Pickling a Car - Long Term Storage

[nomorecatering]

Has anyone put a car into long term storage when taking a job where you dont need one.

Ive got instructions on pickling an aero engine, draining the oil and filling it with a special preservation oil, also taking out the plugs and spraying the cylinder bores with a special oil.

Is there an equivalent proccedure for a car engine.

Would there be a diffenrence if you wanted to drive the car for 1 week every 4 months.

Advice anyone?

[Lasiorhinus]

4 months will be fine for a car. Disconnect the battery, which will stop the clock from draining power, but even so you're likely to have problems getting enough juice to start the car unless you have a very good battery.

Alternatively, loan the car to someone, or the keys, and have someone drive it every month or so.

[Sunfish]

Put it on blocks so the springs and tyres aren't taking any weight. Get a battery tender (baby charger) to keep your battery OK.

Get it serviced so the oil is good.

[ShyTorque]

All good advice. One more thing. Whatever you do, however cold the winter might be, do NOT drain the coolant because it also protects the engine block,wet liners if fitted, coolant passages and water pump innards from corrosion. If anything drain a litre of coolant and stick another litre or so of the undiluted stuff in there.

I've recently been shown some photos of a "brand new, old stock" Nissan turbo engine (expensive) bought by a friend which had been test run on a rig then stored on a pallet without coolant in it. The cast iron water pump impellor had corroded into just a blob of rust inside, totally ineffective. The engine overheated badly first time it was fitted in my friend's restored car and run up. It made a terrible mess of the entire cooling system.

[stuckgear]

agree with ST. dont drain the fluids, they also keep o-rings and seals moist. if you can put it on axel stands to prevent flat spotting the tyres, and get a plug in batter conditioner (range from 35-70 quid) dont know hat they are in dunnunda money, plugs into the cigar lighter and trickle charges when the battery level drops.

[Deaf]

Regarding batteries, if it is outside a solar charger will keep them up to spec. Jaycar have a 30ma unit which works well.

I have two batteries in the disco, one connected and one disconnected with the solar unit on it. Change over about every 6 months and the solar has kept the disconnected one up to charge (except for the last time but the battery had a July 03 date on it).

[Lancelot37]

My car stands in the drive in the north east of England for 3 months over winter ever year as we go to Australia. I do nothing to it before we leave except leave the hand brake off. It's an auto-box so I leave it in Park. It's seven years old and on the original battery, starts first time on return.
I do expect it to fail to start and the battery will give out one day. It gets covered in snow and a neighbough delights in emailing me pictures of it!

[Wallsofchina]

How long are you planning to leave it nmc?

[compressor stall]

Fill the fuel tank too.

And fuel can go off as well, but not in three months.

As for the battery, I bought a trickle charger for $25 yesterday from Jaycar for my toy that'll be sitting idle in the garage for the next four months as I started pulling it apart but will be sidetracked with other things shortly.

[Wally Mk2]

All good advice to some degree but really the best thing to do with an unused car is to use it:-) As they say use it or lose it:-) Simply get someone to run it to operating temp exercising the auto/clutch, the pwr steering (if fitted) & the brakes. Also the heater & A/C system. A tank of gas is a cheap cost.Starting it for a couple of mins only every now & then is not good enuf, must be brought up to operating temp.
For extreme long term storage there's various inhibitors commercially available for the eng & cooling system. On jacks & battery removed.
There is another way out of this...........sell it !:)


Wmk2

[The Green Goblin]

Depends on how long you're storing it. A couple of months at a time you don't need to do much.

A couple of years at a time you need to store it correctly.

I put mine on axle stands and filled the engine full (I mean to the head) with oil.

When I restarted it, I took the spark plugs out, turned it over and let oil pump out of the spark plug holes. This relubed everything internally.

I then drained the oil, filled it with fresh oil, replaced the plugs and kicked her over.

Restarted first shot.

[Wally Mk2]

'GG' ..............and there was just a little bit of smoke right?:)
I bet ya whole neighborhood was under a cloud of blue smoke after that little stunt:-) A few drops of oil from worn valve stem seals creates clouds of smoke from old cars even after sitting at the lights for a minute or two never lone having filled ya whole donk with the stuff (draining most of it), you must have had the fire brigade on site !:)

Wmk2

[The Green Goblin]

'GG' ..............and there was just a little bit of smoke right?
I bet ya whole neighborhood was under a cloud of blue smoke after that little stunt:-) A few drops of oil from worn valve stem seals creates clouds of smoke from old cars even after sitting at the lights for a minute or two never lone having filled ya whole donk with the stuff (draining most of it), you must have had the fire brigade on site !

Wmk2

Nope, once you drain the oil it's gone. This is also the technique to unseize an engine.

You do end up with a bit of oil on the block after turning it over full (from where it sprayed out of the spark plug holes). Obviously you degrease and wash the engine before starting once it's all back together and ready to start.

No smoke that I remember. Smoke is good though, it means there is oil in the bores and you won't be grinding metal on metal!

[Wally Mk2]

I find that hard to believe but shall give you the benefit of the doubt GG:ok:
There's always a film of oil on the bores on any engine otherwise recip donks would have a life span of a few hrs at best:-)
Just for the record filling an engine via the normal filling point technically won't necessarily fill the bores if the rings/pistons are in good order. You would have to fill each pot via the spark plug opening.:) It would take an inordinate amount of effort to fill an engine completely with oil but would be worth it for extreme long term storage.




Wmk2

[The Green Goblin]

I find that hard to believe but shall give you the benefit of the doubt GG
There's always a film of oil on the bores on any engine otherwise recip donks would have a life span of a few hrs at best:-)
Just for the record filling an engine via the normal filling point technically won't necessarily fill the bores if the rings/pistons are in good order. You would have to fill each pot via the spark plug opening. It would take an inordinate amount of effort to fill an engine completely with oil but would be worth it for extreme long term storage.




Wmk2

How do you think the film of oil gets on the bores to lubricate them? The same way pouring oil through the filler will fill the engine completely with oil including the cylinders.

The reason you do this is to prevent all the oil draining into the sump over time. Thence once you turn the engine over, you have to wait until the oil pump builds pressure and redistributes the oil to the head. In the mean time the pistons are grinding on the bores with minimal lubrication.

[remoak]

Have to agree with Wally. The only route for oil to get to the top of the pistons is via the rings or the valve stem seals. Even if they were very worn, it would take a very long time for the bores to completely fill with oil. Maybe if you chucked the oil down the spark plug holes...

Oil gets on the bores to lubricate them via the oil control rings (ie the bottom ones), which are in turn fed via holes in the pistons. The only way you will get oil above the piston crowns is if you deliberately pour it down the spark plug holes - which is the correct way to preserve an engine, as it happens ;) Or if your valve stem seals are completely knackered.

[Tankengine]

Not to mention that some valves will be open so you would need to fill intake manifold and exhaust as well to FILL engine!:E

[Wallsofchina]

Good point Tankengine, then you have to worry about valve guides, camshaft bearings, cam chain (top) etc., then you have to worry about the tops of the gearbox seals, axle seals, diff seals and so on.

Since no more catering didn't tell us what vehicle or how long it's a piece of string, and maybe he was playing with us.

Up here in the dry local conditions I've started engines which have been idle for 40 years without any preservation - just a good squirt of WD40 in the plug hole and turn over on the stater to blow the residue out so oil does cling to the bores, but if water can get into the manifold the engine's seized.

Some manufacturers have long term (6 months +) storage procedures, but they are extensive and involve a lot of disassembly and coating with grease, so no more catering, if you do want to store a precious vehicle (not one you would be better off selling as advised above) you would be well advised to scour the web for some of the old instructions - usually British, and parfticularly where a vehicle was to be shipped by sea.

[Old Akro]

You could run it with some upper cylinder lubricant to give the top end a bit of a coating with oil.

Phil Irving's advice for starting new engines is not to let them idle, but run them at maybe 2,000 rpm and no load (ie car at standstill) to create oil splash lubrication. If you are going to run the car at intermediate periods, then you must run it until the oil temperature gets above 100 degC so any water condensate is boiled off. And the engine & exhaust should get hot enough so that when its shut down there isn't water condensate in the exhaust.

If its an alloy block it would be worth changing the coolant after you start driving it again and you should also (at least partly) replace the brake fluid. Its hygroscopic and will absorb moisture while its sitting.

Other than that there should be no issue. I wouldn't worry about putting it on blocks for 3-4 months, but raising the tyre pressure might be good. If the car has no "key off" battery load, the battery will be OK for 3 months. One of my old Alfa's has a clock that will drain the battery in about 3 weeks. So, you either need a trickle charger, or disconnect the battery or face up to putting a new battery in it later. Once a battery has been really flat, it will never come back again.

[remoak]

We used to just drop about a tablespoon of castor oil down each plug hole and then turn the engine over with the coil(s) disconnected... that coats the bores nicely, and is good prior to starting an engine that has sat for a while. About 10-20 revolutions is all you need to get the oil circulating via the pump. No meaningful wear will occur if you do this before starting an engine that has been sitting... if you are really keen, you can always pull the cam/rocker cover and coat everything in nice new oil.

I once started an old Honda Accord engine that had been full of water... there was rust in the bores, but we just WD40'ed them and started it up. We didn't expect that engine to last more than a month, but 100,000 kms later it was still running fine, no smoke, no drama. It all comes down to the quality of metal used in the bores and rings.

Another engine I had was the BMW 3.5 litre six (the chain-driven one used in the E34). I had to do the head after it sprung a leak and overheated... when I pulled the head, the bores still had visible hone marks on them, and that car had over 200,000 kms on it. They reckon those engines will go for over 400,000 kms before they start to show signs of wear. Impressive.

[Wally Mk2]

Thanks 'remoak' & 'tankengine' I didn't want to go too deep with all this but I think GG might now understand what we are trying to talk about here. Filling an engine completely with oil would take an extraordinary effort inc blocking off the exhaust system & the intake manifold/s:-) Just filling the engine 'till oil overflowed out of the filler point only means no more can drain down into the sump, the bores would be mostly M/T.


Wmk2

[The Green Goblin]

Thanks 'remoak' & 'tankengine' I didn't want to go too deep with all this but I think GG might now understand what we are trying to talk about here. Filling an engine completely with oil would take an extraordinary effort inc blocking off the exhaust system & the intake manifold/s:-) Just filling the engine 'till oil overflowed out of the filler point only means no more can drain down into the sump, the bores would be mostly M/T.


Wmk2

The bores do fill with oil.

How do I know? Because I've done it plenty of times. Don't be an armchair expert until you have tried it.

When you remove the spark plugs and turn the engine over, oil pumps out of the spark plug holes with much enthusiasm.

Try it :ok:

[Homesick-Angel]

Fill the fuel tank too.

And fuel can go off as well, but not in three months.

I was reading somewhere (cant find the article now), that unleaded fuel now has a reduced shelf life of only 3 months or so..I imagine it would still be useable, but may run rough as hessian underpants.

[aldee]

I own an early Buell with a high compression 1200cc sportser engine,store it full of fuel as it has a bladder fuel tank
Premium unleaded is flat after 3-4 months,won't fire at all, apparently the volatiles evaporate

[Wally Mk2]

'GG' I'm not going to go head to head with you on this a few others in here have tried to explain it also. Some oil would have found it's way into the cylinders after a long period of time due seepage past the rings (& valve stem seals if the engine was in poor condition) if the block was indeed full of oil (which I might add would be a lot of oil) hence that's what ran out upon plug removal. As I said I'll give you the benefit of the doubt:ok:

Oh & btw I don't need to be an armchair expert as I am a qualified motor mech & have several years of A/C engineering under my belt in a previous life.:ok:

'aldee' yr quite right fuel does go stale & loses a lot of it's calorific value after time.


Wmk2

[remoak]

Yep Wally is right (again). Not a mechanic myself, but have rebuilt lots of motors, and brought quite a few classics back to life.

You only have to think about it for a few seconds... how does the oil get above the pistons? Only two routes... past the rings or past the valve guide seals. The end gaps in the rings of modern engines are pretty tight if the engine is in good nick, so any seepage is going to be minimal. If you are getting a lot of seepage past the rings or valve guide seals, your motor is basically poked!

Petrol does indeed go "off" more quickly these days, although stuff that won't run my somewhat fussy bike, seems to work fine in the old Briggs and Stratton mower... ;)

[r sole]

filling engine and bores with oil :confused: where is she being parked on the bottom of the pacific

[sms777]

All good advice....except for GG.
There is no need to drown the poor engine in oil unless it's parked at the bottom of the Pacific(like someone suggested).
If short term(up to 12 months) just disconnect battery, lock it up and walk away. It will be fine when you return, I have proved to myself many times over the years. For longer term, back off your rocker arms to close all valves so seal all cylinders, wrap up your carby or block throttle body to prevent dust or moisture entering intake and before starting again simply replace all fluids and you are right to go.
As for fuel going off there is a solution.
It's called STA-BIL. It is a fuel stabiliser that restores and refresh your fuel while in storage for up to 12 months at a time by simply adding one bottle (450 ml) to a full tank (65 Litres ) and it will keep away moisture and maintains octane rating while stored and ready to start. Google it!
It works. I use it all the time in my 426 Hemi Challenger that only gets started every 6 months.
:ok:

[oldpinger]

Leave it out of gear and chock the wheels with handbrake off, as I had a car's clutch seize on (rust) and had a lot of fun starting it in gear. Granted it was an old and knackered Cortina:hmm:

[Wally Mk2]

'oldpinger' the old Cortina would be worth something now. Funny how they where worthless after a few years use but now pretty much any car made in the 70's for Eg is worth coin!:)
Oh BTW I had the same stuck clutch problem with an old Honda SL100 motor bike, had to ride it like a mad man in first gear(once I got it started) whilst holding the clutch lever in. When the clutch finally let got the revs near went off the clock!:-)BTW just for the record leaving a car in neutral makes no diff to the clutches position:ok: The clutch plate will still be locked tight against the flywheel & the pressure plate regardless of whether the box is in neutral or in gear.:) The only way you can release the clutch plate is to depress the clutch pedal & hold it there for however long ya want to keep the car in storage. Go check the old Cortina now someone might still be in there with his foot locked on the clutch pedal after all these years!:E

God I'd had hoped I had 4gotten all that motor mech stuff by now..........:sad:

Wmk2

[Connaught]

sell it?

from what i remember of piston engine theory, the oil will come up, past the rings and through the ring gaps, might not be quick, but it will, the gaps cant be that close when its cold


or inhibit like a radial, change oil to inhibiting oil start it, get to temp, get er revin like a bastard and slowly start pourin inhibiting oil down the intake, take fuel out, continue the oil flow until engine stops,(this coats insides of intake and exhaust and cylinders with oil) walk away, comeback, clean plugs, change oil and fire it up



then she smokes like bastard:ok: thats how the firebombers in BC used to store em

[blackhand]

GG. You are of course correct in that oil seeps past the rings, and it does it in a matter of minutes.

Cheers
BH

[Lasiorhinus]

nomorecatering, the showdown will be in Alice Springs at sunrise. It's about halfway between where Wally and the Goblin live. Bring your car. Its not as though you're going to be needing it for a few months anyway.

In the red corner, Captain Wally and his supporters who say it would take a very long time for oil to seep past the seals into the cylinders.

In the blue corner, The Green Goblin and his supporters, who say the cylinders will fill rapidly and easily.

This is clearly the only way to settle this discussion.


If I ever start a band, I think I'll call it Wally and the Goblins...

[remoak]

Depends on the car you bring. From this discussion, it is quite clear that GG owns crappy old cars with stuffed rings, and Wally has quality vehicles with factory tolerances.

Just buy a diesel, that way it will preserve itself... ;)