New security area 1st Floor Gatwick south

[radiosutch]

I see the new security area upstairs is open (2nd June), the thing that worries me is that they now do a scan of my retina before I am allowed through to the baggage Xray/pat down area.
No signs saying they are going to, so no explicit consent requested they just do it. How long is is kept, what for? At no place prior to getting on the plane is there another scanner so it can't be to ensure the right person gets on the right plane.
Very sinister.
Same old way on the ground floor !

[Skipness One Echo]

David Hill a manager at Gatwick South has just explicitly denied to me that such a scanner is even in place! Interesting, are you sure it's not just having your photo taken as per all domestic travel at Gatwick?

Either you're mistaken in what happened or Gatwick's left hand has no idea what the right hand is doing.

[radeng]

Does the retinal scanner have a problem with cataracts? The machines for retinal photography for diabetic retinitis do.

[radiosutch]

The machine asked me to open my eyes wider? If that's not a retinal scan I don't know what is.

The gate is a bit like a ticket gate on the Tube, but has a place to put the boarding pass bar code. Further away, beyond the barrier is vertical piece 6/7 feet high. There is an array of red LEDs that glow but in no way bright enough to be a flash, they stay on rather than flash. Below this there appears to be a lens/camera and below that a video display that told me to open my eyes. The attendant told me to remove my spectacles and move a bit further forward, why if it was a simple photograph.

Nearly at the gate, going through the checkpoint where it used to bring up your photograph on the display when they scanned the bar code put on the board pass (the old existing system) I looked back and it said something like "retinal scan failed". I guess therefore the system was not in full operation as yet.

I wish I'd had the forsight to take a sly photo of the machine.

Half the new security section still had workmen in it but there must have been 30 or so of these machines in place.

I have asked Gatwick and our Data Protection Commissioner to advise me.

Big Brother is watching.

If I were a gambling man, I would say the machines are from ;

MFlow Track (http://www.hrsid.com/mflow-track)

And concidentally they list Gatwick as a client.

[Haven't a clue]

Went through this process last night for the first time. Machine kept on asking me to look at the display, and open my eyes, which I did so. Eventually it told me to seek assistance. That meant going to a second, manned gate where I think they took my photograph. I say that because down in the depths of gates 1-9 there's another machine you have to stand and look at. I expected to fail that test too, but surprisingly it seems I passed. Rather too quickly I thought so I suspect the monitor simply displayed my photo as before. There was a message on the screen saying "Biometric reconciliation complete" which I suspect is management speak for "this is the chap we saw earlier".

Now I am concerned, because I pass through Gatwick almost every week, and, given my total failure to get IRIS to recognise me, it would seem that I will have to try, try, try again until the system asks me to seek assistance. What a total pain.

Why not just an automated photo taker? Well I guess that's not as sexy and simply too cheap to be an acceptable solution.

[Skipness One Echo]

I have asked Gatwick and our Data Protection Commissioner to advise me.
Can you advise what they say? The manager I spoke to absoutely denied to me on the phone that such a system was in place.

[radiosutch]

Of course, I'll post any replies. I expect one from the DPC, not confident about Gatwick though. Time will tell.

The manager you spoke to is simply wrong. My guess on the supplier was right as this has been reported in;

http://www.hrsid.com/images/mediafiles/janes%20airport%20review%20-%20gatwick%20032011.pdf

Iris Recognition (http://www.aoptix.com/iris-recognition)

I rest my case !

[radiosutch]

No response from Gatwick but the local DPC is going to investigate via the UK DPC

More as it comes in.

[radiosutch]

No reply from Gatwick, no surprise there !

No further response from the DPC but I am absolutely confident I will get a reply when their investigations are complete even if they take weeks. Dealt with them before in a professional capacity and they are reliable.

[radiosutch]

A reply !

Not that helpful, as I already guessed it wasn't the UKBA doing it.

The DPC via the UK IC is now going to take this up with 'BAA', however I have pointed out BAA don't own Gatwick now. ;)


RESPONSE BY UKBA

I have tried to provide as much information below. I think the individual is assuming that UKBA check his photo with the one taken by an airport operator when passing through the security check point. This is not the case, below explains the different types of gates that is used at immigration controls across the UK.



Leaving the UK:
When an individual has checked in, they must proceed through the security check point. This process is handled by the airports operator, in this case BAA. I am assuming this would be for security reasons as anyone would expect at an airport. Unfortunately, I am unable to confirm their use, retention and destruction policy for information gathered at this security point. No information regarding this check point is passed to UKBA for our immigration function.



Entering the UK.
Our officers scan passports and cross-check passenger details to make sure only those people who have the right to enter the UK are allowed to do so. The Agency is always seeking new and quicker ways of allowing those with the right to enter the United Kingdom to pass through immigration control quicker and easier. Two of these initiatives are the IRIS and e-passport gates.



IRIS is a voluntary scheme where UK, EEA & Swiss nationals can register. IRIS makes use of the fact that the pattern of the iris in each person's eye (the coloured part of the eye) is unique. This enables a person to be identified simply by looking into a special camera at the IRIS barrier located in the immigration arrival hall. More details regarding the IRIS scheme can be found on UKBA's website. http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/travellingtotheuk/Enteringtheuk/usingiris/ (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/travellingtotheuk/Enteringtheuk/usingiris/)



e-passport gates uses facial recognition technology to compare your face to the photograph recorded on the 'chip' in your passport. Again, UK, EEA & Swiss nationals can use the gates provided their passport has a 'chip' logo on the front of their passport. You must also be aged 18 or over, unless otherwise stated on airport signs. Once the checks are made, the gates will open automatically for you to go through. More information regarding e-passport gates can be found on UKBA's website http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/travellingtotheuk/Enteringtheuk/e-passport-gates/ (http://www.ukba.homeoffice.gov.uk/travellingtotheuk/Enteringtheuk/e-passport-gates/)



Both of these schemes are ways to speed up the passengers experience when travelling through immigration control. The same checks will be completed at the gates as would be should the individual present themselves to an Immigration Officer at the desk. No additional checks are competed at the gates.



I hope that this is helpful

[Dawdler]

Hmm Interesting this....

When I renewed my passport, I had several photographs rejected "as the computer could not recognise your eyes" Eventually I had to have a photograph taken without my spectacles (which I wear all the time), before the passport office announced themselves satisfied. Interestingly my photo on my driving licence (I thought they shared information with the passport office) has me with my glasses in place.

With regard to airports photographing travellers, I thought they did this all the time! I first became aware of it some years ago at Bristol, when at the gate I saw a photograph of me that clearly had been taken without my knowledge at check in. My assumption has been since, that every time I have travelled by air I have passed through a similiar procedure. BTW I have yet to see the automatic passport readers at Birmingham actually in operation. Such expense not being used and not enough desks being manned seem now to be the norm at Birmingham.

[ross_M]

having your photo taken as per all domestic travel at Gatwick?


They photograph you for domestic travel too these days? Strange!

[hellsbrink]

The machine asked me to open my eyes wider? If that's not a retinal scan I don't know what is.

So you stand in front of the machine and it takes a pic of your face? that ain't a retinal scan of any kind, it's a biometric pic. Why ask about the eyes? The iris of your eye is as unique to you as your fingerprints so by making sure they get a clear shot of both eyes they can be sure the next machine "recognises" you.

What you are experiencing is more likely to be an Iris Scan, not a Retina Scan, as stated in the "unhelpful" reply you got.

Dawdler.

Your passport will be a "biometric" one. One "biometric" used is the size of your eyes and the distance apart they are (again, unique to the person). Glasses distort that, so that is why the instructions that come with the passport form state that glasses are NOT to be worn in the picture you use for your passport.

[radiosutch]

An update from Gatwick !
I may have been rather loose in my use of technical terms for which I apologise. I don't know if it is iris or retinal scanning but either way it's biometric data that can be stored for any (nefarious?) purposes.

"

Thank you for your recent email.

Firstly may I apologise for the delay in responding to you. This was due to some recent changes in the structure of our customers services team.

Gatwick operates a common user travel area where both domestic and international departing passengers are able to mix. To meet with UKBA regulations and the reconciliation of domestic passengers arriving at the departure gate a simple biometric system is in place that captures domestic passengers iris details.

Previously we operated a photographic system that enabled a similar facial reconciliation process. Both the systems are programmed, such that no data is retained after the flights arrival.

Please do not hesitate to contact me should you have any further concerns.

Yours sincerely,

Andrew Murray
Security Regulation Manager
www.gatwickairport.com (http://www.gatwickairport.com/)

[Skipness One Echo]

So the commercial company that owns LGW now has our Iris scans and promises not to lose them? Hmmm not happy about this, BAA got stung with fingerprints at T5.

[Haven't a clue]

For recent trips through LGW South I still have to be patient until the boarding pass scanner decides it has captured what it wants and lets me through to the security scanning area. However I have had no problems getting through the secondary check down in the pier by gate 4 (other than the huge queues the new machine seems to have created). In fact it doesn't even ask me to "Look Here" any more. So I snuck a quick peek at the operator's screen last time and saw a huge banner "Biometric Reconciliation Complete" message with a photograph of me on the right hand side.

I am thus wondering whether they have furtively gone back to using photographs having fallen foul of some Data Protection rule; something that other posters have suggested may well be possible?

[PAXboy]

Skipness One EchoSo the commercial company that owns LGW now has our Iris scans and promises not to lose them?
Technically - they ARE promising to lose them!!

They say that, when the flight arrives at destination - they will delete the data. Probably, they should say "n hours after arrival and we know that there are no problems with pax on that flight"

The questions is, WHEN do they delete and DO they delete? To save them the trouble of replying, the answers are:
1) Immediately
2) Always.
! :rolleyes:

[ImPlaneCrazy]

I don't understand the big fuss about all of this, at the end of the day if it enables airport security to be improved in any manner then this should be embraced with open arms. Even if Gatwick did keep your information for a prolonged period of time, what do you think they are going to do with it? And even in the worst case scenario! Some 'group' gets hold of a picture of your face, what are they seriously going to do with it. If they were able to clone your passport (impossible without accompanying APIS data anyway...), you are the innocent party and you have nothing to worry about.

You'll notice that security at the departure gates use this image to ensure that the same pax that had the photo taken is the same one that is at the gate.

Just relax, if you live your life that security conscious then I'm sure you live a very restrictive lifestyle. :ok:

[Haven't a clue]

ImPlaneCrazy - we all understand the photograph process; it's been used for several years. The photograph system started before barcoded boarding passes appeared, and involved generating a barcode digitally attached to a stored image and physically attached to your boarding card. Assurances were given that the images would be deleted within 24 hours. That process is still in use for domestic arrivals at Gatwick South, and the barcode is stuck to a piece of paper with this assurance printed on the reverse.

I have yet to see any notice to the travelling public spelling out what Gatwick are doing with these new scanners.

It's the capture of a unique biometric identifier by a private company which concerns me. There is the possibility (indeed the probability) that other personal information is captured from the 2D barcode on the boarding pass which contains the passenger name, flight number etc and that might make the identifier data into a valuable commodity. I would hope that our data protection laws are strong enough to prevent misuse, but my experience with other organisations who quietly accumulate data on their customers suggests otherwise.

Do you really want to find you are offered say personalised advertising or worse based on your travel activity? Look at the tracking organisations already do based on your computer browsing, and often without your knowledge (it's on page 72 of our terms and conditions, sir)? It will happen.

The reason though we have this dreadful process is because the airports want to corral us into one great shopping mall for their own convenience, and understandably the UKBA want to ensure that no one uses that as an opportunity to gain entry into the UK without having a little chat with them first. Perhaps the UKBA should put their foot down and refuse to accept this mixing of domestic and international pax. That was how T1 worked at LHR. Frankly as a frequent traveller I would be happy to spend my waiting time in a separate domestic lounge and avoid the chaos that is international departures. But I'd like to have a Starbucks or Pret in that lounge too....

[Beer_n_Tabs]

Must say, I agree with ImPlaneCrazy

Haven't a clue......

http://images.memegenerator.net/instances/500x/9093511.jpg

[Haven't a clue]

Perhaps it's an age thing; as I head towards a bus pass I have seen things which were not acceptable become so. Some good changes - drink driving intolerance for example - but some bad ones and the surveillance state comes high on my list plus constant unwanted intrusions into my privacy by corporate marketing.

But yeah. This dude will chill. Off 6000 miles to the east tonight for some R&R. Will that do?

[Skipness One Echo]

It's what larger organisations do, they **** money up the wall at the sight of shiny new tech. What does it do that the old one doesn't? Well it costs a lot more and takes longer and generates longer queues and delays entry to security.

On the plus side, the one guy who looks like me and is dressed identically who pitches up at Gatwick on the same day I am flying domestic might just get caught.

It's not rocket science to see if the person in the photo taken no more than 2 hours before looks a little different to have a wee chat? Quite why that needs a multi million pound investment is beyond me, perhaps LGW think they're staff are really that thick or is there a racial element in here that dare not raise it's head and the machine can get the blame?

[surely not]

Oh no that means Mrs Sn will take longer applying her make up on the basis she will want to look good for the camera!!

[PAXboy]

SOEQuite why that needs a multi million pound investment is beyond me

Because it looks like they are doing something.
It shows activity aimed at solving the problem.
By the time the problem is proved not to have been solved - the people who bought the equipment will be somewhere else.
The people who are left will be able to say that the company 'did all that they could and installed special apparatus. Next question please.'
Oh yes, and that it wasn't their fault.
They will then order more equipment and procedures that, by the time they are proved not ...

This is the same in 99% of the companies that I have seen or worked at across the 35 years of my adult life. But the speed of this kind of thing is increasing and the reasons for that are (I contend):


The UK has largely taken on the US idea that 'technology' can fix it.
We have had many discussions in this forum about how El Al uses intensive manual labour to screen pax and everyone else tries to do it with cheaper technology. One method has been shown to be consistently more successful, the more so that the airline in question is the one that is a favourite target.
As 'managers' understand far less about the company these days (on account of not having worked their way up) they like to rely on technology and other bolt-ons to make up for the expertise that they like.
It's easier to put in the press releases and annual report that you have spent millions on a 'system' than on hiring good people and training them and retaining them across 20 years to build up knowledge. That takes real money and real leadership and real brains.
Another example of this is H.R. departments using personality tests (Psychometric testing) that are judged entirely by algorithm and computer. Since no human made a decision = no human can be blamed. [Myers Briggs and Brainbench]

Much of this could also be posted in the 'Sterile Area at MAN' thread. When the system is breached, there is an inquiry and the statement 'We must make sure that this doesn't happen again'. Which it won't Next time, it will be a different breach!

[Skipness One Echo]

Reply from the IOC office below


Case Reference Number xxxx

Dear Mr xxxx

I am writing further to Ms Thompson’s acknowledgement dated 19 August 2011. I apologise for the delay in responding to you. My colleagues in our Strategic Liaison Department have visited Gatwick Airport, and have looked into this issue.

The Home Office have issued a written notice in accordance with Schedule 2 Paragraph 26(3) of the Immigration Act 1971. This states that the common departure lounge at Gatwick Airport must be secured to prevent international transiting passengers from breaching UK border security controls by exchanging boarding passes with a passenger on a domestic flight. Gatwick Airport must use biometric systems on the entrance and exit of the common departure lounge.

Having consulted with Gatwick Airport Limited, they have assured this office that the Iris scan information is only retained for 24 hours (and is retained for this period in case an incident were to occur). They have produced a page on their website to explain the process to customers, and they have assured us they will undertake staff training to ensure airport staff are aware of why the process has been introduced and how long the information is retained.

In light of the above we are satisfied that the above is in accordance with the Data Protection Act 1998, but would thank you for bringing it to our attention.

I hope this information is helpful.

Yours sincerely


Just for the avoidance of doubt, correct me if I am wrong in saying Gatwick North and Heathrow T1 and T5 are non biometric. Typical of the Home Office to insist on an overcomplex multi million pound system when a photo works in all instances where the identical twin with identical clothing is not involved. Makes me glad I pay tax to let these fools **** money up the wall.