G-ATDB

[popstar]

Do any of you knowledgable chaps know how a mere mortal goes about finding out what has happened to an aircraft.
The above Nord 1101 was removed from storage and re registered to a new 'keeper' without the consent of the owner, my late brother in law, many years ago!!
What would be a fair rent for the use (flying or not) for such an aircraft over a period of, say, 10 years? Any barrack room, air law savvy, lawyers have any ideas for getting it back or for getting recompense after this time assuming the present keeper can be found ?

[VictorGolf]

You might have already looked at G-INFO, the CAA registration database, which shows all the ownership changes for your aircraft. Interestingly it has only recently been "permanently withdrawn from use". which sounds a bit terminal. As to the hire charges I'm sure one of the site legal beagles will be along shortly.

[wsmempson]

G-info link as below.

GINFO Registration History | Aircraft Register | Safety Regulation (http://www.caa.co.uk/application.aspx?catid=60&pagetype=65&appid=1&mode=reg&fullregmark=ATDB)

[maxred]

I might be wrong, but I think the very one is sitting in a hanger at Perth.

Last seen with prop off, and engine being worked on. It turned up a few years ago:cool:

[10W]

Nord (http://www.pprune.org/archive/index.php/t-221303.html)

The thread in this link is a few years old, but it appears it was used in a rebuild. Not sure if the fuselage is still at Prestwick or not.

['India-Mike]

There's a green Nord fuselage sitting on its tail tucked into a corner of Apron E. No markings. I thought it looked as airworthy as some of the other sh!t sitting round there:E

[popstar]

Wow - fast response!
Thanks guys - that will give my nieces lawyer something to get onto now we have a name and address. She could only remember that it was 'an artist' who promised payment then apparently re-registered the aircraft in his name without paying for it.
It may be too late to do anything legaly now - but then there are always 'the boys' who can visit the fly man and suggest he pays up!
Thanks again, especially for the register link - why didn't I think of that?

[popstar]

Another, perhaps naive question!
Can an aircraft be registered to a different (new) owner without a bill of sale or any other legal document?

[maxred]

I would doubt it. From memory I think there is a section at the back of the reg doc that has to be completed by the original registered owner - ie transfer.

Someone may be a long in a minute who will give the exact judgement.

[dont overfil]

Checked my photos of the Nord at Perth but they don't show the reg.
Sorry I don't know how to post a photo.
It had a mottled grey blue quasi military colour scheme. It disappeared several months ago. Def not airworthy.
D.O.
Ps yes.

[Sir George Cayley]

Air Britain has this photo

Nord N.1101 Noralpha, G-ATDB, Private (http://www.abpic.co.uk/photo/1285362/)

And Airliners have this sad one

Photos: Nord 1101 Noralpha Aircraft Pictures | Airliners.net (http://www.airliners.net/photo/Nord-1101-Noralpha/1186909/&sid=be9dc12b1b060d348e8ed83404ac1ee8)

Hope this helps

Sir George Cayley

[xrayalpha]

Popstar,

I wouldn't waste good money.

The original owner has to keep their contact details up-to-date by law.

When aircraft registration is transferred, usually the new and old owners fill in the back of the registration document. However, it is not unknown that this is missing etc etc.

In that case, the CAA write to the registered owner and lets them know someone is trying to change details. They sometimes, nowadays, follow this up with a phone call.

So.

First, why did original owner not respond to CAA requests. If they didn't, then some sort of statute of limitations must apply. Not sure if it is the short or long one.

I take it someone noticed they didn't "own" the aircraft anymore. If it was in their farm shed, they might have spotted it wasn't there. If it was on an airfield, they might have noticed no parking or hangerage charges.

If you "own" it, maybe you are responsible for 10 years parking!

And if no paperwork to prove sale price, loan agreement (you can use it as long as you pay the costs etc) or "gift", then who knows what has happened.

Not worth the candle, I'd say.

I know the statute on unacknowleged debts is seven years, if that is a help. Land is 10/12 years.

[xrayalpha]

Notice it and G-BSMD - the one restored and back in the air a few years ago - are/were registered to the same person.

Looks as though it might be a bit difficult to trace which bits of which are now in the airworthy one without looking at the logbooks.

And, knowing the reason for the request, the owner might be reluctant...

And, of course, it must be added, the registered keeper may not be "the artist" you refer to, and may have bought in good faith.

[Final 3 Greens]

xrayalpha

Putting the statue of limitations to one side, for the sake of argument, why would the current owner buying the aircraft in good faith have any bearing on the title?

[xrayalpha]

F3G,

Well, until 1995 there were Marche Ouverts in England, at least, where stuff bought in good faith acquired proper title. Highly unlikely that an entire aircraft would be offered there (!), but radio, comms, spares etc might have been?

Marché ouvert - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/March%C3%A9_ouvert)

More particularly, just wanted to make it clear that I am not suggesting in any way that the current owner is "the artist".

[popstar]

The original owner has to keep their contact details up-to-date by law.
The plot thickens!
The hand written Register entry quotes the correct address but the GINFO Registration History magically moves the postal town from Lanark to Gwent - not surprising then that the registered owner could not be traced!

[billiboing]

was a friend of Maurice Kirk the vet, and I know several of Maurices aircraft were registered to John Jackson, and another to Mr M Jackson, amongst other names.

Dont know if anyone here has come across the flying vet. Damn good stick but a bit of a habit of upsetting the local police! ( I think this is a nice way of putting it)

[maxred]

The Nord 1101 at Perth is G-BSMD. The registered owner is the same individual who was registered as owning G-ATDB. I am not Sherlock Holmes, however, it would be a co-incidence if G-BSMD, is not G-ATDB, and vice versa. I also know that the owner is 'the artist'.:\

[BLEED-AIR]

Google reveals this link
SON'S MEMORIAL FLIGHT TO HONOUR HIS FATHER - Local Headlines - Fife Today (http://www.fifetoday.co.uk/news/local-headlines/son_s_memorial_flight_to_honour_his_father_1_145530?action=l ogout):ok: