson I could nail 15 landings easily and this is partcularly good at perfecting the all imporatnt landing phase of the flight. Also, if my approach looked unstable or I wanted to practice very important go arounds I could do this too and wouldn't have to worry about extra costs.

Whilst thinking about this, I decided tha instead of doing touch and go's I would merely do circuit practive at Shoreham and instead substitute the touch and go for go arounds each time and avoid the extra cost. However, having looked at the Shoreham airport website I've realised that even a go around is subject to the £8.72 charge. Staggering!!

I question how many unstable approahces and consequently how mnay bad and potentially dangerous landings occur in the UK becuase of not wanting to pay the 'approach charge'. I argue that this does not allow a pilot to fly safely and relaxed, and I was taught that if any part of the approach is not right you should instigate a go around. I believe this is good and safe airmanship and that people should not be forced into making landings.
It also means that during the training phase you are restricted on your approach and landing practice because of the additional costs associated with this. Take my 2 hour, 15 landing scenario: 15 x 8.72 = £130.8 just for landing. Lot's of dosh!!

I'm sure some of you will find someway to criticise this thread, but in summary I think this SUCKS giant ASS. Personally I do not feel that UK aviation is as good as that in the US. Bring on the flames.... :O

[Crash one]

You are absolutely correct, compared to most of the intelligent world the UK is a rip off. We need a revolution.

[Zulu Alpha]

Get a share in an LAA machine on a small grass strip and watch your costs halve at least.

Much more fun as well

[Genghis the Engineer]

'wot Zula Alpha sed.


Fly or drive up to Popham one day, buy lunch, look at what's going on, look at what people are paying, look at the notice board.

You may wonder if you are in the same country as Shoreham - rather than just the adjacent county.

I quite like Shoreham, but even by UK standards it is atypically complex and expensive - Popham is not too far from you, and at the other end of the scale.

G

[robin]

The LAA route is certainly one way, but there are other ways, one of which is not to use larger airfields for training. I remember having to do my night circuits at a regional airport and the cost of landings dwarfed the cost of the aircraft hire (by the way, you can't do that in an LAA machine!)

Later the club negotiated a better deal elsewhere for that sort of training. My own recommendation is to find a club at a smaller airfield without 'International Spaceport' pretensions, where they take a more realistic view of customer service

[NigelOnDraft]

ct8282

I read your post as far as My local airfield is Shoreham and smiled :)

You have picked an airfield many of us choose to avoid as much as possible. To me, any essentially GA airfield that is pretentious enough to have an ATIS is worth keeping clear of.

I only visit Shoeham when I have to, and the most pleasure I got was managing to park (at the far end), visit who we had to, never wore a yellow jacket and they didn't notice :ok:

As ZA says, just go and find a club / strip where you are not treated as a cash machine. Plenty with minimal, even no, ATC...

Location is clearly an issue - and I am not saying they are perfect examples (but surely better than Shoreham) - but Redhill, Goodwood spring to mind if you need licensed airfields / clubs / schools / aircraft for hire. As soon as you can move from these to strips / unlicensed / LAA types fun will increase in proportion to costs going down :ok:

I'm sure some of you will find someway to criticise this threadNot while it's knocking Shoreham I won't :D

NoD

PS To stop offending, can you alter the thread title e.g. change 'England' to the name of an airfield near Worthing

[mikehallam]

And Deanland, AKA Ripe does training.

If it's just flying you want microlights and LAA Group 'A' need shorter strips generally and the Southern Flyers or Hampshire Microlight Flying Club may be handy for your needs. They'd know what else there is, many not on the charts or in the Guides. Wander around Goodwood might be some useful chat there.

mike hallam

[PAPI-74]

You are paying for the expensive facilities. If these are not required, move to a nice local airfield - or go and do your low approaches into a disused strip / another airfield.
Some will charge you £10 for unlimited gouch and go's.
I wouldn't pay those fees, but they are needed to run such a place!

[The500man]

I question how many unstable approahces and consequently how mnay bad and potentially dangerous landings occur in the UK becuase of not wanting to pay the 'approach charge'.

Probably none. £8.72 isn't all that significant compared to the cost of air time in the subsequent circuit.

Aside from small grass strips, there are some airfields with a yearly membership that covers all landing and circuit fees. It's something I'm always mindfull of when I consider flying somewhere new now, having paid £22 to land C152s at Biggin in the past!

Personally I think flying in the US has spoilt you! So suck it up princess! :)

We need a revolution.

This IS what we need! :D

[dublinpilot]

You'll probably find that the go-around charge isn't there for go-arounds that are needed for safety reasons, but just there for people doing what you proposed to do. ie. take up room in the circuit, but avoid landing to avoid any charge.

The USA is different. They fund their airports differently. It's a simply fact that airports need to be paid for somehow.

In the USA they are paid for via taxation, in the UK, the user pays.

[Rod1]

ct8282

Many ways of getting the best out of UK flying and avoiding the pain you have re landing fees etc but before I jump in can I ask a simple question? Why did you learn to fly? The answer to this will greatly colour any advice.

Rod1

[Genghis the Engineer]

Location is clearly an issue - and I am not saying they are perfect examples (but surely better than Shoreham) - but Redhill, Goodwood spring to mind if you need licensed airfields / clubs / schools / aircraft for hire.

Goodwood certainly, but unless it's changed a lot since I last went there I'd not regard Redhill as much of an improvement over Shoreham.

I still prefer Popham!

G

[Pilot DAR]

No flames today, just flickers and sparks....

I cannot agree that a single word, all encompassing slash at a whole nation is an appropriate reaction to the cost of landing fees.

That said, the cost you describe does sound out of proportion. I had occasion recently to fly from Shoreham, what a delightful airport. nicely maintained, and conveniently situated.

Ahh, well maintained... That costs someone money, I suppose the users would want to pay their fair share of that, to have the facility available.

Conveniently situated... If someone [everyone] does not contribute back that value of the land, it will get swallowed up, like so many airports. I imagine that flying must be one of the most extreme cost of land and facilities vs return activies going. The third busiest airport in Canada will be closed within five years for other land use, and we have space in excess around here!

In 24 years of owning my plane, I have never paid landing fees or hangerage at my home airport. But buying the land, building the hanger, and ongoing maintenance do have their costs. I was thinking yesterday into my second hour of cutting the runway, that my tractor has nearly as many hours on it cutting and snow blowing the runway, as I have put on my plane in that period....

Why not stop by the Shoreham aiport manager's office, and ask if they'll waive some landing fees for you if you spend a day cutting grass for them?

But I agree that 130 GBP for two hours of landings does sound excessive, and a disincentive to currency....

[kharmael]

You will find that a lot of the GA airfields in the US are publicly owned and funded by the taxpayer, thus are freely available for use by any old Joe for nothing.

Such a system does not exist in the UK, since GA is not as widely used in the UK on a day to day basis and there would be an uproar if our taxes were used to fund something seen as a luxury available to only a select few.

As such all our airfield are privately owned and need to charge premium prices to stay open!

[ct8282]

Thanks peeps. Nice to see the good side of a forum showing through. Your replies have indeed prompted me to start looking elsewhere at smaller airfields and I will keep you posted with my progress.

Think I'll start with Popham...

[Crash one]

As such all our airfield are privately owned and need to charge premium prices to stay open!

Yes, we know all that. That is why we need a revolution.
This country is organised all wrong.
Pleasure & fun are frowned upon as unneccessary flippancies.
What we should be doing is "getting on yer bike" & work like stick till you drop, don't use the "National" health service, & get some unfortunate member of family to dig a hole for you. At the same time pay whatever taxes the Government need to fund their bird tables, travel expenses, girl friends flat etc. And god forbid that we should protest!!:ugh:

[herman the crab]

Shoreham? I thought it was Brighton International! You would think all the rent from those shiny buildings would contribute to the running - not...

HTC

[I Love Flying]

Charges - Redhill Aerodrome (http://www.redhillaerodrome.com/index.php/pilot-information/charges)

[RTN11]

Give Bembridge a try, they used to offer an hour of circuits for £20. Now they are open again they may still have that available.

[JOE-FBS]

Well go and live in the USA then. A fabulously wealthy country where they let poor people die for lack of health care and elect religious maniacs as president. Actually, thinking about Mr Blair I'm on a sticky wicket with that one :-)

[patowalker]

And Deanland, AKA Ripe does training.

No circuit training at Deanland. The microlight school based there does circuit training at Headcorn, where they charge £25 for enough to tire you out.

[The500man]

I thought Redhill was a little grass strip. How wrong was I! It even has a live arrivals/ departure board!

Aerodrome Information - Redhill Aerodrome (http://www.redhillaerodrome.com/index.php/aerodrome-information)

Apparently G-BNSR is 20 minutes late arriving back from Calais. Since this information is made publicly available on the internet, shall we speculate wildly as to what may have caused the delay?

[John Miller]

I had an interesting chat to one manager at an airfield I used to visit frequently but no longer do. I quickly realised that high viz aprons are not for safety at all but rather so management can spy on people walking around the airfield. I said so what. His response was that he doesn't want just anyone strolling around and looking into someone else's aeroplane. He wants to easily see who is on his airfield when he looks out of his office window. As far as security is concerned, he couldn't care less if it keeps people away. He has a waiting list for hangarage and outdoor tie-downs. He's unconcerned that people don't visit the airfield any longer. If they do they can stand behind the high fencing an observe what is going on.

That's the sort of attitude that will kill it for aviators and enthusiasts. The airfield is not in the UK by the way.

[englishal]

I fly from a small airfield and don't pay a penny to land each time, though we can't do circuits due to planning restrictions (a 10 min depart and rejoin is ok though). But I have a mate who is in a military Flying Club and we had our aeroplane approved by the MOD. So if we want to do circuits, we head off to a mil base at the weekends (when the military is off work :) ) and do as many as we want for nothing. Thanks Gijoe ;)

[Intercepted]

I have never paid for a touch-and-go, circuit or landing ever at my home airfield. Combined with the refreshing feeling of not having to deal with an unnecessary ATC that can't keep the airfield open due to staffing issues and no yellow jackets, it might be a contributing factor to why my home airifeld is one of the largest and most vibrant airfields in the south east (probably with a lot more movements than Shoreham).

So I have to agree with others... This is not a UK problem, it's a Shoreham (Brighton City) Airport problem :ok:

[Sir George Cayley]

And an other thing.

I guess your rental plane could be quite old, a bit worn around the edges, has iffy radios and clockwork dials.

If you do pop in to Popham, see if you can look in a few homebuilts. I looked at a Vans and a Sportcruiser recently to see complete glass cockpits, leather trimmed seats and spotless too.

Sir George Cayley

[ct8282]

I have never paid for a touch-and-go, circuit or landing ever at my home airfield. Combined with the refreshing feeling of not having to deal with an unnecessaryATC that can't keep the airfield open due to staffing issues and no yellow jackets, it might be a contributing factor to why my home airifeld is one of the largest and most vibrant airfields in the south east (probably with a lot more movements than Shoreham).

So I have to agree with others... This is not a UK problem, it's a Shoreham (Brighton City) Airport problem :ok:

Sounds great. Where is your airfield and how do I get involved?

[Intercepted]

It's easy to get involved, since it's open for everyone

West London Aero Club - Home (http://www.wlac.co.uk/)

[A and C]

The GA industry in the UK is not ripping anyone off, it is just charging the rate it needs to cover the costs.

The biggest costs to GA is tax if one sort or another, the reason that we have higher taxes than the USA is that we have a workable social system that is by and large free. If I have an accident or ill health then you treated for free, the Daily Mail will tell you that the NHS is rubbish but following the very rapid treatment that my wife got when it was discovered she had cancer I have a much higher (and more balanced) opinion on the NHS than the Daily Mail.

If I was in the USA the medical insurance I could buy would only cover so much, the guy who ran my FE course in the USA was still working at 67 and had to sell his pension fund & house to pay for his wifes cancer treatment, he was left after a full career in the airlines with NO money for his old age and no help from the state likely.

On the whole I would rather pay the taxes in Europe and know that I will not end up in a small appartment in the bad end of town if one of my loved ones gets sick.

That having been said you could have not picked a more expensive place Shoreham !

[cockney steve]

there would be an uproar if our taxes were used to fund something seen as a luxury available to only a select few.


I would respectfully suggest that Opera, the Olympics "the Arts" are just at the tip of the iceberg in the" Elitist Subsidy" stakes.

Just to stir the pot a bit more,- A local village was denied a new rail-halt as the cost of meeting the disabled/wheelchair access legislated requirements made it financially unviable.

Unfortunately , G.A. is seen as an elitist hobby, because it is!

Like yachting, there are fairly modest ways of indulging, but if you go mainstream,the costs escalate.

" If it Flies, floats or fxxs,-rent it " Words of a Sage, indeed.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Unfortunately , G.A. is seen as an elitist hobby, because it is!

It can be, it doesn't have to be.

You can rent a spamcan at ~£140/hr (a website at Shoreham shows £107/hr + club membership + landings)

You can buy a £1500 share in a cheap basic aeroplane and fly it for £50/hr - opportunities to do this are easily found at many places.

Neither is a hobby for the destitute, but the second is affordable to most people if they want to fly enough.

But not from a huge and expensive piece of real-estate like Shoreham.


Popham membership is £125/year covering all your landings. A quick google tells me at Popham I could get a C150 share for £2k, then £55/month and £35/hr - so at a sensible minimum of 30 hrs per year, renting at Shoreham would be £4,200, and a share would be ~£3,830 for your first year, and £1,830 for the second and subsequent years (with every chance of getting your £2k back one day).


There are many ways to rework these figures - but if money is an issue, and you want to fly a lot - don't fly from the big high profile airport, and look seriously at a share in something on a permit or private CofA. The big airport and Public CofA do not substantially enhance your flying experience.

It is fair however, why should our hobby be subsidised by the public? But equally, why do we need to fly from a massive lump of tarmac like Shoreham or Cranfield, when much smaller, cheaper, but entirely adequate places are available.

G

[IO540]

Shoreham is an excellent airport.

It's not "dirt cheap" to land there but then going anywhere in a light aircraft is not cheap, and usually the landing fee is barely significant relative to the fuel burnt on any "useful" trip (i.e. one which one could not do in a car in less time).

If one spend a long while banging circuits, that is expensive, but why do that? Why not fly to France, or even further, and do something different?

The UK is not like the USA and it never will be, because here nearly everything is privatised, whereas the US aviation infrastructure is run on common taxes.

why do we need to fly from a massive lump of tarmac like Shoreham or Cranfield, when much smaller, cheaper, but entirely adequate places are available.

Because they are not available, in much of the UK.

"Entirely adequate" for a Maule, maybe.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Because they are not available, in much of the UK.

"Entirely adequate" for a Maule, maybe.

Most light aeroplanes can cope, most of the time, with a 800m runway, with a bit of clearway at each end, and a small clubhouse. The area around that runway can be productive farmland - it doesn't need to be "sterile" and regularly mowed grass, crosswind runways are seldom used (but certainly nice to have, but that runway can also run as a strip through farmland).

Lights and an NDB off the end of the runway are certainly nice to have, as are hangars but could be done fairly cheaply. Or (Goodwood, Thruxton...) you can shove the runway in the middle of a racetrack. We all drive to the airfield anyhow, so it doesn't need to be on expensive real estate close to a town. A/G is good enough for most purposes, and GPS approaches if we get there in the UK would negate any other instrument approaches for other than training purposes.

I like Shoreham, don't get me wrong - I have shares at Cranfield and Booker, and in particular like the option of an instrument approach at EGTC, or lights at both - but most GA flying, most of the time, can equally be done for much less money from a Popham or a Sandown.

G

[Oldpilot55]

We have an 800 metre tarmac runway, lights which are never used, clear approaches so home made GPS let downs pretty safe, hangarage, club house without catering, avgas, £110 a year membership and reciprocal landings with 25 or so other airfields.
You have to live in the right part of the country. I think we are pretty lucky.

[IO540]

Of course, this situation is severely location dependent.

As oldpilot55 says above.

I pay a few k a year for hangarage. I know a pilot "up norff" who pays about 1/10 of that, in an area which is a total dump, where nobody wants to live, where the weather is crap (even by UK standards), etc.

There is a whole pile of cheap places in East Anglia, but I would not want to live there if you paid me for it, and seemingly neither would most of the UK otherwise they would all be there now (nice beaches, etc).

In the South East, it's lovely to live here, the wx is good, but property is expensive and so is hangarage and most other stuff. Even pub food is expensive. And getting planning is often very hard or impossible.

Much of Kent is inaccessible, due to crap roads, otherwise everybody would be flying out of Lydd. Headcorn is similar and is grass (see below), Goodwood is grass, Sandown is grass (and is on the IOW so basically no good for anything except a burger run, or if you live on the IOW, because transport to/from the IOW makes Sandown meaningless for going somewhere), Redhill is grass. Hangarage in these places is mostly nonexistent. Dunsfold looks interesting but is on a crap road (A281) and has some other issues. I think that kind of covers the area...

There is a good bunch of strips there but they are very tight (Deanland e.g.) as to who gets the Royal Pleasure to visit them :) and most are inaccessible for an aircraft with any significant mission capability (I mean beyond a burger run).

Shoreham is a unique facility which nobody should do anything less than support. Yeah, there are difficult issues concerning the fraught politics of its ownership which I won't go into here (but know a great deal about).

And I am not even talking about IAPs, which, frankly, is moot for just about any UK coastal airport unless it has an ILS (because you can descend well enough over the sea, etc...). I would certainly not regard an NDB as useful - it is useful purely to support commercial flight training, and certain passenger carrying ops where one needs the facade of an "instrument approach approved by the CAA". One just uses a GPS in the OBS mode.

The problem with "grass" is that the risk of potholes goes way up, and a prop strike is about £20000. Prop strikes are a BIG thing in GA, which tends to get swept under the carpet, except by the insurance companies and the luckless owners. The prop shops love it of course.

Of course a hard runway with grass taxiways, and crap transitions between the two, is just as bad. One rarely gets a prop strike on the runway (short of a seriously wheelbarrowed landing). So most owners of "higher quality/performance" hardware want a proper runway etc. And they want hangarage otherwise the plane just rots. Also, constant operation from grass does translate to a more mucky plane, more crap everywhere, and bigger maintenance bills. And most pistons twins or turboprops cannot be sensibly operated from grass (high tyre loading) unless covertly reinforced and that costs about £50k-100k for a runway and a bit of taxiway.

I don't want to start another "LAA" thread but one needs to be careful to not try to bring down GA to its lowest common denominator. The community comprises of a broad spectrum of stuff and while a great deal of it could exist purely out of farm strips, on Tesco petrol, this is far from a solution for everybody.

Airports like Shoreham are vital and should be supported.

[Genghis the Engineer]

Airports like Shoreham or Cranfield should be supported, but not necessarily by somebody like the OP with limited money trying to fly on a budget. And flying regularly from Cranfield I don't pay anything like they're charging down at Shoreham - it is very expensive real-estate.

People with, as you say, turboprops and piston twins probably do prefer a long hard runway. But equally, if you can afford to fly one of those, you can equally afford the fees at Shoreham, and most of us don't fly aeroplanes like that.

Incidentally, in half a dozen years I flew out of Popham I remember two propstrikes - a Yak taxiied into a signpost, and a Renegade over-braked and tipped on its nose. I think it's an overrated concern.

Grass runways can be very variable, particularly in the UK - Popham quite rightly bans circuits in the winter - on the other hand I still fly regularly from a much less intensively used grass strip close to Popham, where the only problems we ever have are when somebody forgot to mow it. But twins to regularly operate from good grass runways - White Waltham and Old Sarum come to mind.

GPS .v. NDB approaches. Interesting. A debate for another thread I suspect. NDBs are horrible, but they are the most common approaches published at UK airports - we should have GNSS approaches published and useable, and ideally certifiable portable GPS units for approaches. Unofficially of-course, we can all do that anyhow, but it becomes legally iffy.

G

[IO540]

Yes, fair enough, but if you are money-limited then you are better off flying somewhere "nice" with a cost-sharing passenger, than bashing circuits at £10-20 at your local airfield.

[thing]

I think it all comes down to what you want from flying. IO540 (seems to be) an intensive business flyer with a very nice GA a/c and there is a place for that. On the other hand there are people like me who just like flying and are happy in a spam can/glider and love chewing the fat with other flyers.

I can see why 540 wants a hangar and good runways/facilities, but of course I don't need those and I suspect most people here don't. Let's face it, other than the few business users/pro pilots here, it's a lot more sensible and cost effective to drive wherever you are going.

We fly because we love flying and we put up with the crap in this country because we need to fly.

I might add that I fly from an airfield with ILS and ATC and don't pay anything for circuits and landings so perhaps I'm a little spoiled.

[IO540]

I do very little business flying, but try to do a certain % of trips to more interesting places, in between local flights for currency / sightseeing with friends.

And yes I put up with the crap too - because I enjoy flying.

It isn't just UK crap BTW; the crap is now all over Europe, in varying degrees.

Business flying is not that easy in the UK because the distances are not that great and can be mostly driven/etc in a similar time. Also the wx risk precludes formal customer visits, unless you have something very capable, are flying between airports which are ILS-equipped and have usable opening hours.

[thing]

Ah apologies then, I had the notion, wrongly obviously that you used the 20 for business trips. In that case, I envy your TB20 but I bet you've never spun an ASW19........:)

[thing]

It was a tongue in cheek comment but just in case you thought I was serious I've never flown a TB20 down an ILS. There are different types of flying. Flogging a 747 across the Atlantic requires a different discipline to poling a glider around on a good day, which requires a different discipline to putting a 172 down on 400 metres of grass. All I'm sure are equally as satisfactory from a pilot's point of view.

[IO540]

I don't regard flying an ILS as some kind of great objective, although I can do it OK.

For me, flying has always been about (a) being "up there" and (b) seeing Europe from the air and going to nice places.

Banging circuits was never my idea of fun and actually I don't think it is a good use of time or money in training because the workload is high and not representative of most real situations.

Yes, the OP could have worked out the cost up front as all those costs are openly known, but one could say that about all of the people who give up flying because they cannot afford to do it.

I just think he ought to expand his horizons a bit and not burn money on circuits. A US-trained PPL can certainly fly but they tend to get baffled by European ground procedures, and the IFR ones are universally baffled by the IFPS "Jeppesen business protection" system :)

[thing]

"Some of the most eminent glider pilots are also airline pilots for their job. Two extremes of a fascinating subject. I like it all. "


Me too. When I was in the RAF I was on Phantoms and George Lee who was one of our jocks was world gliding champ I believe at the time. We have a whole raft of pilots at my club from warbird flyers, airline pilots to guys like me who just like the £100 burger run. (Did one today actually but it was steak and chips!)

The whole issue of aviation from how they are designed, put together and built to flying them is totally engrossing to me whether they are a Taylor Titch or a 380. I think that flying is either in your blood or it isn't but I've learned not to bore non flyers to sleep by rattling on about the difference between the Merlin and Hercules engined Lancaster........:)

[Genghis the Engineer]

"Some of the most eminent glider pilots are also airline pilots for their job. Two extremes of a fascinating subject. I like it all. "


Me too. When I was in the RAF I was on Phantoms and George Lee who was one of our jocks was world gliding champ I believe at the time. We have a whole raft of pilots at my club from warbird flyers, airline pilots to guys like me who just like the £100 burger run. (Did one today actually but it was steak and chips!)

The whole issue of aviation from how they are designed, put together and built to flying them is totally engrossing to me whether they are a Taylor Titch or a 380. I think that flying is either in your blood or it isn't but I've learned not to bore non flyers to sleep by rattling on about the difference between the Merlin and Hercules engined Lancaster........:)

Sadly, a level of enthusiasm that seems to be diminishing in the civil-professional pilot community.

G

[Genghis the Engineer]

On the other hand, a few circuits once in a while - particularly if getting used to a new aeroplane or airfield, is not a bad practice. I quite often finish off a good days flying with a couple.

G

[ct8282]

The original complaint appears to be that he did 15 circuits at Shoreham and got charged 130 quid for the privilege.
Followed by

Surely the moral here is to:
(a) check on what the fees might be before taking the plunge
and (b) don't compare the UK with where you did your initial PPL as it should hardly come as a surprise considering it was the reason for doing it in Florida in the first place!

Doesn't seem that 8.72 quid is that bad a fee for the services provided at Shoreham.
It doesn't seem that Shoreham actually did anything underhand if they publish the rate.
Maybe the Instructor might have advised better or recommended going a bit further afield to do the circuits.
On a side note - why was it felt necessary to have to do 15 approaches? Was the training for the PPL in Florida lacking in some manner that required it?

Lol, I most definitely did not do 15 circuits at Shoreham. Read my thread again matey, I'm sure it states that I was able to bang out 15 circuits in Florida during my PPL training without the worry of mounting costs.

I suppose in summary I was spoilt with my 8500ft (10R) runway and no extra charges at Fort Pierce St Lucie International.... :O

I do have to say though that another frustration is the lack of night flying potential in the UK. In the US we could hop in the plane and fly the night skies of Florida, pretty much land where we liked (and had control over large airport lights with our PTT button), and really enjoy it. One night I bashed out 8 circuits at night, all very very good practise indeed and really helps to build up confidence and get those landings spot on.

For anyone who hasn't done it, it really is worth a 2 week holiday to Florida just to experience the freedom of US aviation.

http://www.fishe.co.uk (http://www.fishe.co.uk/) Now that's a damn good deal!!

[IO540]

Indeed; limited airport operating hours is a major issue which cripples the utility value of GA in Europe, and for no good safety reason. It is just anally retarded regulation.

Even pilot controlled lights are "banned" by the CAA, though I gather that the bloke who kept that policy going (on the basis of some word play with what an aeronautical radio frequency may be used for) is no longer around, so maybe a strong push for PCL might yield a result. A number of small private airfields have PCL, discreetly, and I would certainly do that if I had one. I'd use SMS to operate the lights.

[patowalker]

On a side note - why was it felt necessary to have to do 15 approaches? Was the training for the PPL in Florida lacking in some manner that required it?

:):):) + 10 characters

[The500man]

I do have to say though that another frustration is the lack of night flying potential in the UK.

This is certainly true, but it's not just at night. There seem to be many UK airfields that close at silly times like Fairoaks closing at 6pm. It isn't gonna get dark for another few hours in summer!

Don't fret though because we live in the UK and we can land outside of the published operating hours (with prior permission) if we pay an extra £100 or so for the priviledge!

limited airport operating hours is a major issue which cripples the utility value of GA in Europe, and for no good safety reason.

What is the reason? Is it just to pay someone to switch the lights on and off again, or does there have to be a fireman etc?

[JW411]

IO540:

"Most piston twins or turboprops cannot be sensibly operated from grass...."

Actually Peter, I saw a Pilatus PC-12 at Compton Abbas last Friday. As you might know, it is not the smoothest strip in the world and I was surprised to see one there. However, it took off quite happily in half the strip.

cjboy:

Lancaster IIs were indeed equipped with Bristol Hercules engines. I believe I read somewhere that the Merlin Lancaster Is and IIIs had a better performance.

thing:

I knew George Lee well. I think one of my best weeks was flying several types of glider, an RF3, Cessna 206, BN Islander and a Short Belfast all in one week.

Happy Daze

[IO540]

What is the reason? Is it just to pay someone to switch the lights on and off again, or does there have to be a fireman etc?

The answer to most UK aviation regulatory matters is here (http://press.princeton.edu/titles/7929.html).

I saw a Pilatus PC-12 at Compton Abbas last Friday. As you might know, it is not the smoothest strip in the world and I was surprised to see one there. However, it took off quite happily in half the strip.

Sure; I have seen a TBM going to grass strips too. It's OK, but I did say "most" :)

The grass needs to be solid.

[JW411]

I would actually think that the formula is "if you can afford to run a PC-12, you can put it where you like".

[Monocock]

I find the original poster's comments quite irritating.

Someone decides to spend their money abroad to get a cheaper PPL and then comes back to whinge about how things are in the UK deserves no sympathy. Does he not realise that by depriving a UK of the revenue of yet another PPL course that he is paying the consequential price of an airfield trying to make ends meet? Perhaps if he had trained in the UK he would have contributed to our fraternity, done his part for our cause and wouldn't have been so quick to criticise.

Personally I do not feel that UK aviation is as good as that in the US

So why don't you go back there then!!

I bet he moans about having to talk to mobile phone service providers who are based abroad too:ugh:

[Pace]

Monocock

Someone decides to spend their money abroad to get a cheaper PPL and then comes back to whinge about how things are in the UK deserves no sympathy. Does he not realise that by depriving a UK of the revenue of yet another PPL course that he is paying the consequential price of an airfield trying to make ends meet? Perhaps if he had trained in the UK he would have contributed to our fraternity, done his part for our cause and wouldn't have been so quick to criticise.

Monocock

Sorry have butted into this thread because I dont agree with your sentiments.

Surely he should be coming/staying in the UK to get a cheaper PPL than in the USA not the other way around? Isnt that the basis of any free market?

We are saddled with needless over regulation, needless Burocracy, excessive taxes to pay for a whole host of irrelevant things and sadly we are now one of the most expensive highly taxed countries in the world and a country which has eroded away its freedoms through that big brother state mindset.

Why did 70 to 100000 pilots get FAA licences to fly in Europe? Because of a deep love of the USA?

You supply good services and attractive products at attractive prices and the market will follow.

Europe and the UK need to de regulate, reduce taxation, eliminate waste and in aviation put a system into place which is attractive and encourages it to grow not throttles GA to death as is happening now!
Even our most famous academy at Oxford Kidlington palmed out its training to the USA go figure ?

Pace

[Ian Burgess-Barber]

The mark 2 Lanc had Bristol Hercules 1650 HP engines fitted because RR could not make Merlins fast enough to satisfy the demand from all the companies who wanted them at the time. The other solution to the shortage was the American Packard Merlin fitted to nearly 4000 Lancs. The Herc engined Lancs built by Armstrong Whitworth were just 300 out of the total of 7374 Lancs made. They had a lower service ceiling and a higher fuel consumption but were faster at lower altitudes.

[Monocock]

Pace

Sorry. I must be wrong in my assumption that the OP was British.

[ct8282]

First off, I'm not your matey.
Reading your original post you stated:
Which gave me and maybe others the impression that was what you spent and hence why folks were directing your towards Popham etc.

Instead, it turns out that you are simply moaning about what it might have cost you compared to here in the US.
Well, suffice it to say that you cannot keep comparing the reality of what it will cost you in the UK - compared to your brief 18 day trip to Florida.

You have had your PPL for 3 weeks and so far your last 2 posts have been titled
Quick Rant....
and
England Sucks

Do stop whinging and whining.

Sorry, but it's been a tough transition going from flying every day in a relaxed, positive atmosphere in the US, to being restricted from enjoying the joy of flying as often as I would like by the ridiculously high cost, overtaxed, over regulated UK aviation arena.

Sorry for my quick rant, but England really does suck sometimes matey!

[AfricanEagle]

I fly in Italy .......................................................

[Monocock]

[Sorry, but it's been a tough transition going from flying every day in a relaxed, positive atmosphere in the US, to being restricted from enjoying the joy of flying as often as I would like by the ridiculously high cost, overtaxed, over regulated UK aviation arena.

Accepted, but unless you plan to Fox Oscar back to the US what do you plan to gain by moaning openly about the fees? Did you have a chat with Shoreham about their charges and asking to do a deal on the missed approaches? No, probably not.

I can't quite work out how good the training in America can be if the PPL's they "churn out" are required by the UK instructor system to go round and round in circles when they come back to the UK.....

Quite worrying.

[LeeP-PA28]

I too passed my PPL not so long ago - it costs me £120 p/h wet in a clubs PA28 from Sherburn. Yes, there's a joining fee, but for the facilities and resources I've got at my disposal it's a drop in the ocean. 4 very well maintained runways, 1 tarmac with APAPI lighting, NDB, about 15 aircraft to pick from etc - flying in the UK will always be more expensive when comparing to abroad. In the same way my Subaru used to "suck" at getting 19mpg on £1.47 superunleaded compared to the 65mpg in my new diesel focus.

Since qualifying, I've had some of the greatest times of my life flying in the UK airspace. I've been across to the coast, down to Cambridge, planning the Isle of Man, last week I got up to FL65 and could see both sides of the country with the viz! And just today, a 3.5hour round trip to a lovely field at Eshott, then on to Holy Island and back through Newcastle Class D (with a KLM airliner 1000ft underneath me right to left) right by the threshold to the active and then again down to Durham.

The thing is - yes it is expensive but surely you knew what you were getting yourself into when you started. My answer: JFDI! Enjoy the qualification you have and remember, it's certainly cheaper at present than owning your own :)

[Monocock]

Well said, and well supported of a British flying club.

[AfricanEagle]

LeeP-PA28, refreshing post and great to see someone enjoying flying so much :ok:

[stevelup]

being restricted from enjoying the joy of flying as often as I would like by the ridiculously high cost, overtaxed, over regulated UK aviation arena.

It doesn't have to be like that - you just need to put the effort into finding yourself a better solution. There have been many useful suggestions in this thread.

[Pace]

Took a Citation into Norwich for a few hours last week. The aircraft owner got a bill for about £400 to land and be handled there and thats not a major airport.

This isnt directed at the handling agents who had an expensive new setup and could not have been nicer.

Nevertheless it does make you wonder how anyone can afford to fly in the UK or for that matter how the airports and their sub industries can manage to survive over here.

Pace

[Rod1]

Have a look at the Lancashire landing 2011 thread. Flying in the UK does not have to be expensive or over regulated but you do need to understand the options, which takes a bit of effort.

Rod1

[IO540]

A US PPL is not much cheaper nowadays than a UK one. Their avgas has gone up hugely.

The chief plus of a US PPL is that you can do it as a solid project out there, in a few weeks, whereas the average time in the UK is a year due to training being constantly broken by bad weather. Of course, if somebody picked their time right and camped out next to a UK school they would do better but few UK schools are organised anywhere as well as the US ones, but few people do that because the UK option enables the training to be fitted around's one's life and income. The school I did my IR in (Arizona) was like clockwork. Maintenance and refuelling during the night, downtime = zero. Instructor availability 100%.

Some things remain far cheaper in the USA, e.g. my IR cost me something like $4k (incl motel, travel, and food etc) whereas a JAA IR is something like £15k. But that is due to other factors, not the change of scenery...

Took a Citation into Norwich for a few hours last week. The aircraft owner got a bill for about £400 to land and be handled there and thats not a major airport.

Unfortunately people like your client inadvertently create The Handling Problem :) Most jet owners couldn't care less whether they get charged £400 or £2000 for having their sewage drained out and having some delicious coffee and croissants delivered by a very well dressed young lady with a very properly respectful smile and just the right amount of cleavage (the latter must be awfully hard to find within 50nm of Luton). The airport manager, being a fresh MBA from the Univ of Upper Warlingham (i.e. a clue-less moron who has never run even a chip shop) loves this kind of thing and doesn't want "dirty GA" around when these "nice customers" turn up.

[AdamFrisch]

For me, what makes it great to fly in the US is not the free landings and such - I'm happy to pay a landing fee - but that they work like all airports should: no bloody PPR and they're open after 5pm. That's true freedom.

Last time I was back and flew into Goodwood (which is a nice airfield) the AFIS woman asked "Have you got a PPR?" to which I answered "no" as I'd deliberately checked in Pooley's that you didn't need one (only that it was recommended). After I said that her whole tone changed and she got curt, short and very unhelpful. That pretty much sums up many English fields for me. They're run by people who like to control you in every way they can and if you won't submit yourself to that, they punish you. If they want a PPR, then by all means make it mandatory and lose some business. Not everyone in GA is out for a Sunday flight with the in-laws, you know. Some actually go places, change their minds, bimble, explore. You know - fly.

That said, there are a number of lovely grass fields where the kettle is on constant boil for any visitors - that's the lovely bit about English fields. Friendly. I feel closer to aviation in those than anywhere else. But they're becoming fewer and fewer.

[LeeP-PA28]

Pace:


Took a Citation into Norwich for a few hours last week. The aircraft owner got a bill for about £400 to land and be handled there and thats not a major airport.

This isnt directed at the handling agents who had an expensive new setup and could not have been nicer.

Nevertheless it does make you wonder how anyone can afford to fly in the UK or for that matter how the airports and their sub industries can manage to survive over here.

Surely it was a requirement to land at Norwich then? Yet there is Cambridge not too far away with pucka facilities and likely a hell of a lot cheaper than that?

It's all about picking your places. I rang up Durham Tees yesterday and spoke to the Handlers. With a little chit chat, I managed to get the handling fee down to a tenner, the landing fee was fixed at £24.99. Will I land there? Possibly not. But it's good to know a local facility with fuel / facilities / hotels nearby should there ever be problems is there and not a million pounds to land. Compare that to Doncaster and Humberside - both £44 for a PA28 for landing, then there's handling at Donny too....

With my membership, I also get unlimited landings/go arounds. I frequently when returning from a flight pop in and do 3 - 4 circuits, just to keep currency with them. The club always has back seats available (sometimes side seats) so always someone to go flying with. It's what's it all about....!

There's Fenton 2nm away where I can request ILS approaches too when the training permits - perfect!

[ct8282]

It doesn't have to be like that - you just need to put the effort into finding yourself a better solution. There have been many useful suggestions in this thread.

Yeah, there has been indeed. A useful thread and it's definitely given me a few ideas. Thanks peeps.

[Flyingmac]

I pay about £80 for annual membership. For that I get unlimited landings, circuits, go-arounds etc at my home base and twelve other airfields with which we have a reciprocal arrangement. I don't go to the likes of Shoreham, or buy bottled water.:)

[zondaracer]

Obama tried to implement aviation user fees. Fortunately, they were lobbied out

[Genghis the Engineer]

In my opinion, the biggest advantage to doing a PPL (or any other licence) in the USA, for a Brit, is that you've removed yourself from the home environment, and they have really excellent weather availability in placess like Florida or Arizona.

So, you can reasonably hope to do courses on the basis of 7-10 hours of flying per week. That sort of intensive flying, really gets the learning curve nice and steep, so there's a good chance of doing it in minimum hours.

If you end up doing a bit of further training back in the UK, well so be it - that's fun (as all flying training should be) anyhow.

I did my PPL(M) in the UK and took a little over minimum hours but about 9 months, my PPL(SEP) in Florida in a fortnight and minimum hours, and my CPL in the UK in 18 months and somewhat over minimum hours. I primarily blame the slow learning curve caused by doing things at a lesson (or often less for one reason or another) per week.

So, there's much to be said I think for learning in the USA - just accept that things at home are different and if you've not actually flown in the UK much before, you've some additional learning to do.

G

[ct8282]

In my opinion, the biggest advantage to doing a PPL (or any other licence) in the USA, for a Brit, is that you've removed yourself from the home environment, and they have really excellent weather availability in placess like Florida or Arizona.

So, you can reasonably hope to do courses on the basis of 7-10 hours of flying per week. That sort of intensive flying, really gets the learning curve nice and steep, so there's a good chance of doing it in minimum hours.

If you end up doing a bit of further training back in the UK, well so be it - that's fun (as all flying training should be) anyhow.

I did my PPL(M) in the UK and took a little over minimum hours but about 9 months, my PPL(SEP) in Florida in a fortnight and minimum hours, and my CPL in the UK in 18 months and somewhat over minimum hours. I primarily blame the slow learning curve caused by doing things at a lesson (or often less for one reason or another) per week.

So, there's much to be said I think for learning in the USA - just accept that things at home are different and if you've not actually flown in the UK much before, you've some additional learning to do.

G

Absolutely. I have only flown with instructors since I've been home, practising things like the overhead join (give me a 45 anyday :cool:), transit through controlled airspace, MATZ penetration, and just radio practice and experience. The radio is an interesting one and is certainly harder on the UK. Again, I much prefer the US way but also agree that RT in the US is a bit too relaxed and some of the comms I listened to over there were just awful and damn funny,

Anyhow, doesn't look like there'll be any flying for me this weekend, or many people as the weathers looking nasty. One of my instructors from Florida sent me the METAR from Florida yesterday evening. Not fair.

[frangatang]

Indeed you are!

[foxmoth]

One of my instructors from Florida sent me the METAR from Florida yesterday evening. Not fair.


Wait another month then look at them - a lot of "TSRA" until mid October

[IO540]

Yes, Florida is anything but guaranteed for wx, and I recall a post here from another "UK Florida PPL" who was out there for weeks and missed most days' flying, and was well cheesed off. I've been there on holes a number of times...

Arizona is 362/365 CAVOK or easily flyable. But there are no JAA-capable schools there. If there were, they would wipe the floor on training. I recall some European airlines doing training out there, years ago. Must have been just CPL hour building because JAA prohibits any IR training outside JAA-land.

S. California is the only other place.

[ShyTorque]

England sucks

The whole world sucks. That's how gravity works.

[Pace]

Shy Torque

Things are not good as far as GA goes in the UK at present.
They are not good as far as GA goes in Europe (Frankly they never were as GA didnt exist other than in France and Germany)
The UK is now one of the most expensive highly taxed countries in the world.
Today there is a warning to the conservatives on wanting to be the green party regarding carbon emissions.
It is warned that this policy will jeopordise the recovery. The UK emits 2% of world Carbon emissions yet wants to be the leader in tackling a problem which is dwarfed by the Icelandic volcano.
Things are not Rosy regarding GA in the UK or Europe.

Pace

[J.A.F.O.]

Didn't you play the donkey in Winnie the Pooh?

[IO540]

No that was me.

[foxmoth]

He was Marvin in HH guide!:}