Old Fashioned First Class Cradle Seats?

[AV Flyer]

Do any airlines from the UK to USA/Canada still provide the old-fashioned spacious, reclining, leather, cradle seats with foot-rests and excellent personal cabin service and decor in first class?

There seems to be this current modern fashion towards cocooned, plastic-walled, podded, individual privacy and lie-flat to sleep while facing away from the windows concept.

I'm a - wanting to look out the window, not needing to sleep (too noisy anyway), liking to sit next to my partner to chat and canoodle convivially over an excellent quality meal with wine, china, tablecloths, silverware, etc. in a high-ceilinged open cabin with mood lighting and a feeling of some space around me with professional personal cabin service and having the CSM/PSR introduce themselves to us - kind of guy.

Call me old-fashioned - I will stop short of needing to dress for dinner though!

[Avionker]

As you wish....

"You're old fashioned!" :ok:

[wowzz]

How about the QE2?
Slightly slower but gives you lots of time for canoodling!!

[Avionker]

Much slower wowzz. She has been retired for 3 years.

[AV Flyer]

wowzz - Good idea!

It seems to me that the modern idea of first class travel is to wall yourself up in a narrow box with your favourite screen activity as soon as possible and to remain that way for the duration of the flight. Might just as well go in the hold as cargo!

[strake]

I think you are referring to First BA, circa '92?:ok:

However, whilst not quite to the same standard, you might try KLM World Business which is pretty close to your requirement. Recently, I've voted with my feet and happily said farewell to the declined standards of VS and BA out of LHR and taken to KLM via Amsterdam. I have to say I'm impressed. They have made a real effort in a number of areas which are paying off. I fly quite regularly to Toronto and have managed to get myself in 1A or K (for that slightly better view ahead)on a 747 Combi on most occasions. The crew are always welcoming, with a visit from the Captain before departure being a frequent occurrence. After take-off, the CSD (or whatever KLM call them) comes round and says "Hello" in a genuine way. The wine selection is very good and the food is quite frankly, excellent - by far the best I have ever experienced in 30 years of flying. It is served on china with some very avant-garde cutlery. On an outbound flight, I like to sample half a glass of a different accompanying wine with each course. The crew couldn't be more helpful, new glasses and a real effort to assist with the wine selection. On that subject, if you haven't tried Flying Pink Port, give it a go. A Rose port which I liked so much, I bought some in the UK - even my wife drinks it. The in-flight entertainment is as good as any other premium carrier with a wide selection of films etc.
Not so good?
Well, ironically the seating (which you like) is not up to that of the competition in that it is not true "lie-flat" although I find it OK and more preferable to the VS "urinal". I believe they are changing the seating within the next year or so but hopefully not to the cubicle system. Perhaps they might model it on the United product which allows conversation with your neighbour if you want it. Other downside is having to transfer at Schiphol. Depending on where you are flying from, KLM City Flyer connections might not have that many flights a day. However, while the lounge facility in Amsterdam does not compare with VS or BA, it is comfortable, large and has complimentary snacks/soup etc and drinks. It's fine to work from while you wait for your connection. There is free wi-fi connectivity that seems to work OK with all email except AOL - any help from those who know about these things would be gratefully accepted.
Final not so good...in my experience, the KLM ground staff have not (yet?) been on the same customer service course as the flight crew. In my opinion, the KLM website is also slightly under par.
Final good? The price. J Return to most destinations circa £2700 if you plan a bit carefully. The most I've paid was £3400 for a flight to Changsha booked two days before the flight

[TightSlot]

Not only will it be harder to find the "old" style seats in future - it will also be harder to find First Class. A number of airlines are moving away from the concept and becoming Business class only. The market for First Class is dwindling slowly - for many who might normally consider it their home, NetJets has become occasionally viable - others simply don't have the money. The exceptions to all this are, and will probably remain, the Middle-Eastern carriers.

[ChicoG]

The exceptions to all this are, and will probably remain, the Middle-Eastern carriers.

I wouldn't bet money on it. GF cancelled first (they now have "Falcon Gold" and economy); and I've flown a few QR flights that are Business/Economy, although not on all routes.

I think if you fly Emirates you can get your private cabin on the A380 if you're in 1st, but my mates have flown it and they say it's really lonely!

:)

[Lord Bracken]

Try the BA A318 from London City.

Lieflat seats, but arranged in a conventional 2-2 arrangement facing forwards. Very nice to sit in for a day flight and no problem looking out of the window or talking to a travelling companion.

Food is noticeably better than CW on the outbound, and on the return the menu is actually put together from bits of the First Class one (lobster salad etc.)

Service is excellent, very personal (only 32 seats and about 20 pax normally) and addressed by name throughout.

A round of "London City Cocktails" on approach into JFK is a great touch.

[ChicoG]

Food is noticeably better than CW on the outbound, and on the return the menu is actually put together from bits of the First Class one (lobster salad etc.)


Mmmmm, leftovers. Nice.

[VintageKrug]

CWLCY is a great suggestion, though the seats are in fact fully flat, lie flat generally being used to denote the semi-flat variants.

Here is some more info on the service, which is especially cost-effective if you purchase the ticket exAMS at around £2,250:

Club World business flights from London City to New York - A318 - British Airways (http://www.britishairways.com/travel/club-world-london-city/public/en_gb)

The Queen Mary 2 would also be a fun idea. Costs from about £2,500 one way each for their "business class" Princess Grille, and from £3,250 for "first class" Queen's Grille - it's great value when set against a business class airfare, all meals and accommodation for a week:

Queen Mary 2 Luxury Ocean Liner : Luxury Cruise Ships : Cunard Cruise Line - Cunard (http://www.cunard.com/Ships/Queen-Mary-2/)

If you are keen for some reading this Bank Holiday, settle down with this Flyertalk thread which records some of the aircraft interiors which graced the skies above the US in the early days of Jumbo jets:

TWA First Class DEN-JFK 1972 - The Good Old Days - FlyerTalk Forums (http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/trip-reports/180409-twa-first-class-den-jfk-1972-good-old-days.html)

[AV Flyer]

Strake - Spot-on! Thanks for your KLM/AMS recommendation.

LB - The LCY service looks exactly what I had in mind. Interesting to see that BA have only been able to justify it between two of the leading commercial cities on the globe.

ChicoG - Your mates' experiences are exactly what I'm trying to explain and reveal. To me, quality and luxury means space and ambience combined with polite and respectful, but not obsequious, attentive personal service. Not battery farm impersonal isolation.

Tightslot - Very interesting comment which would suggest Europe to Asia & Asia to North America will still be covered but not Europe to North America. Indeed, taking the private travel approach within Europe is still reasonable (just!) but it is interesting to note the merging of First Class into more of a Business Class service/price that you describe means there is no longer a Europe to North America product/service between ~£3k scheduled or £100k+ for a private GV which means spending the kids' inheritances :E.

Bring back Concorde!

VK - Many thanks for the references - those were the days!

[Tmbstory]

The First Class seats in the upper deck on the early 747's of KLM were a dream come true.

Tmb

[AV Flyer]

Tmbstory - Just looked-up a layout for the upstairs KLM 747 "Royal Class" cabin in the 70s.

That's precisely what I'm looking for - along with good service, of course - unfortunately it's beginning to sound like "there's not much call for that today mate"!

[ThatRedHatGirl]

If you fly F with Emirates and are travelling with a friend/partner, try if possible to opt for the center pair of seats. They privacy screen/wall between the two suites can be lowered to allow conversation, as I understand it, then it's more like 2 seats in a private mini cabin. You can also keep the outer doors open if you want to nosy at what everyone else is doing.

Unlike F on other EK aircraft, A380 F pax can avail of the bar/lounge area which looks really fun on a long flight!! :ok:

Lets not start on the shower :E

Emirates A380 First Class | The Emirates A380 | Our Fleet | Flying with Emirates | Emirates (http://www.emirates.com/english/flying/our_fleet/emirates_a380/first_class/first_class.aspx)
(Scroll to bottom to see two suites with screen lowered)

[TSR2]

They privacy screen/wall between the two suites can be lowered to allow conversation

Maybe they want facilities for a bit more than conversation ;)

[ThatRedHatGirl]

Not on EK then....

Don't even think about the shower, what do you think the 'spa attendant' is REALLY there for?? :E

[AV Flyer]

TRHG - Thanks for introducing the EK product offering - it certainly has possibilities - even before getting to the shower/spa!

With the arrival of the A380, together with some creativity by the airlines' interior designers, it certainly has opened-up the choice for first class air travel facilities and the airlines certainly do appear to be competing to offer more for less in their premium cabins.

[MerchantVenturer]

Some of the Emirates Boeing 777s also have suites in First - eight of them in two rows of four with, as TRHG described, the two centre ones in each row being able to be converted into what is effectively a two-person private cabin.

My wife and I flew this way DXB-MEL-DXB with EK last November. The product is excellent and we obtained the flights at not much more than the average EK business class fare via a well-known high street long haul travel specialist.

No bar area or showers on the EK B 777s though which may have been the reason for the competitively-priced fares I suppose.

I note the comments that some airlines are phasing out first class. Our connecting flights BHX/DXB/BHX (also B 777s) had no first class cabin.

[ThatRedHatGirl]

My understanding of it is that EK deploy 3-class a/c on routes where there is a demand for F, and 2-class where there is not (or more demand for J) thus increasing J class seats.

I guess if there was enough interest/queries from travel agents & customers about booking F on that route then they would change the aircraft type. 777 is flown both with and without F.

Interestingly, the demand for seats from Dubai to Jeddah was so great that they added an additonal service- the demand was that it be an A380 and as you can see from their schedule, they put it on. I hear from A380 crew that it is always full to bursting, (Jeddah being around a 2.5hr flight) and yes even in F! :8

Another nice way to sample first class if you are not sure is to book a leg on one of the shorter sectors, say Bangkok to Hong Kong or Auckland to Sydney.

To know what services your flight has, you can actually search on the EK website by flight number and date to see what the seats, service and IFE are like (obviously subject to last minute operational/aircraft changes) but I find this very handy!! Just click 'Services by Flight'

[PAXboy]

We have seen the progression of the original 'Club' to be (sometimes) better than First used to be. Also, there has been a drive for biz people NOT to use F as it looks bad on the expenses report. As Concorde also became.

After some time, VS came along with their J giving F service at J prices.
After some time we saw the arrival of Premium Economy replace J and provide for those private who want a bit more but cannot afford J and those who can no longer afford J (or the expenses problem again).

It seems to me that Y has had the biggest squeeze, although the actual seats ARE certainly better than 30 years ago. And the IFE is several orders of magnitude from the 8mm film on the front wall and using earphgones that were plastic tubes running from two mini-speakers in the arm rest!!!

I see that NZ have made big efforts in their Y and PE and I expect others to follow. Thus the whole cycle will continue and if F disappears, it's really only in name - a very similar level of service and space will be there and, by modern standards I suggest, comparable.

[vctenderness]

BA wanted to ditch First completely a few years ago. The problem was the First cabin on the 747 which is in the nose.

Taking out the fourteen F seats only allowed for one more J seat due to the design of that particular product.

They did remove F from a number of 777 aircraft.

Willie was a lot more optimistic on the future of First and has spent a considerable sum on upgrading this.

I think the F market is going to keep on shrinking and will be absorbed by an ever improving J class.

[Lord Bracken]

Mmmmm, leftovers. Nice.

Ha! Very funny. The menu for JFK-LCY flights (002 and 004) is below. As you can see it is very much a cut above what you would get on a normal ex-East Coast flight on BA (or any ex-US night flight come to think of it).

SUPPER
Salad of Maine lobster with celeriac slaw and eringi truffled mushroom
Fresh seasonal salad served with vinaigrette
Roast breast of duck, Roquefort and sweet potato cake with lingonberry sauce
Warm Scotch egg, aubergine and mango chutney with mixed salad leaves
Cheese manciotti with shimeji mushroom sauce
Chocolate and raspberry cake
Goat's cheese, Gouda and 2-year aged Cheddar served with quince jelly
A selection of fruit
Alternatively may we suggest hot chocolate with warm chocolate chip cookies

BREAKFAST

Starters
Chilled fruit juice
An energising fruit smoothie
Fresh seasonal fruit
Special K cereal with strawberries

Bakery
Warm bacon roll served with tomato ketchup
A selection of warm breads and breakfast pastries

City Breakfast

If you wish to maximise your sleep during the night, we won't wake you up if we see you are still sleeping soundly. When you do wake up, we have our City Breakfast option available up until 20 minutes before landing, which you can eat on descent or on your journey into the office.

Chilled fruit juice
Fresh fruit
Breakfast pastries

[WHBM]

Just to add that the division between F C and Y demand varies from route to route (and also, with day of week and proximity to holidays etc). Seating configurations of a "one size fits all" type can lead to considerable inefficiencies on certain routes. And if you start op-upgrading your Golds in Y to balance the seating demand, the Golds soon catch on and never pay for a premium seat (leading to the extreme problem that US domestic carriers have got into).

For example, from London to New York, prime Transatlantic destination in the USA, there is extensive demand for both F and C. To Toronto, the prime destination in Canada, there is very little demand for any premium class service, and never has been (even back in the 1960s BOAC had a small subfleet of all-economy 707s used to Toronto). So if the fleet is large enough then you can justify more than one configuration on a type.

The Gulf carriers, surprisingly, were early adopters of this multi-configuration approach, as they bought widebodies for Europe (normal spread of demand) and to India etc (hardly any premium demand).

[vctenderness]

No premium demand to India!!!!!

Bombay was in BA's top five First Class earners for years.

I think it was JFK, Joburg, Bombay, San Francisco and LA in that order.

There has been a dip but India is one of the highest earning areas of the world now.

[SLF3]

I think he means from the Gulf to India - very few migrant workers travel business class.