Gallantry Awards

[Piggies]

Watching the BBC news right now, it strikes me that there are many soldiers in Afghanistan that are performing astonishing acts of bravery, and rightly being decoratedfor them.

My question is however, without wishing to denigrate the gallantry of earlier generations;

Is the System (ie the Government or the military authorities) being parsimonious with the awards of gallantry medals, in particular the VC?

Or is the reporting of such acts soon after they occur resorting to hyperbole that doesn't match the realities of what actually happened?

I'm inclined to suspect the former.

[jindabyne]

Please explain WTF, in plainer language, you are getting at ----

[Piggies]

I mean that there are MC and CGM rightly being awarded, but to read the stories in the news (and indeed on the MODs website), there are astonishing acts being performed, with claims that match or even supersede (sp?) actions fought in Korea, WWII etc.

Or am I just being a bit thick?

[500N]

As I understand it, he is saying is the Gov't being stingy, frugal with awards like the VC.


Hasn't that always been the case ? (with the VC ?).

[Piggies]

What I'm writing is that there has been only one publicly gazetted award for Iraq and Afghanistan. There were many awards in earlier conflicts. Is it parsimony, or due to the smaller numbers of soldiers that are actually engaging the enemy in these modern conflicts?

[muppetofthenorth]

I remember someone saying that in order to seem suitably highest award-worthy that any act had to supercede those that had gone before.

[Kreuger flap]

I was awarded the QJM for being at work. You have to be brave to work where I do.:)

[cazatou]

Piggies

The VC was instituted in the Crimean War in 1856 and during the subsequent 150 years (which included the Boer War, WW1 & WW2 as well as Korea and numerous other minor skirmishes) some 1355 VC's were awarded. That is an average of 9 per year.

[Sloppy Link]

Piggies,
There have been two VCs awarded over the recent Afghan/Iraq campaigns, you are doing one of them a disservice.
Statistically, that is a 100% increase on your statement but it does not detract from the overall statement of an apparent lack of this level of recognition. As an aside, I would be interested to see the statistics of the amount of troops in theatre vs awards from previous campaigns.

[Tankertrashnav]

Sloppy - as a partial answer to your question, during World War Two at least 10,000,000 UK, Commonwealth and Empire soldiers, sailors and airmen served at some stage over the (almost ) six years of the war. A total of 182 VCs were awarded for the years 1939-45. That makes an average of 30 per year, or very approximately 1 per 330,000 men mobilised per year. Taking into account the far smaller numbers of troops currently in Afghanistan, I dont think that there is any question of the VC being awarded more sparingly than previously.

Incidentally, in the period 1946-69 only 9 awards were made, a period which included the Korean War and conflicts in Palestine, Cyprus, Malaya, Suez, Aden, Kenya and Borneo.

[NutLoose]

Actually, you want to read this months Britain at War magazine covering some of the VC's never awarded during the 2nd world war.......

Some of them were eye openers... one covered was a pilot whose aircraft was hit and a large white hot lump of metal jammed by his rudder pedals, one of the crew tried to dislodge it, but was unable to, eventually it set fire to the aircraft and the pilots legs and boots, one of the crew heard the pilot call for them to abandon the aircraft and looking back upon hearing the order saw the pilot was totally engulfed from head to foot in fire still holding the aircraft steady so his crew could abandon it..
It was denied if i remember correctly because someone deemed he was doing his job!!!!!!!!!!!! Me, I would have given him a VC, that is well above and beyond.

Another was deferred until his captive crew would be released at the end of the war, but wasn't followed up on...... will copy parts of the article if you want to read it.......

Australia is relooking at some that were put fwd for VC's to re-assess their cases, one thinks the UK should do similar.

See

http://www.defence-honours-tribunal.gov.au/Websites/dhat/Images/documents/Valour_Terms%20of%20Reference.pdf

[Sloppy Link]

TTN,
Thank you, from that it appears the ratio is about right from a pure statistical view. Of course, statistics are completely impersonal which is probably what led to the initial post.

[xenolith]

I once took on several Carrickfergus Commandoes and felt sure that I had a VC (or similar). Alas, it appears that the deed had to be witnessed by an officer.

[Whenurhappy]

Unfortunately reviewing past deeds might prove to be a bit uncomfortable. I've just finished reading TE Lawrence's 'Victory in the Desert'. He did some insanely brave things, but some of his other actions - eg ordering no prisoners to be taken - would amount to a war crime. Revisionist history is a pastime of dull socialist academics.

[NutLoose]

I see where you are coming from and there are objections to it happening in Aus, but where in the case of the one defered until post war, perhaps that should be put to bed so to speak either one way or the other..

[xenolith]

Australia is relooking at some that were put fwd for VC's to re-assess their cases, one thinks the UK should do similar.



It would appear that 'Nutloose' is doing his famous jumping on the bandwagon act again.
Surely if we start looking at the substance of higher end awards the floodgates could be opened for ALL awards thereby bringing the 'quota' system into sharp focus.

Somebody is not thinking this through.

[Piggies]

Sloppy / TTN,

Thanks for your replies. My mistake, I meant to write one each in IZ/AFG.

TTN's statistics show that I was wrong, so 'Mea Culpa' etc. However, I still suspect that the MOD pushes out Press releases after actions that are not subsequently borne out by Op Award announcements. Why would they do that?:rolleyes:

I'm inclined to think the statistics suggests that there is some objectivity to the process, which is probably a good thing.

As far as reviewing old citations, not sure about that. I've served on some fine former Bomber Command Squadrons (two of which both sank some boat in Norway) and fully support the memorial to be built in Green Park, but whilst I agree that the failure to award a campaign medal to Bomber Command aircrew was utterly wrong (and that many of those 'shot at dawn' in WWI were victims of gross injustice), I think there has to be a line drawn somewhere on mistakes made in the past. Otherwise, where would it stop? Should we seek compo from Italy for invading us in 43?

[500N]

Nutloose

The Australia situation was pushed along because of well known recent conflicts battles still in living memory (Long Tan) - where it was well known that various politics got in the way of the proper medals being awarded to both the soldiers / officers of D Coy and the Iroquois pilots who did the re supply

This and others (one well known one being Simpson and his donkey at Gallipoli) have spurred the whole thing along.

Not sure where it will end but at least D Coy / Iroquois pilots have now got some of the right medals.

.

[NutLoose]

Quote:
Australia is relooking at some that were put fwd for VC's to re-assess their cases, one thinks the UK should do similar.


It would appear that 'Nutloose' is doing his famous jumping on the bandwagon act again.
Surely if we start looking at the substance of higher end awards the floodgates could be opened for ALL awards thereby bringing the 'quota' system into sharp focus.

Somebody is not thinking this through.

If you read my follow on post, you would see I was not refering to the ones that were refused on someones say so, simply the one that had been put on hold till a later date where all parties agreed that more information was needed and would be available, then forgotten after hostilities ended........ hence

I see where you are coming from and there are objections to it happening in Aus, but where in the case of the one defered until post war, perhaps that should be put to bed so to speak either one way or the other..

Not jumping on any bandwagon.

I once took on several Carrickfergus Commandoes

Pah. the Rhonda Valley Commandos would have them for lunch....;)

[SASless]

30 to 1 odds....fought till out of ammunition...out of grenades....resorted to using a club on one attacker....and not awarded a Victoria Cross!

Can anyone explain why this particular Soldier did not earn a VC?

In my view he certainly deserves the award!


Queen decorates Nepali for Afghanistan heroics - Yahoo! News (http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20110602/wl_uk_afp/britainmilitaryafghanistannepalaward)

[Dengue_Dude]

Taliban tend not to act as witnesses for heroes.

Wondered why not a VC myself . . .

Since I wasn't there (thank God), I'll just continue to wonder.

[cazatou]

SASless

I think the answer is that the Coalition inherited the War and they don't know what to do with it. They are not going to provide the resources to make a really significant difference to the status quo - but they do not feel that they can "pull out" with any dignity. The last thing they want is a Brave Soldier with a VC on the front pages of every newspaper in the land.

[500N]

"The last thing they want is a Brave Soldier with a VC on the front pages of every newspaper in the land."

Pretty piss poor reason.


The criteria for the VC are laid down and go up through the committees.
The above does seem to fall in line with the other VC that was awarded in Iraq.

[Trim Stab]

Corporal Pun gives the reason himself:

"There wasn't any choice but to fight."

If he had had the option to flee or surrender, but had carried on regardless, I expect the award would have been VC.

[sycamore]

It may be that the MOD/Govt. don`t want to raise the Gurkha profile too much, as a lot are for the redundancies round,probably a disproportionate number...

[uffington sb]

But why was he alone in the checkpoint?

[Chugalug2]

If a VC is not awarded on the sole basis of the individual's deeds then it tells us more about those who decide such matters than it does of the person, and sullies what is supposed to be unsullied. Whatever their decision Cpl Pun's courage is beyond dispute and leaves me in awe of his bravery just as it did of his VC namesake. Bravest of the brave!

[500N]

"But why was he alone in the checkpoint?"
That was a question I also had but it seems he was not alone, 3 others were inside and he was on the roof.

In addition, 30 attackers using MG's and RPG's would have made quite a noise, and why did the 3 inside the checkpoint not come out ? Seems strange.

From some media web site
"On the roof Acting Sgt Pun was on sentry duty at a checkpoint near Babaji, in Afghanistan's Helmand province, on 17 September last year when he spotted insurgents trying to plant a bomb beside the front gate. Moments later, militants opened fire on the compound from all sides.
For more than a quarter of an hour, alone on the roof, Acting Sgt Pun fought off an onslaught from rocket-propelled grenades and AK-47s.
In total, he fired more than 400 rounds, launched 17 grenades and detonated a mine.
At one point, when an insurgent tried to climb up to his position, his rifle failed and he resorted to throwing his machine gun tripod to knock him down.
Acting Sgt Pun, who is originally from the Nepalese village of Bima, believed at the time that there were more than 30 attackers."




"The citation on his medal - which is only one level below the Victoria Cross - states that he saved the lives of three comrades who were inside the checkpoint at the time."


.

[TBM-Legend]

PC = no VC in my opinion.

The shiny bums can't be seen giving out too many.

This man was very very brave from all reports and equal to any VC...

[Really annoyed]

Its time for another pprune campaign and much letter writing to your local MP.:hmm:

[Tankertrashnav]

http://www.pprune.org/military-aircrew/453311-gallantry-awards.html

TBM Legend Have a read through this thread. If you look at my post (#10) comparing the numbers of VCs awarded during WW2 with the numbers being awarded in recent years, you will find that pro rata there is no decrease in the number of VCs being awarded by the "shiny bums". The fact is that Acting Sergeant Pun has been awarded the Conspicuous Gallantry Cross, a very rare award, and can be immensely proud of that fact.

[Double Zero]

Sounds like a VC to me !

More to the point, are he and his comrades going to be allowed to live in UK; if we can fund Wayne & Stacey 'avin a fag' on the dole lining up for burgers we can surely make room for people who have done so much for UK Ltd...

[SASless]

I fear politics might have gotten in the way oif objectivity on this one.....no matter....this Young Man justly earned the award he received and is worthy of our respect and admiration.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Between SASless and Double zero is the important factor:

He, absolutely, deserves his award and it is, I believe, appropriate, (he said himself it was "fight or die")*. The bigger question is the one put forth by Double Zero. Can we find room in our ex-great country for a man like this or will his place be taken by some useless waster that will end up sucking the life out of the producing members of British society while, at the same time, hurling insults at our returning soldiers that give him the right to hurl insults at our returning soldiers?

* Not to denigrate in any way what this man did... Balls out all the way... Absolute respect to the man... http://www.hqrafregiment.net/images/smilies/worthy.gifhttp://www.hqrafregiment.net/posting.php?mode=post&f=4#

[Landroger]

I hope they promulgate (is that the right word?) his third stripe. What a warrior. :)

Roger.

[sled dog]

I managed (almost) to avoid the "Night Fighters" in Mombasa :E
Great det.

[tarantonight]

I fully agree with SASless..........and wonder where the original post has gone BTW, can't find it anywhere. Somebody getting jittery??

It sounds like Corporal Pun has answered all of the questions needed to have that Bronze Cross hanging on his chest. I am a descendant of a VC Holder, and as hugely proud as I am, Cpl Pun's action seems to take it up a level.

I wonder if the passage of time has had an effect on expectation and appreciation??

The lack of witnesses has been mentioned and this may well be the issue.:ugh:

[PPRuNe Pop]

No. Two threads on the same subject will usually always be merged - as in this case.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Hey Mods...

I'd say the deliberate use of the "s" word in direct contravention of the recently reiterated language guidelines that our resident annoyance was clearly aware of by his participation in discussion about said guidelines at the time warrants a weeks ban don't you? :ok:

It certainly would in any of the forums I own...

[hanoijane]

I love this forum. Where else could you watch as a thread discussing the courage of one man degenerates into a slanging match between some armchair warriors fragile egos?

It's wonderfully British.

[cazatou]

hanoijane

I don't think that there is anything remotely fragile in respect of some of the ego's on these threads.

[tarantonight]

Thanks Mods...and noted.

TN.

[hanoijane]

*blinks*

Using the word 's**t' gets a post removed, yet calling someone a 'gold plated knob' is left for all to see?

Sorry, moderator, but if I decided to write - which I haven't, I'm just asking - that phrase as a comment on your moderating, would you be happy? No, I thought not. So why is it still there?

[500N]

hanoijane

The difference is / could be, s--t only has one crude meaning but a knob is can be "an obnoxious person" as well as having other meanings.

[Airborne Aircrew]

Jane:

Stick to knitting sweetheart... Oh, and make us all a cuppa while you're at it, there's a love... :E

[minigundiplomat]

Jane,

Ive deleted the offending thread...just for you!

[Airborne Aircrew]

Standard NATO my dear... ;)

[Piggies]

Well,

Thanks all for dragging the thread down.

It will be interesting to see what (if any) awards come out of the current Libyan unpleasantness.

[Tankertrashnav]

Piggies - I totally agree and sympathise. What started out as a serious enquiry worthy of discussion just generated into childish schoolyard name-calling.

I only hope that Acting Sergeant Pun, CGC doesnt read PPRuNe :*

Re Libya, bound to be the odd DFC I'd have thought, particularly now the Apaches have gone in

[glojo]

"""If he had had the option to flee or surrender, but had carried on regardless, I expect the award would have been VC."""

My thoughts are that there has always been EXCEPTIONALLY brave deeds that have either never got recorded, or..... The reporting officer might not describe the action in a manner worthy of the actual deed.

Regarding this specific example, I fear folks are arguing over semantics and if this is truly the reason why the highest award was not given then shame on all those involved. It is daft and a play on words, let the deed do the talking. If the deed warrants the medal, they should get the medal.

It has also been suggested that our brave special forces personnel are always performing dangerous deeds and the bar is that much higher for those involved?? I just hope that this is your typical rumour mill spin.