Moorabbin - does this seem a bit thin?

[Howabout]

Investigation Number:AO-2008-059 from the ATSB - Investigation: AO-2008-059 - Midair collision (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2008/aair/ao-2008-059.aspx)

I may be missing something, but the 'Final Report' states that: In the time leading up to the collision, the air traffic controller workload had been high and relevant traffic information was not issued to the pilots in sufficient time to assist self‑separation.I hesitate to question, but this seems to be a blanket condemnation of the controller, albeit with a couple of caveats. Admittedly, I'm not good at navigating around, but can't find the basis for what appears to be a harsh conclusion with no supporting evidence.

My concern is for the poor bloke who's probably been sweating this for close to three years - now we have this.

Does anyone have some reference (ATSB?) that supports this particular conclusion.

[bentleg]

I too sympathise with the controller, quite likely overworked.

can't find the basis for what appears to be a harsh conclusion with no supporting evidence

ATC is supposed to advise pilots of traffic so they can arrange their own separation. In this case there was heaps of traffic, but he did not advise them, and the collision happened a minute later. The instructor (and student) was aware there was traffic (from the radio) but was not told where to look.

Not being a MMB local, why don't they bring inward traffic in at 1500 AGL and make departues leave at 1000 AGL? Would remove the conflict IMHO.

[Howabout]

Bent,

Thanks for the reply as regards: ATC is supposed to advise pilots of traffic so they can arrange their own separation. In this case there was heaps of traffic, but he did not advise them, and the collision happened a minute later. The instructor (and student) was aware there was traffic (from the radio) but was not told where to look.

My question goes to the solid evidence that this was, indeed, the case - see bold.

I am not having a swipe at you, or anyone else that wants to comment; but I think that if that criticism is going to be levelled at the guy on the end of the mic, then surely there should be corroborating justification (on the website) as to the assertion that his performance was 'deficient'.

Maybe I am missing something in respect of 'due process'.

[Sunfish]

No, the report isn't "a bit thin".

If anything, the report is too harsh on the controller and not harsh enough on AsA.

I've regularly been in the circuit at YMMB both before and after the date of the accident and the controllers have to work their backsides off; you can hear it in their voices sometimes.

They are especially busy when the bigger schools start a new class and all of a sudden you have four or Five aircraft with students flying circuits for the first time, often not that familiar with voice procedure and a bit of an accent. Add in a Third solo and a couple of arriving aircraft, say one asking for circuits on arrival and another asking for a glide approach, then perhaps an IFR departure and it can get very busy very quickly with no warning. That is why you now have to ask for start clearance for the circuit these days.

I've heard a controller say "which Cessna are you? Waggle your wings!" when a tongue tied student can't explain which Cessna he is (turning downwind, early downwind, mid downwind, late downwind, etc.) I've also heard a controller chastise a student who independently decided that instead of going around, he would try an orbit on final to get better separation.

When I start to hear the controllers loading up like that I do a full stop to avoid adding to their workload - which is still substantial today with class D.

Go easy on the controllers they do a fantastic job, it's AsA who should have been looking at the increasing workload on their staff because since in 2008 the whole overseas student thing was in full swing at YMMB and the workload had increased considerably. AsA should have been proactive, not reactive.


P.S. The pilot of UPY isn't and won't be the only one to confuse 31L and 35L, I did it as a student pilot by following a Metroliner on final as instructed by the tower, only the Metroliner mistakenly landed on 31 instead of 35, fortunately without incident. The controllers warned me off in time. I think the pilot had tea and bikkies with the controllers after that.

[VH-XXX]

Remember, didn't Class D and circuit number limits come about shortly after this crash?

A conclusion could be inferred that they realised the controller / process / ATC was partly at fault and they took measures to correct the situation, quite quickly in fact.

[bentleg]

then surely there should be corroborating justification (on the website)

there are timings in Appendix A extracted from recordings. What other justification would you expect? I think they justify -

1. he did not advise traffic

2. he was overloaded.

[Howabout]

Thanks Bent,

As I said, I'm not good on computer stuff. I will follow your guide.

Sunfish:

If anything, the report is too harsh on the controller and not harsh enough on AsA.

It was never my intent to question the controller. My point was that he's been hammered with no (apparent) justification. That said Bent - I'll try and locate and read the appendix.

[mickk]

The media is all over the "overworked controllers" theme, prepare yourselves for the mornings paper. The anti airport mob are frothing at the mouth and will get plenty of coverage.

[Clearedtoreenter]

Does it matter? Class D (or formerly GAAP) controllers give sequence and are not responsible for separation. That is purely a matter for the pilot(s) involved. Had a Citation right up my bum in a 172 on downwind the other day... how he stayed behind is beyond me but whatever, separation is not a matter for the controller. No-ones fault, just a stupid system, just asking for same to happen again, especially when everyone is inexperienced, busy or distracted....

[bentleg]

No-ones fault, just a stupid system, just asking for same to happen again, especially when everyone is inexperienced, busy or distracted....

Agree.

If you bring incoming traffic into a higher circuit above outgoing traffic, the conflict that caused this accident is removed. Incoming 1500 AGL, outgoing 1000 AGL. Descent to 1000 AGL is allowed by the controller when he sees space. It's done at other Class D, why not at Moorabbin? Perhaps there is a reason, I'd like to hear it.

(I note in ERSA departures are supposed to climb to 2000 or higher, to separate them from arrivals. This doesn't remove the conflict when arrivals at 1000 AGL join a busy circuit at the same altitude, which happened here).

[b_sta]

If you bring incoming traffic into a higher circuit above outgoing traffic, the conflict that caused this accident is removed. Incoming 1500 AGL, outgoing 1000 AGL. Descent to 1000 AGL is allowed by the controller when he sees space. It's done at other Class D, why not at Moorabbin? Perhaps there is a reason, I'd like to hear it.Having never flown into Moorabbin, I'm a bit shocked that this isn't already the case to be honest, as it already is elsewhere. Sure, in Class D pilots are responsible for their own separation, but that doesn't change the fact that any system that practically induces conflict is extremely problematic!

(I note in ERSA departures are supposed to climb to 2000 or higher, to separate them from arrivals. This doesn't remove the conflict when arrivals at 1000 AGL join a busy circuit at the same altitude, which happened here). Yep... there's still the conflict with the departing aircraft on climb and arriving aircraft on descent - especially when you've got a tired 30 year old box struggling to make 500fpm ROC. Ridiculous!

[A37575]

The instructor (and student) was aware there was traffic (from the radio) but was not told where to look.

The inevitable result of more and more accent on radio calls to alert pilots in the circuit area rather than use their eyes and keep their heads swivelling for other traffic. What happened to airmanship?

[Jack Ranga]

Either 31 or 35 should be bulldozed. (oops, we can't have crosswind landings now can we!) It is a ridiculous set up for a civilian aerodrome. It may have worked as a military aerodrome but it doesn't now.

There are so many systemic and organisational issues tied up with this aerodrome that it's a wonder this type of thing doesn't happen weekly.

[Stationair8]

Back in DCA days at YMMB 35L and 35R for circuits with a max of 8 aircraft in each circuit, 35C for IFR arrivals and departures and a lot more traffic.

[Wallsofchina]

It was also just Mb when we knew where our country and state were

[Old Akro]

Back in the Old Days, 13 / 31 & 17/35 each had 3 runways, plus 04/22 plus an East / West grass strip parallel to Centre Dandenong Rd where the industrial estate is now.

In the " Old Days" there was also a greater diversity of aircraft, some without radio's and no transponders. You probably only have to go back 20 years to have found homebuilts, Tiger Moths, modern era light aircraft, jets and RPT all co-exiting satisfactorily.

I can also recall doing circuits where there were effectively 2 concurrent circuits being flown - inner & outer.

Moorabbin is not the busiest, most complex or most difficult airport in the world. Its simpler than it used to be with less traffic that it has handled in the past. I don't believe there are problems with the facilities, diligence of the controllers or pilots. But, the system and level of resourcing has changed frequently.

[Homesick-Angel]

Top 11 busiest airports by aircraft movements 2009

1 Jandakot Airport Perth, Western Australia JAD 458,750
2 Bankstown Airport Sydney, New South Wales BWU 347,266
3 Moorabbin Airport Melbourne, Victoria MBW 310,550
4 Sydney Airport Sydney, New South Wales SYD 287,480
5 Parafield Airport Adelaide, South Australia PAL 243,522
6 Melbourne Airport Melbourne, Victoria MEL 191,864
7 Brisbane Airport Brisbane, Queensland BNE 179,242
8 Gold Coast Airport Gold Coast, Queensland OOL 133,290
9 Archerfield Airport Brisbane, Queensland --- 132,094
10 Perth Airport Perth, Western Australia PER 118,704
11 Adelaide Airport Adelaide, South Australia ADL 99,950

[Old Akro]

I reckon that ranking would look very similar to that of 1999, 1989, 1979, etc. But the numbers for the secondary airports are decreasing despite a contraction in the number of "metropolitan" airports. Some share of the traffic from Casey, Mooroduc, Lovely Banks, Wallan and other closed airfields has moved to Moorabbin.

[SuperStinker]

Homesick

Looks like those figures come from the ASA website, if so they do not include circuit movements except for the first takeoff and the final landing and overfly or transits are not counted either. Actual numbers at ex GAAP and regional class D's are quite a bit higher than that.

[Starts with P]

SuperStinker,

Not so. A touch and go counts for 2 movements. Those numbers are about right (except for Jandakot; they lie! :})

[Jack Ranga]

Yes, there's quite a bit of fibbing going on at some of these secondary airports ;)

[Sunfish]

YMMB is still very busy, one might call it "Oxford Airport" today. Three landings and Three Go Arounds out of Six approaches saw me give up.

[Awol57]

Those movements probably aren't far off for Jandakot. They come from the paper strips so unless avcharges can't count it had nothing to do with us ATC. I would expect 2010 figures to be down significantly on the 09 figures though.

[Wallsofchina]

The movement peak for Moorabbin was in 1989, 22 years ago. Steady decline since then.

[peterc005]

I fly out of and have a plane parked at YMMB, and have for years.

It is still the busiest airport in VIC by a mile:
http://www.airservicesaustralia.com/projectsservices/reports/movements/finlytd09_10.pdf

My biggest criticism would be the Moorabbin Airport Corp costs, which are not cheap.

Apart from that, it's fantastic. It's much better now having DFO next door because there are a lot more options for shopping and food. Handy being able to leave my teenage sons shopping at DFO while I go off for a quick flight.

The circuit does get busy, but you get used to it and it's not too bad. Anyone with lots of go-arounds must not be reading and anticipating the circuit traffic well.

I average maybe 100 landings year at YMMB (day and night, mainly weekends) and cannot remember the last time I had to go-around.

Only five mins from home and a great place to fly out of.

[Wallsofchina]

Justapplhere, I KNEW someone would ask that. I have a chart of the annual figures sent to me by the Airport Manager three or four years ago, but its buried in thousands of files. At the time residents were getting aggressive about the airport getting too busy, so needing to be closed so retail bulky goods facilities could be built.

I spent an hour or so looking for it so I could quote the traffic figures, but gave up. I'll make another effort and post the figures on here if I can find them.

No doubt about 1989 being the peak year though.

[Sunfish]

Pete:

The circuit does get busy, but you get used to it and it's not too bad. Anyone with lots of go-arounds must not be reading and anticipating the circuit traffic well.

I do as I'm told by the Tower. Two of those go arounds were from Fifty feet because I won't land without a clearance, and the radio was at that moment either monopolized by an aircraft reporting Parkmore and asking for circuits on arrival or someone asking for a glide approach, or a Twin reporting that they were doing asymmetric training.

I eventually broke my own personal limit to Twenty feet and got a "cleared to land , no need to acknowledge" at one stage. The circuits were busy, the radio even busier. It will probably clear up in a week or so when the new Oxford students get a little more experience. At least it keeps the businesses at the airport running.

[Wallsofchina]

Sunfish, your problem is partly fixed by assessing the spacing before turning downwind, then fully fixed after any other ac have joined by setting up the ability to vary speed, with one stage of flap late downwind, then assessing the spacing and adjusting speed before turning base.

If you do that you'll have a minimum number of ac in front of you on final, and enough space to hang on the prop if the person in front of you is slower than you thought.

Part of the excitement of Moorabbin is the skill of fitting in to a busy circuit.

[mcgrath50]

While we are discussing the circuit at Moorabbin, quite a few need to be reminded of the correct spacing for circuits and when to turn downwind. If they were up at Bankstown the circuit would regularly punch CTA there but the MB Tower just lets it get wider and wider.

[mcgrath50]

just,

Agreed, it's up to the PIC to make the choice and I will never follow someone out of my comfort zone, but it does get frustrating asking for early base's to cut in front, or to go around. At my time at YSBK, the tower would remind circuit traffic to tighten things up when it got wide (as they would VCA!). Obviously at MB there CTA step isn't there.

[peterc005]

Sunfish,

you need to anticipate other traffic. Speed up a bit in the circuit if the plane behind you is a bit close, slow down (or go a bit wider) if the one in front is too close.

The tower controllers there are very good and friendly. They are used to having to deal with a busy circuit full of low time students. The controllers do a great job of moving a lot of traffic efficiently.

If the circuit is really busy sometimes controllers will move traffic to the western side of the circuit.

The only times I've had to go around have been when I've been impatient and cut the circuit a bit close.

[CharlieLimaX-Ray]

Glad you guys weren't around when Bib Stilwell's mob operated Learjet 23's in and out of the place in the swinging 70's.

[Jack Ranga]

You wouldn't get away with your Moorabbin A380 circuits at Bankstown.

Quite a bit of 'pilot councelling' goes on at Bankstown :E

[Wallsofchina]

Moorabbin Movements


1962 133752
1963 189228
1964 195689
1965 257900
1966 319806
1967 320000
1968 321251
1969 240574
1970 212068
1971 208268
1972 217972
1973 254022
1974 245554
1975 257076
1976 301304
1977 326704
1978 342056
1979 327113
1980 289333
1981 270419
1982 249300
1983 238200
1984 265900
1985 299000
1986 323000
1987 289000
1988 326000
1989 395000 Peak
1990 386000
1991 357000
1992 338000
1993 328000
1994 339000
1995 347000
1996 350000
1997 363100
1998 295600
1999 259100
2000 256644
2001 253810
2002 253103
2003 235700
2004 229010
2005 264734
2006 233526
2007 310322
2008 351718
2009 310348
2010 242540